Okay I'm in the comic store the other day and see the new Avengers versus Xmen comic. Although I haven't followed either comic line since the mid 90's I figured I'd give it a try. I guess I've mostly lost interest in Marvel characters because of the horrible story lines and having characters do things that seem against there nature. I did dabble in the Civil War but never followed it seriously.
I have some questions that I thought maybe you good people could help me with.
Who is "Hope" and what happened to Rachel?
Is Jean Grey dead again?
I thought they were calling Wolverine "James" (which I hated). Now Captain America calls him Logan and he's running the school for gifted students?
Thanks!
|
Hope is Cable's foster daughter. She is sort of a Mutant Messiah who was the first mutant born since the Scarlet Witch wiped out the majority of mutants in an event that became known as Decimation. Rachel spent some time with the Starjammers along with Havok and Polaris and is currently a teacher at Wolverine's school.
Jean is dead again and has remained so for quite a long time now. She died around 2004 which means she has been dead for 8 years. I think that is the longest period that she has remained dead. However, there are rumors that she will come back at some point and that Hope and the Phoenix Force will play a role in her resurrection.
Wolverine founded the Jean Grey School of Higher Learning because he and Cyclops had a falling out. Scott has become much more militant over the last few years, in many ways becoming like Magneto was in the early days, and Wolverine grew disgusted with Scott treating young mutants as soldiers rather than as students. About half of the X-Men agreed with Wolverine and left to form a school to teach young mutants to live their lives successfully rather than train them to be soldiers. The rest of the X-Men stayed with Scott thus setting up a split in the X-Men that mirrors the Xavier/Magneto split that occurred prior to the founding of the X-Men.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So when did Logan become the moral one?
If anyone knows how hard life can be for a mutant on his own, it's Logan. He fights so the children don't have to.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
So when did Logan become the moral one?
Long, somewhat spoilerish.
After this, Wolverine really becomes protective of the mutant kids.
Aside, perhaps the biggest mood whiplash is when the members of the RRH end up in hell, happy that despite the torment, they're reunited with their loved ones. Well except for the one kid, who's left looking around asking for his mom...
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
Hope's power is she can duplicate the power of any mutant she's in proximity to, and more than one at a time. She also has a) some connection to the Phoenix Force and b) an origin similar to Maddie Pryor's (redhead, in Alaska, orphan.)
There's been a plot point for a while that the Phoenix is gathering all its fragments. Rachel's lost her connection (thinking it was Jean calling them home), and the Cuckoos have lost the fragments they were keeping in their diamond hearts.
Scott's hoping the Phoenix Force can undo Wanda's super spell. (I'm pretty sure from Children's Crusade and Age of Apocalypse comics that Wanda can restore a depowered mutant's powers, but only in close proximity, and one or two at a time. She restored Rictor's powers, and in AoA Jean tried to trigger a clone of Wanda to do the 'no more mutants' thing, but it only worked in like a 30' radius, so it depowered the clone, alt-Jean (severing her connection to the Phoenix force) and alt-Sabertooth (thus killing my interest in the book)) The Avengers are afraid of a) The Phoenix wiping out the planet and b) What the Shi'ar and other races would do if it takes another Human host. (Rachel is the last Grey on earth, the Shi'ar having killed every other relative of Jean to make sure the Phoenix didn't take another host.)
Further aside, we've seen a 'what if' where Wanda said "No more powers" and a dystopia where she said "No more Humans."
So when did Logan become the moral one?
I've spent the past few weeks reading a lot of Claremont-era X-Men. One of the bigger points of dissonance is how while still an unapologetic killer, Logan is far from the snarling 90s psychopath he devolved into. He developed from sort of a prototypical version of that in the 70s into something much closer to an old soldier sort. He still sells himself as the merciless killing machine, but very obviously is not that guy and doesn't want to be that guy.
At the same time the rest of the team was shedding its less murderous members and those who remained skewed more and more heavily pragmatic and ruthless. Until the survivors all jumped into the Siege Perilous fairly randomly* and the status quo reset, anyway.
I have the strong impression that this isn't how the plot was intended to turn out. There's a general downward spiral to the Oz-era stories where the team is more and more battered and various members quit, leave, or die almost at random. But the diving into the Siege really comes out of the blue and Psylocke clearly mind controls at least one person and probably the whole team into it. Where did she get such a desire to use the thing? And since when was she a precognitive? I don't recall that from any of her appearances prior to foreshadowing for this plot and I don't think it recurs afterwards.
This is around the time that heavy crossovers come more into vogue and there's an editorial changeover around the same time. I'm not one to blame the editors for everything I don't like in comics, but the situation has the feel plans changing very abruptly.
Also topic:
Are the Young Avengers in A vs. X at all?
It would make sense that they are since it is supposed to tie up a number of different story lines, including the Children's Crusade but there has not been any official mention that I can find.
That figures. :(
I understand Marvel wants to reserve the characters to the original writer, who does such a wonderful job with them, but comic writing is obviously not his priority. At some point they either drop into limbo or someone else starts writing them. I adore those kids; it sucks that they get so little exposure.
|
|
It does suck that they are getting left behind. When the final page of Children's Crusade was Cap saying that Hulkling, Wiccan, and Speed were all Avengers I was hoping that they be written into the cast of one of the Avengers titles. I mean we are up to four if I am counting right (Avengers, Might Avengers, Secret Avengers, Avengers Assemble) not to mention that Avengers Academy is pretty much tailor made for the characters. But instead they are cramming in every other teen hero that they can into that title and left the best characters for the book by the way side. I mean seriously, do they really think that the kid from "Sentinel" has more fans than the Young Avengers?
Yeah and I'm more than pissed off that Patriot was just kinda tossed by the wayside as a character. I mean WTF?!? Give him to Brubaker in the Cap comic or send him to Gage in Avengers Academy. But he just basically gives up and goes home? Really?
UGH.
Also? I stand with Cyclops on this one.
At some point you realize the people are NEVER going to accept you. Time to stop seeking acceptance and understanding and let them know that there will be consequences for aggression against that minority.
I understand where Wolvering is coming from as well in wanting to protect the kids but better to have them be properly prepared for a world that's going to hate them than think in anyway they are going to be accepted and looked at as equals.
I get the Avengers are trying to prevent complete disaster. I've been reading the Avengers books for over the past 8-9 years since Bendis took over and love them. I've only started reading Xbooks again and then only Uncanny X-Force and Wolverine and the X-Men. But I've got to side with the X-Men on this one.
The other side (the Majority) is ALWAYS going to find a way to make you look like a villain. At some point you stop caring and stop trying to seek a middle ground and it really does become US or THEM. So yeah, go Team Cyclops.
I'd be on cykes side in this if the writers (who all apparently still hate hate cyclops.) didn't give him and wolverine a personality switch. Cyke hasn't been cyke in many, many, many years.
Also? I stand with Cyclops on this one.
At some point you realize the people are NEVER going to accept you. Time to stop seeking acceptance and understanding and let them know that there will be consequences for aggression against that minority.
I understand where Wolvering is coming from as well in wanting to protect the kids but better to have them be properly prepared for a world that's going to hate them than think in anyway they are going to be accepted and looked at as equals.
I get the Avengers are trying to prevent complete disaster. I've been reading the Avengers books for over the past 8-9 years since Bendis took over and love them. I've only started reading Xbooks again and then only Uncanny X-Force and Wolverine and the X-Men. But I've got to side with the X-Men on this one.
The other side (the Majority) is ALWAYS going to find a way to make you look like a villain. At some point you stop caring and stop trying to seek a middle ground and it really does become US or THEM. So yeah, go Team Cyclops.
I'd be on cykes side in this if the writers (who all apparently still hate hate cyclops.) didn't give him and wolverine a personality switch. Cyke hasn't been cyke in many, many, many years.Also? I stand with Cyclops on this one.
At some point you realize the people are NEVER going to accept you. Time to stop seeking acceptance and understanding and let them know that there will be consequences for aggression against that minority.
I understand where Wolvering is coming from as well in wanting to protect the kids but better to have them be properly prepared for a world that's going to hate them than think in anyway they are going to be accepted and looked at as equals.
I get the Avengers are trying to prevent complete disaster. I've been reading the Avengers books for over the past 8-9 years since Bendis took over and love them. I've only started reading Xbooks again and then only Uncanny X-Force and Wolverine and the X-Men. But I've got to side with the X-Men on this one.
The other side (the Majority) is ALWAYS going to find a way to make you look like a villain. At some point you stop caring and stop trying to seek a middle ground and it really does become US or THEM. So yeah, go Team Cyclops.
See I dont see the writers as hating Cyclops I guess it's easier for me to accept the fact that due to all that crap that's happend to X-men and Mutants over the past 20 years that he's changed his point of view somewhat. That his interpretation of the dream is a bit different that Xavier's now and is somewhere between Xaviers nonaggression and Magneto's Militancy.
And I agree with that and it kinda reflects my own perspective. I think that MLK's dream is a joke and while the Civil Rights movement was a watershed moment in American History Things really havent changed that much nor has the perception of black people in this country. Do I see a little more acceptance? Yes. but that's only on the surface. I've always looked at the X-men and mutants through the prism of the Civil Rights movement (with Xavier = MLK and Magneto = Malcolm X (to an extent)). I know these days it's Gay rights that's most most associated with mutants and it's timely and very relevant.
I just felt I needed to flesh out a little bit where I was coming from in my support of Cyclops. I'm not looking for a discussion or a debate about my views as it usually deteriorates into people telling me that I'm wrong for feeling the way that I do. Being that those people haven t lived my life and dont deal with what I have to deal with and have dealt with for 40 years I dont feel the need to take them seriously.
But yeah, anyway Go team Cyclops.
You are not wrong for feeling different from me, at least not according to what I've seen so far. If you think xavier was too naive and magneto was too violent, then that's your opinion and you've a right to it.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah and I'm more than pissed off that Patriot was just kinda tossed by the wayside as a character. I mean WTF?!? Give him to Brubaker in the Cap comic or send him to Gage in Avengers Academy. But he just basically gives up and goes home? Really?
UGH.
Yeah, Patriot would be a good partner for Cap, particularly since Falcon is with the Heroes For Hire (at least last time I checked), Nomad is gone, and Winter Soldier is off doing the whole black ops thing. I think Cap works best as a mentor to a young hero or working with a partner and Patriot is a great candidate to fill one of those roles.
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
I lost all respect for Scott when he abandoned his pregnant wife for Jean. *shrug*
I also think a) Storm was right in her reason for staying. (Deliciously lampshaded when she asked in X-men 1 "Raise your hand if you've never been a super villian... Scott, are you sure you should raise your hand?") and b) the Avengers are right to be concerned. It really does appear that his plan is to use/coerce/persuade the Phoenix Force to turn the X-gene back on. There's a definate lack of 'plan B' there.
As much as I like PAD, he and I disagree about the schism (He's said he'd join Scott's Ghetto, I'd be at the Jean Grey School myself). I'm with Steve and Hank (and so far, Logan) on this one.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Brubaker could make an amazing story with Eli in it. I mean we are talking about a teenager who is literally the only person who could fill Cap's shoes. Other people can wear the cowl, carry the shield, and keep the legacy alive, but IIRC Eli is the only living person besides Cap to have the super soldier serum and not be old enough to be Eli's grandpa. In fact as near as I can tell the only other living person with the super soldier serum is Eli's grandpa. Being a hero is literally in his blood and a great story could be Eli coming to this realization and seeking Cap out for training. Or Eli could discover that pretty much everyone who has ever used the super soldier serum goes nuts, turns evil, or both, except Cap and Isiah Bradley. So Eli starts working with Cap in the hopes that Cap can teach him how to be a hero or if worse comes to worse and he does turn evil then Cap will be there to stop him before he does something horrible.
|
So when did Logan become the moral one?Long, somewhat spoilerish.
** spoiler omitted **
Matthew -
I've been out of comics since the mid-90's (although I still have my entire collection) and was a huge X-Men fan, but I'm obviously out of touch. I have to say though, that story line you spoilered is about the dumbest thing that I've heard from comics in a long time and makes me glad I stopped paying attention to them in college. (Obviously nothing against you, but I'm glad you posted the spoiler because it validates my feelings that comics aren't nearly as good as they were when I collected. Except Mouse Guard. I love me some Mouse Guard.)
-Skeld
I lost all respect for Scott when he abandoned his pregnant wife for Jean. *shrug*
I also think a) Storm was right in her reason for staying. (Deliciously lampshaded when she asked in X-men 1 "Raise your hand if you've never been a super villian... Scott, are you sure you should raise your hand?") and b) the Avengers are right to be concerned. It really does appear that his plan is to use/coerce/persuade the Phoenix Force to turn the X-gene back on. There's a definate lack of 'plan B' there.
As much as I like PAD, he and I disagree about the schism (He's said he'd join Scott's Ghetto, I'd be at the Jean Grey School myself). I'm with Steve and Hank (and so far, Logan) on this one.
I implore you to remember that that wasn't exactly Cyclops' idea, but that of the one writer who hated the new X-Men/wanted to bring the old X-Men back at *any* cost.
I lost all respect for Scott when he abandoned his pregnant wife for Jean. *shrug*There are two other ways of looking at that.
The first is based on what was revealed about the wife afterwards. She was a construct created solely to have a child by him, who manipulated him being kicked out of the X-Men via powers she kept hidden for years, and other assorted stuff/nonsense.
Or the story behind it all, which involves Claremont getting angry, and the writers of X-factor being forbidden from using Madelyne Pryor as a character, leaving the story in limbo for muchy longer than originally planned.
Essentially, this.
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
Thank you both for your posts. It's still something that annoyed me. I liked Maddie, tough normal able to hold her own. (I'll admit I hope Dani Moonstar doesn't get her powers back for similar reasons). It really made me take a second look at Alex though.
From what I've heard/seen, the Phoenix is destroying planets on its way to earth. Still on the Avengers' side (though I think they're at a loss on what to do if/when the firebird reaches earth. Put Hope in 'protective custody'? Really? How about "Get Rachel and Hope to sit down and talk." Because if the Phoenix bonds with her, nothing can hold her.
"It appears your machines have limits, pity I have none." Maddie Pryor, possessing the Phoenix force.
(Aside, that said, if Dr. Strange really was dumb enough to chase Illyana into Limbo, I hope she kicks his goatee right off his face.)
(Aside, that said, if Dr. Strange really was dumb enough to chase Illyana into Limbo, I hope she kicks his goatee right off his face.)
Wait, I know that he's not the Sorcerer Supreme any more and no longer has the Eye of Agamotto but he still should be able to handle Illyana Rasputin with EASE. He's defeated the InBetweener, Baron Mordo, Shuma Gurath and Dormammu for pete's sake.
Illyana Rasputin should be an itch compared to those guys.
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
I'll disagree. Illyana *is* the Sorcerer supreme of Limbo, and she's beat other wizards there (Forge comes to mind). She should kick his butt. I'm sure she'll get Jobbed, but between the soulsword breaking his spells, her own magic, and Cerebu- er S'ym and Nast'rih, it should be one sided.
I'll disagree. Illyana *is* the Sorcerer supreme of Limbo, and she's beat other wizards there (Forge comes to mind). She should kick his butt. I'm sure she'll get Jobbed, but between the soulsword breaking his spells, her own magic, and Cerebu- er S'ym and Nast'rih, it should be one sided.
I disagree to a point. I think it would be a fight that strange could win, but it wouldn't be easy by any means. He'd have to draw upon his experience and skills as being a former sorcerer supreme of earth to beat magik in her realm. He'll probably win, but he won't be pimp walking off her plane so much as limping.
I'll disagree. Illyana *is* the Sorcerer supreme of Limbo, and she's beat other wizards there (Forge comes to mind). She should kick his butt. I'm sure she'll get Jobbed, but between the soulsword breaking his spells, her own magic, and Cerebu- er S'ym and Nast'rih, it should be one sided.
Wait...since when is Forge spoken of on the same level as Dr. Strange? If you'd said that she beat...I dont know Baron Mordo or Dr. Doom or even Damien Hellstrom, that might be impressive but Forge? That's like saying she beat Talisman or Shaman from Alpha Flight.
I get it, you dont think much of Dr. Strange, but d00d has fought and BEAT some heavy hitters AND their minions. This is the guy who at the end of Hulk #300 shows up after everyone else has gotten their butts kicked by the Hulk simply opens up a portal to another dimension as was like "Okay, off you go there Hulky..." His experience as Sorcerer Supreme of Earth (which it seems everyone wants to invade...how many entities are trying to invade Limbo again? LOL.) alone should be enough to be able to handle Illyana Rasputin.
She might be powerful but Strange has been doing it ALOT longer, literally since before she was born.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
....aaaaaaand here we are talking about who would beat who in a fight.
It's like I'm 12 years old again. LOL.
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
Thank you both for your posts. It's still something that annoyed me. I liked Maddie, tough normal able to hold her own. (I'll admit I hope Dani Moonstar doesn't get her powers back for similar reasons). It really made me take a second look at Alex though.Unfortunately, I had foolishly thought I'd outgrown comics for several years, and was introduced to Maddie via X-Factor #1. The version of her there was a screeching harridan from whom I would advise any of my friends to run away from, and I can understand Claremont's anger at the depiction. That said, going back and reading the Dark Pheonix Saga and the later comics, I greatly preferred Lee Forrester, and picked up a dislike of "substitute-Jean" in all forms, the current Emma Frost included. Either bring her back or move on completely, Marvel.
I recall reading (I don't remember where) that Claremont said his idea was that Maddie was exactly what it said on the tin, a woman who looked a lot like Jean. His thought was that Scott would marry her and retire. He (and other writers) would use him for guest stars, but basically it was allowing the character to 'grow up'. She was clearly human in the X-men vs Alpha Flight series.
Plus my first exposure to Maddie was in Uncanny, when she was being chased by Marauders, the X-men were protecting her, and Scott was nowhere to be found.
Okay next round of questions: Are the X-men currently on that island that rose from the deep (very Lovecraftian) in the ocean? Do they still have a hidden base in Australia?
It appears Beast is going to side with the Avengers... Why? Has the Beast returned from the cat-like visage (which I can not stand!) to his more ape-like visage?
Who are Hope's parents?
What is going on with Excalibur, X-Force, and the New Mutants?
From the look on the cover of issue 1 the Avengers roster looks a lot more deadly than the X-men. Not trying to start a flame war, just calling it like I see it.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Utopia was atually built from the ruins of Magneto's old base Asteroid M. As far as I know the base in the Outback is no longer around. Hank quit the X-Men after Nightcrawler's death. He felt that Scott had gotten too militant and reckless and that it had cost Kurt his life. From the Images I have seen it doesn't appear that Hank has returned to his more simian appearance. As far as I know Hope's parents were just some random people with no connection to the X-Men at all. Excaliber has gone the way of the dodo, X-Force is now a black ops team led by Wolverine who's job is to kill the people who need killing and I can't speak for New Mutants.
X-Force is now a black ops team led by Wolverine who's job is to kill the people who need killing and I can't speak for New Mutants.
I for the past 8-10 years I've been reading the Avengers titles and have for the most part with a few exceptions (Deadly Genesis, Fall of the Shi'ar Empire - both by Brubaker) have stayed away from the X-corner of the Marvel universe simply because there are STILL way too many X-men related titles.
That being said I've recently delved into the x-universe again with Uncanny X-Force and Wolverine and the X-Men. Uncanny X-Force is probably the best X book that I've read in a good long time. W and the X-men is also right up there with a great blend of humor and action.
P.S. I didnt know that about Utopia. That's actually kind of cool. In our old Marvel Supers campaign back in the day my PC's launched several failed attacks on Asteroid M to bring in Magneto but also to claim it for themselves.
Always bet on James beating dick.........................Batman would beat both of themBut Steve would beat Bruce, he admitted it. :-)
Now whether James would beat Dick... my money's on James. :-)
Didn't even know James was gay.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
|
My favorite "beat the Hulk" story is the one in which Alex/Havok actually did this.....aaaaaaand here we are talking about who would beat who in a fight.
It's like I'm 12 years old again. LOL.
I don't recall the book for sure, though I think it was in the Exiles, but they encountered some reality's Sue Storm and somehow the Hulk came up in conversation (don't remember details now), and someone said basically "Yeah, our Invisible Woman beat the Hulk once, and she NEVER SHUTS UP ABOUT IT." :)
|
By the way, did anyone else think it was funny that Cap only got a B+ on his impromptu Danger Room Exam when he went to recruit Wolverine in the latest "Wolverine and the X-Men?"
I just like how he's the one TO recruit Wolverine where as in the first New Avengers book he was originally against the idea and Tony had to talk him into it.