Blame the Norwegians.I thought those were from Norway?
A lot of them moved to Wisconsin in the mid to late 19th century.
Always blame Norway!
The ACLU and four Wisconsin couples (two in Milwaukee, one in Eau Claire and one in Madison) filed a lawsuit today to challenge the state's same-sex marriage ban.That should be interesting to watch. Wisconsin is a weird state politically.
Sometimes, it seems like it's the purplest state there is.
Edit to add: For those outside the U.S., red state = conservative or Republican (e.g. Oklahoma), blue state = liberal or Democrat (e.g. Massachusetts) , purple state = a blend of the two (swing states).
Sometimes, it seems like it's the purplest state there is.The ACLU and four Wisconsin couples (two in Milwaukee, one in Eau Claire and one in Madison) filed a lawsuit today to challenge the state's same-sex marriage ban.That should be interesting to watch. Wisconsin is a weird state politically.
Wanna take bets on whether or not it'll hit the U.S. Supreme Court?
Wanna take bets on whether or not it'll hit the U.S. Supreme Court?Sometimes, it seems like it's the purplest state there is.The ACLU and four Wisconsin couples (two in Milwaukee, one in Eau Claire and one in Madison) filed a lawsuit today to challenge the state's same-sex marriage ban.That should be interesting to watch. Wisconsin is a weird state politically.
I'd guess one of the other states where it's being contested in the courts will get there first. This case is just getting started.
I suspect the others won't, but that's just a gut feeling I have. No evidence for it.
In any case, it would be interesting to see if the Supreme Court is finally ready to take a firm stance. They have struck down gay marriage bans, but made every effort to avoid ruling gay marriage Constitutional. That dichotomy cannot last forever, and part of me fears what they may say if forced into a corner.
That dichotomy cannot last forever
That's for certain.
I suspect the others won't, but that's just a gut feeling I have. No evidence for it.
In any case, it would be interesting to see if the Supreme Court is finally ready to take a firm stance. They have struck down gay marriage bans, but made every effort to avoid ruling gay marriage Constitutional. That dichotomy cannot last forever, and part of me fears what they may say if forced into a corner.
That's not an accident. The judiciary is very much the "the government cannot" branch while the legislature is the "the government shall" branch.
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Always blame Norway!
We always do. Sometimes Sweden too.
SincerelyDenmark. :-p
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Curious, and my sincere apologies if this comes off as a crude question, but in RL transitioning requires surgeries, chemicals, and all manner of other stuff I know too little of to try and talk about, but mostly it requires time. Whereas in Fantasy like Golarion we have things like the Belt of the Unicorn which makes the transition almost instantaneous. So I was curious as to whether those of you who have transitioned or are now transitioning would you have preferred the instantaneous transition or would you still stay with the eventual transition?
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A lot of them moved to Wisconsin in the mid to late 19th century.Blame the Norwegians.I thought those were from Norway?
Actually, we're mostly German, Irish and Polish. The Norse are mostly in Minnesota.
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Must not make AM ROYAL WE alias...
Really must not make Mythic AM ROYAL WE alias...
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Dooo eeet! >:D
Actually, we're mostly German, Irish and Polish. The Norse are mostly in Minnesota.A lot of them moved to Wisconsin in the mid to late 19th century.Blame the Norwegians.I thought those were from Norway?Ah, the Royal We, how I have missed thee.
:3
Though I am prone to speaking of myself in the collective, that "we" was actually intended to refer to Wisconsinites in general.
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Though I am prone to speaking of myself in the collective, that "we" was actually intended to refer to Wisconsinites in general.Actually, we're mostly German, Irish and Polish. The Norse are mostly in Minnesota.A lot of them moved to Wisconsin in the mid to late 19th century.Blame the Norwegians.I thought those were from Norway?Ah, the Royal We, how I have missed thee.
:3
Aren't you guys famous for eating cheese? Or did I imagine that?
I'm from Yorkshire, and the stereotype of flat cap wearing, tripe and black pudding eaters is pervasive but inaccurate, tha' kno's.
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Curious, and my sincere apologies if this comes off as a crude question, but in RL transitioning requires surgeries, chemicals, and all manner of other stuff I know too little of to try and talk about, but mostly it requires time. Whereas in Fantasy like Golarion we have things like the Belt of the Unicorn which makes the transition almost instantaneous. So I was curious as to whether those of you who have transitioned or are now transitioning would you have preferred the instantaneous transition or would you still stay with the eventual transition?
I honestly am not sure why anyone would want to live with the awkward in between stages. Nor the pain of surgery nor it's somewhat lackluster results. There is a lot to learn on your way through it but I'm not entirely sure it couldn't be learned over time without that. In some ways everything still seems very fast. Your culture changes once strangers start to see you differently than before, especially as those strangers become acquaintances, friends, or coworkers. I guess you could say that it builds character. The completeness of the transformation via Belt of the Unicorn would have to be much more satisfactory but there is a wisdom learned in the natural completion of things as well. I guess the ideal would be something that brought you more to a neutral state and then ran you through your new puberty in the fullness of time. Does that make sense?
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Curious, and my sincere apologies if this comes off as a crude question, but in RL transitioning requires surgeries, chemicals, and all manner of other stuff I know too little of to try and talk about, but mostly it requires time. Whereas in Fantasy like Golarion we have things like the Belt of the Unicorn which makes the transition almost instantaneous. So I was curious as to whether those of you who have transitioned or are now transitioning would you have preferred the instantaneous transition or would you still stay with the eventual transition?
As nice as it would be to find a magic item and have everything instantly change, I honestly think a gradual transition is healthier. You seriously do not realize how radically different society treats males and females (even effeminate males and masculine females) until you've experienced both, and there's a period of culture shock. I also think a gradual process is healthier because it gives you time to wade through a lot of social BS you gather over a lifetime, and figure out what about your identity is genuine what what exists because you've always been taught it should be there.
After looking back at all my story ideas and seeing just how many main characters I try to write up are female (especially when I seem to take a lot more time on developing them than I am on my male characters), I feel even more aware of my gender confusion. Really kind of a shame it's pretty much a taboo subject around everyone outside this forum that I interact with.
I'm from Yorkshire, and the stereotype of flat cap wearing, tripe and black pudding eaters is pervasive but inaccurate, tha' kno's.
'E, by gum, we has oursself a Yorkshire lad here!
Fascinating.
Actually, we're mostly German, Irish and Polish. The Norse are mostly in Minnesota.A lot of them moved to Wisconsin in the mid to late 19th century.Blame the Norwegians.I thought those were from Norway?Ah, the Royal We, how I have missed thee.
:3
Backs up stuff I learned in my Werewolf the Apocalypse games.
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Curious, and my sincere apologies if this comes off as a crude question, but in RL transitioning requires surgeries, chemicals, and all manner of other stuff I know too little of to try and talk about, but mostly it requires time. Whereas in Fantasy like Golarion we have things like the Belt of the Unicorn which makes the transition almost instantaneous. So I was curious as to whether those of you who have transitioned or are now transitioning would you have preferred the instantaneous transition or would you still stay with the eventual transition?
Honestly, I’m not sure. I’m just starting my transition, and I’m finding it useful to think of it as a second puberty, which is about as much fun as it sounds. As Ms. Frasier mentioned, there’s quite a bit of introspection to do as one’s body changes and one sorts through the core of one’s identity and social ideas about what makes a woman or a man, the latter of which one might accept or reject on a case-by-case basis.
A large part of what I’m working on now is figuring out the contours of my own femininity. For example, I’m a comfortable shoes sort of girl. Will I muck about with heels eventually, though, to decide if I’m also comfortable with them, as many young women do? Probably. At this point, I don’t see much room in my life for cosmetics, and so on and so forth… And putting all this together still doesn’t address how I’m going to deal with how society decides to read my take on femininity – visibly trans? butch/femme? completely unremarkable?
An instantaneous transition would relieve some sources of anxiety, but in itself it wouldn’t affect how society treats females and males differently and how one might respond to that. For instance, my previous examples were extremely physical, but I also find myself thinking about what it means to move in a ladylike fashion, if you like, écriture féminine, and all the other situations in which a misstep might earn a sneer at the party. I can imagine that suddenly appearing as normatively gendered in the body might intensify the expectations for normative socialization, even if that’s not particularly reasonable. The tyrant doesn’t care how you got to be a woman or a man, but, darn it, you will behave like a proper lady or gentleman in their realm. :) That’s part of why I find a setting like Golarion, where gender roles are generally not as strict as they historically have been in the real world, so fascinating: I imagine that might make it a bit easier for the residents to deal with the possibilities of magic for transition.
On the other hand, since it is so personal I suppose it could vary a great deal from individual to individual. Maybe the first serious occasion one has to wear a party frock, say, wouldn’t be much less harrowing for an extremely nervous young cis person as opposed to a magically transitioned person with enough aplomb. That’s an extremely optimistic point of view, though, and on balance I would stick with a gradual transition myself, I think. However, if we’re taking orders for magic items, something to grant perfect (or at least reasonable) pitch and a morale bonus for practicing would not go amiss. I’m going to have to work on my vocal range soon, and I’m not the sort of person who can really look forward to it.
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After looking back at all my story ideas and seeing just how many main characters I try to write up are female (especially when I seem to take a lot more time on developing them than I am on my male characters), I feel even more aware of my gender confusion. Really kind of a shame it's pretty much a taboo subject around everyone outside this forum that I interact with.
There are places to discuss gender issues safely. The most obvious is with a therapist with some experience handling gender dysphoria. If money is tight, there are also support groups and social groups for people grappling with a variety of gender issues. Online there's also a very active community on tumblr covering every niche of gender variation. Heck, one of my first resources was an online mailing list back in 1999.
Just be careful and be safe.
Curious, and my sincere apologies if this comes off as a crude question, but in RL transitioning requires surgeries, chemicals, and all manner of other stuff I know too little of to try and talk about, but mostly it requires time. Whereas in Fantasy like Golarion we have things like the Belt of the Unicorn which makes the transition almost instantaneous. So I was curious as to whether those of you who have transitioned or are now transitioning would you have preferred the instantaneous transition or would you still stay with the eventual transition?
My first instinct was to say "Instantaneous, please!" But Lissa, Crystal and Qunnessaa all make very good, convincing points, so I'll agree with them. The learning process and accumulation of experience is useful (even if it usually feels like I'm on the slow experience track, so to speak).
If it was gradual but without the attendant health risks, and it eliminated the need for electrolysis, I'd be up for that. Maybe adjusted bone structure as well.
However, if we’re taking orders for magic items, something to grant perfect (or at least reasonable) pitch and a morale bonus for practicing would not go amiss. I’m going to have to work on my vocal range soon, and I’m not the sort of person who can really look forward to it.
I hear that. Right now, my voice is my biggest source of dysphoria, particularly given how much speaking I have to do for work. Just started vocal therapy. I know not to expect miracles, and that it'll be a lot of work, but I'm hoping for at least some improvement, and hoping that I'll achieve a voice I'm satisfied with. A magic item to help with that would be most welcome.
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Right now, my voice is my biggest source of dysphoria, particularly given how much speaking I have to do for work. Just started vocal therapy. I know not to expect miracles, and that it'll be a lot of work, but I'm hoping for at least some improvement, and hoping that I'll achieve a voice I'm satisfied with. A magic item to help with that would be most welcome.
It is usually one of the more difficult bits to deal with, but, it can be done with a lot of hard work. I'm living proof. ^_^ My voice isn't exactly melodious but noone ever gets my gender wrong these days and I did it alone and without a voice coach so I'm sure you'll get there.
After looking back at all my story ideas and seeing just how many main characters I try to write up are female (especially when I seem to take a lot more time on developing them than I am on my male characters), I feel even more aware of my gender confusion. Really kind of a shame it's pretty much a taboo subject around everyone outside this forum that I interact with.
Seconding what Crystal said. You might also try to do some reading on the subject. One that I would recommend is a book called "Gender Outlaws: The Next Generation." It contains a number of short pieces by people of a wide variety of gender identities. Could be useful if you're trying to figure out your own issues.
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It is usually one of the more difficult bits to deal with, but, it can be done with a lot of hard work. I'm living proof. ^_^ My voice isn't exactly melodious but noone ever gets my gender wrong these days and I did it alone and without a voice coach so I'm sure you'll get there.
Thanks, that's reassuring. I have a lot of confidence in my therapist and the program I'm in - it's in one of the departments at UW-Madison. In the meantime, this is the first semester I'm teaching since coming out to my students, and I find that whenever I lecture, I fall back into my old, very masculine teaching voice. Fortunately, my students have been cool about it.
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It is usually one of the more difficult bits to deal with, but, it can be done with a lot of hard work. I'm living proof. ^_^ My voice isn't exactly melodious but noone ever gets my gender wrong these days and I did it alone and without a voice coach so I'm sure you'll get there.Thanks, that's reassuring. I have a lot of confidence in my therapist and the program I'm in - it's in one of the departments at UW-Madison. In the meantime, this is the first semester I'm teaching since coming out to my students, and I find that whenever I lecture, I fall back into my old, very masculine teaching voice. Fortunately, my students have been cool about it.
It's just practice really. I spent every morning for a few months finding my base tone and pushing it up a half step. And then learning the more up and down cadence until that was second nature and then learning to talk with your hands came along pretty quickly after that.
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After looking back at all my story ideas and seeing just how many main characters I try to write up are female (especially when I seem to take a lot more time on developing them than I am on my male characters), I feel even more aware of my gender confusion. Really kind of a shame it's pretty much a taboo subject around everyone outside this forum that I interact with.
Just don't let anyone push you into a place you don't want to be. =)
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It's just practice really. I spent every morning for a few months finding my base tone and pushing it up a half step. And then learning the more up and down cadence until that was second nature and then learning to talk with your hands came along pretty quickly after that.
And now we've entered the part of every trans conversation where I sit in awkward silence.
It's just practice really. I spent every morning for a few months finding my base tone and pushing it up a half step. And then learning the more up and down cadence until that was second nature and then learning to talk with your hands came along pretty quickly after that.
The hand talking has already come pretty naturally (particularly when I'm speaking with other women). Otherwise, yeah, practice practice practice.
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It's just practice really. I spent every morning for a few months finding my base tone and pushing it up a half step. And then learning the more up and down cadence until that was second nature and then learning to talk with your hands came along pretty quickly after that.The hand talking has already come pretty naturally (particularly when I'm speaking with other women). Otherwise, yeah, practice practice practice.
Is that a thing? Do women talk with their hands more than men?
I wonder if this affects sign language. Do women have a different 'accent' than men when using sign language?
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Learning more every day reading this thread...
It's just practice really. I spent every morning for a few months finding my base tone and pushing it up a half step. And then learning the more up and down cadence until that was second nature and then learning to talk with your hands came along pretty quickly after that.And now we've entered the part of every trans conversation where I sit in awkward silence.
Well, I know a lot of trans women go with their voice as is (if I'm understanding you correctly - apologies if not). It's all good. Voice is just one of the personal transition goals I settled on, but I wouldn't want to tell anyone else how they should approach it in their own transition.
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Well, I know a lot of trans women go with their voice as is (if I'm understanding you correctly - apologies if not). It's all good. Voice is just one of the personal transition goals I settled on, but I wouldn't want to tell anyone else how they should approach it in their own transition.It's just practice really. I spent every morning for a few months finding my base tone and pushing it up a half step. And then learning the more up and down cadence until that was second nature and then learning to talk with your hands came along pretty quickly after that.And now we've entered the part of every trans conversation where I sit in awkward silence.
No, it's just that I have nothing I can really say here. My voice never dropped at puberty. Lissa calls me a b%#@% every time she remembers that.
Does age have a bearing on when you decide to transition?
Is there a point where it's too late?
EDIT: the use of the word decide here is not meant to mean one decides to be transgendered. I mean more in making the decision to do so medically with surgery or other means.
No, it's just that I have nothing I can really say here. My voice never dropped at puberty. Lissa calls me a b~!!# every time she remembers that.Well, I know a lot of trans women go with their voice as is (if I'm understanding you correctly - apologies if not). It's all good. Voice is just one of the personal transition goals I settled on, but I wouldn't want to tell anyone else how they should approach it in their own transition.It's just practice really. I spent every morning for a few months finding my base tone and pushing it up a half step. And then learning the more up and down cadence until that was second nature and then learning to talk with your hands came along pretty quickly after that.And now we've entered the part of every trans conversation where I sit in awkward silence.
Ha, cool. Sorry for making an assumption.
Does age have a bearing on when you decide to transition?
Is there a point where it's too late?EDIT: the use of the word decide here is not meant to mean one decides to be transgendered. I mean more in making the decision to do so medicly with surgery or other means.
People transition at a variety of ages. From what I understand, earlier is better, but some people transition in their 60s, and I think later. If you can start before the full effect of puberty kick in, obviously you won't have the effects of testosterone to work against. But I started at 41, and the stuff is working, so...
Being older does affect things a bit, from what I understand. My doctor told me that after 40, there's an increased possibility of blood clotting (one of the possible side effects of taking Estradiol). As a result, she's been hesitant to prescribe progesterone for me, which is often (but not always) part of HRT.
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Does age have a bearing on when you decide to transition?
Is there a point where it's too late?
It's never too late. Transition is more about setting yourself right with you than trying to blend in perfectly with society. That being said, everyone wishes they started younger. People who start in their 30's envy people who started in their 20's. People who start in their 20's envy people who started as teens. People who started as teens envy those kids who start in elementary school.
Financially, it's easier to transition the older you get. But the older you get (transitioning from male to female, at least), the more difficult the process becomes. Testosterone does cumulative damage over time: it makes bones more dense, thickens hair, causes more growth in height and girth, and even once it's stopped those things don't go away. So ideally (it doesn't always work this way, because different people have different endocrine systems), the younger you start, the faster and easier your transition, and the less likely people will clock you as transgender. Not that being trans or not being stealth is a bad thing; it's more an issue of day-to-day comfort (fewer awkward stares or mother pulling their children away from you) and physical safety.
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Probably, at least a bit? From the brief time I spent in a gAySL convo group, some people did have, not sure if you'd call it an accent so much as their (sometimes very gendered) body language strongly pervading their signing as well? But I'm no expert, will ask around.
And while we're on the combined subject of queerness, gender, and ASL, I totally recommend this ASL cover Somebody I Used to Know, respun as a conversation between lesbian exs in SF. Very different dynamic from the original version—in the sung version the woman's voice sounds so meek for most of the song; there is nothing meek about the woman signing that part in this cover. Which makes me listen again and kick myself for my assumptions about the weight of softer, higher voices.
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Does age have a bearing on when you decide to transition?
Is there a point where it's too late?EDIT: the use of the word decide here is not meant to mean one decides to be transgendered. I mean more in making the decision to do so medically with surgery or other means.
It is never too late. I've known people who have transitioned in their late 60's. As you get older things become much harder however both physically and socially. Those that transition in their early teens which used to be pretty rare, have really no problems fitting in with society once they get away from their school. It's a change sociological but their physical presence is malleable enough at that age that they will most likely be indistinguishable from other women and naturally have a great voice.
By 16, the voice has usually changed enough that it will not be greatly affected by hormones but most other things are still transitionable with some minor hair problems.
25 is usually the cut off for starting hormones and having a very significant metamorphosis. Voice is pretty solidly male but that can be worked on. Body hair and beard are fairly significant and hormones won't do much to help those. Still a lot of changes can be wrought to body shape and size as you've not quite finished growing. This was my point of transition and I have some good features but not everything was great. Usually people figure it out extremely early and transition by their 20's or revisit it in their 40's.
Being 40+ comes with signficant baggage but it also usually comes with being somewhat free of some family obligations. Kids are going to college, etc. Hormones still have effects at this age but are not nearly as significant as pre-25. Testosterone is extremely strong and 30 years of pumping it through your body will leave you with very little that can be done. A lot of bone growth is well and truly halted. Fat distribution is still possible and likely at that age and can still greatly affect your facial features. Physically by this point, it's much more difficult.
I have known some great people who transitioned in their early to late thirties. I find them well rounded usually but they take on a lot of personal issues as many have families to deal with. That can be very hard but I've seen a least one great friend who maintained a great family even after she and her wife decided it was best for them to leave each other. She does not pass exceedingly well, but she is an awesome and loving person. Paula Schonauer Amazon Page. Shes also written a few books you should probably check out.
At every stage, realize, that there is a lot you are missing sociologically. It makes for some interesting papers but it's also kind of stunting to have grown up male without the benefit of a lot of female society, which is pretty guarded. There are just things you don't often talk about with your male friends and there are ways in which men and women treat you that take some getting used to. The earlier you learn about how your expected roles in society differ from before, the easier it is to deal with I think. A lot of pre-35 transgender women are feminists simply because they came from a place of privilege and are suddenly finding out what that actually means. It is... jarring. And most transgender women, honestly, come in with certain predispositions and ideas about women that they feel is either correct or at least egalitarian, but they've never been held to those ideals. As you age, those thoughts get more engrained in your psychology and it becomes more difficult, I feel, to break out.
Edit: As always, your mileage may vary. These are from my experience and research many moons ago. =)
Though I am prone to speaking of myself in the collective, that "we" was actually intended to refer to Wisconsinites in general.Actually, we're mostly German, Irish and Polish. The Norse are mostly in Minnesota.A lot of them moved to Wisconsin in the mid to late 19th century.Blame the Norwegians.I thought those were from Norway?Ah, the Royal We, how I have missed thee.
:3
Wisconsinites or Wisconsinians?
Interesting... My Chrome marked Wisconsinians as erroneous but not Wisconsinites.