The LGBT Gamer Community Thread.


Gamer Life General Discussion

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Cheeseweasel wrote:

"It should be obvious..."

I'd have to disagree on that one; while I've grown a bit more obvious as I've grown older (less patience with the social anxieties of the conservabubblers, etc.) I've been a stealth fairy most of my life. Beginning with a conscious act while in the closet, but continuing as a part of the "leave me the hell alone" vibe I tend to give off. Which, it seems, translates into "straight, aggressive, possibly-violent if approached" guy.

Now -- obviously (heh, wordplay) -- if we're looking at a TV/movie character, their orientation needs to be... ah, call it "discoverable;" the audience needs to be able to figure it out. But I don't know that "obvious" is really a perfect choice, given how I, and those like me, slip through the average day without pinging anybody's gaydar.

But depending upon the setting (work, friends and family, public spaces, etc.) it's conceivable that a LGBT character might not exhibit their orientation/queerness/whatever -- at least not in a fashion that anyone not already in the know would notice.

Eh. I'm just glad that there are more of us showing up; the sterotypes make more of a splash, yah. But I do think that sterotypes are often all we can expect from mass media: they're playing to the lowest common denominator.

That's pretty much my take on it. Generally, stereotype is better than caricature and hollywood is full of both for heteronormative cis white men and women, I'm not sure why glbt people would be any different honestly. Just be wary and call them out on it when their stereotype has moved on to caricature. That's my opinion anyway, mileage may vary.


KSF wrote:

Here's a radio interview with Laura Jane Grace of punk band Against Me!, about their new album, "Transgender Dysphoria Blues," their first album since she came out as trans and began transition.

I've listened to most of the album and it's pretty good, IMHO. A lot of the lyrics are really on target, at least in terms of my own experience with gender identity issues, and the various anxieties and difficulties that can go with being transgeder (particularly the track, "True Trans Soul Rebel").

And here's a live performance of the title track. Contains very strong language. And I'd guess the style of music (or even the particularly form of punk) is not to everyone's tastes.

Edit to add: A relevant quote from the interview:

Laura Jane Grace wrote:
I hope it opens their minds. That's kind of the point of doing interviews and being visibly trans... to make that something that's commonplace and make it a voice that's represented.

Hmm. Thanks for that, KSF. I didn’t get around to listening to the BBC interview you linked to a while ago, but I had an idle moment and have a soft spot for our public radio here in the frozen north, so… There may be a broadening of my musical horizons in the offing, I expect! I don’t normally listen to a lot of punk at all, and what pittance I do know comes from Bikini Kill and riot grrrl, belatedly.

Bob Loblaw wrote:
So I have been reading about how TV and movies need more LGBT characters and then they go on to list some that they like. From the lists, I think that they want more stereotypes instead of stronger written characters. One of my favorite lesbian characters is on White Collar. You only hear about her being a lesbian once in a while because it's not the defining characteristic. To me, that's how we should have more representation on TV and in movies. It should be obvious but not what defines a character. I think the stereotypes cause more problems than they solve. What do you all think?

I don't know; do you have any examples, maybe drawn from the lists you mentioned? I'm not much of a TV and movie person, and getting a sense of LGBT (representations in) media is still very much on my "to do" list. I've only just read The Well of Loneliness, and since that new film adaptation of The Great Gatsby came out, I've been idly thinking the former would make an interesting period piece, if only for Valérie Seymour, who's probably my favourite minor character. :)

Anyway, like Cheeseweasel said, what sort of obvious are we talking about in general? If we're talking about a crime drama where every episode is a new case, for example, and the main characters' personal lives happen off-screen, it might be nice for one to mention that their same-sex partner is waiting for them and leave it at that, but in that sort of genre what else would we need to know about them so they're not just "LGB Cop" or, for that matter, "Relationship Cop," if for X many episodes everyone's family life just might not come up?

Paizo Employee Associate Editor

Is anyone else watching The Fosters? We're catching up, and I'm loving this show: interracial lesbian couple with a mix of biological, adopted, and foster kids navigating their complicated family/professional/high school/legal situation. Partly it's enjoyable because it has awesome queer and PoC characters who are portrayed as complex people, not stereotypes, but also because despite road bumps, the characters respect each other and communicate and work to make good decisions and apologize, which is sooooo refreshing. There's still plenty of conflict because the world is a tough place and families are complicated and ugh high school. The characters aren't unrealistically perfect; instead they're people visibly working at being better and supporting each other. And life isn't magically better once you're out.

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Bob_Loblaw wrote:
So I have been reading about how TV and movies need more LGBT characters and then they go on to list some that they like. From the lists, I think that they want more stereotypes instead of stronger written characters. One of my favorite lesbian characters is on White Collar. You only hear about her being a lesbian once in a while because it's not the defining characteristic. To me, that's how we should have more representation on TV and in movies. It should be obvious but not what defines a character. I think the stereotypes cause more problems than they solve. What do you all think?

I'm gonna go with we need more obvious representation and we need more subtle representation. We need more representation, period. But in the currnt climate I lean on the side of obvious representation over subtle. There really are some people whose lives revolve around their sexuality, or queer people who are lusty and will flirt with anyone with a pulse. there are queer people who are pretty uninterested in sex or dating, or just don't talk about their private lives much. But we get so little representation that I feel that the more obvious character win out over subtly. We've had so little representation and spent so long trying to read subtle nods and winks that I'm tired of it, and subtle representation is too easily erased if people get angry over queer inclusion. I would take a single Alex Vause over a thousand Dumbledores.


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Crystal Frasier wrote:
Bob_Loblaw wrote:
So I have been reading about how TV and movies need more LGBT characters and then they go on to list some that they like. From the lists, I think that they want more stereotypes instead of stronger written characters. One of my favorite lesbian characters is on White Collar. You only hear about her being a lesbian once in a while because it's not the defining characteristic. To me, that's how we should have more representation on TV and in movies. It should be obvious but not what defines a character. I think the stereotypes cause more problems than they solve. What do you all think?
I'm gonna go with we need more obvious representation and we need more subtle representation. We need more representation, period. But in the currnt climate I lean on the side of obvious representation over subtle. There really are some people whose lives revolve around their sexuality, or queer people who are lusty and will flirt with anyone with a pulse. there are queer people who are pretty uninterested in sex or dating, or just don't talk about their private lives much. But we get so little representation that I feel that the more obvious character win out over subtly. We've had so little representation and spent so long trying to read subtle nods and winks that I'm tired of it, and subtle representation is too easily erased if people get angry over queer inclusion. I would take a single Alex Vause over a thousand Dumbledores.

Would you say The Wire did what you wanted?

They had both out and proud characters like Omar and Detective Kima Greggs, as well as more subtly portrayed ones like Captain (later Major, and even later than that Acting Commissioner) Rawls and "Snoop."


Monkster wrote:
Some of the more recent posts, delving into the science and biology of gender and sexuality are interesting to me, too -- but perhaps not for the reasons one might think. It's the underlying motive for the questions we ask I find intriguing. We seem as a species, sometimes to obsess on the question, "Why?" Maybe it's just human nature to have a need to compartmentalize everything and everyone - "pigeonhole" folks into their "proper" places, so we can establish pecking order, etc.

Biology doesn't pigeon hole all that well. Most biological qualities have either a bell curve to them, some blurry lines between them, or some wonderfully bizarre exceptions to them that make you go "bwah?" (I'm looking at YOU platypus). Its nice to know where to look for something in all that clutter, but there will always be a fair bit of clutter.

Mostly, idle curiosity. Just knowing how things work and interact is interesting to me, which is why i have books here on biology, geology, game systems, and roman aquaducts.

It does come in very handy when arguing for gay rights. For most people that awkward age when they started to notice the other gender as something other than a target for a dodge ball is such a distant memory that their current mind set is not only normal, but the only conceivable possibility. Pointing out that the feelings of their own that they hold so dear and the feelings that they want to condemn someone else for having/acting on come from the exact same source make the hypocricy blatantly obvious.


Crystal Frasier wrote:
Bob_Loblaw wrote:
So I have been reading about how TV and movies need more LGBT characters and then they go on to list some that they like. From the lists, I think that they want more stereotypes instead of stronger written characters. One of my favorite lesbian characters is on White Collar. You only hear about her being a lesbian once in a while because it's not the defining characteristic. To me, that's how we should have more representation on TV and in movies. It should be obvious but not what defines a character. I think the stereotypes cause more problems than they solve. What do you all think?
I'm gonna go with we need more obvious representation and we need more subtle representation. We need more representation, period. But in the currnt climate I lean on the side of obvious representation over subtle. There really are some people whose lives revolve around their sexuality, or queer people who are lusty and will flirt with anyone with a pulse. there are queer people who are pretty uninterested in sex or dating, or just don't talk about their private lives much. But we get so little representation that I feel that the more obvious character win out over subtly. We've had so little representation and spent so long trying to read subtle nods and winks that I'm tired of it, and subtle representation is too easily erased if people get angry over queer inclusion. I would take a single Alex Vause over a thousand Dumbledores.

I'm going to disagree a bit.

What is needed is more obvious positive representation. There's not a lack of representation of gay people and transsexuals... you just don't see it talked about as much because they're usually the bad guy or usually a character who dies. More representation won't help if it's more of the negative kind.


Crystal Frasier wrote:

Sort of both. A very young epiphany, followed by rejection and shame and spending a decade or more working through that shame. Maybe three or four. I remember going through this phase where lying was the worst thing in the world, and one of my uncles came over for a visit who I'd never met before, and I was hiding and crying because it felt like I was lying when they introduced me as a boy. I didn't really understand what that meant, though, and my parents and the kids in the neighborhood had already taught me that being a girl was the worst thing ever, so I kept trying to hide it. I was already trying to figure out how plastic surgery could make a male into a female when I saw my first trans woman, and my mother explained that people like that existed and were "very confused." A year or two later I remember my father coming home and saying some genuinely awful things about a trans woman they'd hired as a receptionist at his office. I spent a few more years burying it, but once puberty started my brain just screamed "f*@! no, I cannot work like this!" Basically the second I turned 16 and got my license, I'd go shopping and go out to coffee houses as me instead of pretending to be guy like I had to at home and school, and once I moved out of my parents' house at 18 I stopped ever pretending.

The lesbian thing followed a similar path, because my parents and peers also taught me that being gay was terrible. So even after I transitioned I tried very hard to be a straight girl. It didn't help that I'm a little bit bi, and there are some guys who genuinely make me melt. It tooks many years of trial and error before I finally admitted that yeah, I like girls a lot better than I like boys, and that doesn't make me any less of a woman.

That's really, really interesting. I'd never thought such a scenario existed. Wow.

Just so I'm sure I read that right, you were born male, trasitioned to a female, but feel you like females more than males?
So, a lesbian trapped in a man's body?

This is very eye opening. Is this common?

I hope these questions don't sound bad or insulting. I'd always assumed being transgendered involved homosexuality.

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MagusJanus wrote:

I'm going to disagree a bit.

What is needed is more obvious positive representation. There's not a lack of representation of gay people and transsexuals... you just don't see it talked about as much because they're usually the bad guy or usually a character who dies. More representation won't help if it's more of the negative kind.

Or you're part of punch line that ends with a scene where someone throws up. I've completely given up media that portrays someone like me as a thing to be reviled. I think generally, though, positive portrayals was understood here, though.

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Kryzbyn wrote:

That's really, really interesting. I'd never thought such a scenario existed. Wow.

Just so I'm sure I read that right, you were born male, trasitioned to a female, but feel you like females more than males?
So, a lesbian trapped in a man's body?...

It runs about 50/50 in my experience. A lot of transgendered men and women find a nice nice nestling somewhere in between either side of the Kinsey scale simply because gender is seen as a little more wibbly wobbly in general for us but commonly, in my experience, it falls a bit to one side or the other. That's me as well, Crystal is my awesome wife. ^_^ And we've both had other lesbian girlfriends before, both cis and trans.

Dark Archive

I am stoked to find this thread. I wonder if we could get a bunch of us to do an online day together (whether it be a day or not) where we run a bunch of games for us in the LGBTQ community and allies.


Kryzbyn wrote:

Just so I'm sure I read that right, you were born male, trasitioned to a female, but feel you like females more than males?

So, a lesbian trapped in a man's body?
This is very eye opening. Is this common?

Yeah, it's not uncommon. I'm a bi trans woman, but usually feel a stronger attraction toward women than toward men.

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KSF wrote:
Kryzbyn wrote:

Just so I'm sure I read that right, you were born male, trasitioned to a female, but feel you like females more than males?

So, a lesbian trapped in a man's body?
This is very eye opening. Is this common?
Yeah, it's not uncommon. I'm a bi trans woman, but usually feel a stronger attraction toward women than toward men.

I find I appreciate a nice looking man who is clean and square and well dressed but it's much easier for me to be attracted to women than only appreciating a very small contingent of men, in general. =)

It's really interesting how the psychology seems to break down. A lot of those that transition very young seem to be more attracted to men in my experience. And many of those with a later transition seemed to be more attracted to women though not universal and might have been as much a reference on the times and where we were as a society in accepting gay versus trans. But ultimately, we get biology does not equal gender does not equal sexuality. =) I would attribute youth figuring it out a little easier when they have this other thing that flouts the status quo that is a bit easier to grasp, meanwhile those that like women have this thing that counter acts their idea of what it means to be transgender. Very interesting indeed.

But that's just my observation within the community and not based on anything empirical.

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Kryzbyn wrote:

That's really, really interesting. I'd never thought such a scenario existed. Wow.

Just so I'm sure I read that right, you were born male, trasitioned to a female, but feel you like females more than males?
So, a lesbian trapped in a man's body?...

No, it's my body, so it's a woman's body. People just mistook it for male for a while and tried to raise me like that. From my point of view, I've always been a woman (well, a little girl for a while, and a teenage girl for a while, and THEN a woman); I just got forced to line up with the boys, and forced to play sports with the boys. And there are few things more awkward for a 13-year-old girl than being forced to change in the boys' locker room.

But yes, trans lesbians exist, and are at least as common a percentage as cis lesbians. I don't really know accurate numbers because, like a lot of lesbians, I mostly hang out with other queer folk. My personal theory is that a lot more people are bi/pansexual than will admit it, but it gets ground out of us young by social pressure, so the "straight" percentage skews higher than it should. Trans people are a demograhic where that social grinding is applied differently, so it skews the other way.

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Kryzbyn wrote:
So, a lesbian trapped in a man's body?...

Also, I'm not trapped. I like my body. It's tall and strong and cute and has gorgeous hair!

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Crystal Frasier wrote:
Kryzbyn wrote:
So, a lesbian trapped in a man's body?...
Also, I'm not trapped. I like my body. It's tall and strong and cute and has gorgeous hair!

All of these things are true.


Lol thanks for the answers.
I didn't mean trapped now, I meant as a child or teenager.

I'm glad you're happy now!

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Kryzbyn wrote:

Lol thanks for the answers.

I didn't mean trapped now, I meant as a child or teenager.

I'm glad you're happy now!

I still wasn't trapped, nor was it a man's body, even as a child and teenager. The only thing I was trapped in was an inappropriate social role and a chemical makeup.


Lissa Guillet wrote:
meanwhile those that like women have this thing that counter acts their idea of what it means to be transgender. Very interesting indeed.

Precisely that definitely slowed things down for me in my early 20s. (And I'm definitely in the later transition camp at this point.)

Edit to add:

Lissa Guillet wrote:
I find I appreciate a nice looking man who is clean and square and well dressed but it's much easier for me to be attracted to women than only appreciating a very small contingent of men, in general. =)

I hear that.


Have any of you had problems with people automatically assuming you're going to act a certain way just because of being trans?


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MagusJanus wrote:
Have any of you had problems with people automatically assuming you're going to act a certain way just because of being trans?

Not particularly, not yet. But I'm in a very liberal city, and work in an LGBT-friendly workplace (I'm the first T, but there have been and are plenty of LGB people around), so I'm probably shielded from some of that kind of stuff.

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MagusJanus wrote:
Have any of you had problems with people automatically assuming you're going to act a certain way just because of being trans?

Yes. When I was very early into my transition, people were afraid I was going to make it difficult for them whatever that means. Because it was all about them I guess. A lot of friends were worried I was going to dress trashy or like a 50's house wife or wear too much makeup. Those were the more mundane things they expected of me. Funnily, most people were worried more about how I'd look rather than how I'd behave. There is a certain contingent of people that believe that noone outside a group can ever understand what it's like to be inside of a group, but I think every minority has that problem.

We put a lot of expectations on ourselves as well. Most of us just want to get out of the way and try not to be noticed. At least it's safer that way and a lot of my early anxiety came from being in a place that was actively hostile to me and other queer people. And being generally out and even giving a lot of talks on the subject in public areas made me a bit of a target so fitting in was even more important if I was going to be a face for my minority group and still try to live a life that I enjoyed.

A lot of peoples fears about what I was, manifested in people warning me not to do things I'd never thought of doing in the first place. Don't run around the locker room naked. Don't punch people. Don't just freak people out by showing up without people knowing... I actually did that one at the request of a friend and because I needed to get some records changed with my former work. >_>

The much more interesting observation is how people expected me to act differently who didn't know I was trans. I used to keep a list of the ways in which I broke the social contract either outright or subversively. Gaming was one of them. Refusing to not be talked over is another. It was sociologically interesting.

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MagusJanus wrote:
Have any of you had problems with people automatically assuming you're going to act a certain way just because of being trans?

These days, everyone who knows I'm trans has only ever known me as a woman, and I think that makes it easier to accept. I am not read as trans very often, and the only person who knew me from before that I'm still in contact is the guy who took me to prom, so obviously he doesn't have an issue with it. My parents made a big deal of what they were expecting and how horrible it would be when I came out to them, but since then they've seen me become a significantly happier, more productive, and more outgoing person, and have since stopped mentioning it.

I have had cis people (men and lesbians) give me the stink-eye when I've told them I'm trans, and accuse me of trying to "trick" them, so I guess people assume I'm more deceptive if they know. Or at least they're more willing to reveal that they wanted to sleep with me.

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KSF wrote:
Not particularly, not yet. But I'm in a very liberal city, and work in an LGBT-friendly workplace (I'm the first T, but there have been and are plenty of LGB people around), so I'm probably shielded from some of that kind of stuff.

That's awesome. I wish I had had that when/before transitioning. I actually got to listen to a conversation between a coworker and my boss about whether or not a gay christian would go to hell. Here's a hint, my boss figured if you were still gay after accepting Christ then your really didn't except him and therefore couldn't be saved. That was an awesome day.


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Fascinating exchange.

Learning more every day.


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Lissa Guillet wrote:
Crystal Frasier wrote:
Kryzbyn wrote:
So, a lesbian trapped in a man's body?...
Also, I'm not trapped. I like my body. It's tall and strong and cute and has gorgeous hair!
All of these things are true.

Get a room you two!

Oh, wait... :-p


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Lissa Guillet wrote:
That's awesome. I wish I had had that when/before transitioning.

When I first moved here years ago for grad school, I wasn't thinking of it in terms of trans-friendly places. I hadn't planned on staying here long term, and wasn't even aware of some of the qualities this city has that make it (for the most part) a welcoming place for LGBT people. But by the time I was getting closer to coming out and starting transition, I was thinking, okay, this is a good place to do this, I should stay here if I can. And eventually, the workplace situation worked out as well (for the time being, at least).

To some extent, it makes me kick myself a little less about not transitioning sooner. But it was partly happenstance and luck, and when listening to the accounts of other trans people, I'm always aware of how lucky some aspects of my transition have been (particularly in terms of workplace, friend, and family acceptance).

Lissa Guillet wrote:
I actually got to listen to a conversation between a coworker and my boss about whether or not a gay christian would go to hell. Here's a hint, my boss figured if you were still gay after accepting Christ then your really didn't except him and therefore couldn't be saved. That was an awesome day.

Sheesh, that's ridiculous. Sorry you had to deal with that.


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Freehold DM wrote:

Fascinating exchange.

Learning more every day.

I learn a lot from the LGB discussions in this thread, so thanks for contributing to those.

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Freehold DM wrote:

Fascinating exchange.

Learning more every day.

That's really the only reason I came out again. Most of the time, it just really doesn't matter and the sad truth is that people do treat you a little different even if that just trying too hard. It can be a bit unnerving and not worth it most of the time, but if I can help a few people and teach a few others then it's worth making it known.

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Freehold DM wrote:

Fascinating exchange.

Learning more every day.

I used to make a living doing education and community work, so it's been fun getting to do that again. Especially if it helps make life easier for trans kids yet to come.

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Crystal Frasier wrote:

I used to make a living doing education and community work, so it's been fun getting to do that again. Especially if it helps make life easier for trans kids yet to come.

Yeah. Turns out, RPG's are a great hobby for young transkids. Go figure. =)


Lissa Guillet wrote:
Crystal Frasier wrote:

I used to make a living doing education and community work, so it's been fun getting to do that again. Especially if it helps make life easier for trans kids yet to come.

Yeah. Turns out, RPG's are a great hobby for young transkids. Go figure. =)

ran into more trans Vampire the masquerade players than I could ever count. Still remember the kerfuffle over the disappearance of the male daughters of cacophony.


I know I am not transgender. In fact, I don't know what I am.

But, then, one of the fun things I deal with is people assume. They assume I am a certain way and try to recruit me for whatever argument of the moment they're arguing. In part, it's because I'm a rather tenacious person when pursuing a topic; I have tried to mitigate that on here. Not always successful... But, then, some people have found that my views are not what they expect.

Doesn't help that my wording style is unusual. Makes for people trying to pigeonhole me into a certain area and then being confused when I don't entirely fit. Gives me some unique viewpoints, too... I've come to recognize that 90% of modern society, including a lot of its problems, is pure bull$#!^. And to recognize that people often get mired in them and do not come up for air.

Of course, I get mired in my own problems... so I admit I am a bit of a hypocrite on that criticism.

That is what leads to interesting discussions in which I sometimes end up arguing with people I would like to help. And, well, I am a dog with a bone when I get really going...

Ironically, I just want people to recognize the bull$#!^, stop giving it credence, and work together. I kinda suspect that, once people do, being trans will be no different than being born with brown eyes. And how often do you really notice people have brown eyes in daily life?

But, it does get tiresome at times to have to explain to people that I am a wee bit farther afield than they're used to.


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KSF wrote:
Not particularly, not yet. But I'm in a very liberal city, and work in an LGBT-friendly workplace (I'm the first T, but there have been and are plenty of LGB people around), so I'm probably shielded from some of that kind of stuff.

That is good! I am hoping a day comes when it is so accepted that your comment about being shielded is odd.

Lissa Guillet wrote:

Yes. When I was very early into my transition, people were afraid I was going to make it difficult for them whatever that means. Because it was all about them I guess. A lot of friends were worried I was going to dress trashy or like a 50's house wife or wear too much makeup. Those were the more mundane things they expected of me. Funnily, most people were worried more about how I'd look rather than how I'd behave. There is a certain contingent of people that believe that noone outside a group can ever understand what it's like to be inside of a group, but I think every minority has that problem.

We put a lot of expectations on ourselves as well. Most of us just want to get out of the way and try not to be noticed. At least it's safer that way and a lot of my early anxiety came from being in a place that was actively hostile to me and other queer people. And being generally out and even giving a lot of talks on the subject in public areas made me a bit of a target so fitting in was even more important if I was going to be a face for my minority group and still try to live a life that I enjoyed.

A lot of peoples fears about what I was, manifested in people warning me not to do things I'd never thought of doing in the first place. Don't run around the locker room naked. Don't punch people. Don't just freak people out by showing up without people knowing... I actually did that one at the request of a friend and because I needed to get some records changed with my former work. >_>

The much more interesting observation is how people expected me to act differently who didn't know I was trans. I used to keep a list of the ways in which I broke the social contract either outright or subversively. Gaming was one of them. Refusing to not be talked over is another. It was sociologically interesting.

I am sorry for how differently people treated you. And they were seriously worried about how you'd look? I am sorry for that, too.

Though, I would be tempted to show up to a Halloween party dressed as Marilyn Monroe in one of her skimpier outfits... but that's the troublemaker side of me speaking >.>

The weird warnings... what did they think you were going to do? Run into the girl's lockerroom naked, jump up on a bench, and reenact leakspin?

The bit about coming over without people knowing... I very sorry for that. It sounds like, to a degree, they were embarrassed of you... when, in fact, they were potentially damaging a good friendship with a good person. I mean, it's like you were going to show up wearing only rainbow body paint and announce "It's Transifying Time!" Or whatever ridiculous thing they feared. And if you were likely to do that, I'm pretty certain they would have made that rule about coming over unannounced long before you let them know your real gender.

Crystal Frasier wrote:

These days, everyone who knows I'm trans has only ever known me as a woman, and I think that makes it easier to accept. I am not read as trans very often, and the only person who knew me from before that I'm still in contact is the guy who took me to prom, so obviously he doesn't have an issue with it. My parents made a big deal of what they were expecting and how horrible it would be when I came out to them, but since then they've seen me become a significantly happier, more productive, and more outgoing person, and have since stopped mentioning it.

I have had cis people (men and lesbians) give me the stink-eye when I've told them I'm trans, and accuse me of trying to "trick" them, so I guess people assume I'm more deceptive if they know. Or at least they're more willing to reveal that they wanted to sleep with me.

I am glad things are much easier for you now and that you're happier. I am sorry your parents reacted that way, but happy they grew to accept it.

I am sorry about those others reacting that way. I hope they learn to accept. And they really should keep the bit about wanting to sleep with you private, in my estimate. That makes things far too awkward if you have to deal with them later.


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Just dropping in with a little trans solidarity.

It was the serious suck back when the medical profession would literally not allow you to transition unless you reported wanting to be a good little heterosexual. If you were bi or gay, you were told that you were not really trans, as if your sexual orientation had anything to do with your gender (hint: it doesn't - they are completely separate things).

Today it's a little easier on queer transfolks, but I still wouldn't say it's easy. For starters, the punchline to the bad old joke about being a "lesbian trapped in a male body" is not at all funny when it can feel like your literal life. This is not true of all trans* people of course, as Crystal has done an excellent job explaining. It is true of others to varying degrees, myself included, though I'm on the opposite side. I am basically a gay man stuck in permanent drag, whether I particularly feel like doing drag all the time or not. I don't actually mind being genderfluid and doing drag, but being stuck in the box is not much fun. It's even less fun that it's a joke to most people, so yes, please do keep in mind that to a trans* person it may be very unfunny indeed.

Mostly I deal with it by deciding that gender doesn't exist and ignoring the entire hot mess, which means I don't bother presenting as anything other than my birth default because I ran all out of give-a-damn a long time ago with regard to how other people see me. I just don't care and can't be bothered with any type of gender presentation at all, though it can still make me wince to be clearly mis-gendered.

It is kind of funny that I found out that my partner is in essentially the same boat as me not very long after I seriously started considering whether I wanted to date a cisgendered heterosexual male. I normally don't. The chemistry was good enough that I was ignoring my own rules and better judgment on the subject, but fortunately we'll never know if it would have been a deal breaker since this turned out not to be the case. :)


Qunnessaa wrote:
Examples...

The first example is Diana on White Collar. It's known that she's a lesbian. It's just part of her character and it has mattered a few times. At no point do they turn her into some butch woman. She is just an FBI agent who happens to be gay.

The Dome had an interracial lesbian couple. It mattered for how the people treated them and the difficulties that their daughter had but at no point were they caricatures of lesbians or even of an interracial couple. The show was mediocre but these characters stood out to me as a positive example.

Usually when I see an LGBT character in a movie or TV show, the focus is on their gayness and not on who they are. Sure, some people define themselves that way but most people don't. I think we can see more positive examples if we get better writers who see their characters more than one dimensionally.


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MagusJanus wrote:
Have any of you had problems with people automatically assuming you're going to act a certain way just because of being trans?

Yes. Same with being bi. As a bisexual male I have a hard time dating because it is assumed that I'm going to cheat on someone with everyone on the planet. Seriously. I've been told more than once that the fear is that I'm going to sleep around with a bunch of men and women even though I have never done that before. I have always been 100% faithful.

As a crossdresser, I'm expected to act like Ru Paul or have some sort of overly feminized character that I've developed. I'm still me. Yeah, I take on a different name and I try to sit and walk a little differently because I don't want to show parts that aren't meant to be shown in public, but I'm still the same person I was before I put on the skirt.

Silver Crusade Assistant Software Developer

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MagusJanus wrote:

I am sorry for how differently people treated you. And they were seriously worried about how you'd look? I am sorry for that, too.

Though, I would be tempted to show up to a Halloween party dressed as Marilyn Monroe in one of her skimpier outfits... but that's the troublemaker side of me speaking >.>

The weird warnings... what did they think you were going to do? Run into the girl's lockerroom naked, jump up on a bench, and reenact leakspin?

The bit about coming over without people knowing... I very sorry for that. It sounds like, to a degree, they were embarrassed of you... when, in fact, they were potentially damaging a good friendship with a good person. I mean, it's like you were going to show up wearing only rainbow body paint and announce "It's Transifying Time!" Or whatever ridiculous thing they feared. And if you were likely to do that, I'm pretty certain they would have made that rule about coming over unannounced long before you let them know your real gender.

It was more that they embarrassed for me if that makes sense. I was very lucky, I didn't lose any friends in transition and in fact became better friends some. They were mostly worried about shock and what that might do to someone perception and that is not totally unfair. People are weird and we react differently to thing but if you don't ease people into a new idea they can often become resistant. In this way, the mind is a bit of a non newtonian fluid. Often, people think transgender and their mind immediately goes to drag queens that they see on TV during the gay pride coverage. And kind of nudging them away from that is a bit of necessary work for most people and I was very good at that.


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This is sort of a tangent on representation subtle/unsubtle, it was a happy destruction of an unintentional stereotyping of gay men that I was carrying around in my head.

My favourite uncle and his partner, live in the inner city Sydney suburb of Darlinghurst (affectionately called Darlo) both are highly paid, opera loving, gym junkies, both are involved in QLGTBI rights and politics, they globe trot spending a lot of time in Europe and Asia. I loved coming to stay with them we had (still have) the best conversations about History, politics, and Tolkien. Interesting people of all flavours of the rainbow were always visiting and they know the best cafés and restaurants.

So for me that's what gay men were like.

Until one day at work I was having a chat about rugby with a work mate and we were complaining about our team and I said are you going to the game on the weekend, he said nah the boyfriend and I are laying the concrete for our extension we are building a games room and bar. I did a double take he didn't meet all the stereotypes I had built up over the years, he lived in the outer west, voted conservative, had bad fashion sense, watched rugby and hated the gym and preferred Australian pub rock over dance music and opera. It was then I realised that there was no stereotypes other than the ones we make for ourselves.

Silver Crusade

Bob_Loblaw wrote:
Qunnessaa wrote:
Examples...

The first example is Diana on White Collar. It's known that she's a lesbian. It's just part of her character and it has mattered a few times. At no point do they turn her into some butch woman. She is just an FBI agent who happens to be gay.

The Dome had an interracial lesbian couple. It mattered for how the people treated them and the difficulties that their daughter had but at no point were they caricatures of lesbians or even of an interracial couple. The show was mediocre but these characters stood out to me as a positive example.

Usually when I see an LGBT character in a movie or TV show, the focus is on their gayness and not on who they are. Sure, some people define themselves that way but most people don't. I think we can see more positive examples if we get better writers who see their characters more than one dimensionally.

Have you ever watched Southland? The gay cop on that show is extremely private, and does not let anybody get close. His orientation is incidental to the character and in most episodes it does not come up at all.

Is it positive? Eh, the character is deeply flawed like all the rest of the characters on that show. (He has anger management issues and also struggles with addiction to painkillers.) But it is treated as no big deal, and the character is definitely not a stereotype.


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Super news - My uncle's partner (I wish I could say husband (one day soon I hope)) got made a Member of the Order of Australia

The Order of Australia is an order of chivalry established by Elizabeth II, Queen of Australia, to recognise Australian citizens and other persons for achievement or for meritorious service. Before the establishment of the order. (from Wiki)

"Mr Baxter was given the award for his ‘significant service to the community as an advocate for people affected by and living with HIV/AIDS.’

"Australia's initial response to the HIV/AIDS crisis in the 1980s is rightly acknowledged today as a global benchmark - and Don was a key driver of that," Mr Lake said.

"By the time the epidemic hit Australia, Don had already spent a decade as an activist fighting for gay rights and was quick to understand the magnitude of the crisis. His grassroots activism and tireless advocacy helped convince governments across the country that this was a new kind of problem that demanded new kinds of responses."

From the AFAO. Link.

So proud - my dad is trying to talk my uncle into organising a party (not a hard task).


Hip-hip huzzah for dwarven uncle partner!


Congratulations! I can't imagine that there are many people who don't recognise the Queen's name when they see it, though. :)


Celestial Healer wrote:
Bob_Loblaw wrote:
Qunnessaa wrote:
Examples...

The first example is Diana on White Collar. It's known that she's a lesbian. It's just part of her character and it has mattered a few times. At no point do they turn her into some butch woman. She is just an FBI agent who happens to be gay.

The Dome had an interracial lesbian couple. It mattered for how the people treated them and the difficulties that their daughter had but at no point were they caricatures of lesbians or even of an interracial couple. The show was mediocre but these characters stood out to me as a positive example.

Usually when I see an LGBT character in a movie or TV show, the focus is on their gayness and not on who they are. Sure, some people define themselves that way but most people don't. I think we can see more positive examples if we get better writers who see their characters more than one dimensionally.

Have you ever watched Southland? The gay cop on that show is extremely private, and does not let anybody get close. His orientation is incidental to the character and in most episodes it does not come up at all.

Is it positive? Eh, the character is deeply flawed like all the rest of the characters on that show. (He has anger management issues and also struggles with addiction to painkillers.) But it is treated as no big deal, and the character is definitely not a stereotype.

I haven't watched Southland but that sounds exactly like the type of character I'm talking about. That's a positive to me. It should just be a part of who they are rather than the defining characteristic.


Crystal Frasier wrote:
Kryzbyn wrote:

Lol thanks for the answers.

I didn't mean trapped now, I meant as a child or teenager.

I'm glad you're happy now!

I still wasn't trapped, nor was it a man's body, even as a child and teenager. The only thing I was trapped in was an inappropriate social role and a chemical makeup.

Ok. I'm not getting what you're trying to tell me here.

I used the cliche "felt like x trapped in y body", I'm sorry if that wasn't 100% accurate, or if it was insulting.

Were you ok with having male genetalia, then? You just didn't like all the expectations that came with it?

Liberty's Edge Digital Products Assistant

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Kryzbyn wrote:
Crystal Frasier wrote:
Kryzbyn wrote:

Lol thanks for the answers.

I didn't mean trapped now, I meant as a child or teenager.

I'm glad you're happy now!

I still wasn't trapped, nor was it a man's body, even as a child and teenager. The only thing I was trapped in was an inappropriate social role and a chemical makeup.

Ok. I'm not getting what you're trying to tell me here.

I used the cliche "felt like x trapped in y body", I'm sorry if that wasn't 100% accurate, or if it was insulting.

Were you ok with having male genetalia, then? You just didn't like all the expectations that came with it?

It actually is a vaguely insulting phrase, but I realize it came from a place of ignorance not malice. As is describing a trans woman's genitals as "male." It's not male genitalia if its on a woman; its just atypical female genitalia. I'm female. I've always been female, even when I was forced to pretend to be a boy. Yes, my body needed some fine tuning, but so would any girl's body that had a growth pumping out too many androgens.

And to delve into an etiquette lesson, turning a conversation about trans people towards genitalia is minimizing what we actually go through. The state of sex organs is such a small part of transition it's almost laughable how much importance the wider public places on them. I understand there's a curiosity, and that the media and wider culture seem obsessed with what's in a trans person's underwear, but it genuinely isn't important and has no relation to 99% of the people we come in contact with during the day. My genitals, and my relationship to them, are a private matter that only I and my sexual partner need to be concerned with. Their importance is infinitesimally small compared to my social roles, my blood chemistry, who and how I interact with, how I am perceived, and the pain I have to deal with from the larger world for who I am.

Again, I know you weren't being intentionally rude, but the idea of trans people's genitals being public property, or the topic for public debate, is dehumanizing and a constant source of stress within our community.


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Crystal Frasier wrote:

It actually is a vaguely insulting phrase, but I realize it came from a place of ignorance not malice. As is describing a trans woman's genitals as "male." It's not male genitalia if its on a woman; its just atypical female genitalia. I'm female. I've always been female, even when I was forced to pretend to be a boy. Yes, my body needed some fine tuning, but so would any girl's body that had a growth pumping out too many androgens.

And to delve into an etiquette lesson, turning a conversation about trans people towards genitalia is minimizing what we actually go through. The state of sex organs is such a small part of transition it's almost laughable how much importance the wider public places on them. I understand there's a curiosity, and that the media and wider culture seem obsessed with what's in a trans person's underwear, but it genuinely isn't important and has no relation to 99% of the people we come in contact with during the day. My genitals, and my relationship to them, are a private matter that only I and my sexual partner need to be concerned with. Their importance is infinitesimally small compared to my social roles, my blood chemistry, who and how I interact with, how I am perceived, and the pain I have to deal with from the larger world for who I am.

Again, I know you weren't being intentionally rude, but the idea of trans people's...

Thanks for bearing with me on this, and for your answers. I keep apologizing, and then making more blunders...

I really am trying to understand you as a person first and foremost, and how you live your life. I doubt it's anywhere near as awkward for me to ask these questions as it is for you to answer them, especially in a very public forum, and while I will again apologize for any discomfort my question caused, I also sincerely thank you for your forthright amswers.
I did not mean to associate the gender 'bits' with who you are, or with how others are or view themselves. I must sound incredibly ignorant! I have not lived this, nor experienced anything close to what you have. I was just trying to make it all work in my head so I understand.

Thank you, and I hope I didn't ruin it for anyone else who has these kinds of questions.

Silver Crusade Assistant Software Developer

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Ignorance is surprisingly fun. It means you get to learn new things. ^_^

Silver Crusade Assistant Software Developer

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It is a fairly common question to ask about genitalia and that needs to stop. The process is interesting if you ever look into it but it's a personal question you wouldn't ask people in general. So good to keep that in mind. I think Laverne Cox and Carmen Carrera had a similar talk when they were recently interviewed.

Liberty's Edge Digital Products Assistant

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Kryzbyn wrote:

Thanks for bearing with me on this, and for your answers. I keep apologizing, and then making more blunders...

I really am trying to understand you as a person first and foremost, and how you live your life. I doubt it's anywhere near as awkward for me to ask these questions as it is for you to answer them, especially in a very public forum, and while I will again apologize for any discomfort my question caused, I also sincerely thank you for your forthright amswers.
I did not mean to associate the gender 'bits' with who you are, or with how others are or view themselves. I must sound incredibly ignorant! I have not...

Some blunders are understandable. They don't exactly teach trans issues 101 in school, and you'll even find argument within the trans community about what our identity means. Let me know if this helps...

The seat of identity is the brain. And for whatever reason (biological or chemical or social or spiritual), my brain is female. I know this because I have tried to wear a male role and a female role, and the female role is by far more comfortable. And once I began hormone therapy, everything just Worked in my brain for the first time since puberty began. I could feel all my emotions, and the depression and anxiety faded back significantly, and my body felt warm and comfortable, not clumsy and smelly and cold.

My body is the possession of my brain, so it's accurate to call it a female body, even if it has structures not associated with a typical female, or lacks some structures commonly associated with being female. Nearly 2% of the population, male and female, are born with atypical genitalia, after all, and you wouldn't call them agender for not fitting perfectly into "male" or "female" definitions. I don't have a uterus, but lots of women don't have uteri and you wouldn't describe their bodies as "not female" for the lack. My body needed some correction, but lots of people are born with congenital conditions that require correction; a heart murmur doesn't make you any less of a person. To paraphrase a TV show that got it right "It's a girl penis. It's like a boy penis, but on a girl."

So the phrase "A woman trapped in a man's body" isn't really accurate. My body is, and always has been, a woman's body, in that it belongs to a woman. It's just a woman's body with uncomfortable hormone problems and no uterus.

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