Greetings,
To get straight to the point: How do you fellow GMs handle the players' use of detect thoughts, seek thoughts, and other such spells? They have significant potential to remove any mystery from a plot, as they can not only remove the need to worry about Bluff/Sense Motive checks, but they can even expose the secret BBEG before the party even knows there is one.
For that matter, how much information do you provide for this sort of thing? A few leading questions would be enough for almost anybody without specialized mental training to accidentally let slip all their darkest secrets. While I'm willing to play things that way, it'll certainly be less interesting for the players if there's no intrigue at all--and even less interesting if I frequently resort to cheese like all the important people wearing anti-scrying devices or having such mental training.
Basically, how do you make detect thoughts useful without being game-breaking?
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Basically, how do you make detect thoughts useful without being game-breaking?
You don't. You let the spells do what they're meant to do, and you make up adventures that make sense and are still fun.
That depends on the BBEG and his/her methods. If BBEG leaves his minions in the dark about his grander scheme, Detect Thoughts would only give a glimpse into what the minion knows. It would still be useful for the party, but you wouldn't have to go and give up the entire plot. Maybe through utility spells, they gain some secret knowledge of a trap or two in the boss' lair that the minion is hoping they die on, and the way there.
It's a tricky one. The spell that I find causes the most trouble is sending, although sometimes it's problematic because the bad guys would be using it. The ability to contact anyone you know at pretty well any time and find out what's going on on the other side of the world (or simply, 'back in the city') is infinitely useful. To partially combat that I've given it a gp cost (an expensive sheet of vellum on which the message is written).
Detect thoughts is tricky, it's unreasonable to not allow leading questions to bring the right thoughts to mind although if a target has spellcraft you could reasonably allow them a roll to identify that the guy who is staring intently at him while another guy asks them leading questions is trying to read his mind. In a magic heavy environment with well organised npcs it might be reasonable to allow an int roll for this and for the target to fill their mind with popular song lyrics. There is a saving throw of course and it's not that hard, probably 17-18 so minions in the know will have a chance of resisting. People think in their native language so information may not be meaningful ("their mind is full of some barbaric nonsense, probably Skald"). People's thoughts are transient and often a bit jumbled, don't ever repeat information gained in this way without the players repeating the questions - which won't necessarily bring the same information to mind as the instinctive thought would be "but you've already asked that". These are all ideas to mitigate the problem if the players over-do it, but basically, yeah, the spell can easily short cut investigation type adventures and to some extent you're stuck with 'letting the spells do what they're meant to do and rolling with it'. If it's going to ruin the adventure, give the target a +20 circumstance bonus on their save.
Basically, how do you make detect thoughts useful without being game-breaking?You don't. You let the spells do what they're meant to do, and you make up adventures that make sense and are still fun.
Don't worry; I have no intention of nerfing the spell. That'd be a jerk move to anybody who learned it by choice. What I'm looking for advice on how to keep things fun given that one or more PCs can cast this, for all practical purposes, at will.
Limit the information any given bad guy knows. In the Batman movie, joker hired all those guys to help with the bank heist, giving them different pieces of information, so that none of them knew the overall plan.
Do that.
Maybe I'm just worrying too much about it. As long as nobody complains about the Bluff and Sense Motive mechanics going by the wayside, I have no worries. So far the only character that didn't make their Will save was seriously psychologically damaged, so leading questions had limited effect. For other characters, the PC will likely get whatever information they want (at the cost of possibly getting harassed by the PC for magicking them up without permission, if they aren't stealthy about it).
Thanks for the advice.
Limit the information any given bad guy knows. In the Batman movie, joker hired all those guys to help with the bank heist, giving them different pieces of information, so that none of them knew the overall plan.
Do that.
This works so long as the party never meets the BBEG. Though I guess it isn't unreasonable that a true BBEG would take measures to prevent or mislead mind probing, or make the cost of obviously trying to ensorcel the character unacceptable (e.g., a king in court with guards all around). From the interpretations I've seen, even a spell metamagicked to the point of having no components still comes off as casting a spell to an onlooker.
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"Hey does this guy know something about our plan to take over the ...wowa look at that hot lady over there, I would certainly like to ... I have been on watch for 6 straight hours now I wonder when I get a bathroom ... who is this guy and why is he asking these questions."
Detect thoughts only gives surface thoughts so have some fun with it.
For the BBEG, this. [Go to Mind Shielding]
I routinely give BBEGs who KNOW they are BBEG's rings like this to hide questionable thoughts and alignment.
There are a couple of things that can help deal with this. The first is that there is a saving throw so characters with good will saves are going to be hard to read. Second is it only determines surface thoughts so and has a duration of concentration you are probably not going to be able to do the questioning yourself. This being the case you will have to have someone else ask the questions and will not be able to use the information you gained to further refine the question.
If it is the BBEG and he suspects this spell will be used there are a couple of things that can be done. A lead lined helm will stop the spell cold. There are also plenty of spells to counter detects.
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Another interesting problem to consider is that people think in images and words. If a minion thinks of his boss "jeff" should a PC just get "jeff" or also an image of what he looks like. If presented as a rapid series of images, a river, a castle, a person's face, detect thoughts could provide interesting clues without being game breaking.
For the BBEG, this. [Go to Mind Shielding]
I routinely give BBEGs who KNOW they are BBEG's rings like this to hide questionable thoughts and alignment.
Hmm, the first part of your second comment brings up possibilities--BBEGs who don't know they're BBEGs.
Greetings,
To get straight to the point: How do you fellow GMs handle the players' use of detect thoughts, seek thoughts, and other such spells?
Basically, how do you make detect thoughts useful without being game-breaking?
Essentially by following the limits of the spells. You should not be giving your players a free pass to information. These are surface thoughts, or you can call them stream of consciousness.
Things I would say, "You get the impression that <name> finds your questioning unwelcome". "You get the image of a cave in the woods." or "You get the impression that Bruno is a problem solver."
Don't think of a pink elephant.
Surface thoughts are pretty easy to manipulate. Your implementation seems more like an empathy spell than a thought detection spell.
In alot of places casting a spell at someone is going to be grounds to attack you, call the watch, etc...
If I see someone casting a spell at me, my thoughts would run along the lines of, "Holy carp! What is he doing to me? Won't somebody stop him? How do I get away? Can I take him myself?..." I wouldn't even be listening to what ever questions they are asking.
Work to the strengths of the party. Make it difficult in an other way. I've had my telepathy powers nerfed constantly in a 3.5 game, it isnt nice. Hope it runs great!
To derail the thread a little bit:
The last superhero RPG campaign I played in had the players make their characters independently before the game. Once we actually started playing, we realised that 4 out of 7 characters had telepathy! (And a couple had X-ray vision, as well.) Obviously some players weren't too keen on mystery adventures. :-)
Don't think of a pink elephant.
You just made me lose The Game.
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Detect Thoughts is not as powerful as you think. It does not work like a thought probe. After three rounds you only know surface thoughts which can be anything. Most plains are not passed on down the line so it's most likely that the only one who knows the true plain is the leader and possibly his second in command.
Detect Thoughts in no way causes the caster to know everything. It's up to you as a DM how you handle it.
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Generally, smart or magic-aware BBEGs are going to take into account that minions might be questioned, charmed, divined, spied upon, etc. So they will only tell them what the BBEG thinks they need to know, and they may be deliberately misleading -- both to keep their minions online, and to deceive anyone who questions them.
It's probably best not to overdo this. Only really clever BBEGs can keep track of multiple layers of plots... maybe yours is, but are you capable of tracking it? One layer of misdirection at most.
Look at PC's use of info-spells as an GM advantage: you can easily show the PCs where next to go. Some classic mysteries don't work well in a universe where lots of people can easily detect lies or read thoughts; so do new stuff. Maybe the problem isn't finding out whodunnit, but proving whodunnit with evidence hard enough to make someone else move.
And BBEGs can use these spells too. There's one classic from way, way, way back in 1E, where the PCs can track down someone who's been spying on them, but if they try to track up the line from him, they find out he's been given his instructions to write a report on a scroll, seal it in a tube, and drop it down a well. If they investigate the well... it's filled with tubes. Nobody has been picking them up. The spy's contact finds out what the spy reports by using detect thoughts on him while he's writing the report (probably from the next room in the inn.)
Also, don't forget that anti-divination spells, disguises, and modify memory exist. What a minion remembers seeing may not be the truth! Maybe the BBEG puts on a black robe and a mask over his face, but clever players can find out from minions that he always wears pink leather boots with the Black Duke's coat-of-arms on them... but is this the Black Duke, or is this another layer of misdirection designed to point PCs toward another of the BBEG's enemies/targets?
That's for clever intrigue stuff or murder mysteries. (Murderers not clever enough to anticipate speak with dead are not likely to be much above the thug category... a bandit chief or an orc warlord probably won't think about this kind of stuff, or won't need to.)
Spells like commune and legend lore provide another whole level of info-gathering. ("Did Brunhilde murder Siegfried?" "NO!" "Did Gunthrum murder Siegfried?" "YES!") But a clever BBEG can do a lot to prevent being found out by lower-level magic. So can his clever minions, if they're clever.
A high-level BBEG should at least think about these issues, and have a solution. It doesn't have to be a great solution -- ultimately, you want the players to have a chance to find out what's going on.
And remember: the best defense is to never be suspected at all. I had a succubus disguise herself as a fat ugly old lady and nobody suspected her at all... until they ran across another clue from way back when. Be ... unexpected. Pretend to be someone else, someone who Obviously Fits, and nobody will blink twice.
Detect Thoughts only does surface thoughts it doesn't dig and probe into there mind. So just think how much does the guy that is having his mind read know about what he is doing, and award the party alittle more info for using a spell. Instead of just saying "oh I didn't account for the use of Divination spells to be involved so it doesn't work".
Alittle more information won't break your game, because there's always mystery further down the line.
Easy there, Hair-Trigger. I'm not going to nerf the spell. I merely asked for advice as to how to deal with its ramifications per RAW.
As far as how much they know, it depends greatly on the target. But so long as the target knows the answer to a question, simply asking the question basically obviates any need for bluff/sense motive, intimidate, diplomacy, torture, and most of the inquisitor's, well, inquisitional spells.
You don't need to probe past surface thoughts for the answer; it's nearly impossible for most people to not think of the answer to a question when asked it, especially if they don't know their mind is being read. Unless there's some other definition of "surface thoughts" people are using.
Regardless, the spell does what the spell does, and I can work with it.
Keep in mind, the Players are supposed to solve the mystery eventually. Does it matter if they pick Detect Thoughts instead of using Gather information or Perception?
Here's the best advice I've seen on the subject.
I've seen this in my games, and I try to give the players something for having a good idea. Maybe not every inch of information they wanted, but usually enough to move the story along.
I also make sure that spells are generally illegal. Just like you can't walk around town casting scorching ray on people, neither can you cast detect thoughts.
Abuse the tactic, and you're the evil wizard who controls minds, and the Inquisition will be knocking on your door in a hurry.
Hand the Players a Wanted poster saying 500gp award for information leading to the arrest of Enchanter Tim, and watch how fast the tactics change. Credible law enforcement goes a long way.
This is why the BBEG meets his minions in random, spooky forest glades, fully cloaked and masked,and goes only by 'The Shadow'.
I'm not saying you are banning the Detect Thoughts spell, but I've had DM's that always say "He doesn't know anything" and it's a little Frustrating. I was just using that as an example
Amen. And I find that goes double with Intimidate. Half the time I find that intimidated foes still refuse to talk, or (my "favourite") you somehow intimidated them so much that they turn into a blubbering mess that's incapable of talking.
Sometimes you can give them more information than they bargained for. If you're sufficiently good at twisted descriptions, you can make the mind of an enemy a really disturbing place to go rooting around in, like revealing nasty personal quirks or habits that aren't necessary to the adventure but might creep your players out. Another tactic is to give them information that complicates their investigation ("you mean this bad guy was just trying to stop ANOTHER greater evil?" Or "Crap, there's some key hostages in the BBEG's HQ we're planning to nuke off the face of the planet?!").
Also, your baddies don't have to be all knowing either- perhaps they are misinformed or have incomplete/wrong knowledges. Perhaps even your BBEG is playing part in an arcane process, drawn in and given power by forces he doesn't completely understand. Detect thoughts and related magics can give you a good way for your players to learn this clue to lead to more investigations and a more deepening mystery beyond any one person or group. Give them a slow but steady stream of information and let them decide which is vital and which is not.
Also, remember that detect thoughts and the like usually have to be cast, meaning it's a voluntary action. How you describe the scene will influence when they cast it. If you go into extreme detail or give certain npcs a lot of face time, then many players will go after those characters with detect thoughts and the like. Limit your mastermind's exposure to the party, but drop the occasional subtle hint or clue (or three) as to the mastermind's identity so astute players can get an inkling of what's going on and possibly discover the plans early on if they are truely skillful.
I'm not saying you are banning the Detect Thoughts spell, but I've had DM's that always say "He doesn't know anything" and it's a little Frustrating. I was just using that as an exampleAmen. And I find that goes double with Intimidate. Half the time I find that intimidated foes still refuse to talk, or (my "favourite") you somehow intimidated them so much that they turn into a blubbering mess that's incapable of talking.
Well, stop intimidating the four year old girl. She doesn't know who the murderer is. ; )
Thanks again for the advice, folks, and I'll definitely check out that link.