A few questions concerning grapple.
1. I've read over the raw for moving while grappled and it seems to me that if a creature is capable of flying, it could move into the air and free action drop its prey to the ground. The creature would likely get a chance to break the grapple before the creature could attempt to fly up the next round. However, my question pertains to the ruling that a creature gets a save to avoid being placed in a dangerous square. So would this mean that if they do not escape your grapple you can just drop them as their only save in turn leaves them falling?
2. If one possesses Ride-By Attack and grab through a bite, could you move in bite, grab, and then continue on with the now grappled enemy?
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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These questions are better addressed in the general rules forums, rather than here, where we hash out issues specific to Pathfinder Society organized play.
Nonetheless, welcome, Joshua.
I have a summoner whose eidolon is just as you describe, a Large (or sometimes Huge) grappling machine that has flight and a very high strength. The rules, as I understand it, allow that a grappled creature gets a free escape check at +4 when moves into dangerous area. Midair is dangerous. So, when the grappler takes off into the air, the victim ought to get a save.
My eidolon just vanishes when I dismiss her, sending the victim plummeting towards the ground. For a grappler that sticks around, but just lets go, I'd allow the grapple victim to ready an action to grab the flyer right back, clinging on to its legs for dear life.
My rules-fu for ride-by attack isn't too strong, but what you describe sounds reasonable. Certainly, it's the kind of thing rocs are renown for.
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Ride-By Attack (Combat)
While mounted and charging, you can move, strike at a foe, and then continue moving.
Prerequisites: Ride 1 rank, Mounted Combat.
Benefit: When you are mounted and use the charge action, you may move and attack as if with a standard charge and then move again (continuing the straight line of the charge). Your total movement for the round can't exceed double your mounted speed. You and your mount do not provoke an attack of opportunity from the opponent that you attack.
move, One attack, free grapple, move. End turn.
Though the creature would likely need a different feat, like...Spring Attack or Fly-by-attack.
1. ...a creature gets a save to avoid being placed in a dangerous square. So would this mean that if they do not escape your grapple you can just drop them as their only save in turn leaves them falling?
If you try to place them in a dangerous square, they get a free check to escape the grapple. If they succeed, they've escaped and the target gets to decide what square they are in. If they fail, you decide which square they are in. If all of the squares are in the air, it doesn't much matter.
2. If one possesses Ride-By Attack and grab through a bite, could you move in bite, grab, and then continue on with the now grappled enemy?
No. Once you grapple someone, you get the grappled condition. The grappled condition says you can't move so you turn ends. You' have to wait until next round, make your grapple check, and then you'd be able to move with them.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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DMF Todd, Ithat sounds counter-intuitive. A roc, grabbing a horse on the wing, gains the grappled condition and cannot move. A swashbuckling cavalier rides up besides the lovely barmaid whom the bandits have tried to kidnap, he reaches down to pull her into the saddle, gains the grappled condition, and can't move.
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DMF Todd, Ithat sounds counter-intuitive. A roc, grabbing a horse on the wing, gains the grappled condition and cannot move. A swashbuckling cavalier rides up besides the lovely barmaid whom the bandits have tried to kidnap, he reaches down to pull her into the saddle, gains the grappled condition, and can't move.
But that's the rules. As for your examples:
If the Roc has grab (I haven't looked it up), it has the option of taking a penalty to its grapple check to grab without gaining the grappled condition.
Alternatively, maybe the Roc grappled the horse one round and flew off the next? Just because the entire scenario can't play out in a single round doesn't mean that the rules are failing to support the idea and are therefore being misapplied.
As for Sir Daring, he's doing a reposition maneuver anyway. ;)
2. If one possesses Ride-By Attack and grab through a bite, could you move in bite, grab, and then continue on with the now grappled enemy?No. Once you grapple someone, you get the grappled condition. The grappled condition says you can't move so you turn ends. You' have to wait until next round, make your grapple check, and then you'd be able to move with them.
+1
In order to swoop down, grab someone, and then drag them into the sky it would take 2 rounds.
Round 1:
Fly down to the opponent, attack with your bite, and initiate grapple. Since you can not move the other character without maintaining the grapple your turn ends here.
Round 2:
Maintain the grapple. Unless you swap the character to your limbs, you will take a -15 to your check (-20 for maintaining the grapple with your bite, +5 for typical maintain grapple check). If successful choose the move opponent option and fly away with opponent (Opponent gets a free escape artist attempt each time you move him in the air).
Edit: Just because something happens over two rounds does not mean that it isn't a fluid motion of events. As long as the flying creature flies more than half its movement rate each round it is still considered to be flying and thus this whole combat maneuver is a fluid thing. Just because it happens over 2 rounds does not mean that the flying creature stops and hovers while grappling.
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I'm with Chris on this. Anyone who hasn't seen a bird of prey strike, it's not 12 seconds, it's less than 1-2 seconds. I don't have RAW knowledge to back this up, and I'm sure you all do, but regardless if that's the case, it's wrong. I would argue the rules should be shifted to allow Rideby, flyby, and spring attack to allow you to move after your grapple.
Might be counter-intuitive, but it seems to be RAW near as I can tell.
(The Roc can take the -20 to it's Grapple check to not gain the Grappled condition which would allow it to move. But.. you have to make another grapple check to move someone, I don't think that's a free check so I'd say the Roc still has to stop.)
(I wouldn't call the maiden a grapple. I'd call it a version of Fast Mount - DC25 Ride check maybe, assuming she's willing.)
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I'm with Chris on this. Anyone who hasn't seen a bird of prey strike, it's not 12 seconds, it's less than 1-2 seconds.
Not when you include the approach and departure it's not.
I don't have RAW knowledge to back this up, and I'm sure you all do, but regardless if that's the case, it's wrong. I would argue the rules should be shifted to allow Rideby, flyby, and spring attack to allow you to move after your grapple.
That the rules should change? Sure. I'd like a clause of "if the grappled creature is at least X size categories smaller than you, you don't gain the grappled condition" or something.
Until then, though, them's the rules (at least in PFS).
(The Roc can take the -20 to it's Grapple check to not gain the Grappled condition which would allow it to move. But.. you have to make another grapple check to move someone, I don't think that's a free check so I'd say the Roc still has to stop.)
That's how I read it also. Just because you don't have the grappled condition does not mean that can ignore the rules for grappling.
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To clarify, since everyone seems to be misreading my words. The rules probably say one thing, and you all seem to have better acumen for them than I.
I am advocating that the rules themselves have an error in them. Yes, by RAW, which I as a VC have to enforce, you're very well and likely right, but reality and logic on this subject which we base our game from barring magic say something else.
I can show you many videos from the nat geo, and testimony from naturalists, and personal accounts, from the moment that say a peregrine falcon or an osprey sees it's prey and begins it's descent, grabs it, and departs is less than 5 seconds. They have to show that stuff in slo-mo just so we can even see what happened, otherwise it's a blur.
The size over X creature and no grapple would probably be the simplest. Are you really grappled if you're "huge" grappling a medium or small? Does my pet rat "Give" me the grapple condition when I pick him up and she doesn't appreciate it? Logic once again says no. My cat though, being unwilling sure as heck does. :P
Rat: Dimunitive?
Cat: Tiny
Dog: Small
Me: Medium
So maybe 2+ size categories? I don't know, but the rules are off in some regard. Maybe the -20 bakes in the size differences and we're not considering that.
Also, where is this -20 and no grapple condition rule coming from? Just read through grapple combat manuever twice and can't find it.
Also, where is this -20 and no grapple condition rule coming from? Just read through grapple combat manuever twice and can't find it.
Since he is using a bit attack and the grab ability that goes with it...
Universal Monster Rules: Grab
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Logic once again says no..
Logic and rules rarely meet...
They are correct on the rules, it is not in error, that is the way they wrote them.
You are more looking at a request of a rule change, not finding an error in the rules..
And your question on -20, it is part of the Grab ability not the Grapple Combat Maneuver... Look at the Bestiary.
I agree that the grab-'n'-go maneuver is the sort of thing the grapple at -20 option is meant for. Unfortunately, that bit of the Grab rules doesn't make much sense in Pathfinder:
(1) The -20 modifier is more punitive than in 3E, since bonuses due to size were cut in half.
(2) As written in PFRPG, the grappling creature still has to spend a standard action each turn maintaining the grapple anyways (whether the grapple was made at -20 or not), so it's not much of an advantage.