Theorycrafter Crossbowman question


Rules Questions


So, just trying to figure something out here, and I can use a little clarification. Let us make a human, we'll call him Larry. Larry is a fighter (crossbowman) 11. He has an 18 dex and an 18 int. He has the following pertinent feats and abilities:
Deadshot, Imp. deadshot, Grt. deadshot, crossbow expert (+2), vital strike, imp. vital strike, devastating strike, exotic weapon prof. (double crossbow), weapon focus (dbl crossbow), weapon spec. (dbl. cr.bow), deadly aim (-3,+6), and focused shot.

Larry has chugged a potion of enlarge person with a gravity bow chaser.

Larry also has a shiny +2 frost, shock dbl. crossbow. It's loaded... and dangerous. He stares down his sights at some ugly orc and says something in orcish (probably a clever and witty insult given his high intelligence), and readies to attack the orc if he attacks. The orc doesn't like being told what to do, not by pinkskins, not in his language, and especially not wittily. The orc charges, and larry fires. Larry hits trying to use all the above mentioned feats on his shot.

How much damage does Larry do?

Dark Archive

deadly aim should be -3/+6 at that level


Name Violation wrote:
deadly aim should be -3/+6 at that level

Thank You, and changed in original post. I also forgot to ask, but I was also wondering what his damage would be after having chugged a potion of enlarge person and gravity bow? That makes a big difference, and I also forgot that in the op.


Remember that once ammunition leaves an enlarged person, it reverts back to normal size. Gravity Bow is only attainable by spells or via wands. It can't be made into potions.


Steve Shippy aka Beerwolf wrote:
Remember that once ammunition leaves an enlarged person, it reverts back to normal size. Gravity Bow is only attainable by spells or via wands. It can't be made into potions.

Ouch, so many headaches. Alright, for argument's sake, let's just say the ammunition doesn't shrink. He bought large bolts, he could be permanently enlarged or something... I still just want to know what the actual damage calculation would be.


Base (with Gravity Bow): 2d8
Focused Shot: +4
G. Deadshot: +4
Crossbow Expert: +2
Weapon Specialization: +2
Deadly Aim: +6

Now double these values since it is two damage rolls

Vital Strike on Double Crossbow with enlarged bolts: +2d8
Devastating Strike: +4 because it's technically two weapon damage dice rolls.

Frost: +1d6
Shock: +1d6

The key here is this tidbit in Vital Strike:

"Roll the weapon’s damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together before adding bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming), precision-based damage, and other damage bonuses."

So it's:

(2d8+8+8+4+8+12)+(2d8+4)+1d6 frost+1d6 shock

I'm about 85% certain that this is it. The Vital/Devastating Strike with a weapon that shoots two bolts is a little iffy with me.

As an aside, I did not account for enlarge person because it would lower your damage output by one because of the -2 to Dexterity. You are better off simply with Gravity Bow. Now, if he is Large Size AND has Gravity Bow AND large bolts, each bolt would go from 1d8 to 2d6. It'd become:

(4d6+8+6+4+8+12)+(4d6+4)+1d6 frost+1d6 shock


So - dead shot only works with firearms, so we can erase all those, making things a little simpler. Do you still want this calculated out?


glandis wrote:
So - dead shot only works with firearms, so we can erase all those, making things a little simpler. Do you still want this calculated out?

he means the Crossbowman Archetype version of Deadshot

Grand Lodge

pobbes wrote:
Alright, for argument's sake, let's just say the ammunition doesn't shrink. He bought large bolts, he could be permanently enlarged or something...

I don't think this works. Pretty sure gravity bow is the only way to increase the size of ammunition once fired. Any large bolts this character obtains become huge once brought into his enlarge person effect, so he can't use them.


I fixed the math because I forgot it's two damage rolls, not one.


Exocrat wrote:
pobbes wrote:
Alright, for argument's sake, let's just say the ammunition doesn't shrink. He bought large bolts, he could be permanently enlarged or something...
I don't think this works. Pretty sure gravity bow is the only way to increase the size of ammunition once fired. Any large bolts this character obtains become huge once brought into his enlarge person effect, so he can't use them.

It's safe to assume he's permanently Enlarged, then he bought bolts for someone of his size, and then cast Gravity Bow via wand.

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Odraude wrote:
Exocrat wrote:
pobbes wrote:
Alright, for argument's sake, let's just say the ammunition doesn't shrink. He bought large bolts, he could be permanently enlarged or something...
I don't think this works. Pretty sure gravity bow is the only way to increase the size of ammunition once fired. Any large bolts this character obtains become huge once brought into his enlarge person effect, so he can't use them.
It's safe to assume he's permanently Enlarged, then he bought bolts for someone of his size, and then cast Gravity Bow via wand.

Right. I was saying any bolts he buys increase in size the moment they enter his possession. Then reduce again once they leave his possession.

So an enlarged human buys large bolts. They become huge and he can't fire them from his enlarged bow. Alternatively, he buys medium bolts which become large upon entering his possession. As soon as he fires them, they once again become medium. Gravity bow would make them large.

In short, I don't think you can increase the size of your ammunition two steps.


Exocrat wrote:
Odraude wrote:
Exocrat wrote:
pobbes wrote:
Alright, for argument's sake, let's just say the ammunition doesn't shrink. He bought large bolts, he could be permanently enlarged or something...
I don't think this works. Pretty sure gravity bow is the only way to increase the size of ammunition once fired. Any large bolts this character obtains become huge once brought into his enlarge person effect, so he can't use them.
It's safe to assume he's permanently Enlarged, then he bought bolts for someone of his size, and then cast Gravity Bow via wand.

Right. I was saying any bolts he buys increase in size the moment they enter his possession. Then reduce again once they leave his possession.

So an enlarged human buys large bolts. They become huge and he can't fire them from his enlarged bow. Alternatively, he buys medium bolts which become large upon entering his possession. As soon as he fires them, they once again become medium. Gravity bow would make them large.

In short, I don't think you can increase the size of your ammunition two steps.

I don't think things get bigger automatically when you are enlarged and they are given to you.

Grand Lodge

The spell description says "All equipment worn or carried by a creature is similarly enlarged by the spell." This wording and its placement makes it unclear whether equipment acquired during the spell's effect changes size. I've always assumed it does. Could be wrong.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Looks that way to me, Exocrat. This would imply that if an enlarged character picked up a boulder or a tree trunk that item would increase in size as well, but also decrease when thrown. It could be that the RAI is that it only applies to equipment carried when the spell is cast, allowing anything picked up afterwards to work normally, but the RAW doesn't indicate this. If that were the way it worked, then the OP's plan of large bolts would work as long as he wasn't holding them when the spell was cast, or potion was imbibed.

Dark Archive

I think it's pretty safe to say that a permanently enlarged person doesn't have to worry about his chair expanding under him every time he sits down.


If he picks the chair up to use it as an improvised weapon, however, it becomes 'equipment carried' in a practical sense, is enlarged and does more damage as a melee weapon.


there's been another thread somewhere here, where the problem regarding enlarge is that items and gear you hold / wear when enlarged gets bigger, if you drop it then pick it back you, it is back to its normal size, so permanently enlarged, buying large bolts should work fine tbh.


Odraude wrote:

Base (with Gravity Bow): 2d8

Focused Shot: +4
G. Deadshot: +4
Crossbow Expert: +2
Weapon Specialization: +2
Deadly Aim: +6

So it's:

(2d8+8+8+4+8+12)+(2d8+4)+1d6 frost+1d6 shock

As an aside, I did not account for enlarge person because it would lower your damage output by one because of the -2 to Dexterity. You are better off simply with Gravity Bow. Now, if he is Large Size AND has Gravity Bow AND large bolts, each bolt would go from 1d8 to 2d6. It'd become:

(4d6+8+6+4+8+12)+(4d6+4)+1d6 frost+1d6 shock

Thank you for your input. That is what I was looking for. So, let me mention a few things.

I didn't mean for this to be a discussion of the enlarge person and gravity bow effects. In my group, there is no contention with enlarged individiuals using larger equipement. So, Larry could easily be using a large crossbow with large bolts. Also, gravity bow could have come from a wand so that's not really pertinent to my confusion. I really wrote it with potions because it was easier to write in my informal style I was using in the op. And, let's not change his dex score from enlarge becuase I don't want to track too much info.

On to the real questions, which odraude you are helping to clear up. So, we can use vital strike and focused shot on the same shot. With the enlarged and bow effects stacking, the damage for the crossbow would actually by 3d6, and I specified imp. vital strike so the damage dice would really be 9d6. I can do the math for the first bolt which matches your numbers:
9d6 (i.v.s. of 3d6) + 2 (magic weapon) + 2 (crosbow expert) + 2 (weap. spec.) + 4 (gr. deadshot) + 4 (focused shot) + 6 (deadly aim) + 6 (dev. strike) + 1d6 frost + 1d6 shock for a grand total of

9d6 + 1d6 frost + 1d6 shock + 26

This seems like a nice chunk of damage for a touch attack. Now, for the second bolt you seemed to have doubled alot of the numbers, but not dev. strike which I agree should not be doubled. You didn't double the frost and shock which I think is one of the things which would definitely be doubled from the dbl. crossbow. So, let's just say for the second bolt, we double everything except dev. strike. I'm coming up with an additional

9d6 + 1d6 frost + 1d6 shock + 20

for a whopping grand total of...

18d6 + 2d6 frost + 2d6 shock + 46 damage. I want to know if that is correct. That's my real question. Does everything just get counted twice since the double crossbow states...

prd wrote:
Double Crossbow: This heavy weapon fires a pair of iron-tipped bolts with a single squeeze of the trigger. Due to its size and weight, you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll if you're proficient with it, or –8 if you're not. If the attack hits, the target takes damage from both bolts. Critical hits, sneak attack damage, and other precision-based damage only apply to the first bolt. Reloading one bolt is a standard action; the Rapid Reload feat reduces this to a move action. Crossbow Mastery allows you to reload both bolts as a move action

Thanks for all the discussion so far.

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