every body does not consider it a belief system, many definitions, both common usage and specialist define atheism as a negative belief,Which is still a belief. If atheism is not a religion because it does not have a belief in god, then most of the religions which have ever existed (note that most religions which have ever existed have been animist, animaetist, pantheist, etc.) are not religions either because they do not have belief in a god either.
No.
DD this isn't complicated.
It isn't the 'not believing in a god' thing that makes it not a religion.
It's the fact that atheism isn't anything other than a single absence of a belief.
See, religions, like other forms of belief system, such as ideologies and philosophies, is made up of lots of individual, mutually supportive beliefs.
For instance:
1. There is one true god.
2. That one true god is Yahwah.
3. Yahwah created the world.
4. yahwah 's son is born and called jesus
5. jesus died for our sin on the cross
6. if you accept jesus, as your saviour you wont be going to the hot place.
7. Thor is not the god of thunder
You would not claim that alone 'thor is not the god of thunder' was a religion would you?
You would not claim that 'there is not a teapot, in orbit around the sun, somewhere between Jupiter and mars' was a religion would you?
So tell me, why is the statement 'there are probably no gods', a religion to your mind?
You know what makes this whole deal even messier? The fact that there is an actual religion going officially recognized as "Atheism", which is not what most what most people think of when they think of atheism (which is simply not believing in a god)... You can go blame the church of Atheism for this confusion.
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Not sure anyone here has said irredeemably stupid. I mean their are some religious folks who certainly seem to be, but I'm pretty sure this is the internet, and no one is saying ALL religious people are irredeemable stupid.Unless it's the Internet, in which case admitting you're religious gets you "irrational" and "irredeemably stupid."Just to show some of the ramifications of actually becoming an Atheist, mostly in the US:
Social SuicideI have to say, I've never seen an atheist shun someone for becoming religious (unless you count the over the top holier-than-thou born again types, who really push people away themselves).
From Page 1 of this thread:
I'm a militant atheist, believe that anyone with a faith is irredeemably stupid
This didn't get called out or moderated. It got favorited 4 times.
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When I said that I challenge people to prove me wrong it was in the context of Kirth claiming that what I presented as Christian belief is not.
Correction: I claimed that what you presented was not representative of all Christian belief, of a majority of Christian belief, or even of a significant proportion of Christian belief. Often, what you present as "Christian belief" is representative of a vanishingly small proportion of what self-identified Christians believe.
If you want to claim that the majority of self-identified Christians aren't real Christians, that's OK, but as noted, that gets into No True Scotsman territory.
Not sure anyone here has said irredeemably stupid. I mean their are some religious folks who certainly seem to be, but I'm pretty sure this is the internet, and no one is saying ALL religious people are irredeemable stupid.Unless it's the Internet, in which case admitting you're religious gets you "irrational" and "irredeemably stupid."Just to show some of the ramifications of actually becoming an Atheist, mostly in the US:
Social SuicideI have to say, I've never seen an atheist shun someone for becoming religious (unless you count the over the top holier-than-thou born again types, who really push people away themselves).
From Page 1 of this thread:
I'm a militant atheist, believe that anyone with a faith is irredeemably stupidThis didn't get called out or moderated. It got favorited 4 times.
My mistake, one person on in the discussion has called people of faith stupid, wow, how terrible. The favourites don't necessarily get you anything however, as they could be agreeing with other elements of the statement.
You know what makes this whole deal even messier? The fact that there is an actual religion going officially recognized as "Atheism", which is not what most what most people think of when they think of atheism (which is simply not believing in a god)... You can go blame the church of Atheism for this confusion.
You mean the First Church of Atheism, I assume? A paper mill which exists to allow a work around so that atheists can get married without dealing with priests.
The church of atheism isn't a religion, its a community body.
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It's the fact that atheism isn't anything other than a single absence of a belief.
Its cool that you believe that, but there are a lot of atheists who believe that there is a lot more involved in atheism - which is why they are pushing for atheist chaplains. These other atheists face a number of life's problems and seek an atheistic perspective/guidance in dealing with those problems.
For example, "in the absence of a God, how does one answer the question, 'how should I live my life?'"
No, perhaps actually reading about why non-theists and humanist are after chaplains would help. such chaplains will almost certainly be humanist.
Atheism has nothing to say about any of those things, humanism does, rationalism does, science does, but atheism doesn't. I am sorry you don't understand the difference.
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I'd imagine that a group of atheists (or at least irreligious) wouldn't likely remain friends for very long with a member of their circle who became demonstrably religious.In my experience, we don't hang out in homogeneous "circles" or whatever. When I hang out with a group of friends, it's likely to contain a mix of atheists, agnostics, mildly religious, and devout. Had one friend who was a young earth creationist and used to challenge me about evolution all the time -- that didn't matter, we were still friends, both still spent time with our other friends as well. Religion (or lack thereof) is only a barrier if you let it be.
I'll be the bad guy. There are species of religious people with whom I have no interest in hanging out and with whom I would deliberately avoid socializing. I have no interest in wasting my personal time on a young earth creationist or one of the Phelps sort. I will include in the latter those who piously insist they're nothing like the Phelps Klan whilst agreeing with it on every major policy point except picketing. These people are not friend material. Neither is anyone who tells me a woman needs to know her place or the Holocaust is a great big lie.
I do count as friends religious people who fall into neither category.
You know what makes this whole deal even messier? The fact that there is an actual religion going officially recognized as "Atheism", which is not what most what most people think of when they think of atheism (which is simply not believing in a god)... You can go blame the church of Atheism for this confusion.Its certainly true that the language is messy.
Theism isn't a religion. In that sense, neither is atheism.
But, when most people in America are talking about atheism, I don't think they are using it in contrast to theism. They are contrasting it to Christianity. So, they are talking about a different kind of atheism then one would use when contrasting it to theism.Wait a second. When we talk about religion, we have to use an expansive definition that includes damn near every possible set of beliefs on the planet, but when we talk about atheism it's only what most people in America are talking about when they say atheism?
When most people in America talk about Christianity, belief in God is most definitely included.
For that matter evolution is excluded(if you go by the largest single group) ;)
Did you see where DD put the goal posts?
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WTB "Real Christian" decoder ring.
There are species of religious people with whom I have no interest in hanging out and with whom I would deliberately avoid socializing. I have no interest in wasting my personal time on a young earth creationist
I don't have a lot of friends, mostly because my standards in other areas are pretty high. That means that personal religious considerations usually don't come into it. Hell, one of my friends goes off about how the CIA Black Ops are using alien technology to hypnotize people at Creed concerts. I just steer the conversation back to outdoorsy stuff or blues music or something, and we're both happy.
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From Page 1 of this thread:
I'm a militant atheist, believe that anyone with a faith is irredeemably stupidThis didn't get called out or moderated. It got favorited 4 times.
Not cool. I apologize. EDIT: I suggest you flag it; I have done so (and should have sooner).
I don't believe that every religious person is stupid. In fact, that is obviously false.
I do believe that human beings are sometimes irrational, and that holding something to be true despite a lack of evidence is a perfect example of that irrationality. Being human myself, I often make emotional decisions -- but I generally don't devote my life to them, or insist that they were, in fact, completely rational. YMMV.
From Page 1 of this thread:
I'm a militant atheist, believe that anyone with a faith is irredeemably stupidThis didn't get called out or moderated. It got favorited 4 times.
I'd orginally ignored that post in the interest of not giving too much press time for oddball views, but since it's now a topic of discussion in iteself, I'd also have to condemn the tone, wording, and implications of that quote in pretty strong terms.
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For example, "in the absence of a God, how does one answer the question, 'how should I live my life?'"
Well.
Darkwing,
Look, you really can't pick your own definition of something, ignore all the problems with it, and insist that anyone that uses a different definition than you one you picked and the way you interpreted it isn't using the right one. Picking the sea of faith as representative of Christianity is just as inaccurate as picking Westboro baptist church. (worse even, because the westboro types have a very active public relations campaign)
Not any belief is a religion. There are no "the chairexistsists"
Not anything you believe strongly is a literal religion. Greenpeace treehuggers for example hold their beliefs with more convictiona and show it more than most of the religious. They are not however druids.
Not every non belief is a religion. We do not call people asasquatchists. People come to a conclusion that ideas are false all the time.
This is a conversation between equals. You're not grading our papers. If you lecture at us it doesn't mean you're right and we're wrong. You can't just call people idiots for not agreeing with you, and especially your interpretations of things. You can't just pick one expert based on who agrees with your views and then ignore every other expert: that is functionally no different than declaring yourself THE expert on a topic.
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Earlier in this thread he was kind of denying the holocaust. Grammar is not the primary issue here. Although the irony of Grammar Nazism is fun.
One step at a time. Teach 'em to read, and you weaken TV Fox News' hold on them.
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I just looked it up, your Sea of Faith movement is estimated to have about 2,000 members as of 2004.
There are about 2.1 billion Christians in the world.
Your example accounts for less than 0.00001% of the christian population.
I will counter with the Catholic Church. It has 1.1 billion members. That accounts for 52.3%.
I never said that the Sea of Faith is the only atheist group of Church leaders. Its not. According to a study by the Free University of Amsterdam, 1 in 6 church leaders in the Protestant Church of the Netherlands is either atheist or agnostic.
Note that rather than making sweeping assumptions about what church leaders believe, I'm pointing to actual studies which show what they believe (in the case of the Free University of Amsterdam) or using the church leadership's own words (in the case of the Sea of Faith). If you are going to play the numbers game, then I expect you to provide actual references or evidence.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church
Mormon's also have very strong beliefs about God. In fact, they excommunicate people for all sorts of reasons, such as not being obedient to the church elders. They number around 13 million, or roughly the equivalent to 6900 times the membership of the Sea of Faith.
I'm not disagreeing that the Sea of Faith people exist, or that they aren't good people and potentially examples of how religion should act. I disagree with your premise that they represent even a significant portion of the christian population.
If I made a statement about how African children were growing up hungry and in poverty, would you respond with examples of the children of a few wealthy individuals and demand that they be considered representative of the population of the whole continent?
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@ bugleyman and Kirth: Thanks. These forums are usually pretty good at policing themselves of open hostility, but sometimes things slip through the cracks. Frankly I mostly notice when it's directed at a group with which I identify. You'd probably be more likely to notice if somebody said "all atheists must be blind" or other such nonsense. We are a diverse crowd and I'd hate to have an environment here where anybody felt unwelcome, whether you are Christian, atheist, LGBT, female, Communist, Cthulhu cultist, or whatever. Even furries, though I say that swallowing a deep personal distaste.
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Even furries, though I say that swallowing a deep personal distaste.
+10!
every body does not consider it a belief system, many definitions, both common usage and specialist define atheism as a negative belief,Which is still a belief. If atheism is not a religion because it does not have a belief in god, then most of the religions which have ever existed (note that most religions which have ever existed have been animist, animaetist, pantheist, etc.) are not religions either because they do not have belief in a god either.
No.
Nice dodge, squirmy!Nope. It's not a system of beliefs because there's no system.
You're trying to strawman here and it's not going to go. No one made the argument that all atheists are irreligious, only that atheism is not a religion IN AND OF ITSELF, but rather a descriptor.
I will reiterate: If atheism is a religion, describe to me its tenets. Plural. Otherwise you're a sandman atheist, and a unicorn atheist, etc. merely because of your DISbelief in A deity.
We are a diverse crowd and I'd hate to have an environment here where anybody felt unwelcome, whether you are Christian, atheist, LGBT, female, Communist, Cthulhu cultist, or whatever. Even furries, though I say that swallowing a deep personal distaste.
Isn't that a rather unwelcoming welcome?
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If I made a statement about how African children were growing up hungry and in poverty, would you respond with examples of the children of a few wealthy individuals and demand that they be considered representative of the population of the whole continent?
After seeing his debate style in action many times, I am almost certain he would. It is his hallmark.
But what does 'God' mean? What does it mean to have 'belief in God'? I believe (notice how I said 'I believe' rather than made an unfounded assertion like you did?) that if you really investigate, most Christians in America will mean different things by those words. Some believe that God is an actual old man sitting on a throne with a long beard and maybe a small boy next to him. Some believe that God is a mystery which is beyond definition and, so, is just a place holder as it were for something beyond our imaginations. Some people believe that God is a symbol. Some people believe that God is our personification of some 'still small wind'. Some believe its all of these things.
When most people in America talk about Christianity, belief in God is most definitely included.
Artful misdirection.
Bravo!/golfclap
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But what does 'God' mean? What does it mean to have 'belief in God'? I believe (notice how I said 'I believe' rather than made an unfounded assertion like you did?) that if you really investigate, most Christians in America will mean different things by those words. Some believe that God is an actual old man sitting on a throne with a long beard and maybe a small boy next to him. Some believe that God is a mystery which is beyond definition and, so, is just a place holder as it were for something beyond our imaginations. Some people believe that God is a symbol. Some people believe that God is our personification of some 'still small wind'. Some believe its all of these things.
When most people in America talk about Christianity, belief in God is most definitely included.
You aren't the only one familiar with the gnostic traditions on here...I suspect more than a few of us have read "A History of God"
If you believe there is a supernatural power or force that can aid you in your daily life, that is a religion.
You are believing in the supernatural.
If you believe only in the natural, what can be tested and replicated, what conforms to the laws of the universe, you don't believe in the supernatural.
I don't believe in the supernatural. I believe all things conform to the rules of the universe. If something seems to not conform, it is invariably because we lacked understanding of the event, not because it was supernatural in nature.
That is the opposite of religion.
It's like the First Amendment. I'll defend your right to be a furry on the Paizo boards even if the thought of it makes me throw up a little bit in my mouth. YKIOK.
Isn't that the same trick Elinor used to get what you're taking as an insult through? I'm not particularly offended by either statement but my sense of irony is tingling.
Try reading the statement with homosexual in place of furry and see how it reads.
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I believe in the power of art to motivate people. Is that a supernatural or natural power in your opinion? Given how you've defined 'natural', I have to assume that you believe the power of art t motivate people is a supernatural power.
If you believe only in the natural, what can be tested and replicated, what conforms to the laws of the universe, you don't believe in the supernatural.
"I believe in the power of money to motivate people. Is that a supernatural or natural power in your opinion? Given how you've defined 'natural', I have to assume that you believe the power of money motivate people is a supernatural power."
See how your argument doesn't work?
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Well if it were a homosexual person saying that it's OK for me to be heterosexual even if he finds it personally distasteful, I wouldn't consider that offensive or even mildly insulting. It's OK for you to like broccoli even if broccoli disgusts me. That doesn't make you an idiot or a reprobate. Stating a personal preference (what I did) is not the same as painting an offensive stereotype on a group of people (what the post I quoted did).
I'd orginally ignored that post in the interest of not giving too much press time for oddball views, but since it's now a topic of discussion in iteself, I'd also have to condemn the tone, wording, and implications of that quote in pretty strong terms.From Page 1 of this thread:
I'm a militant atheist, believe that anyone with a faith is irredeemably stupidThis didn't get called out or moderated. It got favorited 4 times.
I learned back in Civil Religious Discussion that I could write pages about how religious people were not inherently stupid and get it read as the opposite; I just didn't bother with another sequel.
Some believe that God is an actual old man sitting on a throne with a long beard and maybe a small boy next to him. Some believe that God is a mystery which is beyond definition and, so, is just a place holder as it were for something beyond our imaginations. Some people believe that God is a symbol. Some people believe that God is our personification of some 'still small wind'. Some believe its all of these things.
A trend does not have to be absolute to exist. If you do a pie chart with what aspects people believe God has you wind up with a huge area of people who see it as an independently existing being and a small little sliver with a footnote on the side of the chart showing people thinking its a metaphor.
Stating a personal preference (what I did) is not the same as painting an offensive stereotype on a group of people (what the post I quoted did).
Whats the difference between a personal preference and a personal opinion? (which the statement you're objecting to was clearly labled as)
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Art is not the same thing as color, though.
Art can motivate people without using color. Seeing as how we're all geeks here, a good example of that is Maus by Art Spegelman. If I remember correctly, the only place Maus used color was on the cover of the book.
If you consider Art to be "magic" and "supernatural" feel free.
I find it to be completely natural.