Hey Paizo Messageboards!
So- ... bad news- ... yesterday my group had a TPK (well... mostly.. the rogue ran off- ... but landed himself in jail... sooooo we have to start anew).
Anyways, I've started to build my new character, and I'm planning on playing a necromancer for the first time in a long time (never in pathfinder)
My first question based on this is-
Do Zombies and Skeletons retain Armor Proficiency? I can't seem to find if it says so or not in the Zombie/Skeleton rules.
Also- What feats should I Cleric Necromancer take?
Command Undead seems like a no brainer- but what else?
Consider taking Undead Lord Cleric arhcetype. You give up one Domain for two bonus feats and an additional undead servant that takes eight hours to replace at no cost.
Feats: Spell Focus (Necromancy), Undead Master, Spell Specialization (animate dead).
Do Zombies and Skeletons retain Armor Proficiency?
I think so. A skeleton loses the base creature's defensive abilities and all feats possessed by the base creature.
However, the example Human Skeleton does not appear to be taking appropriate penalties for non-proficient armor.
With a BAB of +0, Strength of 14, when wielding a broken scimitar, it's attack is at +0 (and -2 to damage) which is correct for a broken weapon, but doesn't include the -2 penalty for wearing a chain shirt.
So either the statblock is wrong, or it retains proficiency.
What feats should I Cleric Necromancer take?
Command Undead seems like a no brainer- but what else?
Selective Channeling is great. If you're channeling negative energy, you'll want to exclude your party from damage living, or exclude any enemy undead from heal dead. (If you're somehow channeling positive, same deal only reversed)
I am running a true necro conversion, undead lord is a great a great archetype, one of the most important things to remember is the you can apply templates to anything you make with animate dead bloody, flaming skellys and curse, relentless, and plague zombies, mix and mach for even more undead fun.
Consider taking Undead Lord Cleric arhcetype. You give up one Domain for two bonus feats and an additional undead servant that takes eight hours to replace at no cost.
Feats: Spell Focus (Necromancy), Undead Master, Spell Specialization (animate dead).
I've already been glancing at the Undead Lord- .. and I'm thinking about it (not sure if I REALLY want the other Domain- or if I want the Arhcetype yet).
As for the feats- I'll take them into consideration- thank you!
Selective Channeling is great. If you're channeling negative energy, you'll want to exclude your party from damage living, or exclude any enemy undead from heal dead. (If you're somehow channeling positive, same deal only reversed)
Selective Channeling was already high up on my list :P
Technically, no. Mindless undead loose all feats they possessed. However, the examples in the bestiary are proficient with their equipment because a creature is always proficient with any equipment listed in its stat block.
See- I know they lose their feats and such- but it says they retain their Weapon Profs... so I figured they may retain armor *shrugs*
Classic Horrors Revisted. Any dedicated necromancer should at least have a pdf of that.
There's variants for skeletons/zombies that are pretty awesome.
Also, skeletal champions and zombie lords are variants as well, so you can create them. But they require extra stuff to make, so work it out with your GM.
Champions and Lords are on the create undead list so you cant make them for a bit with animate dead being a 3rd level spell you will be short on minions until level 5. there is a lessor version, in Um i think, that you can use at level 3 to make non-templated goons but if you want a minion at level 1 all i can think of that would grant you animate and create undead is undead lord
If traits are allowed you might also consider Gifted Adept: +1 to caster level of a single spell selected when this trait is gained. Which, in case of animate dead translates into 2 extra HD of undeads animated and 4 extra HD of undeads controlled. Together with Undead Master and Spell Specialization it greatly expands number or quality of undead minions you can field.
I am also playing a necro for the first time. My question is how does one advance the hit dice of your creations? Can you add pc lvls, or do you have to select a standard, bestiary monster with appropriate HD?
I was just reading up on this myself-... The rules say-
Hit Dice: A skeleton drops any HD gained from class levels and changes racial HD to d8s. Creatures without racial HD are treated as if they have 1 racial HD. If the creature has more than 20 Hit Dice, it can't be made into a skeleton by the animate dead spell. A skeleton uses its Cha modifier (instead of its Con modifier) to determine bonus hit points.
Now- .. what I want to know is- .. could you give them more HDs with Animate Dead? (during creation of course)... or are they limited to the HD based off its size (and what its race was in life)?
There is a 3.5 Dragonlance PRC called the Necrothurge for Clerics of Chemosh that might work well with the Undead Lord archetype.
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I am also playing a necro for the first time. My question is how does one advance the hit dice of your creations? Can you add pc lvls, or do you have to select a standard, bestiary monster with appropriate HD?I was just reading up on this myself-... The rules say-
Hit Dice: A skeleton drops any HD gained from class levels and changes racial HD to d8s. Creatures without racial HD are treated as if they have 1 racial HD. If the creature has more than 20 Hit Dice, it can't be made into a skeleton by the animate dead spell. A skeleton uses its Cha modifier (instead of its Con modifier) to determine bonus hit points.
Now- .. what I want to know is- .. could you give them more HDs with Animate Dead? (during creation of course)... or are they limited to the HD based off its size (and what its race was in life)?
Sadly, they are completely limited to racial hit dice. As in, if you resurrect a human skeleton, it only gets 1 hit dice no matter how many class levels it had. A human zombie gets a single bonus hit dice for being medium, so it gets 2 hit dice no matter how many class levels it might have had. This is something that hurts necromancers a LOT in a humanoid-heavy game. Because of this, I recommend talking to your DM ahead of time and making sure that he/she will be putting you up against things that you will be able to make into useful undead creatures at least some of the time. Otherwise, you're really not going to enjoy it, trust me.
Or better yet use finding good critters as an excuse to go adventuring. But yeah always always always talk to the GM before trying to run a necro, it is technically an evil act to raise anything.
One thing I've always wondered is, what is the difference between a necromantic wizard and an undead lord cleric? Do they both bring different things to the table?
One thing I've always wondered is, what is the difference between a necromantic wizard and an undead lord cleric? Do they both bring different things to the table?
Cleric gets animate dead earlier, can use channel negative energy to heal his minions and gets desacrate. Necromancer Wizard gets animate dead later and cannot channel negative energy to heal undeads/injure living creatures but get more versatile selection of necromantic spells - turning him into less a master of undead hordes and more of drain-the-life-of-your-enemies-and-trap-their-souls kind of necromancer.
I thought that there is an option for a necromancer to channel negative energy as well?
I thought that there is an option for a necromancer to channel negative energy as well?
The Necromancy arcane school gets:
Power over Undead (Su): You receive Command Undead or Turn Undead as a bonus feat. You can channel energy a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier, but only to use the selected feat. You can take other feats to add to this ability, such as Extra Channel and Improved Channel, but not feats that alter this ability, such as Elemental Channel and Alignment Channel.
I don't recall any further ability to change it into full channel negative energy.
This ability might be better than what some clerics can do, based on their CHA score.
Okay- new question for you folks!
Animate Dead, Lesser reads as
This spell functions as animate dead, except you can only create a single Small or Medium skeleton or zombie. You cannot create variant skeletons or zombies with this spell.
Does this mean- ... using this spell I can only control one animated Zombie or Skeleton- OR does it mean I can control just as many as I would with the normal Animate Dead- but I can only create one 'undead' per casting?
If you're using Ultimate Magic I'd recommend taking a quick look at Variant Channeling (Undeath)
It sort of shoehorns you into playing a cleric of Urgathoa, but chances are that might be where you fall anyways as a cleric Necromancer. The Undeath Variant Channeling is basically the same as regular channel negative energy, but better. It should stack with Undead Lord and it's 8th level power if I'm not mistaken, which is quite nice.
Okay- new question for you folks!
Animate Dead, Lesser reads as
This spell functions as animate dead, except you can only create a single Small or Medium skeleton or zombie. You cannot create variant skeletons or zombies with this spell.Does this mean- ... using this spell I can only control one animated Zombie or Skeleton- OR does it mean I can control just as many as I would with the normal Animate Dead- but I can only create one 'undead' per casting?
(you will have to make sure with your GM if he agrees with my interpretation): Lesser animate dead claims to work like the regular version - the only noted exception is that it creates one undead per casting instead of multiple, it say nothing about limiting number of controlled undeads and thus it should follow the rules for animate dead on that matter.
Another piece of advice to keep in mind is that animate dead works off of Caster Lvl and there are a few ways to boost it either permanently or temporarily. If you combine them with the spell Desecrate and the Undead Master feat for maximum efficiency things get even better.
These are the ones I know of:
Deathknell (+1 CL)
Gifted Adept (1 spell) trait (+1 CL)
Varisian Tattoo [necromancy] feat (+1 CL)
Moon Circlet ( +/- 1 or 2) Price: 20k gp
Orange Prism (Ioun Stone) (+1 CL) Cost: 30k/25k gp
Prayer Beads (Bead of Karma) (+4 CL) cost: 48k or 20k [for just the bead of healing/karama].
Total possible: +10 CL
I'm probably missing a few other methods and it's not normally feasible to pick up all of them, but every little bit helps to expand your undead horde.
If you want to gain access to Create Undead to start making more horrible creations a Candle of Invocation can allow you to prepare spells as if two levels higher opening up access earlier. Combine it with various methods of raising CL and you can feasibly start producing evil abominations as low as level 9. (I'd recommend the Wright or anything that has the ability to create and control spawn to add to your horde without the need for adding to your HD limit).
There is a sort of fun thematic of a tattooed necromancer sacrificing a bound foe on a desecrated alter to his/her fiendish god during the full moon and performing an blasphemous ritual at play if you take advantage of such things.
You can always keep uncontrolled undead in either a bag of holding, portable hole, or other such storage devices. They don't usually need to breath or anything.
So as far as feats I'd recommend (in no particular order):
-Spell focus [Necromancy]
-Control Undead
-Undead Master
-Selective Channel
-Extra Channel
-Varisian Tattoo [Necromancy]
If allowed a Dhampir as a race synergies very well with a class that channels negative energy due to it's negative energy affinity.
Hope this was helpful.
Well, consider making skeleton bombs (classic horrors revisited) or flaming skeletons - even at low HD thy can do their d6 damage before being finally dead :)
If you want deaders with class levels you have to go for intelligent undead and train them - I'd suggest taking a leadership feat and designating the creature as your cohort. With a cleric somewhat focused on channeling your charisma won't be bad either, so you can have a decent minio...errrm...cohort and a retinue of lowly skellies can fit nicely to the other slots for leadership as well.
A few classes make great necromancers.
But the Undead Lord Cleric variant and the Necromantic Wizard make the best choices.
Lets have a closer look
CLERIC: Not a bad front line fighter if the need calls for it, divine casting not affected by Armour, gets access to undead creating spells earlier and has the added bonus of the undead companion, be creative with this, I personally have an undead lord cleric that has a master crafted bone staff as my undead companion.
WIZARD: "Sir please these are my undead"
Not as versatile as the aforementioned cleric, however the wizard gets a nice little trick, necromantic wizards get a boost ability that raises the resistance of their undead horde.
All in all though clerics make the best Necromancers, especially with their healing abilities.
WITCH: What ho, a new contender... Wait hear me out, Should you have a party of 3 witches you may all take the coven hex, and thus whenever within 10 feet of each other count as a hags coven.
Coven: Whenever a group of hags are within 10 feet of each other they may combine their magic as a fullround action to perform the following spells as spell like abilities [CL9]
Animate Dead
Balefule PolyMorph
Mirage Arcana
ect ect
Spell like abilities have no material, somatic or verbal componets.
FEATS: Now if your GM is allowing some good old fashioned 3.5 goodness
<> Corpse Crafter - Undead Gain +4Str +2hp per HD
<> Destructive Retribution - EXPLODES dealing 1d6 + 1d6 per 2HD of negative energy damage, heals other undead ;p
<> Deadly Chill - Undead deal 1d6 cold damage with unarmed strike/natural weapons
These are applied to any undead you help create, all are from The Libras Mortis Supplement.
QUESTION:
As for variant undead, I'm not sure how they work, can someone help me out here, lets say a 3rd level cleric casts animate dead, and selects skeletons with the variant explosive skeletons, do they cost extra HD or require a greater caster level, the only thing I can see in Classic Horrors Revisited is a CR change.
A coven requires at least 1 hag to operate. (Witches using leadership to gain nothing but witches was extremely broken.) However, witch with occult patron is still a fair necromancer, grave walker isn't horrible either. Still, I'm not sure its the equal of the cleric necromancer.
Coven Hex: The Witch counts as a Hag for the purpose of joining a Hags Coven.
HAG [ PG 167 Bestiary ]
Organization: Solitary, Coven (3 Hags of any kind)
Coven: When 3 hags of "any type" gather, they can form a coven to gain increased magical ability. Any combination of Hags can form a coven, but green Hags are the most common.
Forgive me if Ive misjudged this, but the way I interpreted it was that a party of squishy witches could form a coven, besides keep them 10 feet apart or kill 1 of the 3 and the coven is broken, covens are easily disposed of and not easily repaired. The iconic Witch back-story for example. If this was repaired in an errata, then my apologies.
Coven (Ex): The witch counts as a hag for the purpose of joining a hag's coven. The coven must contain at least one hag. In addition, whenever the witch with this hex is within 30 feet of another witch with this hex, she can use the aid another action to grant a +1 bonus to the other witch's caster level for 1 round. This bonus applies to the witch's spells and all of her hexes.
Coven (Ex): The witch counts as a hag for the purpose of joining a hag's coven. The coven must contain at least one hag. In addition, whenever the witch with this hex is within 30 feet of another witch with this hex, she can use the aid another action to grant a +1 bonus to the other witch's caster level for 1 round. This bonus applies to the witch's spells and all of her hexes.
*Actually picks up his copy of Advanced Players Guide*
*Flip Flip**Reading Whilst Mumbling*
Curse the vague descriptions of Hero Lab, a pox upon their houses, lol fairly well, I admit defeat this day, the joust to you good sir.
Still not without its merit, as stated earlier Witches have ways of bringing Hags into their ranks, can the Planar Occultist summon one later?
I don't think a hag counts as an outsider, at least not the ones with the coven ability. However, a witch could get a hag as a follower with leadership, perhaps, and then the hag could take witch levels...
I don't think a hag counts as an outsider, at least not the ones with the coven ability.
A Night Hag is an outsider and has access to the coven ability. It can be summoned via Planar Ally spell for a Divine caster or summoned with Planar Binding spell for a Arcane caster. Or through a Gate spell if you want to reach for 9th level spells.
A Cleric Picks up Planar Ally at 11th level which coincidentally is also when he/she picks up Create Undead.
I also concur with shadowcat a Juju oracle makes for a very powerful Necromancer. It has some distinctly sweet advantages over the cleric if you don't mind the obvious specific shortcomings of playing an oracle over a cleric.