I just wanted to double check our numbers and make sure they were correct:
The party just slew a Gargantuan Red Dragon.
They should be able to get one Masterwork Half Plate suit, Medium, out of the hide (plus shield), correct?
The breakdown for Crafting is this:
1. Price
2. DC
3. Cost to make
For the following:
1. The price is double the normal armor. Half Plate is 600gp. However, it's considered Masterwork, so this is 750 gp. Doubling this is 1500 GP. That's 15,000 SP.
2. DC for crafting is 10+AC Bonus. AC Bonus of Half Plate is 8, so the DC is 18.
3. Cost to make is 1,500 GP. 1/3 is material cost, which is what the crafter has to pay. In this case, they already have the hide, so wouldn't this cost be 0? I'm sure there is some cost, since other materials are used. Would it makes sense to make the other materials be 1/6? That would be a cost of 250 GP.
I just wanted to make sure that the craft rules for crafting a Masterwork item would apply for this as well.
The player has just Craft Magic Arms and Armor as well; I'm assuming he doesn't also need to have craft armor?
What if the player wanted to make this magical?
I cannot seem to find what is needed for +5 enhancement bonus to armor...
nogoodscallywag wrote: What if the player wanted to make this magical?
I cannot seem to find what is needed for +5 enhancement bonus to armor...
You enchant it after making it.
You just need money to make a magic item (if you have needed preqs if it has any) and possible caster level (for some effects). Then make the check DC.
nogoodscallywag wrote: What if the player wanted to make this magical?
I cannot seem to find what is needed for +5 enhancement bonus to armor...
You would need craft magical arms and armor and (Bonus Squared x 1000) in gold.
+5 would be 25,000 gold off the shelf or 12,500 crafted.
nogoodscallywag wrote: 3. Cost to make is 1,500 GP. 1/3 is material cost, which is what the crafter has to pay. In this case, they already have the hide, so wouldn't this cost be 0? I'm sure there is some cost, since other materials are used. Would it makes sense to make the other materials be 1/6? That would be a cost of 250 GP. If he already has the hide then I would consider knocking off the price of the special material, i.e cost of normal mwk halfplate. There's more that goes into making a suit of armor than just the hide.
what spell would be used to enhance the armor with a + bonus? magic weapon won't work on armor, will it? Only thing I can find for armor is Sanctify Armor...
nogoodscallywag wrote: what spell would be used to enhance the armor with a + bonus? magic weapon won't work on armor, will it? Only thing I can find for armor is Sanctify Armor... There is no spell requirement for generic +1 to +5 armor or weapons, per the guidelines in the armor and weapon sections, and on pages 550-551.
It would make sense that magic weapon would be a prerequisite for +1 weapons and greater magic weapon for +2 or better weapons, but that's not technically a requirement.
Magic vestment or mage armor would seem logical choices for armor, if you wanted to add specific spell prerequisites to the creation of +1 to +5 armor.
nogoodscallywag wrote: what spell would be used to enhance the armor with a + bonus? magic weapon won't work on armor, will it? Only thing I can find for armor is Sanctify Armor... No spell listed. You need the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat and a caster level equal to 3 times the bonus you require, tops.
Can a spell like polymorph be added into the armor, which can be activated at will or per day basis? I should note the character is NOT a wizard but a rogue, and has only 1 or two spells but a plethtora of wands and staves, one of which has the polymorph spell...
if the person wanted Polymorph 5 times a day, the rules say this:
Charges per day = Divide by (5 divided by charges per day)
I have no idea what this means...
Does it equal this:
5 / 5 is the additional cost?
This is 1...this formula doesn't make sense.
Could it be the cost of the spell input (for polymorph it would be 25,000) times each day, so 100,000?! That doesn't seem right, either.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Adding polymorph (or form of the dragon I seems more appropriate in my opinion) is a spell effect. Checking the table, we find that adding a spell effect command word to an item costs spell level x caster level x 1800g; this assumes a default of 5 uses per day, without maximum total charges. For polymorph, this is 5 x 9 x 1800g = 81,000 gold. Quite pricy. Form of the dragon I is even pricier at 6 x 11 x 1800g = 118,800 gold. To make it affordable, I recommend cutting it down to once per day; this divides the price by (5 / uses per day) or 5, so polymorph once per day would be just 16,200 and form of the dragon I comes in at 23,760. If this is too confusing, an equivalent formulation is: uncharged command word spell effects cost (spell level) x (caster level) x (uses per day) x 360 gold; this gives the same values in all cases.
However, this is also trying to add two abilities on the same item (a spell effect and an armor bonus). Which means that the cheaper of the two effects is increased by 50%. For the 5/day version this means that the +5 armor enhancement is increased to 37,500. For the 1/day spells, increase whichever you choose by 50% since they are both cheaper than 25,000 gold.
Well, the character loves him some polymorph...he is making the armor himself, and has the polymorph spell on one of his staves, so pricing wouldn't be an issue.
I am a bit unsure of the steps of the process, as well.
Can the armor be made and the spell added along with the bonus all at the same time? Or will the armor need to be made with the bonus first, then add the spell?
The guy's character is 17 Rogue 1 Fighter, who has Craft Magical Arms and Armor and ranks in Spellcraft.
The group killed a Gargantuan-size Red Dragon and now wanted to make armor. They want to make one medium suit of Dragon Half-Plate (aka mastwork half-plate).
In figuring the total cost of the item once completed:
+5 Dragon Half-Plate, Polymorph 2 times per day
The costs: 1500 GP (half-plate) + 25,000 GP (+5) + Polymorph 2/day 12,960=
39,460 GP
Seem right?
And all that is needed is a DC 23 Spellcraft or Craft check...with a possible +2 bonus to the roll from an assistant?
The ungodly amount of time it will take you craft the full plate before you enchant it will make your head hurt. I suggest the Fabricate spell if you have it.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
How does he even have Craft Magical Arms and Armor? He isn't a spellcaster, that's supposed to require 5th level spellcasting. Master Craftsman feat, maybe? Regardless, it doesn't matter. We'll just assume he can do this.
In that case: the way to figure out the cost of making something from scratch is to figure out the retail price, then cut it in half. The retail price (also called the base price) for enchanting a normal dragonhide half-plate to a +5 dragonhide half-plate that casts polymorph twice per day on command would be as follows:
- Command word polymorph 2/day: 360 gp x (spell level 5) x (caster level 9) x (2 uses per day) = 32,400 gp
- +5 armor: 1000 gp x (+5 bonus) squared = 25,000 gp
- Surcharge for multiple different abilities on one item: 50% of 25,000 = 12,500 gp
Total: 69,900 gp.
If the character is doing this himself, he first needs to come up with the base item: in this case, the dragonhide half-plate for 1500g (you got this one right). Blackbloodtroll does have a point: the mundane crafting system in Pathfinder is totally, epically broken in every possible way. Use fabricate for this part, seriously. Fabricating a suit of dragonhide half-plate and a dragonhide shield from a raw Gargantuan red dragon hide requires only casting the spell and making a DC 20 Craft [armor] check. The caster can take 10 on this check (not 20). Note that it does actually have to be the caster who makes the check, which might be a problem since Craft [armor] isn't really a common skill for 9th level wizards. A 9th level cleric of Torag with the Artifice domain is probably a better bet.
He then needs to buy half of the total for the enchantment in raw materials: 34,950 gp. This represents things like eye of newt, toe of frog, feather of phoenix, mistletoe harvested with an adamantium knife under a total eclipse, Rovagug's fingernail clippings from before he was imprisoned inside Golarion... stuff like that. It's assumed he can source this stuff in any major city (don't wonder why, that's just the assumption), so he can just go on an epic shopping spree and get the raw materials.
Then he spends (69,900 gp / 1000 gp per day =) 70 days dedicated to crafting; this has to be in town, somewhere safe, where he isn't adventuring all day. And every day he has to produce a polymorph from somewhere; if this is a staff he needs to make sure it gets charged back up sufficiently, which might cost extra.
After that he makes a Spellcraft roll against DC 20 (5 + caster level, which is 15 for a +5 enchantment; polymorph is lower so it doesn't matter). He is permitted to take 10 on this check (not 20), so if his Spellcraft is at least 10 he's just fine. By bumping the DC to 25 he can craft at double speed, so he'll only take 1 month instead of 2.
And finally he has his item! I hope it was worth all that effort. Actually, a command word polymorph would be pretty useful for a martial character, so I bet it was!
nogoodscallywag,
Paul spelled out the costs for you very clearly.
Costs:
750GP Half-Plate (Not doubled due to character having the special materials already)
32,400GP Polymorph 2/day
37,500GP +5 enhancement (Price is increase 50% because it is the second effect on the armor)
Total:
70,650GP for +5 half-plate with Polymorph 2/day
Crafting cost is half that, so 35,325.
This will take 71 days to complete.
So Fabricate would just allow him to have multiple hides in case of craft failure?
Craft Arms and Armor Feat does need 5th level caster level. However, the Rogue has a talent a believe or some other ability that allows him to cast a spell or two. Doesn't this make him a caster with a caster level of whatever level the character is?
Paul, I'm not sure I remember how I came up with the cost of my polymorph spell, but you have the guy being caster level 9. A thought occurred to me...what if the spell is being used from a staff he has? The staff is CL 13...would this then mean the formula would be Spell Level x Caster level (staff, 13th) x 1800?
SO even if the character had all the hide he needed, he would still have to pay half?! Because I don't see any materials listed under crafting magical armor, and the spell is from the staff which doesn't require spell components to use. And he would have to cast Polymorph EVERY day??? I don't see that in the rules anywhere.
I think you're mixing too many things in at once. The order of things is
1) Craft the masterwork half-plate.
2) Enchant the masterwork half-plate.
So, for 1) You already have the dragonhide, so that material won't cost you anything. You still have to pay for the buckles and straps and whatnots of a standard suit of half-plate (300gp to craft). Fabricate will allow you to make the plate in a round, rather than whatever craft takes.
For 2) Yes, it will use the CL of the spell from the staff.
Fabricate just brings the non-magical crafting portion of the endeavor down to a manageable time scale. Instead of taking months to craft the base armor, it's done basically instantaneously. Though, for something with a high degree of craftsmanship (like masterwork armor) you'd still need to make the Craft (armor) roll to see if you succeed. (You may be able loophole this by Fabricating crude dragonscale armor and then casting Make Masterwork on it). If you've already got the scales and whatnot, I could see waiving most of the cost for creating the base armor.
The enchantments still cost money, though. The cost is assumed to be spent on the reagents used in the enchantment process. Enchanting equipment isn't just casting a spell at it over and over. You can justify the extra material components as magic items needed to lock the magic in or whatever you like. What those reagents specifically are is kind of just handwaved since it's not really important. The point is that you don't want your PCs just crafting anything they want for free if they have the spells. That kind of gear explosion would break the game. Crafting themselves still gets them a substantial discount (50% give or take) so it's still worth it. Now, if you've got your PCs running all over creation collecting enchantment components as well, that's fine, you can waive the monetary cost there, too.
The caster level of the spell effects from magic items isn't necessarily pegged at the caster level of the person/thing providing the effect. It can go as low as the minimum level needed to cast the spell but it can go as high as you like if you want to pay for it. It's your option.
Strictly speaking, you wouldn't need a polymorph every day while crafting the thing, just on the days that you are imbuing the polymorph effect. Since the polymorph portion adds 32,400g base price (higher if you want to increase the caster level), you'll spend 33 days on it at 1000g per day and need 33 polymorphs. You can increase the spellcraft DC to bring this down to 17 days and 17 polymorphs, if you like.
As for the source of the spell requirements, under Requirements:
Quote: A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect. For each day that passes in the creation process, the creator must expend one spell completion item or one charge from a spell trigger item if either of those objects is used to supply a prerequisite.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
The purpose of using fabricate is so that it doesn't take roughly two and a half years to turn the raw dragon hide into the mundane dragonhide armor. Seriously, crafting is broken. He still needs one hide per armor/shield combo. Just think of fabricate as allowing him to do mundane crafting at light speed.
Most GMs would not consider the minor/major magic rogue talents to be spellcasting, since it grants the rogue a spell-like ability, not an actual spell. (The main difference is that SLAs are automatically still and silent, so they can be used in armor, and they don't require materials or foci.) But if you want to let him do this, more power to you. I'm not the Paizo Police, I'm not going to stop you. Rogues usually have better things to do with their feats anyway, so if he wants to burn them on crafting feats instead, I don't think there's any strong balance reason to say he shouldn't.
The general assumption is items with spell abilities cast them at the lowest caster level which could actually cast that spell. Thus, polymorph, a 5th level spell, is considered to be cast by a 9th level wizard when cast from an item, except for staves which work differently because they can have multiple spells. He can always build an item with a higher caster level than this, but it's a lot more expensive and there's usually no reason to do this for anything except direct blasts; in this case, all it would do is increase the duration, which he probably doesn't care that much about.
PRD (emphasis added) wrote: To create magic armor, a character needs a heat source and some iron, wood, or leatherworking tools. He also needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being the armor or the pieces of the armor to be assembled. Armor to be made into magic armor must be masterwork armor, and the masterwork cost is added to the base price to determine final market value. Additional magic supply costs for the materials are subsumed in the cost for creating the magic armor—half the base price of the item....
If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the armor, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material components or focuses the spells require. The act of working on the armor triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the armor's creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)
The emphasized passages are the ones you seem to be missing. Crafting using spells from some other source such as an item isn't well explained, but I would say that since normal casters trying to craft something basically have to cast the spell into the item every day (including expensive components if necessary), using a magic item to get the spell expends charges.
Ah, I thought crafting it and enhancing it all at once was how the armor would be made. Clears that up!
I see the Fabricate spell, but the time isn't an issue for the character. He said he would rather save the money... his choice I suppose.
In either case then, the character only has Craft Magical Arms and Armor. Does he then also need to have Craft Armor in order to make the halfplate? He may need the Fabricate spell, after all!
If he's going to make the base armor himself, then he's probably going to need to make a Craft (armor) check in either case.
If he wants to do it the long way, it's going to take quite some time. Assuming he can make a DC20 Craft (Armor) check, it should take about 21 weeks. If you've got that much downtime, go for it, I guess.
With Fabricate, in order to make something with a high level of craftsmanship (such as masterwork armor suitable for enchanting) he'll need an appropriate craft skill check in addition to casting Fabricate. Depending on how you interpret that, he could possibly get around that by making a crude dragonhide armor from Fabricate without a roll and then casting Make Masterwork on it. But the rules under special materials seem to suggest that dragonhide armor only ever comes in masterwork varieties, so he may be out of luck there.
Sort of another direction for this topic, but still within the topic.. If you have a magical armor already, leaf armor +1, and want to add spell resistance 19 to it, would you only have to pay to have the spell cast once and then pay the 25,000 gps or what would the scenario be then? And if you wanted to make it +5? What steps would need to be taken and what would the damages be as far as cost? Would it still take x amount of days to add the magic or could it be done in one casting of the spell and a craft magical arms and armor check?
Most of the questions being asked here are pretty clear in the item creation rules.
"Adding New Abilities
Sometimes, lack of funds or time make it impossible for a magic item crafter to create the desired item from scratch. Fortunately, it is possible to enhance or build upon an existing magic item. Only time, gold, and the various prerequisites required of the new ability to be added to the magic item restrict the type of additional powers one can place.
The cost to add additional abilities to an item is the same as if the item was not magical, less the value of the original item. Thus, a +1 longsword can be made into a +2 vorpal longsword, with the cost to create it being equal to that of a +2 vorpal sword minus the cost of a +1 longsword.
If the item is one that occupies a specific place on a character's body, the cost of adding any additional ability to that item increases by 50%. For example, if a character adds the power to confer invisibility to her ring of protection +2, the cost of adding this ability is the same as for creating a ring of invisibility multiplied by 1.5."
So take the value of leaf(I'm not sure what that is, I'm assuming you meant wild) armor +1. So 16,000 + cost of the masterwork armor. Subtract that from the value of a wild armor +1 spell resistance 19. Which is 81,000 + masterwork cost of armor.
Result would be a cost of 65,000 to add the spell resistance 19 to it.
When enhancing an already magical item, you just figure the price of the complete item and subtract the price of the current item to find the upgrade price. Then conduct the crafting like normal using the upgrade price to determine how long it takes.
I mean Leaf Armor as listed here but I forgot that it's not just +1, it also has Fire Resistance. I think it's worth 18,000 gps, so that would take the cost down to 43,000 gps.
If you look here it says that spell resistance 19 costs what the +5 bonus costs. But upon reading this one could assume the cost is much higher.. 10,000 gps for every SR above 12.
Suffice it to say, this is very confusing.
HiJinx wrote: If you look here it says that spell resistance 19 costs what the +5 bonus costs. No, it says that SR 19 adds +5 bonus to the cost. So if you had +1 Armor, you now have to pay for a +6 bonus. That'd be [36,000 (+6 base price) - 1,000 (+1 Armor)] a 35,000 increase in the armor cost.
So in your +1 Leaf Armor of Fire Resistance example, it was costed at 1,000 (+1) + 18,000 (flat cost for resistance) = 19,000.
New cost is +6 base cost(+5 for SR 19, +1 for +1 enhancement bonus) of 36,000 + flat cost of 18,000 (for resist) = 54,000.
54,000 - 19,000 = 35,000 to add the SR. ("wild" is an add +3 ability, which is why the cost was higher).
All the above ignores the base masterwork armor cost (which would be 650, for the leaf armor), as it doesn't change.
Yes, this is a better deal than a Mantle of SR 19 at 70,000. But if your armor was +5, you'd end up paying 75,000 extra for your SR 19. The balance isn't perfect, GMs may adjust costs as they see flaws in the system.
I'm also unclear why armor seems to be an exception to the "50% extra" cost, as it is a specific body location, but with the "add bonus" escalation there wouldn't really be a way to do it . . .
Now, if it were already +1 Leaf Armor of SR 19, and you added the Fire Resistance, it might be that the 50% cost would kick in and you'd pay an extra 27,000 (18Kx1.5).
These formulas aren't perfect, obviously! In the end, it'll be up to your GM.
EDIT - Actually, I'll bet the "50% extra" is already built in to the flat costs on the armor abilities, as they would ALWAYS be an addition to an item taking a specific body slot. So disregard that. The Mantle is priced about right to stack on top of high-plus armor (which is something a chest-slot item could do), but it is interesting that you can get SR a LOT cheaper on low-plus armor.
Just a sidenote: before you add Spell Resistance to your armor you should know that your allies will have a harder time casting spells on you as well. It takes a standard action to drop Spell Resistance for 1 round.
Regarding a spell needed to craft magic armor enhancement bonuses (+1 for example) there is no spell required to do that. But, there is a spell that will boost armor or shield called Magic Vestment (cleric 3, core rulebook).
- Gauss
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
HiJinx wrote: Sort of another direction for this topic, but still within the topic.. If you have a magical armor already, leaf armor +1, and want to add spell resistance 19 to it, would you only have to pay to have the spell cast once and then pay the 25,000 gps or what would the scenario be then? And if you wanted to make it +5? What steps would need to be taken and what would the damages be as far as cost? Would it still take x amount of days to add the magic or could it be done in one casting of the spell and a craft magical arms and armor check? The general rule is... if you're making a change to an item that's already enchanted, you price the item as if it had been made that way from scratch, and then subtract the cost of the item in it's current state. At each stage, it's the final result that determines the price, not the road you take to get there.
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