Detect evil, discern lies, overpowered abilities?

[cmastah]

My GM has completely removed spells such as these from the game (heck, even in 4e he disallowed the changeling class due to its ability to change shapes) because he was worried about having his plans ruined. I told him that undetectable alignment was a low level spell that could most likely be added to an item to permanently grant the ability to a person (and that's IF such an item doesn't already exist, and that's IF an NPC who plans to mess with us doesn't have this prepared in advance) but he still considers it 'overpowered'.

How nasty is this ability for a level 1 spell that STILL wastes a spell slot? He doesn't know about discern lies, but once he finds out about it he'll take the same stance most likely.

I'm not asking for any arguments to make, since once he's made up his mind, he's unflinching on it. What I AM asking, is just how gamebreaking are they?

Even if we find out that half the court is filled with evil people, it doesn't tell us which of them is out to get us. Even if we deal with evil people, they won't necessarily try to harm us or ask us for things that would harm others (even evil people have people they love that they would send adventurers to retrieve life saving items for them).

What are some of the simple techniques a creature can do to avoid having its alignment/lie from being detected aside from the above mentioned spell? What are some of the scenarios where it wouldn't even matter?

[Cheapy]

Sounds like a crappy GM.

They are not gamebreaking at all.

[wraithstrike]

It is not that great. The spell takes 3 rounds to work, and is no worse than detect magic. Being evil does not mean you are guilty of any crimes, and discern lies requires concentration, and obvious spellcasting. It also has a will save.
Neither spell is an auto-win.

[Ishmell]

The prestige class Master Spy could be used for mid level NPC's. Especially in a court setting.

[Deadmanwalking]

Well, first off, Detect Evil doesn't even work on anyone under 4th level. Undetectable Alignment is also, as you mention, an easy solution. Indeed, a Wand of Undetectable Alignment is 750 GP and good for 50 days if you have anyone to use it (ie: any Bard or Cleric). And then (again, as you mention) there's the whole "His being evil doesn't mean he's the villain. Maybe he just cheats on his wife." factor.

And Discern Lies has a Save, so it's only better than Sense Motive because some people with high Bluff have crap Will Saves (and, I suppose, because you can use it as slightly better evidence in a court or some such). Point that out to him if he objects to it.

In short, I agree with others, removing these is kinda dumb and completely unnecessary.

[CommandoDude]

Sounds like your GM is super railroady if he's removing spells and races you could use to gather information.

[Kevin Andrew Murphy]

Honestly your villain is incompetent if they're in the first line of those to be questioned for any crime. A competent court intrigue villain will be manipulating other folk to do the dirty work for them and planting false clues to point the blame elsewhere. If you want to do some evil deed, place a frame for the evil deed around the neck of some hothead who'll get themselves killed while trying to defend their honor from those who'll besmirch it--even better if they're evil themselves. And a paladin who kills anyone who detects as evil if he has evidence to lead him to believe they're guilty? Seems like a good plan. Especially because you compromise the do-gooders by having them murder an innocent.

[gustavo iglesias]

He is one of those DM that thinks "their" game would be ruined if the story isn't told EXACTLY as they want. They don't GM (game-master), they ST (Story-tell). They want to tell a story, but they aren't good enough to write a novel, so they decide to DM, because that way they get a free audience: the players. They don't think the players are there to create the story as much as the DM is. They want the players to nod and applaud, roll some die (useless, becouse whatever they roll is not important. They can't kill the BBEG in the first turn with a lucky crit, or a SoD spell, and when they roll 35 in sense motive, they get nothing at all)

[blackbloodtroll]

How does he replace the paladin and inquisitor abilities?

[The Elusive Jackalope]

cmastah wrote:

What are some of the simple techniques a creature can do to avoid having its alignment/lie from being detected aside from the above mentioned spell?

Nondection.

[blackbloodtroll]

When the DM makes all the choices, including those that would be usually made by PCs, then the DM is just playing with himself, with some friends there to watch.

[cmastah]

My DM is interested in coming up with his own storylines and his own methods that really only make sense to him. We started this campaign with the promise of 'it's an open world', except when given the chance to partake in an important quest, apparently in a town of mages, we were supposed to think of going to the 'shadier' parts of town to get info on a long forgotten item (I explained to him that if in a mage city, the better parts of it don't know about where to even look for such a thing, why would the shadier parts be any different? Especially an item thats existence wasn't known until JUST NOW. He changed his stance in a heartbeat and told us that the info can be gained where we are at a higher price (even though we'd looked and found no trace of such information)). He also had us meet the cliched powerful/cool guy/guys that were going to be important later in this story but were just there for us to catch a glimpse of for the first time.

I should probably also mention that this is the same guy who said 'you see a dark room ahead of you', 'I have dark vision', (he looks shocked at the idea, then another player mentions that dwarves ALSO have darkvision), 'oh....it's a MAGICAL darkness'

Later on, we get word of a boat heading off to a dangerous island that most likely contains the amulet (we had no idea where to go at that point), so we get in. A pirate battle ensues (we're level 1 and he's created his own battle system for how the ship battles were going to be played out....with level -1's- leading the ships), then we head off to the island, we encounter more imps than we could handle, and just in case we COULD handle them, three POWERFUL demons appear, a guy with a protective spell then shows up and we hide near him and escape. Then we meet the commander that tells us to the effect of 'swear a blood oath or jump ship near demon island (which my cleric who could summon fresh water and could fish nearly did)'. We're now hobnobbing(sp?) with nobles trying to find out who's the bad guy between them by chatting with them (all this at level 1).

Most painfully of all, to 'enhance' the roleplay, he told us OUR facial expressions and OUR tone of voice will reflect how the character actually acts out. So if we have a naturally dull expression, our happy go lucky character now does too. He also added 'fame and infamy' points, comparing it to mass effect.

I'm trying to roll with the DM since the rest of the group don't really care but this is getting out of hand, I'm feeling like we're hearing little more than 'dance monkey, dance'.

EDIT: It also goes without saying that he's going to kick scrying to the curb along with anything else that works to that effect.

[Big M]

cmastah wrote:

What I AM asking, is just how gamebreaking are they?

Depends on the stories. They could be totally game breaking, or they could be totally useless. Imagine our real-life justice system in the if we could detect alignment and force people to tell the truth. There's be a hell of a lot fewer lawyers and police in the world. We'd also likely have some great politicians instead of those in power now. Many fewer stories would appear in the news, there'd be a lot less drama--in short, there'd be a lot less for heroes to do.

If the stories in your game are about justice, politics, murder mysteries, and such--yeah, these spells could circumvent all the political mechanations amd clue gathering that are the basis of the stories. A whole campaign could be solved in one evening of play.

Now if the various players and DM all want to play fundamentally different kinds of games, then that's a bigger problem. And it sounds like that may be the case. There's no right or wrong here, fundamentally (although he doesn't sound like someone I would play with). Just it may not be a match.

[UltimaGabe]

Big M wrote:

Imagine our real-life justice system in the if we could detect alignment and force people to tell the truth. There's be a hell of a lot fewer lawyers and police in the world. We'd also likely have some great politicians instead of those in power now.

A bit off-topic, but one thing I wanted to interject: If you think detecting alignment and zones of truth would promise better politicians, you're wrong. It would mean the politicians in power would be the ones who were evil and powerful enough to find ways to fool alignment detection and zones of truth.

[wraithstrike]

cmastah wrote:

'oh....it's a MAGICAL darkness'...

I'm trying to roll with the DM since the rest of the group don't really care but this is getting out of hand, I'm feeling like we're hearing little more than 'dance monkey, dance'.

Dwarves can see in magical darkness also. :)

darkness spell wrote:

School evocation [darkness]; Level bard 2, cleric 2, sorcerer/wizard 2

Casting Time 1 standard action

Components V, M/DF (bat fur and a piece of coal)

Range touch

Target object touched

Duration 1 min./level (D)

Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no

This spell causes an object to radiate darkness out to a 20-foot radius. This darkness causes the illumination level in the area to drop one step, from bright light to normal light, from normal light to dim light, or from dim light to darkness. This spell has no effect in an area that is already dark. Creatures with light vulnerability or sensitivity take no penalties in normal light. All creatures gain concealment (20% miss chance) in dim light. All creatures gain total concealment (50% miss chance) in darkness. Creatures with darkvision can see in an area of dim light or darkness without penalty. Nonmagical sources of light, such as torches and lanterns, do not increase the light level in an area of darkness. Magical light sources only increase the light level in an area if they are of a higher spell level than darkness.

If darkness is cast on a small object that is then placed inside or under a lightproof covering, the spell's effect is blocked until the covering is removed.

This spell does not stack with itself. Darkness can be used to counter or dispel any light spell of equal or lower spell level.

Yeah it does seem he wants to run a live action novel instead of GM. I am also thinking the other players are accepting it because they don't have a point of reference aka they have not had a better GM yet.

[Haladir]

cmastah wrote:

My DM is interested in coming up with his own storylines and his own methods that really only make sense to him. We started this campaign with the promise of 'it's an open world', except when given the chance to partake in an important quest...

Sounds like you have an inexperienced and/or bad GM. I'd suggest talking to him one-on-one, out-of-game, and share your concerns: he's railroading the players too hard, and you're not finding that sort of play very fun.

Table-top RPGs are supposed to be an interactive, communal storytelling process. I know that my players have sent the plot going in odd directions, and creative improvisation is one of the most challenging and rewarding part of GMing. There's a certain level of flexibility that both GMs and players need to have in order to make a good tabletop RPG truly enjoyable.

But the primary purpose of RPGing is to have fun. It sounds like you're not. That should be a big concern of the GM.

Some players and GMs don't click with each others' playing style. If that's the case here, you might want to find another group.

Back to the question at hand: Neither of these effects are overpowered, IMO. Detect evil only registers normal people (i.e. non-outsiders/undead/clerics of evil god) if they're 5th level or higher, and that's a tiny fraction of the populace. Undetectable alignment is a 1st-level spell that lasts all day.

Zone of truth makes its presence known, and targets get a will save.

Discern lies is a 4th-level spell, and targets get a will save.

Plus, there is deliberately no know alignment spell in PF.