Cost for maps?

[Will Pratt]

So I'm playing in a game and I want to buy a map of the continent a map of the "state" and of the city (sand point) so I went to the core and tried to find a price for maps but couldn't what is the price of maps or if they aren't priced what would you set them at? do you think that they should have a different price of should they have the same price? I've asked my DM what he wants to do but it's the first time he's running a game so we would like some feed back thankyou for the help :)

[Adamantine Dragon]

The thing about maps is... in a world without mass printing, they are very expensive if they are accurate.

In some paranoid cultures accurate maps could be seen as state secrets since they are the key to successful battle planning.

How much maps cost, how available they are, and how accurate they are all attributes of your GM's world.

In my custom campaign world general maps are common and cheap, but they aren't accurate or detailed enough for tactical purposes. Accurate, detailed maps are highly prized and expensive, and asking around town for one will definitely get you noticed by the authorities of most countries. Such things aren't considered important for the average person to have, and asking for one generates suspicion about what you intend to do with it.

It's all part of the tone of the world you want.

[TheSideKick]

knowledge geography will suit this need. the higher the check the better mental map your character has. its the way i play traveler type characters, but as AD said, its all up to your dm and maps range in value depending on effectiveness.

[Bob_Loblaw]

If we use the Knowledge (geography) skill as our basis, we can just use the questions the map can answer as part of the cost of the map. I would have a basic map start at 5gp. For every point of DC over 10, I would add 2 gold. So a map that is detailed enough to answer DC 20 questions about an area would run 25 gold. If it could answer DC 30 questions, then it would run 45 gold.

[Adamantine Dragon]

Bob, with all due respect using that system spending 100 gold would get you a map that detailed every pothole in the kingdom.

[master arminas]

In my game, there is a cartographer's guild. You can purchase maps from them, but they are made to order--they don't sell the originals. A basic map of Pendleton (the city my campaign is based in) costs about 10 gp. An expanded map of the Lake Abanfyl region is 50 gp. Maps of the North-Central Flaness? Much less detailed and in the 50 gp range. A map of the entire Flaness? Runs about 200 gp.

These are basic maps on rolled parchment, measuring about 18" tall and 36" wide when unrolled.

Now, you want detailed maps? Price goes up and usually takes three-to-five days, as a Master Cartographer has to hand-ink them. You're looking at 100 gp for a city map, 500 gp for a region or the North, and 2,000 gp for a map of the Flaness.

Foreign nations? Prices for city/region detailed maps--without the detail.

Still, my players like buying maps. They also never sell a map they find.

Master Arminas

[Obirandiath]

I like Arminias' price scale - that's about what I have used in my games also. I wonder if there is a way to figure out a definite price using Profession(cartographer) or something similar. You'd have to know how much area could be mapped in 8 hours using the tools available and how long it would take to copy a map. Magical means is always available, too. Perhaps the players could devise a unique spell that creates a map to a certain distance. Perhaps even one that moves with them or shows other things on it (the Marauder's Map from Harry Potter!).

[Axebeard]

I'd treat a map as a masterwork tool for knowledge(geography). Limit it to whatever size you want, but that's how I'd play it.

So 50 gp for a +2 to the checks. Waterproof bags not included.

[Bob_Loblaw]

Adamantine Dragon wrote:

Bob, with all due respect using that system spending 100 gold would get you a map that detailed every pothole in the kingdom.

It's not a map that most characters will have on hand until they start seeing level 4 or 5. Sure, they can afford it at level 2-3, but they have a lot of other things they want to spend gear on.

That being said, there are plenty of other pricing structures. I was hoping to find one based on what a sage would charge for an answer. Unfortunately, I can't remember where I saw it so I just made something up.

[Adamantine Dragon]

Bob_Loblaw wrote:

Adamantine Dragon wrote:

Bob, with all due respect using that system spending 100 gold would get you a map that detailed every pothole in the kingdom.

It's not a map that most characters will have on hand until they start seeing level 4 or 5. Sure, they can afford it at level 2-3, but they have a lot of other things they want to spend gear on.

That being said, there are plenty of other pricing structures. I was hoping to find one based on what a sage would charge for an answer. Unfortunately, I can't remember where I saw it so I just made something up.

I'm not meaning to be critical, your posts are among the most helpful on these boards, so please understand that I'm just pointing out the logical end result of this approach. I think you're on the right track with "knowledge: geography" or some other skill (local knowledge would also work), but cartography itself is a very difficult skill to master even if you know the area intimately.

I like Master Arminas's approach too. My approach is probably a bit too undefined, I may adopt his. It's very close in concept to what I do, but puts some more rigor around it.

The big thing is the realization of how important accurate maps are. Enemy armies would pay a ton of gold for a solid, detailed and accurate map of their enemy's lands.

Now, all of this is ignoring the rather blatantly obvious fact that we aren't talking about real world pre-industrialized societies here. In the PF world folks fly all the time and there are many ways to research spells which create maps much like taking an areal photo. But most of the game's economics ignore the probable impact of magic on the world because it's virtually impossible to predict and adjust to, so we do the best we can.

[zylphryx]

Bob is definitely on the right track, though the pricing is WAY off. After all, Masterwork Thieves' Tools just give a +2 modifier and cost 100gp.

As to the pricing, maybe 1gp/10gp/50gp for a map granting the equivalent of a DC 10 Knowledge (Geography), running with local/regional(national)/continental map. For every increase of 2 to the effective DC, double the price. So a DC 20 local map would run you would be looking at 32gp/320gp/1600gp, a DC 30 would run 1024gp/10240gp/51200gp, etc. This would help duplicate the cost for effort as well as the time to complete a truly detailed map (crafting at half cost would put creating a DC30 continental map as a truly extended project, as it should be). It also helps avoid the "buy a cheap item to bypass the need for investing in the skill" syndrome.

Additionally, the DC10 maps should be readily available, but in nations of high security re: map information, finding a map of higher detail should also require a Diplomacy, Intimidate or Bluff check (most likely at the DC of the map +50% ... the more detailed, the more difficult it becomes to convince a cartographer to provide it when you are not a government official).

[DBlue]

Eh. Here's something I whipped up:

Map

A map is a sketch of an area, ranging from crude drawings of a town on cheap parchment to exquisitely drawn and detailed continental geography on expensive vellum. With a map, a character gains a bonus to survival checks to keep from becoming lost or avoiding natural hazards while in the area the map covers. The character can also make knowledge geography checks with a bonus regarding the area the map covers, even if untrained. If untrained, the character can only succeed up to a certain DC using the map. Most maps are available for populated and semi populated areas at the rough and standard qualities. At a DM's discretion, maps may also give circumstance bonuses to checks based on large scale operations such as trade, war, and governance.

Map(Rough) 10 gp
A rough map is typically charcoal on cheap parchment and only sketches the largest terrain features accurately. A significant amount of the map is guesswork, especially scale. Adventurers tend to be surprised by what a rough map leaves out. A rough map grants a +2 bonus to survival checks to keep from becoming lost or avoiding natural hazards. The caracter can also make knowledge geography checks with a +2 bonus, even if untrained. If untrained, the character cannot exceed DC 12 difficulty on knowledge(geography).

Map(Standard) 100 gp
A standard map, typically ink on good quality parchment, catchs all major and some minor terrain features. Most distances are somewhat accurate. Most traveling merchants have a map of this quality. A standard map grants a +3 bonus to survival checks to keep from becoming lost or avoiding natural hazards. The caracter can also make knowledge geography checks with a +4 bonus, even if untrained. If untrained, the character cannot exceed DC 18 difficulty on knowledge(geography). A standard map also grants a 10% bonus to daily travel speed.

Map(Detailed) 500 gp
Most detailed maps are used by governments, churches, and large organizations. They tend to have some color, show all major and minor terrain features, and be very accurate. A detailed map grants a +4 bonus to survival checks to keep from becoming lost or avoiding natural hazards. The caracter can also make knowledge geography checks with a +6 bonus, even if untrained. If untrained, the character cannot exceed DC 23 difficulty on knowledge(geography).
A detailed map also grants a 20% bonus to daily travel speed.

Map(Exquisite) 2000 gp
A Master Cartographer's masterwork. These full color microscopically detailed maps are incredibly rare. Only royalty, merchant princes, and high church officials typically have access to such maps. In fact, such maps are often considered state secrets. They show all terrain features in a stunning amount of detail to a an exacting degree of accuracy. A detailed map grants a +5 bonus to survival checks to keep from becoming lost or avoiding natural hazards. The caracter can also make knowledge geography checks with a +8 bonus, even if untrained. If untrained, the character cannot exceed DC 28 difficulty on knowledge(geography).
An exquisite map also grants a 30% bonus to daily travel speed.

Most maps only show relatively small areas. Larger maps or bundles of maps are available, but as size increases, so does price. For the area you want covered, multiply the price by the following multipliers. If the area has never or only partially been mapped, the price may increase as well at the DM's discretion, not to mention the time required to explore and map the area.

Local x1
Regional x3
National x6
Continental x12

[Adamantine Dragon]

Nice DBlue

[Tinalles]

In grad school, one of the classes I took focused on medieval cartography (across multiple cultures, not just Europe). One of the things I learned about those early maps is that they are VERY different from modern maps. Take a look at the Wikipedia article on early world maps:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_world_maps

It has lots of images of medieval and ancient maps (though many of the older ones, particularly from antiquity, are actually much more recent "reconstructions" based on descriptions, since the originals haven't survived). If you look over them, you'll note several things:

1) They are often schematic rather than representative. Take a look at the Tabula Peutingeriana, a 13th century copy of a 4th century map showing the public road system the Romans built. The focus of the map is on destinations: where they are in relation to each other, as you would experience it walking between them, rather than giving trying to depict distinct locations in relation to the land mass around them. It shows you rough distances and which turns you need to take. It's a map of a walker's experience of the roads, not of the land.

2) They are frequently expressions of ideology more than of geography. Look at Isidore of Seville's map of the world, which is a "T and O" map. It places the whole world in a large circle centered on Jerusalem (the O part) with a "T" formed by the mediterranean ocean. East is at the top. A map like this is not a map of the world; it's a map of a worldview, meant to express the organization of reality in religious and philosophical terms. This was the dominant model of map making through most of the Middle Ages, and the same kind of thing was common in other cultures (there was a particularly beautiful Sanskrit one I remember looking at in class, but I can't seem to find it again).

3) For those maps that do attempt to portray the actual shape of the land, the end result is rough at best. Scale and perspective vary wildly depending on the accuracy of the map maker's information. Often, coastal maps designed for navigators of ships were more accurate, because the navigators invested huge amounts of attention on working things out. "Lost at sea" is officially bad.

4) The accuracy of the maps tends to diminish the further you get from the location of the map maker. The old saw about medieval maps saying "Here be dragons" isn't entirely accurate -- the first recorded instance of that phrase I have been able to find dates to the late 1500s, where "Hic sunt gigantes pugnantes cum draconibus" was written over what appears to be South America. Earlier maps did have fantastic creatures, but mostly in the margins. In-map illustrations were mostly of locations, rulers, typical people of the area. The Hereford Mappa Mundi of the 13th century is an excellent example of this.

Lastly, maps were rare and expensive throughout the medieval period. They took a lot of materials (colored inks, large high-quality pieces of parchment, tools), and it took a lot of time, knowledge, and painstaking effort to make one.

With that in mind, let's turn to implications for the game world.

There are three things to consider:

1) Availability -- can the PCs get one?
2) Quality -- how good is it?
3) Utility -- what's it good for, in terms of game mechanics?

On availability, Golarion is very different from Earth. In much of the world, the level of culture is more advanced than the medieval period, particularly close around the inner sea region where it seems to be something like late renaissance or early enlightenment. Once a map is made it can probably be copied more easily -- back in 3.5 there was a cantrip called Amanuensis for copying non-magical writing, which probably would work on maps as well. I think there's even a cartographer's kit planned for Ultimate Equipment. And engravings of maps could easily be mass produced in areas that have printing presses.

That said, maps are not going to be equally available everywhere. A tiny village in the middle of nowhere is not going to have a map of the world, or even the local area. The locals know where local stuff is. They live there. So, for availability, I'd tie it to the settlement size chart from the core rulebook. Using that chart, local maps would be available in Village or larger settlements. Regional maps in Large Town or larger. World maps in Large City or Metropolis. In countries where printing presses are available, decrease that by two size settlement categories.

The quality of the map depends on the sources of information available to the map maker. A well-traveled cleric of Desna with access to Wind Walk could probably make quite a good map of large areas, both from her personal experience, and from the advantage of being able to fly up and get a bird's eye view. (But since Desna's joy in travel seems to revolve around discovery, I suspect Desnans tend not to make maps very much. Knowing what to expect diminishes theh experience for future travelers). A Diviner wizard with Overland Flight prepped could get much the same effect, and wouldn't likely have any particular compunctions about map-making itself.

Local and regional maps are likely to fairly accurate, then. World maps are a lot harder -- it's a big planet. The map maker will need to rely on reports from third parties for areas further away. The further off, the less the accuracy.

In game terms, I should add, a "local" map shows a small area -- ranging from about 1 dungeon up to 1 city. A "regional" map shows, essentially, one country (and maybe a bit from the borders of its neighbors). A "world" map shows either a continent (Avistan, Garund), or a the whole area covered by one of the primers (e.g. you would need separate world maps for Tian Xia and for the Inner Sea).

That brings us to mechanics. What could you use a map for on Golarion? The following things come to mind:

- Knowledge (Geography) skill checks
- Survival checks to avoid getting lost
- Profession (Navigator) checks to sail a vessel
- Whatever check you make for navigating during long distance flight
- Knowledge (Local) checks using local maps
- For local maps, locating hidden or out-of-the-way areas
- Also for local maps, coming up with a battle plan in advance of entering an area

I would treat this as a bonus to the PC's skill check, rather than replacing the skill check. If a map can replace a skill check, there's a strong incentive to ignore the skill altogether -- all it takes is some gold and then you're as good as somebody who put ranks in. The risk that the map might get damaged, or stolen, isn't a serious consideration. Anyway, players often get upset with the GM if their gear is stolen or damaged, and I'd rather not encourage situations where that can arise.

So the map would give a circumstance bonus on a skill check. The price should rise sharply as the bonus increases. I initially thought of doing it like Masterwork tools (+2, +4, maximum +6 bonus), but after some thought I compared the prices to +5 skill items from the wondrous items. A map is a mundane item, but if it has the same effect as a magic item, the price should vary similarly. For example, a Cloak of Elvenkind (+5 Stealth) has a price of 2,500 gp. Both Stealth and Kn(Geography) checks are fairly situational, so the two should be closely in line with each other. But magic items give flat bonuses in +5 increments, and a mundane item should offer smaller increments (for earlier entry) and a lower cap (there's a limit to how much useful info you can cram onto a map). So I settled on increments of +1, +3, and +5. The price should start fairly low, but rise sharply with the quality of the bonus. So I'm thinking of a formula like:

Market price for a map = map base price * 2 to the N, where N is the bonus

Base price for a local map: 15 gp
Base price for a regional map: 70 gp
Base price for a world map: 80 gp

Using that formula for each map type, it works out to the following prices:
local map +1 -- 15 gp * (2 to the 1st) = 30 gp
local map +3 -- 15 gp * (2 to the 3rd) = 120 gp
local map +5 = 15 gp * (2 to the 5th) = 480 gp

regional map +1 -- 70 gp * (2 to the 1st) = 140 gp
regional map +3 -- 70 gp * (2 to the 3rd) = 560 gp
regional map +5 -- 70 gp * (2 to the 5th) = 2240 gp

world map +1 -- 80 gp * (2 to the 1st) = 160 gp
world map +3 -- 80 gp * (2 to the 3rd) = 640 gp
world map +5 -- 80 gp * (2 to the 5th) = 2560 gp

Local maps are fairly cheap, but also fairly limited in applicability. How often do you need to make a skill check to navigate a city, say? But it would be in the interest of local merchants to produce local maps showing their businesses, in order to draw in customers. I think this works okay.

Regional maps and world maps are fairly close in price. That's because many campaigns -- especially adventure paths -- are restricted to one country. Having a high quality map of Ustalav would be very handy in Carrion Crown, for example. In that case, a world map isn't actually that much more useful than a regional one. But other campaigns do some serious globe-hopping. Having good maps of Avistan and Tian Xia would be very helpful in Jade Regent. So I decided to set their price fairly close to one another, with country maps a little cheaper because it's easier to gather the information needed to produce one.

Just because it caused me added pain, I would like to point out that although composing text in Polaris Office on Android is a lot easier than doing it Opera, you cannot actually do a select-all to copy it back to Opera. I had to email this to myself, only to discover that Polaris-generated .doc files crash LibreOffice. Opening it in Notepad++ and doing a search-replace for \x00 to get rid of all the NUL objects was the only way to salvage the text.

So there you have it. And there went my morning. Hope someone finds this useful, or at least interesting.

[Bob_Loblaw]

Adamantine Dragon wrote:

Bob_Loblaw wrote:

Adamantine Dragon wrote:

Bob, with all due respect using that system spending 100 gold would get you a map that detailed every pothole in the kingdom.

It's not a map that most characters will have on hand until they start seeing level 4 or 5. Sure, they can afford it at level 2-3, but they have a lot of other things they want to spend gear on.

That being said, there are plenty of other pricing structures. I was hoping to find one based on what a sage would charge for an answer. Unfortunately, I can't remember where I saw it so I just made something up.

I'm not meaning to be critical, your posts are among the most helpful on these boards, so please understand that I'm just pointing out the logical end result of this approach. I think you're on the right track with "knowledge: geography" or some other skill (local knowledge would also work), but cartography itself is a very difficult skill to master even if you know the area intimately.

I wasn't taking it personally. I don't know squat about cartography. I was just trying to tie it to a skill. I know that the cost should be something that low level characters have a hard time with affording but higher level characters shouldn't see as many problems affording. I don't have any idea of what that should look like though.

I don't have any problems with someone being critical of my posts especially when they are respectful and provide critiques instead of simple criticism. That's really what a critic should do: critique not criticize. I can't think of a time you haven't been respectful.

And as for those other two posts on maps...holy carp! That's a lot of work put into this. Both are really well thought out. Certainly more work than I would have put into it. Wow!

[DM Barcas]

With the usage of spells (especially fly), I imagine PF cartography is far more accurate than medieval cartography.