Oh for crying out loud LT, how do you know that he didn't? Ain't none of us on the jury...
Edit: Things like where Martin was killed are sort of a little bit documented.
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How do you know where Zimmerman's car was?
Already answered. Come on, you're not even pretending to be genuinely asking anymore.
How do you know that Martin escaped twice?
Already answered. Zimmerman says he's running, zimmerman starts running, then Zimmerman says he got away (so Martin escaped at least once)
How do you know that this path on the map is the one that Zimmerman took?
Because he walked through it with the police.
How do you know where the body was found?
Oh come on.
http://www.click2houston.com/news/More-details-emerge-in-Trayvon-Martin-inv estigation/-/1735978/13477984/-/xidvb9/-/index.html
http://www.flickr.com/photos/78797434@N03
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I'm not a fan of "guilty until proven innocent".
Except with regards to Martin, that is?
Not to be too snarky, but that doesn't answer my question; this is a message board, not a court of law, and so the voir dire process has no place here.
I'm fine with calling anyone who kills an unarmed teenager a murderer; if you can't understand why then I can't explain it to you.
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These are the facts that are not in any particular dispute.
1. Martin was walking home from 7-11 with no weapons.
2. Zimmerman was following him in a truck for a period of time.
3. Martin told someone he was talking to on the phone that some guy was following him in a truck.
If some guy in a truck is following me as it is getting dark, and then approaches me in an aggressive manner...
Now add to the fact the guy approaching me has a gun.
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The fact that some people are willing to judge Zimmerman as guilty before they even know what happened is sad.
He is guilty. He shot someone.
At this point the discussion is about level of guilt. He should not have been following the kid. He absolutely should not have approached the kid, period, full stop.
If I am a black kid in the south and some guy in a truck is following me while talking on a cell phone, then gets out of a car, I'm running. If he has a gun and catches me, I'm fighting for my life.
Zimmerman created the problem. Should he get the chair, no. He's an idiot, not a serial killer. But he is 100% the reason that the kid is dead, because he is the reason they conflict occured.
Now reality that may be in dispute, if he's not black, he doesn't get shot, because he wouldn't look "suspicious".
Speaking as a middle-aged white dude, thanks for the link, I hadn't seen it yet.
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approaches me in an aggressive manner...We don't know this
How do you follow someone for several blocks in a truck, and not approach them in a manner they can reasonably perceive as aggressive?
He isn't law enforcement, he has no badge, he's some dude who has been following this kid in an SUV truck (again in the south) who after being specifically told not to approach by police, got out of his car and approached the kid on foot.
Even if he got out and approached with a smile and offered the kid a stick of gum, the kid is being perfectly reasonable and rational if he's freaked out by this guy, or even pissed off because he's minding his own business, walking home, being followed and harassed.
All of this is Zimmerman's fault. The kid isn't dead if Zimmerman does what the cops tell him to do.
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he is 100% the reason that the kid is dead, because he is the reason they conflict occured.Not if the kid had the ability to run away and chose not to.
IF Martin had been a white 17 year old who had helped abduct a young girl and the fact that Zimmerman followed him helped him to be identified, Zimmerman would be celebrated as a hero right now. That's true regardless of the color of the people involved.
That's IF Zimmerman even followed him after the 911 dispatcher told him it wasn't needed.
If Martin was white, he never would have been followed or approached by Zimmerman.
You know that. I know that.
Unless you believe all good citizen should follow each other in case one of us is a kidnapper.
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Ok, showing photos of the crime scene= a lack of source? I've had enough being trolled.
To be fair to LT, I would be interested in knowing the source of these maps myself. The first one seems to be the most legit- it seems to be from ABC news and other sources(check the bottom and the website from which they hail). The other two look hastily thrown together- where are they from anyways?
What makes you say this, LT?
This is why I should know better than to bother responding to LilithsThrall. I've learned this before, but need to be reminded now and then.No one has yet said how BNW's map was vetted. How do we know it wasn't the result of an acid trip and then later handed off to BNW?So, it seems that for the last, like 100 posts, have been Citizen Thrall saying something that will get Citizen Meatrace or Comrade Inaros to say a whole bunch of stuff that can't be proven in a court of law and then he rips that stuff apart and then, say, Comrade Jeff says something or Citizen BNW posts a map and Citizen Thall continues to wail against Meatrace and Inaros again.
No offense, Meatrace and Inaros, but I think at this point Team Martin would be better off if you two would lay off.
Maybe I should have private messaged this, but whatever, I'm drunk.
I'm pretty intoxicated right now, Comrade Jeff: Are you saying I did a good thing or a bad thing? If a good thing: You're welcome and please check out FAWTL Refugee thread or Comrade Anklebiter's RS thread.
EDIT: Because I think you live in CT. FHDM, as well. Anyone else in the NE, as well.
EDIT 2: Not Ciretose.
What makes you say this, LT?What makes me think that its very easy to fake a crime scene - especially when there are no known forensics down on the photos?
I work in computer security. I'm familiar with forensics. I'm not claiming to be an expert in alleged murder scenes, but I do know how to fake evidence.
I have done some VERY scant work in forensics(mostly working with a coworker who does some anger management stuff with offenders), and I see where you are coming from. I am more than willing to take BNW at his word, but some sources wouldn't hurt.
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Even if we assume your map is accurate, he didn't follow Martin for several blocks.How do you follow someone for several blocks in a truck, and not approach them in a manner they can reasonably perceive as aggressive?
Are we looking at the same map? Let's make sure.
Here is the google satellite of the area..Those aren't individual houses. Those are rows of townhomes, each row about 100 ft.
So Zimmerman is at the mailboxes, the sidewalk between the townhouses is about 400 ft away, more than a football field.
So he parks his car on the street. Let's assume as close to the sidewalk as possible. It is more than 100 feet from the road to where the sidewalk turns, and if the map is correct, another 100 feet down the path where he was shot.
So Zimmerman followed him from at least the mailbox (I would guess sooner since he had to see him, identify him as "suspicious" enough to call the police, then call the police.) to where he was shot.
Streetview doesn't go into the complex, but you can get a good scale of the place by looking from Oregon Ave.
Even if we assume your map is accurate, he didn't follow Martin for several blocks.How do you follow someone for several blocks in a truck, and not approach them in a manner they can reasonably perceive as aggressive?
Are we looking at the same map? Let's make sure.
Here is the google satellite of the area..Those aren't individual houses. Those are rows of townhomes, each row about 100 ft.
So Zimmerman is at the mailboxes, the sidewalk between the townhouses is about 400 ft away, more than a football field.
So he parks his car on the street. Let's assume as close to the sidewalk as possible. It is more than 100 feet from the road to where the sidewalk turns, and if the map is correct, another 100 feet down the path where he was shot.
So Zimmerman followed him from at least the mailbox (I would guess sooner since he had to see him, identify him as "suspicious" enough to call the police, then call the police.) to where he was shot.
Streetview doesn't go into the complex, but you can get a good scale of the place by looking from Oregon Ave.
Interesting...very interesting.
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You know that. I know that.
Unless you believe all good citizen should follow each other in case one of us is a kidnapper.
A guy who thinks of himself as a neighborhood guardian finding someone who doesn't belong in his gated community in his gated community acting strangely and running when a call to 911 is called?
Yes, I think Martin would have still been followed if he were white.
You believe that Zimmerman followed every person who walked through that neighborhood, every night, regardless of race?
BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
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What makes you say this, LT?What makes me think that its very easy to fake a crime scene - especially when there are no known forensics down on the photos?
I work in computer security. I'm familiar with forensics. I'm not claiming to be an expert in alleged murder scenes, but I do know how to fake evidence.
Watching CSI doesn't make you familiar with forensics. FYI.
It helps that several witnesses came to the scene less than a minute after the event.
All of this is Zimmerman's fault. The kid isn't dead if Zimmerman does what the cops tell him to do.
I'm not sure I can comfortably say it is all zimmerman's fault. Yes, if he stays back (in the car? some have said he was already out and running when the cops told him it wasn't necessary) then Martin is still alive. But let's say Martin decides he has enough of this guy and just starts wailing on him even though the guy is not physically doing anything yet. If that is how it went down, then have to say that Martin has some blame as well.
Now if Zimmerman tried to jump him, then yeah, I will say it was all Zimmerman's fault.
But I don't feel comfortable saying that it is reasonable to start wailing on someone just because they are following you. Giving them the bird? Sure. Telling them to f-off? Go ahead. Beating the crap out of them? Nah, I don't think that is always justified.
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All of this is Zimmerman's fault. The kid isn't dead if Zimmerman does what the cops tell him to do.I'm not sure I can comfortably say it is all zimmerman's fault. Yes, if he stays back (in the car? some have said he was already out and running when the cops told him it wasn't necessary) then Martin is still alive. But let's say Martin decides he has enough of this guy and just starts wailing on him even though the guy is not physically doing anything yet. If that is how it went down, then have to say that Martin has some blame as well.
Now if Zimmerman tried to jump him, then yeah, I will say it was all Zimmerman's fault.
But I don't feel comfortable saying that it is reasonable to start wailing on someone just because they are following you. Giving them the bird? Sure. Telling them to f-off? Go ahead. Beating the crap out of them? Nah, I don't think that is always justified.
Is it the smart thing to do? No. Is it a 17 year old kid being literally chased by some creepy dude in an SUV down a back alley (which if you look at it, is what it was...) likely to hit first and ask questions later...
Zimmerman has no business following the kid to start with, and he definitely he has no business getting out of the SUV to pursue him down a back alleyway.
And this is all giving Zimmerman 100% benefit of the doubt that he didn't say anything to provoke a fight when he came up on the kid.
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I'll put my cards on the table as to what I actually think happened. Kid is walking "home" in a neighborhood he doesn't know very well. Zimmerman starts to follow him, kid sees him, gets nervous but plays it cool because he's talking to a girl on the phone. He ducks off the main road to take the back way to his townhouse to get away from the creepy guy following him.
Creepy guy parks his car and follows him. At some point Trayvon turns and says something like "WTF? Why are you following me?".
They argue, a fight occurs. Zimmerman is losing, so he pulls his gun.
None of this happens if Zimmerman stays in his car.
Now this is the most important part. If you look at where he was shot, this didn't happen at the top of the sidewalk, where Zimmerman could have stood and watched where Trayvon went. It happened in the middle of the sidewalk, meaning Zimmerman had to approach Trayvon.
Trayvon was walking away the whole time. In order for the shooting and altercation to occur where it did, Zimmerman had to close on Trayvon. If he were just observing, he could do so from the top of the sidewalk.
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You know that. I know that.
Unless you believe all good citizen should follow each other in case one of us is a kidnapper.
A guy who thinks of himself as a neighborhood guardian finding someone who doesn't belong in his gated community in his gated community acting strangely and running when a call to 911 is called?
Yes, I think Martin would have still been followed if he were white.
Except that Martin was returning to his father's girlfriend's house within that same gated community; he did belong there.
Walking While Black -- Trayvon should have known better.
So remember kids, especially if you're black:
When the creepy guy follows you into the dark alley, make sure to let him hit you a couple of times or at least grab you hard enough to leave bruises before you try to fight back.
Otherwise, when he shoots you, it'll be your fault.
Sick but accurate. :(
I don't think following Martin could be considered "stalking". Stalking requires repeated offenses of certain behaviour patterns not present in this scenario.Honestly, ask yourself, if say the cops had teleported to the scene and Martin claimed he was being "stalked"..by who? Someone who has never seen him before and has never seen him before?
Also, 911 dispatchers are not police,and "police" never told Zimmerman anything prior to the shooting.
Everybody seems fixated that Zimmerman shot Martin...nobody here has ever had the hell beaten out of them? Beating the crap out of someone is perfectly acceptable in certain circumstances. And so is shooting a teenager in the chest.Should be interesting to see how this one plays out.
I live in the ghetto,i can tell alot of people here do not, and have not. I know how these little hoods act, and have seen it first hand. Your sympathy is misguided, misplaced and rather puzzling.
I almost hope they find Zimmerman totally guilty so i don't fall prey to reprisals, because i wouldn't be surprised if neighborhoods burn and innocent,actual white people are assualted, or as in the past murdered in REAL cold blood.Look into the crime statistics by race btw all you skeptics. It's not "profiling" it's just good police work in my book.
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So when a black man follows you down a dark alley, you assume he's the neighborhood watch?
Or is it only O.K. if whites (or in this case, Latinos) do it?
Why do I suspect that if Trayvon was named "Brad" and he shot Zimmerman because he was following him down a dark alley, you would be arguing he was defending himself...
@XxAnthraxusxX And didn't you kind of deny the Holocaust in another thread? Like, this isn't me being sarcastic, just asking if that was you since that post was deleted since, you know, it was denying the holocaust.
Just ignore the racist troll.
I didn't deny the holocaust, i did however question the actual intent/statistics claimed etc. That isn't racist. You know there is another genocide going on as we speak, only it isn't quite as obvious as the one that the Nazi's were purported to have attempted. It happens everyday and as long as it is a white nation it's happening in it is completely ignored. It's called "diversity". You would be shocked to see what happens if it is attempted in any other type of nation. I wonder why that is.
I am not racist. If i was wouldn't i be calling for Zimmermans head on a platter? Like the majority of you?
Anthraxus, you disappoint me.