This came up in our game tonight. Does the radius spread of entangle travel upwards? Say, if you 15 feet up in the trees? If so, how is this clarified/described with the rules-as-written? Any help is appreciated. Please and thank you.
A spread spell extends out like a burst but can turn corners. You select the point of origin, and the spell spreads out a given distance in all directions. Figure the area the spell effect fills by taking into account any turns the spell effect takes.
A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, including creatures that you can't see. It can't affect creatures with total cover from its point of origin (in other words, its effects don't extend around corners). The default shape for a burst effect is a sphere, but some burst spells are specifically described as cone-shaped. A burst's area defines how far from the point of origin the spell's effect extends.
Spreads act like bursts, and most bursts are spheres. A sphere is a three dimensional figure. So yes, entangle travels upwards.
Yes it does by RAW but I don't think they intended it(the plants) it reach 40 feet up. The thing is that it will only be 40 feet up at certain points. Take the template in the magic chapter and imagine it as going up instead of side to side.
Of course I could be wrong. I do know that all other spells work in 3d according to Sean Reynolds, and if when you look at geometry the spheres and cones are 3d objects, so be by geometric design, and by developer input spells are 3d.
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Another interesting point to consider is that only Burst and Emination specifically say that they are a 3D shape. Spreads do say they extend in all directions like a burst, but is that vertical too, or just horizontal? The rules are not specific here whereas they are in the two previous situations.
The other question is how do you treat the effects of the Black Tenticles spell, as this spell has a similar effect, just a smaller area? Do you allow your Tenticles to have a vertical reach of 20 feet, or do they just affect creatures that are walking on the ground?
I think the written rules do indicate that these spells fill a volume (sphere), although personally I feel that these spells dont feel like vertical spells and would rule that they don't have vertical reach and only affect those creatures that are on the ground that are walking through the spell's area.
Core Rulebook, Magic chapter:
"The default shape for a burst effect is a sphere, but some burst spells are specifically described as cone-shaped. A burst's area defines how far from the point of origin the spell's effect extends."Just because things are normally expressed on a flat grid doesn't mean they're actually flat. Any effect with a radius affects a sphere, not a circle. A cone is a 3d area.
A line is a line, not a plane.
Ravingdork called this one correctly.
I agree. That is why I think those particular spells should have exceptions written in. I would not allow them to reach that high in the air.
I don't disagree with the rules as they are written, it's just that when I imagine the black tentacles spell, I don't visualize a ball of wriggling Tenticles, I visualize Tenticles emanating from the floor grabbing the legs of people walking by.
The tentacles still ONLY come out of surfaces, it is just the surfaces affected are in a 20' Radius sphere.
This allows you to airburst entangles and Black tentacles giving you almost full control over their radii without metamagic!
I think the key phrase of the spell is: "This spell causes tall grass, weeds, and other plants to wrap around creatures in the area of effect or those that enter the area."
I read that to mean: if you have a plant that was in your spherical AOE to start, then any creature in the entirty of the AOE would be effected.
(Also from Black Tenticles: "This spell causes a field of rubbery black tentacles to appear, burrowing up from the floor and reaching for any creature in the area.")
By RAW, I'm pretty sure it's a sphere.
Houserule, we always limit it to within 10 feet of a surface. Mostly because otherwise we forget. It's easy to remember when we have tree markers out and such, but otherwise people jump and fly over it and it's just easier for us to make that official.
The way I see it is this (with Entangle):
Obviously everyone in a 40 ft radius around the origin point who's on the ground gets entangled (assuming the origin point is on ground level too of course, and not cast 20 ft in the air, in whihc case the area is smaller).
Now the wizard W is using the fly or levitate spell to be 20ft above ground. He's still in the sphere of effect, but since he's in the air and not the ground, there's no plants there that can entangle him (I also don't see them reaching up 40 ft to grab someone).
However the archer A has climbed up on a nearby tree, to shoot his bow down at the enemy. He's also 20 ft high above the ground, on a branch, and also still in the sphere. In this case the branches would bend and grow to entangle him up there. Same if he was sitting up on a roof.
Of course, considering it's magic I wouldn't exactly have problems seeing the plants actually grow very high to grab even flying creatures, but I don't think that's the RAI.
I don't think it has come up with my group. But we would run it that if there are plants in the square the creature occupies, and that square is also within the 40' sphere of effect, then they would be entangled.
So, monkey in a tree? Yes, entangled.
Wizard flying in mid-air, no plants in his square? Not entangled.
Black tentacles we run as reaching up from the floor to grapple anyone in the radius, so yes, they are massive long anime style tentacles reaching 40' out.
Yes, Paizo changed the wording on Black tentacles in the 3.5 to Pathfinder transition. Omitted was the text that indicated the tentacles were only 10' long, so pathfinder tentacles can grab flying victims, unlike 3.5 tentacles which only molested ground based targets. So now the damn things are a pain in the butt for everyone.
massive long anime style tentacles reaching 40' out.
Anime tentacles are generally set apart from other types by their particular applications, moreso than any particular shape.
Erm, Black Tentacles don't have the fondness for body cavity violations that anime tentacles seem to have...
Please, dear Gods of Golarion, let's not mix the two...
Entangle is magic. Just as prehensile hair allows a witch's nose hairs to suddenly extend 10 feet, the roots or branches of plants can suddenly extend 40 feet. There's no "inconsistency" or "verisimilitude" problem with roots magically growing and then shrinking when the spell is over. That's what magic does. So by RAW it's a 40' sphere and there is no reason to say it "doesn't make sense" for plants to reach that far.
If, as a GM or play group, you want to interpret it as if the plants can only extend 10' then fine, but that's a house rule.
So by RAW it's a 40' sphere and there is no reason to say it "doesn't make sense" for plants to reach that far.
If, as a GM or play group, you want to interpret it as if the plants can only extend 10' then fine, but that's a house rule.
Not a house rule at all. The spell effects plants in the 40' radius. The plants do not grow at all and the DM has free reign to change the effect based on the plants affected by the rules of the spell itself.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/entangle.html#_entangle
Area plants in a 40-ft.-radius spread
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ;
This spell causes tall grass, weeds, and other plants to wrap around creatures in the area of effect or those that enter the area.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ;
Other effects, depending on the local plants, might be possible at GM discretion.
Then, it should ay creatures in the VOLUME of effect.I think the key phrase of the spell is: "This spell causes tall grass, weeds, and other plants to wrap around creatures in the area of effect or those that enter the area."
I read that to mean: if you have a plant that was in your spherical AOE to start, then any creature in the entirty of the AOE would be effected.
(Also from Black Tenticles: "This spell causes a field of rubbery black tentacles to appear, burrowing up from the floor and reaching for any creature in the area.")
Every AOE, weither a 2d or 3d structure, is defined as an Area Of Effect. Lights, darkness, and other things with an obvious 'source' are also called AREA of effects when they should obviously be going in 3d. I dont think a new keyword (volume vs area) is neccessary when it's explicit about the area being a radius from a source.
Entangle is magic. Just as prehensile hair allows a witch's nose hairs to suddenly extend 10 feet, the roots or branches of plants can suddenly extend 40 feet. There's no "inconsistency" or "verisimilitude" problem with roots magically growing and then shrinking when the spell is over. That's what magic does. So by RAW it's a 40' sphere and there is no reason to say it "doesn't make sense" for plants to reach that far.
If, as a GM or play group, you want to interpret it as if the plants can only extend 10' then fine, but that's a house rule.
Of course because it's a sphere, someone 20' up will have safe points within the Ground Area of affect, as the closer he is to the perimeter, the more likely he is to be in a safe zone. Only the very center of the Ground Area is going to affect targets 40' in the air. It's a Sphere not a Cylinder.
(rough drawing)
.........X........ 40' up
........XXX....... 30' up
.......XXXXX...... 20' up
......XXXXXXX..... 10' up
.....XXXXXXXXX..... Ground Level (assuming you want maximum coverage on the ground)