Cebrion, the rules for Wealth By Level (CRB p399) is not for NPCs, it is for PCs. The rules governing NPC wealth is on CRB p453-454.
The rules (guidelines, whatever) I am referencing for crafting and exceeding WBL limits are on Ultimate Campaign p173.
Those rules (guidelines, whatever) were created to specifically address the situation in your example (a single character or cohort crafting for the entire group or a single character benefiting from crafting far more than they should).
How you choose to implement this is not covered, it is a 'meta-rule'. Nothing in-character to rationalize it, just something to balance the rules elements.
Prior to Ultimate Campaign there were many arguments across the forums regarding WBL and crafting. There was even a FAQ (linked below) that indicated that only the crafter was allowed to benefit from crafting (only the crafter counted items crafted for himself at cost, all others counted it as price and thus had proportionately higher WBL values).
Adjusting Character Wealth by Level
You can take advantage of the item creation rules to handcraft most or all of your magic items. Because you’ve spent gp equal to only half the price of these items, you could end up with more gear than what the Character Wealth by Level table (Core Rulebook 399) suggests for you. This is especially the case if you’re a new character starting above 1st level or one with the versatile Craft Wondrous Item feat. With these advantages, you can carefully craft optimized gear rather than acquiring GM-selected gear over the course of a campaign. For example, a newly created 4th-level character should have about 6,000 gp worth of gear, but you can craft up to 12,000 gp worth of gear with that much gold, all of it taking place before the character enters the campaign, making the time-cost of crafting irrelevant.Some GMs might be tempted to reduce the amount or value of the treasure you acquire to offset this and keep your overall wealth in line with the Character Wealth by Level table. Unfortunately, that has the net result of negating the main benefit of crafting magic items— in effect negating your choice of a feat. However, game balance for the default campaign experience expects you and all other PCs to be close to the listed wealth values, so the GM shouldn’t just let you craft double the normal amount of gear. As a guideline, allowing a crafting PC to exceed the Character Wealth by Level guidelines by about 25% is fair, or even up to 50% if the PC has multiple crafting feats.
If you are creating items for other characters in the party, the increased wealth for the other characters should come out of your increased allotment. Not only does this prevent you from skewing the wealth by level for everyone in the party, but it encourages other characters to learn item creation feats.
Example: The Character Wealth By Level table states that an 8th-level character should have about 33,000 gp worth of items. Using the above 25% rule, Patrick’s 8thlevel wizard with Craft Wondrous Item is allowed an additional 8,250 gp worth of crafted wondrous items. If he uses his feat to craft items for the rest of the party, any excess value the other PCs have because of those items should count toward Patrick’s additional 8,250 gp worth of crafted items.
PC Wealth By Level: If a PC has an item crafting feat, does a crafted item count as its Price or its Cost?
It counts as the item's Cost, not the Price. This comes into play in two ways.If you're equipping a higher-level PC, you have to count crafted items at their Cost. Otherwise the character isn't getting any benefit for having the feat. Of course, the GM is free to set limits in equipping the character, such as "no more than 40% of your wealth can be used for armor" (instead of the "balanced approach" described on page 400 where the PC should spend no more than 25% on armor).
If you're looking at the party's overall wealth by level, you have to count crafted items at their Cost. Otherwise, if you counted crafted items at their Price, the crafting character would look like she had more wealth than appropriate for her level, and the GM would have to to bring this closer to the target gear value by reducing future treasure for that character, which means eventually that character has the same gear value as a non-crafting character--in effect neutralizing any advantage of having that feat at all.
Ultimately, these rules are guidelines (yes, rules are guidelines according to the Devs) and how you implement them or not is up to you. Since crafting is not part of PFS then they are completely open to being house ruled.
Limp UC guidelines aside, the linked FAQ did not prohibit other party members from benefiting from the crafter, unless I've missed something. They count at cost for everyone.
Without the FAQ everyone counts Price against WBL. The FAQ allows the crafter to count cost for his equipment. It did not state he could count cost for other people's equipment that he crafts.
In any case, the threads on that debate are years old now and the Ultimate Campaign rules trumps the 3 year old FAQ.
Well, thankfully the level of spell completion items can't be jacked up, but your point about money is not much of a point. As to character wealth in game and theoretical scenarios, character wealth per level is meaningless, because guess what my players are doing *right now*?. They are not being greedy, uncooperative, stupid fools, and so are pooling their money to have the magic item crafters make stuff to benefit the group. Pretty savy, no? So far they have made a wand of magic missiles (CL 5) and they have just made a wand of fireballs (CL 6), which cost 6,750 gp. They look forward to seeing it roast many enemies, and no doubt they will see it do just that. They have also made eight scrolls and a few potions. The downtime is not really a factor either (14 days to make the wand of fireballs; less for the others); merely relegating most magic item creation to downtime between adventures, or between parts of adventure series, which is what they are doing. How's that for theoreticals in a white room?
And this is perfectly acceptable if they are Level 6 in my opinion, but I'm waiting for one of this dreaded in-game example where the group pools money by selling their whole stuff to afford crafting this single imba item...
That's not happening any time soon I guess.And saying they are not greedy because they pool gold strikes me as odd, they are just greedy as a group for magic items, not individually for gold. It is not as if the group isn't getting something out of it^^
They may not be uncooperative or stupid fools, but greedy... I would argue that ;)
If greedy means putting aside individual gain so the group has a better chance at success then I would like to have had more "greedy" players when I was doing more playing than GM'ing.
Also not being greedy does not mean you dont want or expect to benefit. By that definition everyone is greedy.
Rules or not the printed text in UC provides a Paizo written solution to a problem some have based on gameplay. The GM now has to choose to take the advice, come up with his own idea, or do nothing and keep complaining.
The rules (guidelines, whatever) I am referencing for crafting and exceeding WBL limits are on Ultimate Campaign p173.
Those rules (guidelines, whatever) were created to specifically address the situation in your example (a single character or cohort crafting for the entire group or a single character benefiting from crafting far more than they should).
How you choose to implement this is not covered, it is a 'meta-rule'. Nothing in-character to rationalize it, just something to balance the rules elements.
And this is perfectly acceptable if they are Level 6 in my opinion, but I'm waiting for one of this dreaded in-game example where the group pools money by selling their whole stuff to afford crafting this single imba item...
That's not happening any time soon I guess.And saying they are not greedy because they pool gold strikes me as odd, they are just greedy as a group for magic items, not individually for gold. It is not as if the group isn't getting something out of it^^
They may not be uncooperative or stupid fools, but greedy... I would argue that ;)
The pooling of funds isn’t a problem. In my campaign, just having enough money at all is merely the first step on the path to creating a magic item. My magic creation rules are, by design, more…draconian. >:D Charcatealso can't cdate items with a higher CL than they themselves have (that is such a can of worms for the ultra low DC value they set for item creation in the game). Special materials are always needed, which might incur extra costs (and time) simply by needing to travel to get them. They might also need to find the right person to make a required item, and so on. It is also perfectly reasonable to simply tell players, “The materials or craftsman you need to make this particular item is unable to be found.” Money can’t procure what is not there to be procured. That will be very rare answer though, an reserved only for the making of an item which would really mess with the game. I’ve been doing this for a while, and there is a solution for everything. ;)
WBL is just a guideline for the DM though. The p.173 example in Ultimate Campaigns keys on on what I was thinking about, which is PCs created "on the spot" for a player. Such a PC will have a certain amount of money to spend on gear, and with item creation feats they could use that money to make items with a total real value far beyond their WBL guideline. That section really serves as a warning to both players and DMs that one should not go too crazy with the item creation if you are creating a PC with a level beyond 1st level: “However, game
balance for the default campaign experience expects you and all other PCs to be close to the listed wealth values, so the GM shouldn’t just let you craft double the normal amount of gear.” What going over the limit tells you, as a DM, is that it is likely time to start reigning in the handing out of treasure in minor ways, or begin to impact the wealth of the PC, which happens all the time for a variety of reasons. It could take the form of pickpockets/robbers, unexpected expenditures in the form of taxes, entering an area where things cost +15% of the CRB values, where selling stuff can only be done at 30% of the cost of items, etc. Guild/temple fees and required services are also options. These are all things the other PCs have been dealing with their whole adventuring careers. The n00b PC doesn't just get to skate by without "feeling the love" too. ;)
People need to remember this book was also written for those who have never played the game before, and who do not know what “acceptable” levels of treasure for adventurers may be. If such folks were to go by every visual reference they had ever seen, killing a dragon would obviously net adventurers a few dump trucks full of gold pieces, gems, and other loot. How many millions of coins is that? Heaven forbid they had only even seen the Hobbit movies, and Smaug’s treasure hoard is what they think to be “normal”. n00b DM: "The dragon is dead, and you have BILLIONS of gold pieces to spend!" LOL And so, yes, some guidelines were needed in the book. The chart does not give hard and fast limits though.
Thanks to you all for pointing out some oddball things to me though. Hope I haven’t been (or will continue to be) too much of a monkey wrench in the thread. :)
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I think there's a also an elf wizard favored class option that increases by 200g the amount of the magic item you can make per day, so at lvl 5 that wizard could make magic items in half of this time.
Wizard: Select one item creation feat known by the wizard. Whenever he crafts an item using that feat, the amount of progress he makes in an 8-hour period increases by 200 gp (50 gp if crafting while adventuring). This does not reduce the cost of the item; it just increases the rate at which the item is crafted.
Cebrion, then you are ignoring the statements on page 400.
Table 12–4 lists the amount of treasure each PC is
expected to have at a specific level. Note that this table assumes a standard fantasy game. Low-fantasy games might award only half this value, while high-fantasy games might double the value. It is assumed that some of this treasure is consumed in the course of an adventure (such as potions and scrolls), and that some of the less useful items are sold for half value so more useful gear can be purchased.Table 12–4 can also be used to budget gear for characters starting above 1st level, such as a new character created to replace a dead one. Characters should spend no more than half their total wealth on any single item. For a balanced approach, PCs that are built after 1st level should spend no more than 25% of their wealth on weapons, 25% on armor and protective devices, 25% on other magic items, 15% on disposable items like potions, scrolls, and wands, and 10% on ordinary gear and coins. Different character types might spend their wealth differently than these percentages suggest; for example, arcane casters might spend very little on weapons but a great deal more on other magic items and disposable items.
In the first bolded sentence we are told that table 12-4 is the amount of treasure a PC should have at any given level.
In the third bolded sentence we are told that table 12-4 can ALSO be used for the creation of a new, higher level PC.
So there are two uses and you seem to be focusing on only the one (newly created PCs).
Additionally, doing the math on table 12-5 (number of encounters per level * treasure handed out for those encounters) shows that the treasure handed out in 12-5 closely matches the treasure in 12-4 with an extra 30-40% bump that is used for consumables and sold items (second bolded sentence above).
Summary: WBL and the WBL crafting limits in Ultimate Campaign are rules whether people choose to call them guidelines or not (all rules are in effect, guidelines). People may choose to ignore them or not. But people who ignore them shouldn't then complain when crafting (which is based on these rules) is broken.
I understand both uses of the 12-4 table, and even for characters that are proceeding along, that table is still just a guideline. The is difference between the WBL chart and the XP chart for instance. The XP chart is rigidly defined. Characters don't need "about this much XP" to level up, it is EXCALTY the listed amount. On the contrary, the amounts on the WBL chart are *recommended* amounts, not EXACT amounts. As such they literally guidelines.
Read about the 12-4 table. The table is defined as showing amounts for an average fantasy campaign. Depending on what sort of campaign you want to run, the listed amounts can be halved or even doubled. Really, they can be made whatever you want them to be. You are not limited to using them as is, halving them, or doubling them either. Those are ALL just recommendations; once again, for n00bs who have never done this before. You have to give them a starting point for reference, and so they have. People who don't know any better would look at the numbers and say they are rules. "You can't go over the numbers guys! It's in the rules!" Well, the rules not only say you can do this, but expect that you occasionally will, as the game is somewhat fluid in regard to character wealth. N00bs might not initially know that, but experienced gamers should.
As such, the numbers listed are not THE definitive numbers for ALL DMs to use, or even a medium wealth campaign DM to use. They are just the suggested numbers for that level of wealth/magic. The 12-4 chart contents, by its own explanation, are guidelines. The numbers are not sacrosanct. If I were writing up guidelines for a Pathfinder sanctioned campaign, I would require the numbers be sacrosanct, but only in the interest of establishing a recognized level of play for everyone taking part so far as WBL is concerned. That is not the general case for player/DMs though, whose campaigns, and the events that occur in them, will vary from adventure to adventure. Sure, one should shoot for those numbers, depending on the style of play you prefer and the numbers you ultimately select (those listed, or otherwise), but some adventures might net more treasure, and some less.
The point of those numbers is only the recommendation that you come close to them for a desired "feel" to the campaign so far as the level of wealth/magic is concerned. They can be lower, or higher, and they often will be depending on what treasure is found, what of it is kept and by whom, or if it is sold at a lesser value. The numbers will fluctuate, and I surely am never going to tell a player, "Sorry, dude. Your character can't claim that item because he'll just barely go over his WBL limit. As everyone else is also now tapped out on the WBL, I guess you'll just have to leave it behind." Either that, or the next few encounters will be with thing that don't have any treasure at all, which is what the CRB recommends. Guess what? Things will work out by next level apparently, but then we all knew they would (because DMs can choose to make it so). ;)
Anyways, that is the reason why none of the sections in the various books talking about the WBL say "YOU CANNOT GO OVER THE LISTED AMOUNTS! EVER!!!" anywhere. The CRB allows for people purposely changing its numbers. Whether people do this or not, the CRB not only allows for discrepancies with those numbers- it expects them, and even gives recommendations on how to deal with it. So, there really is no point in arguing about the numbers on the WBL chart, as they are not set in stone. Saying they are is simply untrue.
Enough of that though. The creation process is not broken because of this at all. It is broken due to its ease, and due to the many ways it can be abused so far as what can be made and by whom. The use of a WBL, of whatever set values the DM chooses for its levels, is a good way of limiting the amounts of things for the players in general. I just don't think there are enough requirements that must be adhered to in the making of magic items. My creation rules are more limiting, and more challenging:
* A character who uses arcane magic, and has the requisite item creation feat, can create magic items with arcane functions. They may be aided by others who know/have the ability to use similar arcane spells or powers, even if the helper does not have the requisite item creation feat.
* A character who uses divine magic, and has the requisite item creation feat, can create magic items with divine functions. They may be aided by others who know/have the abilty to use similar divine spells or powers, even if the helper does not have the requisite item creation feat.
* A character who uses both arcane magic and divine magic, and has the requisite item creation feat, can create magic items with a combination of both arcane and divine functions. Alternately, such items can be made by two characters- one who uses arcane magic; the other divine magic- working together, so long as both of them have the requisite item creation feat (i.e they both know how to make the type of item in question, and so can fully pool their talents to create something beyond the scope of what either can achieve individually). Each caster may be aided by one helper who knows/has the ability to use similar arcane/divine spells or powers, even if the helper does not have the requisite item creation feat.
* A magic item cannot be given a particular function unless the creator has the ability to use a spell or power that mimics that function (at least somewhat closely, but preferably exactly, if possible), and the Caster Level of any item cannot exceed that of its creator. Ignore the +5 DC references, as no character will allowed to "pull magic that they have no knowledge of out of their butt", or make items that use magic of a completely different type (i.e. a wizard making a potion of healing; a wizard who doesn't now fireball making fireball scrolls, etc.)
* The DC for creating magic items = 10 + the level prerequisite of the item feat to be used + the item's caster level. Yes, harder to make items will actually be harder to make. For example, scribing a scroll of a 3rd level spell cast at 6th level of ability has a DC of 10 + 1 + 6 = 17, while crafting a wand of a 3rd level spell cast at 6th level of ability would have a total DC of 10 + 5 + 6 = 21.
* Whatever Skill is used to create a magic item, the creator cannot "Take 10" or Take 20" on the Skill Check.
* Proper assistance will gain a non-cumulative +2 bonus on creation checks, and reduces the time (but not the cost) to create items by 10%.
* At least one special ingredient/method must be used in the creation of any magic item (no bonus is gained for this, as it is a basic requirement). For example, the wand material for a wand of fireballs could be made out of metal forged in fire (brass is the metal of choice), or carved from the bone of a creature with the Fire type. Creativity is encouraged, but not any "6 Degrees of Kevin Bacon" sort of creativity. :P
* Using additional special ingredients/methods (beyond the first) will give a +1 to +5 cumulative bonus on the skill check per additional special ingredient/method used, at the DM's discretion.
* Creating an item at a place of power (a confluence of ley lines, item appropriate non-material plane, etc. for arcane magic; a high altar, item-appropriate non-material plane, etc. for divine magic) will result in a further +1 to +5 bonus at the DM's discretion (the more appropriate/powerful the place is, the greater the bonus).
* A failed creation check wastes half of the value of any materials used (excepting scrolls and potions, in which all of the materials are wasted), and uses all of the required time. The remaining materials may be used to try again by paying only for the remaining costs, though the second attempt does again require the full usage of time.
Net effect? Spell casters will be required to choose any item creation feats with the same level of care that other classes choose their feats. And evil wizards won't be making maces of disruption or holy avengers, clerics won't be making vorpal swords of speed, elves won't be making dwarven throwers, and orcs won't be making boots of elvenkind. And, if characters don't go about things carefully/thoughtfully enough, there will even be the slightest chance of creating a cursed item.
Did I ever state that you cannot go over? No, I was stating that those people who state that crafting is broken because of 'money' are ignoring the intended limits.
If you ignore the intent of wealth to be a limit you cannot then complain how 'too much money' (including pooling wealth) breaks things. That is what people here are doing which is why the WBL discussion is on topic.
Okay, not so much directed at me then. Still, I appreciate the discussion. :D
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Houserules
Two comments.
Your system- it is punitive for spontaneous spellcasters that have a limited set of spells and make Master Craftsman unusable (and the non spellcasting Dwarf or Elf making special items is a staple of fantasy);
- wasting all the materials when making a potion is making even less appealing a weak crafting feat. If you want to penalize a crafting feat, penalize Craft wondrous items. That is the strongest crafting feat.
About Brew potion and Craft wondrous items i have houseruled that the elixir and other use activated elixirs, oils and similar items are made with Brew potions, not Craft wondrous items to bolster a bit Brew potion.
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Did I ever state that you cannot go over? No, I was stating that those people who state that crafting is broken because of 'money' are ignoring the intended limits.
If you ignore the intent of wealth to be a limit you cannot then complain how 'too much money' (including pooling wealth) breaks things. That is what people here are doing which is why the WBL discussion is on topic.
The "normal" WBL for a 10th level character is above 46,000 gp (the norm for a 9th level character) and below 82,000 gp (the norm for a 11th level character). Generally it is above 62,000 gp in useful/selected items and money (the norm for a 10th level character) at the start of an adventure and less that that from his starting gear plus a lot of loot at the end of an adventure as they will use consumable and some gear can get broken.
The problem is that if the crafter craft for himself he will easily have 90.000+ gp of gear at the start of an adventure while the other guys will have 62.000 gp. You will reduce the total loot because 1 character is above WBL? It will be punishing for the other characters.
According to Ultimate Campaign the most a 10th level character can start with (price not cost) is 62,000gp*1.5 = 93,000gp.
And that takes multiple crafting feats.
I do not have to reduce loot, the PC has his 62,000gp with up to 50% of that crafted.
I am curious how you got from my post you quoted that I would reduce the loot for everyone else. I am pretty sure that is not what I said, or even meant.
What I did say/mean was that if you ignore (exceed) the WBL restrictions (including those in Ultimate Campaign) and then complain that the crafting rules are broken you have only yourself to blame. They are there for a reason.
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According to Ultimate Campaign the most a 10th level character can start with (price not cost) is 62,000gp*1.5 = 93,000gp.
And that takes multiple crafting feats.
I do not have to reduce loot, the PC has his 62,000gp with up to 50% of that crafted.
I am curious how you got from my post you quoted that I would reduce the loot for everyone else. I am pretty sure that is not what I said, or even meant.
What I did say/mean was that if you ignore (exceed) the WBL restrictions (including those in Ultimate Campaign) and then complain that the crafting rules are broken you have only yourself to blame. They are there for a reason.
How would you stop a character from using his feat? With Craft wondrous item alone and a character that don't use weapons and armor can easily increase his WBL by more than 50%.
It can depend on how your party divide loot, but the most fair way we have found is to keep some thing as party gear and then divide what is left in equal value shares, with the character "buying" what they want from the loot pile. The items are priced at sale value.
So crafter can easily say "I am interested in item X and Y that I can't make, keep the other items, I prefer the money". And then turn that money in the items he want.
As a large part of the loot is sold (who want a +1 ring when he already has one?) he will be the guy that turn the gold in more valuable magic items while the other will have to buy what they want.
Up to a point you can mitigate that putting in items that are useful for the other characters so that they don't need to buy their gear, but when "evil NPC 1" has exactly the +1 holy weapon the inquisitor want, "evil NPC" has exactly the +1 keen rapier the bard want and so on it strain my suspension of disbelief and that of most players I know (I don't use "credibility" as you don't like the use of that word for "consistency within the game").
What other ways there are to limit the sue of the feat?
"You can't buy components to craft magic item here" work until they get to a decent sized town. after that it become GM fiat.
"You don't have time." That affect all the party and is very dependent on the kind of adventure you are playing.
The WBL of a group and its members don't depend only on the GM, it depend on the inter party interactions too.
My group is playing Carrion Crown and we have found a interesting and somewhat disturbing book that can be sold for 5.000-20.000 gp depending on the buyer. AFAIK it has little or no in game effects.
The Dark tapestry oracle want to keep it. My magus is interested in it. the paladin of Adabar think that it is dangerous and should be sold only to a reliable group that will keep it safe.
End result? The oracle and my magus have brought the book at maximum price and the oracle is reading it.
15.000 gp for the oracle, 5.000 for my magus that don't have any direct effect in game but are in character. How do you count those against the WBL?
How I stop him? I say, "No". It is easy.
However, no player takes crafting feats in my games without my first discussing it with them. I will talk to my players about game balance and that there is no 'in-character' reason for the +50% WBL rule and that it is for game balance only. Either they accept that or they can take other feats besides crafting feats.
The crafter can have all the cash treasure he wants, he still won't exceed his WBL+25% (or WBL+50%). This is a game with rules. If the group wants to give him more (or less) than his fair share that will not change the entire group's WBL which will still be the crafter's WBL+25/50% +WBL of each other member of the group.
When it comes to the WBL of a group, I don't see how anything the players do will add to it. All wealth comes from the GM. Individuals within the group may have more, or less, than others in the group but the group total is completely derived from what the GM gives them.
Regarding a book that can be sold, if they choose not to sell a book that is obviously currency that is up to them. As a GM I can ask them if they will ever sell it and if they say no then I will discuss them setting it aside as 'non-WBL wealth'. But that is GM fiat because I am nice about things like owning things that have no effect on gameplay such as a house, a book, etc.
Two comments.
Your system
- it is punitive for spontaneous spellcasters that have a limited set of spells...
You think a spontaneous caster whose main class feature is purposely limited in magic should be able to make all the variety of things that any other sort of not-limited spellcaster can make? What is the point of that difference then, nothing? Sorry, they purposely chose the "You lack variety, but can chuck a TON of the magic that you do know!" class, so they will not only reap the whirlwind of awesome, but reap the whirlwind of suck too, just like a specialist wizard won't be able to make items that use opposed magic, or just like rangers and paladins do not have access to fighter only combat feats. The player chose the class for a reason, so they have to take the bad along with the good. And, it is not like spontaneous spellcasters choose the most useless spells to put into magic items anyways, do they. I think they will be able to get by. The tiniest violin plays the sad song of sympathy for them. :p
...and make Master Craftsman unusable (and the non spellcasting Dwarf or Elf making special items is a staple of fantasy);...
You are talking about D&D dwarves and elves, not Norse mythology dwarves and Tolkien/fairy tale elves, right? What you describe as a staple has never been a staple of D&D. Ever. The staple in D&D has been dwarven clerics making dwarven items, and elven wizards and clerics making elven items, not dwarven blacksmiths and elven making the items. Not that I don't like the idea of the feat, but my system doesn't disallow the use of Master Craftsman at all. I simply didn't bother to outline this feat usage as nobody in my campaign has it, and nobody is likely to get it either. A non-caster character really has to want to go down this path, and be built very particularly to do it well at all. A character with that feat will require something other than their tools and some materials to accomplish what they wish. They will need magic in one form or another, but it will need to come from outside agents. The process would be very ritualized, and involve additional rare sympathetic materials in addition to the spells. Those things would likely be combined in some special way even, such that their power is unlocked during the crafting process, thus allowing a non-spellcasters to do what they otherwise couldn't.
- wasting all the materials when making a potion is making even less appealing a weak crafting feat. If you want to penalize a crafting feat, penalize Craft wondrous items. That is the strongest crafting feat.
They are the easiest things to make. Potions have a DC of 12 to 14, total. Outrageous? I think not. Way too easy to get that total very, very quickly. Many 1st level characters have Int 17-19, and with even 1 rank in Spellcraft, the class skill bonus, and Skill Focus, even a 1st level n00b will likely start at +11 on their check, and 1st level potions an scrolls have a DC of 12. As you can see, I didn't exactly screw the n00bs over. :p Unless the player sets out to fail at making these simple things, it will be rather easy to make them on a 2+, or close to it. Of course, even if one fails to make one of these simple items, the loss is not very great, and there will be no chance of making a cursed potion or scroll.
About Brew potion and Craft wondrous items i have houseruled that the elixir and other use activated elixirs, oils and similar items are made with Brew potions, not Craft wondrous items to bolster a bit Brew potion.
I certainly agree with that. I would add anything that would be created using alchemical techniques- oils, salves, elixers, unguents, dusts, glues, pigments, solvents, potions, etc.
Question: When WBL says a 10th lv player should have 62,000g, does that includes all potions and any scrolls of raise dead that character may have used in the past? Like, every time you die its -5,000g from your wealth?
I've always assumed that most potions and scrolls we find while adventuring are "extra", for the party to use with no guilt. If you were to sell them, you'd hit the WBL cap sooner, but you can just use this stuff and eventually you'll hit the cap anyway, as long as there's no abuse, like buying a bunch of expensive potions and wands since you know the treasure pile would be bigger in the end.
To me, the important thing is that, around lvl 10, characters should have around 62,000g of non consumable items, so the party will probably be getting a little extra gold in the form of a few potions and scrolls (mainly raise dead) while adventuring as cash flow.
Kchaka, No, you do not count consumables that have been used.
During the course of actual gameplay 30-40% extra gp is handed out (via CRB Table 12-5) with the assumption that that extra gp will be lost selling stuff and replacing consumables.
Thus, at any given level the players should have about the wealth on Table 12-4 (WBL) and that includes consumables.
Although, a little bit extra for consumables wouldn't be unreasonable. I run it that way and it works well for my group.