Evil Assassin build, advice please

[Haskol]

Im working on a character for an evil campaign and was looking for advice on the build.

For a 20th level character, would it be more optimal to go for Rogue 5/Assassin 10/Master Spy 5 or Rogue 5/Master Spy 10/Assassin 5?

Both builds give a total of 10d6 Sneak Attack damage, which is a definite plus. However, Im not sure which would be overall better for your run-of-the-mill master killer.

The Assassin levels I would miss mean that I would not have access to Quick Death, Hide in Plain Sight, Silent Death and Angel of Death, meaning that he would be less able to do things like murder a group of people in a room without anyone knowing he is killing them.

The Master Spy levels would give bonuses like Shift Alignment, Fool Casting and Hidden Mind. I dont care about the Assumption ability, because that really does not seem all that great to me, but the permanent Mind Blank with a DC to bypass at 31 by 20th level seems almost to be worth it.

Im torn between those two overall builds, so any advice (even different builds if they keep with the same line of concept) would be welcome.

[Majestic8705]

Ehhh...Angel of Death really isn't worth it, imo, unless you're planning on killing other PCs as it still allows for bringing the dead back to life via higher level spells. Know how easy it is for a GM to res someone who requires a high level spell?

'Their minion cleric casts [insert appropriate spell name here]'.

And suddenly, the Assassin capstone is kinda useless. Flavourwise, its nice...but in terms of mechanics, its just kinda useless. The only real benefit to going full Assassin is the extra +1 on your Death Attacks DC. Which is really only gonna be remotely feasible if you crack out on your INT score from the get go...even then, its kinda terrible because if they make the save, you're not gonna have yourself a good day.

What I would suggest, is Master Spy 8/Assassin 7/Rogue 5 simply because this maximizes your Death Attack chance of success (because Master Spy levels stack with other sources of Death Attack...making the DC a total of 10+15+INT). The major problem with this one is, you sacrifice a fair amount from both sides. From the Assassin, you'll miss out on Hide in Plain Sight, and Swift Death. From the Spy, you miss out on the Hidden Mind. Also, to the build on the whole, you lose a d6 of sneak attack (this one would cap off at 9d6).

You *could* take the extra level of the Spy, but then you lose a d6 of sneak attack damage. You *could* also take the extra levels of Assassin to get the hiding and swift, but then you lose the Death Attack DC. I'm not a fan of either option because...well, those consequences are dire. The only redeeming quality of the build would be that comparatively high save or suck attack (as opposed to that of a 10 Assassin).

[Rasmus Wagner]

Ninja 20.

[Iced2k]

I've been toying with one that is pretty effective.

I've only played with it to 10 tho.

AntiPaladin 6
Red Mantis Assassin 4

Dual Sawtooth Sabres really takes advantage of the smite ability + a smattering of sneak attack.

The RMA's spell list runs off Charisma and covers all the bases.

Prayer attack is very nice too, and it's more likely to succeed than the Assassin's death attack as DA runs off int which a Rogue is unlikely to invest in as much as an Antipaladin will invest in Charisma.

You can enter RMA @ 7th, feats looks something like this:

1: Exotic Weapon Prof SS, TWF
3: Weapon focus SS
5: Alertness
7: Double Slice
9: Quick Draw

I should add my group plays with the house rule that Paladins/Antipaladins can also be the alignment of their deity.

[Hayato Ken]

Assasins Hips is the best hips in the game probably and pretty cool.
Quiet death is also quite nice.

However you can achieve most of this in other ways.
One possibility is take a ninja with invisible blade and assasinate.
The other possibility is take a rogue with said ninja talents.
Assasinate builds the DC of CHA and ninja/rogue levels

Skill focus stealth and hellcat stealth are smething to think of, replacing hips partly.

Mind blank is really cool to avoid being identified. But isnt there a ring that does the same?

[Haskol]

I suppose that at high levels the Angel of Death ability of the Assassin is not as good as it at first appears to be. Once I reach 20th, my opponents will probably have fairly easy access to True Resurrection, making the ability more of an expensive annoyance for them.

However, I would like to point out that you do not need to be an 8th level Master Spy to make the Death Attack harder to resist. The master spy's death attack ability states that you do not have to be an 8th level Master Spy to stack its levels with other levels in classes that grant Death Attack. As such, an Assassin 10/Master Spy 5 gives a minimum to resist Death Attack of DC 25 (10+Assassin 10+Master Spy 5+INT mod).

Ive already rules out RMA. I really do not like them and I feel like their abilities are more flashy and ineffective, not to mention the much higher prereqs when compared to the base Assassin. Sure, they have spells which I greatly miss from the Assassin, but its a very limited list that only takes from Illusion and Transmutation Sorc/Wiz lists. Also, an RMA also needs to buff their INT, because they have a large skill list with a lot of skills necessary (or at least highly useful) for a professional killer.

I will look into the Ninja as an alternative though.

[wraithstrike]

That is not how it works. The 10's don't stack. The class levels stack. That means it would be 10+5(5 from MS and 10 from Assassin). 15 + int mod would be the final result before you add in anything that boost the assassin's death attack. Note that it says you stack the levels. The "+10" is not a part of the levels.

Another issue is that you have to wait 3 rounds to observe the target, and if you fail then that is your last attempt for the fight unless hide in plain sight can help you. Stealth also sucks RAW so getting the drop on someone without being invisible is very difficult. Even if you get access to invisibility many high level monstes have things like true seeing as constant ability, blindsense, blindsight, and so on.

Many monsters have really high fort saves so you would have to pump your int just to have a decent chance for it to work. If you do that then you slow the progress with your attack roll which you need to hit. If you swing and miss your cover is blown unless you have greater invis up and running or something similar.

If you want an assassin concept rangers do it well. The idea of a one hit kill is difficult to actually pull off in the game.

[Haskol]

I think you misread my calculation for the minimum DC to survive the Death Attack. I didn't add the +10s. The minimum DC would be 10 (Base) + 10 (Assassin levels) + 5 (Master Spy levels) + INT mod.

When it comes to the 3 rounds of study, thats where the Master Spy levels really shine. It allows the Assassin to get up close and personal in a non-combat situation where no one expects anything to happen. Then you can study the target at your leisure and take them down. Also, as its an evil campaign, we are far less likely to go fighting monsters because we have much less of an incentive to do so. And even still, I can Bluff + Sneak Attack in combat with Improved Bluff feat. While I cant use my Death Attack in that situation, I can still put out high damage with Sneak Attack.

While the Ranger is pretty neat in that I can use the favored enemy bonuses to really mess with a few select races, Id much rather have the massive damage brought by the Rogue's sneak attack dice.

Finally, I looked at the Ninja and decided that I think its not worth it. The Assassinate ability cant be picked up until 10th level, 3 full levels after you can get Death Attack as an Assassin and sure it only takes 1 round of study, its DC is lower. Not to mention you need to have a high DEX, INT and CHA to get the most out of the Ninja. DEX and INT for the rouge stuff and CHA for the Assassinations and Ki points.

[Surbrus]

Personally I have been toying with the idea of an alternate entry into Assassin, by using Wizard.

Vanish, True Strike, Shield, Obscuring Mist, Silent Image (depending on how "if interacted with" is ruled), Feather Fall, Touch of Idiocy, Invisibility, Gaseous Form are all nice spells that could be very useful to an assassin. Bring a bunch of Pearls of Power with you and you have plenty of spells per day. Maybe pick up Silent Spells, so that you can caste while hidden (True Strike while hidden)... or even casting that spell while standing in plain sight, but your victim being unaware of your intent. Additionally the cantrips could prove useful.

As for School, maybe Teleportation subschool of Conjuration for a 10 foot DDoor 3+INT times per day (helps get around obstacles, helps infiltrating and remaining unseen), or perhaps Scryer subschool of Divination (a 2 round clairaudience/clairvoyance 3+INT times per day might be a helpful in remaining unseen, or finding your target.

A familiar could be helpful as a scout. And give you a nice little skill bonus.

You would be giving up 2.5 die of sneak attack, however the Death Attack will be stronger, and the arcane spells could be very useful. This would probably be less of a combat build, and more of a sneaky build depending moreso on the Death Attack ability, and hit and run attacks.

[Hayato Ken]

As a ninja you can either hide or disguise or just behave neutral, then attack to assasinate after 1 round. The DC a similar method: 10+1/2 cl+stat mod.

On level 20 ninja: 10+10+x
On level 20 assasin/ms/rogue: 10+14+x

So yes its 4 higher.

You don´t need a lot of int as ninja though, because you already get 8 skill points and you don´t need all skills maxed. You also get a lot of boni because you want a high DEX and CHA.
Instead of INT you can focus on DEX and CHA, using this ability perhaps even CHA over DEX and take the bomb tricks too, so you will end up with a higher CHA eventualy making up for this 4 points difference.

[Haskol]

For the Assassin/Master Spy/Rogue, the Death Attack DC would be a min of 25 + the INT mod. So at the very least, 5 higher.

Also, while the Ninja does have a lot of skill points, you also need to take into account the actual bonuses from your abilities. If your Ninja needs to get through something that is locked and trapped, having a low INT mod is going to hurt you, even if you have ranks in Disable Device. At higher levels, the DM will probably throw high level traps/locks at you which you will need every bonus you can get to get through unharmed.

Also, Ninja are just like Rogues (being an alt class and everything) meaning that they are skill bots. You need them for their skills. Many of their skills are INT based, so you want a high INT.

[Majestic8705]

Disable Device works off DEX now, doesn't it? In fact, pretty much all the 'must have' abilities of a Rogue type character are off DEX. With the exceptions of Perception, which is WIS and likely a dump no matter what you do, and UMD which is CHA and that makes sense for a Ninja to have on accounta ki.

In fact, the only skills in the game that are based off INT are Craft, the Knowledges, Linguistics, and Spellcraft. None of those are absolute 'must haves' for a stealthy type...useful, no doubt. But not critical.

As to your build: given that Spy and Assassin levels stack Death Attack regardless, it just comes down to whether or not you'd rather have one with more social abilities, or more combat abilities with the Spy being the social, and Assassin being the combat.

I'd say take the Ninja as your base class - they are generally closer to what you're looking for in terms of mechanics. The INT for either Ninja or Rogue is basically only gonna help you with your DA DCs and you're still gonna be left cracking it out as high as you can just to keep that ability viable. Then Assassin 9/Master Spy 6. That way you get everything worth having with the Assassin (including Swift Death), most of what you want outta the Spy (you miss out on Hidden Mind, and Fool casting), + full 10d6 SA.

Of course, going either full Ninja or Rogue is totally viable as well and would be my first choice. If, however, you want the 'flavour' of the PrCs, then 9/6/5 gets you the most bang for your buck, imo.