If anyone with improved unarmed strike can kick with no restrictions, since unarmed attacks can be made with feet, then why do creatures with claws suddenly get them. If I take IUS and TWF I don't see a rule saying I can't just use my feet.
There's nothing whatsoever in the rules that suggests that two attacks in an "attack group" - a fabricated concept to begin with - occur at exactly the same time, and any number of cases that suggest that they don't.
- A creature can use one of its claws, wait to see the result, then decide who it wants to attack with its other claw.
- An entire creature's immediate action or reading action or AoO or whatever can occur between the two claw attacks - potentially even killing the creature before it can make the second one. Potentially several of these things can even happen.
In other words, not only are attacks never neccessarily simultaneous, they're never simultaneous even if you want them to be. Of course, if nothing meaningful happens between the first and the second, you can fluff it as them being simultaneous, but that's just optional fluffing.
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There's nothing whatsoever in the rules that suggests that two attacks in an "attack group" - a fabricated concept to begin with - occur at exactly the same time, and any number of cases that suggest that they don't.
This, there is a another case you didn't mention, TWF with a double weapon. I'd really like to know how you can attack with both ends of a double sword, at the same time.
In other words, not only are attacks never neccessarily simultaneous, they're never simultaneous even if you want them to be. Of course, if nothing meaningful happens between the first and the second, you can fluff it as them being simultaneous, but that's just optional fluffing.
If one of my players decided he was going to do his primary and offhand attacks at the exact same time for awesome fluff, which is pretty damn cool, and the first attack downs or kills the enemy you can bet that the offhand is going to go into the corpse or soon to be corpse as well. Although this is going into house rules territory here.
Your "attack group" theory, saying attacks with the same BAB must be made at the same time.You misunderstand my intent, they must be made within the same interval as all the other attacks in the group.
If I take IUS and TWF I don't see a rule saying I can't just use my feet.There are also no rules saying that bipeds must use their feet to stand. Therefore, by RAW, the whole standing up point is moot (for my argument) as long as you are not tripped.
There's nothing whatsoever in the rules that suggests that two attacks in an "attack group" - a fabricated concept to begin with - occur at exactly the same time, and any number of cases that suggest that they don't.
- A creature can use one of its claws, wait to see the result, then decide who it wants to attack with its other claw.
- An entire creature's immediate action or reading action or AoO or whatever can occur between the two claw attacks - potentially even killing the creature before it can make the second one. Potentially several of these things can even happen.In other words, not only are attacks never neccessarily simultaneous, they're never simultaneous even if you want them to be. Of course, if nothing meaningful happens between the first and the second, you can fluff it as them being simultaneous, but that's just optional fluffing.
You misunderstand my intent, they must be made within the same interval as all the other attacks in the group, not at the same exact moment in time.
EDIT:Split up one of the quotes so I can address both points.
If anyone with improved unarmed strike can kick with no restrictions, since unarmed attacks can be made with feet, then why do creatures with claws suddenly get them.
Because claw attacks must be made in the same attack group, unarmed kicks can be iterative.
This, there is a another case you didn't mention, TWF with a double weapon. I'd really like to know how you can attack with both ends of a double sword, at the same time.
You can't, but you can use the exact same motion, which ends in a similar result.
Not one single person is arguing that you don't need your feet to stand.
You are creating the argument that for a person to kick once with each foot they must do so by having both feet in the air at once. That is your creation, not in the RAW.
Nothing whatsoever in the least tinyest little bit says that you have to have both feet in the air to make a claw attack with each foot. Nothing.
By RAW, you can kick with one foot, stand on that foot, and then kick with the other foot.
You are arguing for a houserule to the effect that if they use both feet claws then they must do a hand stand or it can't happen. Which is fine, for your home game. But its not RAW and its an unncessary nerf.
if my monk says "I headbutt the guy then kick him" you say "no prob"
if i say "I kick him with my left foot then my right" you say "no".
You are allowing fluff alter the game mechanics because you disagree that something can actually happen in the game world. Even ignoring whether or not someone can kick once with each foot without falling on their butt- its just not what the rules say.
I think everyone agrees that a biped needs one foot or the other on the ground to remain standing.
Not everyone agrees that this means you can't attack with both feet.
-S
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This, there is a another case you didn't mention, TWF with a double weapon. I'd really like to know how you can attack with both ends of a double sword, at the same time.You can't, but you can use the exact same motion, which ends in a similar result.
Or you can use the motion of pulling one blade back to drive the other end
You also have to prove that the game intends for you to not be able to kick and still keep your balance within your time of 1.5 seconds.
That is not RAW or RAI.
1.5 seconds is more than long enough to get two kicks off, and for fantasy characters, who are not exactly bound by what we can do, it would be more than enough time.
I present to you fast kicks
I think the video advertises 16 seconds.
One more 2:58 and 4:27, among other points. With more control that the other videos.
These dudes are probably just well trained, and not even world class athletes, certainly not on par with adventurers. In any event the idea that nobody can throw 2 kicks in 1.5 seconds had been proven false.
edit:Even I can put out two kicks in 1.5 seconds, but I don't have video of me so it was just the issue of using youtube to find someone who could.
If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first.
Emphasis mine.
If I understand what your point is, then you are saying that both attacks from TWF take place at the exact same time. Because of that, attacking with two claws on both feet for a biped would mean that they are unable to stand and thus incur some sort of acrobatics or maybe just simply can't take that action.
But look at the bold in the quote of you quoting the PRD: it specifically says that you pick to strike with one weapon first. This is important for a number of reasons (i.e. swapping targets if the first hit kills the target), and it shouldn't be ignored.
I do not think that there is any instance where you take two attacks at the exact same time. There is always the choice of target at the beginning of each attack. Ergo, RAW disagrees with you.
That being said, you are welcome to houserule it all to your heart's content, but that doesn't belong in this thread, especially when you do not clarify that what you are saying is a houserule.
You also have to prove that the game intends for you to not be able to kick and still keep your balance within your time of 1.5 seconds.
That is not RAW or RAI.1.5 seconds is more than long enough to get two kicks off, and for fantasy characters, who are not exactly bound by what we can do, it would be more than enough time.
I present to you fast kicks
I think the video advertises 16 seconds.
One more 2:58 and 4:27, among other points. With more control that the other videos.
These dudes are probably just well trained, and not even world class athletes, certainly not on par with adventurers. In any event the idea that nobody can throw 2 kicks in 1.5 seconds had been proven false.
edit:Even I can put out two kicks in 1.5 seconds, but I don't have video of me so it was just the issue of using youtube to find someone who could.
Truly you only do not show a video of your own powerful kick Oh Great and Mighty Lord Wraithstrike for the speed of your Magnificent kicks would drive your foes into unholy fear and terror.
Capoiesta's could kick with both feet but they would probably do a handstand first.In game terms, I believe that translates to "they performed an acrobatics check to not fall prone" :)
Probably true
There is definitely nothing in RAW suggesting that any attacks of any variety happen at the same time, whether it is twf, or natural attacks or anything else. In fact, as has been quoted above, the rules explicitly say all attacks happen in a sequential manner, none of them happening simultaneously.
On the subject of whether you can choose to have claws on your feet (through a class feature, or any other means other than being a race that explicitly says their claws are on their feet/hind feet), I can find nothing in RAW prohibiting this, although it is possible that it violates RAI, it kind of feels that way to me - but that is all it is, a feeling. I really can't confidently say it is against the intentions of the developers to have pc's with claws on their feet. I wouldn't allow it if I were GM'ing, but I would have to admit it is only because it seems wrong to me, not that I have a factual basis with which to back up that feeling.
...using both claws (on feat) to attack can be problematic if you plan on standing for the rest of the round. I find it cuts down on liberal use of both feet to attack.
TWF with both feet would be impossible if you wanted to stand in the same round imo.
It seems nonsensical to me that one would launch both feet in the air, kick with both simultaneously, then be standing the same as one would after TWF with 2 daggers.
Ok, aside from the whole falicious assertion that all attacks of the same "attack group" (something that is made up and has NO basis in the rules) happening at the same time thing... really? Really, you can't even imagine it? You can't imagine any scenario where both feat could be off the ground kicking something and then landing? Within a 6 second period?
Wow, you must have a pretty limited imagination if you can't even imagine things that happen in the real world ...much less in a fantasy game. Go watch a Kung Fu movie or something.
/snark
Also, Malfus... no comment on attacking with both ends of a dual weapon in the same "attack group" at the same time? How does that add into your equation?
To the OP: Look. You can do it. The rules allow it. There is nothing anywhere in the rules that state that all attacks in an "attack group" happen within a stated time frame other than within the 6 seconds that represent your round. Even if there were there is nothing stating that you can't make all of your attacks with both feet off the ground in a split kick and front snap kick combo. Regardless of whether you have claws on them thar feet er not.
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Truly you only do not show a video of your own powerful kick Oh Great and Mighty Lord Wraithstrike for the speed of your Magnificent kicks would drive your foes into unholy fear and terror.You also have to prove that the game intends for you to not be able to kick and still keep your balance within your time of 1.5 seconds.
That is not RAW or RAI.1.5 seconds is more than long enough to get two kicks off, and for fantasy characters, who are not exactly bound by what we can do, it would be more than enough time.
I present to you fast kicks
I think the video advertises 16 seconds.
One more 2:58 and 4:27, among other points. With more control that the other videos.
These dudes are probably just well trained, and not even world class athletes, certainly not on par with adventurers. In any event the idea that nobody can throw 2 kicks in 1.5 seconds had been proven false.
edit:Even I can put out two kicks in 1.5 seconds, but I don't have video of me so it was just the issue of using youtube to find someone who could.
I was trying to be modest, but you are correct. I am sure if I were to kick it would appear as though I never moved because I am way to fast for any technology that now exist.
Also... a funny thought here. If a Lion were to bite/claw/claw/rake/rake at the same EXACT time ... um, what appendage would he be using to stand with? His tail? Or would he only be "standing" in the sense that he is holding himself aloft only by means of his claws and teeth being stuck in his opponent's body?
Also... a funny thought here. If a Lion were to bite/claw/claw/rake/rake at the same EXACT time ... um, what appendage would he be using to stand with? His tail? Or would he only be "standing" in the sense that he is holding himself aloft only by means of his claws and teeth being stuck in his opponent's body?
You don't want to know the answer, as it would give you nightmares. Ok, you convinced me, I'll give you nightmares. The lion bites your head, grabbing hold of you, and most likely baring you to the ground, then bicycles his hind claws, ripping you to ribbons. Anyone who has tried to trim the claws of a temperamental house cat knows what I am talking about.
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Definately his tail.
It'd be like Tigger.
-S
Yes, a pounce involves pouncing upon the prey most of the time (leaving the ground entirely), and the rake mechanic emulates the whole "can't use all legs unless leaving the ground" mechanic that none of you seem to enjoy.
I will not get into that 21 kicks video, the problems inherent should be obvious.
The other video has a more subtle issue. Namely, that move is only possible as its presented because the target is immobile and therefore a good platform to push off of.
As to video with the double kick performed leaping from the ground, I would work with my players for some sort of acrobatics check. Also, that video clearly shows both hits being simultaneous, as well as a crouching recovery, one that would not be necessary with TWF with daggers as I mentioned.
@Vandis, I get caught up in the moment sometimes. Maybe I should put a disclaimer on all my house rules.
An enemy might also be immobile, and the guy said he used the platform because he had no partner. The game does not include the size of an opponent into the equation as to whether or not the double kick would work, but the video shows it is possible, and once again I am sure there are better martial artist out there.
Your idea of what breaks verisimilitude does not make something a rule. Kicking while using a weapon is a lot more realistic and possible than dodging a fireball while paralyzed.
Blocking an attack from huge and larger creatures with a shield will leave you with a broken arm and/or shield.
Even if those videos had not been found it would not matter because the characters in the game do a lot of things that far exceed "kicking really fast", such as running 4.5 40's while wearing over 100 pounds of gear.
Thanks James! That's the kind of summary of the situation I was hoping to get.
I'm running Kingmaker, and after reading this thread, I have a mental image of a Troll Rending with both feet while holding a Great Axe. Good times.
Buakaw Por Pramuk, a great example of a guy who can flurry, even with his kicks.
Sorry, no simultaneous attack groups... :)
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If he opts to not attack with his sword during the full attack, am I right in thinking that the three natural attacks are all treated as primaries?Using manufactured weapons only comes into play when you are making your full attack using them. When you do so you relegate your remaining natural attacks to secondary status even if they would otherwise be primary.
The claw and bite would normally be primary.
When you are not full attacking and using that manufactured weapon, then the natural attacks are as normal.. primary or secondary as the case may be. In this case primary.
You could be holding a great sword, a pair of short swords, or a barrel.. it makes no difference for your full attack if you're not using them (though they do use up your hands as you've taken into account already).
It's not that hard, but people have trouble with TWF without natural attacks being involved... and natural attacks can be more complicated.. so go figure.
Don't worry it sounds like what you presented is correct.
To further muddle things you could full attack with your natural weapons and then should someone provoke an AOO take that AOO with your greatsword. This is neither TWF nor mixing natural and manufactured weapons. For either of those you need to look at what's going on during the full attack action sequence.
-James
This post is all the thread needed to contain after the opening question.
This seems like again some trying to interject "realness" into a abstract combat simulation.
The attacks and movement (if any) occur within that 6 seconds, there is nothing in the rules that say you have to take your attacks in a particular order, this counts for characters, npcs, and monsters, they all occur within said 6 second round. Additionally to muddy the whole realism thing up, the being with the next lowest Initiative is also taking all their attacks in the same 6 seconds. If you want to start tracking hits via initiative and BAB, have fun with that.
Aw, no response to my videos, Malfus? I'm let down.
Aw, no response to my videos, Malfus? I'm let down.
As to video with the double kick performed leaping from the ground, I would work with my players for some sort of acrobatics check. Also, that video clearly shows both hits being simultaneous, as well as a crouching recovery, one that would not be necessary with TWF with daggers as I mentioned.
One more 2:58 and 4:27, among other points. With more control that the other videos.These dudes are probably just well trained, and not even world class athletes, certainly not on par with adventurers.
Indeed, those are expert 1 with unarmed strike feat. Not even a first level monk. They can't evade fireballs, fall like feathers, jump twice their own height, or teleport short distances.
This is a low level monk And they do kick twice in the middle of the air, no problem.
This are highish level monks..
And this is a 20th level monk , transformed in outsider
I'm pretty sure all of them can flurry of kicks. :)