Because I was agreeing with you?
Sometimes I'll quote someone, so I can follow on from what they said, not slam it.
Wow, yeah.. I was pretty tired there. Wasn't thinking from a point of view where someone could be agreeing with me, heh. Sorry!
It makes no sense from a gaming standpoint that it's better to summon a devil to defend against a demon then an angel.
This isn't true at all. Sure a devil might take less damage from a demon, but DR is not the only thing in a creatures statblock.
Does your devil grant you a protective aura that is a like a jacked up version of magic circle against evil (+4 on saves and AC against evil, and help vs mind control)? An angel does.
Does your devil come with a bunch of spells or spell like abilities that are great at damaging or countering the effects of demons (removing fear, curses, or making holy attacks)? An angel's list is almost tailored to do so.
So sure, in a vacuum, if your goal is to have a long drawn out fight in a one on one fight with a demon then summoning a devil is probably a good choice.
But if you want your summon to grant protection to your entire party, be able to help recover the party, and be able to do a decent amount of damage to the demon, then you summon an angel.
Wow, I really didn't expect my surprised rant to generate this much argument.
Actually what I 'expected' was to be called a dofus for not noticing what 'everybody' already knows.
|
Imho good vs. evil is generally a larger gap than law vs. chaos, that said context is a MAJOR factor. As far as CG squabbling with LG I would note that good people/creatures are inheirently more likely to work towards the greater "good", anyone who has played good and evil campaigns can tell you which group was most often more likely to work together towards a common goal
Though that is true in a party of Good people (like PCs in a Good campaign), it does not necessarily hold true when several parties meet.
After all, the Evil parties are usually rather open to finding a compromise and ally with even their enemies if it is worth it, all the while seeking a way to get the most out of the situation and getting ready to stab their former allies in the back at the end of the day.
It is the Good parties who are so very often refusing to compromise on their principles. Simply because, after all is said and done, THEY are the Good guys, you know, and thus they are always in the right.
Now put two Good parties at odd with each other, each one convinced that his way is the right one and that the other is corrupted/misled/stupid, and you will get all-out war no-holds-barred faster than you can say GENOCIDE.
It makes no sense from a gaming standpoint that it's better to summon a devil to defend against a demon then an angel.This isn't true at all. Sure a devil might take less damage from a demon, but DR is not the only thing in a creatures statblock.
Does your devil grant you a protective aura that is a like a jacked up version of magic circle against evil (+4 on saves and AC against evil, and help vs mind control)? An angel does.
Does your devil come with a bunch of spells or spell like abilities that are great at damaging or countering the effects of demons (removing fear, curses, or making holy attacks)? An angel's list is almost tailored to do so.
So sure, in a vacuum, if your goal is to have a long drawn out fight in a one on one fight with a demon then summoning a devil is probably a good choice.
But if you want your summon to grant protection to your entire party, be able to help recover the party, and be able to do a decent amount of damage to the demon, then you summon an angel.
The demon or devil might well come with Prot/Good, unholy weapons, Unholy Words, Blasphemy, Unholy Auras, and the like. Indeed, most of the higher levels ones DO.
Try pulling that crap against another demon or devil. None of it works.
Demons and devils are best at killing celestials, and at DEFENDING against their own kind. Angels are best at killing demons and devils and, um, getting hacked up by demons and devils. Because Angels don't beat on one another. Demons and devils find celestials remarkably FRAGILE compared to one another. They must enjoy picking on them!
In other words, if you are summoning up a friend to occupy that fiend over there, you're better off pitching a barbed devil at the hezrou then an Astral Deva. It will likely last longer, isn't going to be affected by evil magic, and if it dies you don't feel guilty. Literally it can take the punishment much better.
Sure, the Astral Deva might kill it faster...but then it's merely a DPR race to the bottom. The devil will OCCUPY it, and tie it up while you deal with everything else and then get to focus attention on it.
==Aelryinth
Imho good vs. evil is generally a larger gap than law vs. chaos, that said context is a MAJOR factor. As far as CG squabbling with LG I would note that good people/creatures are inheirently more likely to work towards the greater "good", anyone who has played good and evil campaigns can tell you which group was most often more likely to work together towards a common goalThough that is true in a party of Good people (like PCs in a Good campaign), it does not necessarily hold true when several parties meet.
After all, the Evil parties are usually rather open to finding a compromise and ally with even their enemies if it is worth it, all the while seeking a way to get the most out of the situation and getting ready to stab their former allies in the back at the end of the day.
It is the Good parties who are so very often refusing to compromise on their principles. Simply because, after all is said and done, THEY are the Good guys, you know, and thus they are always in the right.
Now put two Good parties at odd with each other, each one convinced that his way is the right one and that the other is corrupted/misled/stupid, and you will get all-out war no-holds-barred faster than you can say GENOCIDE.
At which point we're talking non-good parties, because you don't go to war with good people for no good reason. Your example is basically an example of overweening pride rapidly devolving into Tyranny.
Good people can disagree, can even do so violently, but devolving to war is something neither side is going to enjoy and will avoid if at all possible. Good sides use diplomacy and non-violent forms of conflict resolution to solve their problems, perhaps athletic contests, duels of champions, grand quests, monetary compensation, formal alliance and agreements, marriages between rulers, etc.
it is LAWFUL alignments that stick to their ethics in spite of everything, refusing to change or acknowledgement the other side or a change in circumstances. Heck, it's almost the definition of Lawful! Good comes with empathy.
You need to get your alignments straight! :)
I'd cite the whole Marvel Civil War and how it ended. Basically two LG sides going at it for the best of reasons, but not lethally...because they are LG. And Cap was unwilling to adhere to his Lawful mindset if it would do damage to innocents, while Stark, being more a lawful businessman then a Good person, was willing to stick to his guns until Cap's higher moral code took him out of the fight.
At the same time, you've got plenty of heroes who simply do not work well inside a Lawful framework (poster child, the Hulk). But they are good people, and while conflict happens, basically it's all in good sport.
==Aelryinth
|
|
The writing of the DR x/evil or good is unfortunate because it makes it feel so much more vulnerable. An alternative would be to replace DR x/alignment with DR x/- and say that aligned attacks overcome the DR of creatures of the opposite alignment. The mechanical end result is the same, but it feels more like the aligned attack is doing something awesome.
Sure, the Astral Deva might kill it faster...but then it's merely a DPR race to the bottom. The devil will OCCUPY it, and tie it up while you deal with everything else and then get to focus attention on it.
Unless of course your demon views something that can't bypass it's DR and can't effect it with most of it's abilities as less of a threat than the rest of the party, and just ignores the devil in favor of attacking you.
Seriously, if a wizard summons a devil to handle a demon, the demon might just shrug it's shoulders, eat a paltry attack from an AoO and go attack the wizard. If the wizard instead summons a legitimate threat, then the demon will be less likely to ignore it.
|
I still like more the old DR/+1, DR/+2...Luckily nobody have noted the silly DR/magic is.It's weak against PCs, sure. But it sure isn't silly when facing normals. It's very useful then.
Agreed. Presumably taken out during 3.0 -> 3.5 becaue it meant the GM had to remember all the weapons each party member wielded.
Personally, I houserule it back in based on the HD of the monster, getting +1 per 4 HD. Intentionally scaled to match most characters' magic item progression. Monks get the same based on level on their attacks.