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Can double-barreled pistols be reloaded as a free action with the Rapid Reload feat and alchemical cartridges? Can a musket master do the same with double-barreled muskets?
Do double-barreled firearms allow two shots with each attack - i.e. effectively doubling rate of fire?
Giving a 12th lvl character with Rapid Shot and boots of speed the following attack sequence: +7/+7/+7/+7/+7/+7/+2/+2/-3/-3? (only includes modifiers from shooting double-barreled, rapid shot and haste)
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With Dex 22, +4 gun, WF and GWF as well as Point Blank Shot thats an additional +13 at 30'.
Thats: +20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+15/+15/+10/+10 which is not at all bad for a touch attack.
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Can double-barreled pistols be reloaded as a free action with the Rapid Reload feat and alchemical cartridges?
Early firearms: "It is a standard action to load each barrel of a one-handed early firearm"
Rapid Reload: "The time required for you to reload your chosen type of weapon is reduced to a free action (for a hand or light crossbow), a move action (for heavy crossbow or one-handed firearm), or a standard action (two-handed firearm)."
Alchemical cartridges make loading a firearm easier, reducing the time to load a firearm by one step (a full-round action becomes a standard action, a standard action becomes a move action, and a move action becomes a free action)
Standard to Move to Free.
Can a musket master do the same with double-barreled muskets?
Fast Musket (Ex): "At 3rd level, as long as the musket master has 1 grit point, she can reload any two-handed firearm as if it were a one-handed firearm."
Do double-barreled firearms allow two shots with each attack - i.e. effectively doubling rate of fire?
Pistol, Double-Barreled: This pistol has two parallel barrels; each barrel can be fired independently as a separate action, or both can be shot at once with the same action. If both barrels are shot at once, they must both target the same creature or object, and the pistol becomes wildly inaccurate, imparting a –4 penalty on each shot.
Musket, Double-Barreled: This musket has two parallel barrels; each barrel can be shot independently as a separate action, or both can be fired at once as the same attack. If both barrels are fired at once, they must both target the same creature or object, and the gun becomes wildly inaccurate, taking a –4 penalty on each shot. Each barrel of a double-barreled musket uses either a bullet and a single dose of black powder or an alchemical cartridge as ammunition.
It's not clear to me if the wording difference between the pistol and musket (action vs attack) is intentional. I would assume the musket makes one attack roll and just deals damage for both if it hits, while the pistol must make separate attack rolls for each barrel, but still using whatever action it is to attack (standard/full/aoo/etc).
Giving a 12th lvl character with Rapid Shot and boots of speed the following attack sequence: +7/+7/+7/+7/+7/+7/+2/+2/-3/-3? (only includes modifiers from shooting double-barreled, rapid shot and haste)
12th level Musket Master Gunslinger with BAB +12/+7/+2, under Haste and using Rapid Shot:+11/+11/+11/+6/+1 (1 attack from rapid, 1 attack from haste, -2 penalty from rapid, +1 bonus from haste)
Using both barrels: +7/+7/+7/+2/-3 (as above with -4 penalty for both barrels)
For a pistol you might run into problems with things like Rapid Shot and haste granting an attack, and each barrel being an attack (even though it's the same action). It might have been cleared up on the forums somewhere, I haven't really followed the firearm stuff.
It appears double-barreled firearms are far more powerfull and cheap than the Manyshot feat.
A clarification of the action vs. Attack language would be good. I cannot se it as intended that the two items work so differently.
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In our group we treat attacks from double barelled weapons as single attack rolls ("both at once per action/attack"), rolling damage twice on a hit.
So a hasted, rapid shot musketeer would have a final base attack bonus of +7/+7/+7/+2/-3 (12+1-2-4) when shooting with both barrels at the same time. Same level 12 gunslinger using Deadly Aim would have +3/+3/+3/-2/-7.
That is more reasonable.
How would you handle a two-weapon style gunslinger with double-barreled pistols in each hand?
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That is more reasonable.
How would you handle a two-weapon style gunslinger with double-barreled pistols in each hand?
Same thing, except an additional -4 to BAB for TWFing with two one-handed weapons. So with Greater TWFing, at level 12 you would have a hasted, rapid shot, deadly aim BAB of +1/+1/+1/-4/-9 +1/-4/-9 (12+1-2-4-4) when shooting with both barrels at the same time, with each succesfull attack dealing (1d8+x+8) + (1d8+x+8).
For critical hits, we make only one bullet crit by attack at most, as if using Manyshot. For misfires, only one attack can lead to a misfire, but in this case both bullets fail to hit as they are a single attack. This avoids ridiculous damage AND having his weapon exploding instantly in case of misfire (if the fumble was counted once per bullet, the weapon would explode in a single attack roll).Reloading is simple, get some weapon cords or a glove of storing and alternate each round to reload your weapon with the free hand available at a single time.
I think you do have to take them in descending order.
What I think might be the key to understanding how double-barreled guns work is the meaning behind action/attack which appear to be used without discrimination.
If they mean attack action it makes snse to me, but I know some people would consider that too restrictive and since I judge PFS I want to base my rulings on a solid base.
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Somebody is going to have to explain to me the pattern for using weapon cords to reload.
It seems to me that you can't go completely crazy with TWF with just a weapon cord and a glove of storing since you need a swift action to retrieve a dropped weapon with the cord. Or can you take all of your attacks with one hand and then all of your attacks with the other? I thought you had to take them in order from highest to lowest.
The rules aren't clear whether you have to include the second weapon into your first row of attacks : "If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first."
=> The first highlighted part only mentions BAB as a prerequisite to attack from higher to lower.
Why would the second highlighted part be there, if attacking from higher to lower by alternating between your two weapons was an obligation ? And even the precision says that you have to attack with either weapon first.
The same way, you can TWF and THF with a one-handed weapon, a light weapon and a glove of storing or quickdraw shield, allowing you to get TH bonus damage on your primary weapon attacks by dropping and drawing your light weapon/shield as a free action.
For the pistols and weapon cords, you have one swift action per round, so drop your secondary weapon as a free action, do all your attacks, drop your primary weapon, catch the secondary as a swift and continue your attack. Secondary becomes primary in the following round, etc.
The same way, you can TWF and THF with a one-handed weapon, a light weapon and a glove of storing or quickdraw shield, allowing you to get TH bonus damage on your primary weapon attacks by dropping and drawing your light weapon/shield as a free action.
You cannot use the same limb twice... if you use a weapon two handed, you can't draw a new weapon and use one of those arms to attack. Similarly, you can't gain the benefit of a shield when used in this way.
You would need a weapon that did not occupy the hand slots.
It is my earnest hope that the wordings in the Ultimate Equipment book will shut the door on this attempted cheese tactic.
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The same way, you can TWF and THF with a one-handed weapon, a light weapon and a glove of storing or quickdraw shield, allowing you to get TH bonus damage on your primary weapon attacks by dropping and drawing your light weapon/shield as a free action.You cannot use the same limb twice... if you use a weapon two handed, you can't draw a new weapon and use one of those arms to attack. Similarly, you can't gain the benefit of a shield when used in this way.
You would need a weapon that did not occupy the hand slots.
It is my earnest hope that the wordings in the Ultimate Equipment book will shut the door on this attempted cheese tactic.
Find me the text where it says you can't use a weapon two-handed as part of TWFing. Ever heard of greatsword + armor spikes ? You don't even need a special item to do it.
You're still taking TWFing penalties during the entire full-round action and i don't see how you couldn't benefit from a shield as long as you wield at the time of the attack you suffer.
Find me the text where it says you can't use a weapon two-handed as part of TWFing. Ever heard of greatsword + armor spikes ? You don't even need a special item to do it.
You're still taking TWFing penalties during the entire full-round action and i don't see how you couldn't benefit from a shield as long as you wield at the time of the attack you suffer.
You can TWF with a Greatsword and Spikes. That is not the issue, it is a separate issue. The issue you're presenting is doubling up on the use of actual limbs or using a 2h weapon then gaining the benefit of a shield, which you cannot do.
How do we know PF does not allow this cheese? See the buckler:
Buckler:Spoiler:This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you lose the buckler's AC bonus until your next turn. You can cast a spell with somatic components using your shield arm, but you lose the buckler's AC bonus until your next turn. You can't make a shield bash with a buckler.
So, explain to me, in a logical sense why you could not do what you're attempting to explain with a buckler, that is retain an AC bonus on a limb with a buckler after using it to attack - and this is coming from a shield designed to be employed with weapons in hand, even two-handed weapons - but other shields would be ok for this when the rules clearly note that they are much more cumbersome?
Easy answer, you cannot.
As for TWF, you can't use the same hand in different attacks, there is no off-handed attack there.
You can't use your Right&Left hand to swing a sword then use your right hand again to stab with your off-hand. You'd have to choose a blade boot, headbutt, armor spike etc. Something without the use of your hands.
If this was not the case then, assuming you had claws, you could use your two hands to attack with weapons, drop them then attack with your natural attacks (claws). Which is certainly not the case.
Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack's original type.
Again, I hope a definitive stance is made by the developers to close this "loophole" of "well it doesn't explicitly say I cant.."
The same way, you can TWF and THF with a one-handed weapon, a light weapon and a glove of storing or quickdraw shield, allowing you to get TH bonus damage on your primary weapon attacks by dropping and drawing your light weapon/shield as a free action.You cannot use the same limb twice... if you use a weapon two handed, you can't draw a new weapon and use one of those arms to attack. Similarly, you can't gain the benefit of a shield when used in this way.
You would need a weapon that did not occupy the hand slots.
It is my earnest hope that the wordings in the Ultimate Equipment book will shut the door on this attempted cheese tactic.
Find me the text where it says you can't use a weapon two-handed as part of TWFing. Ever heard of greatsword + armor spikes ? You don't even need a special item to do it.
You're still taking TWFing penalties during the entire full-round action and i don't see how you couldn't benefit from a shield as long as you wield at the time of the attack you suffer.
That is pretty much off topic, but to start with TWF requires a weapon in both primary and off-hands and armor spikes are not wielded in either so they are by their very nature incompatible with TWF.
But lets take that discussion in another thread if you want to discuss it further.
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So, explain to me, in a logical sense why you could not do what you're attempting to explain with a buckler, that is retain an AC bonus on a limb with a buckler after using it to attack - and this is coming from a shield designed to be employed with weapons in hand, even two-handed weapons - but other shields would be ok for this when the rules clearly note that they are much more cumbersome?
Easy answer, you cannot.
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If this was not the case then, assuming you had claws, you could use your two hands to attack with weapons, drop them then attack with your natural attacks (claws). Which is certainly not the case.
Yes I can. You invest feats or ressources for it to work, you have to wait until you are high level for it to be really effective, then it works. Don't say you really believe everything is perfectly balanced for use in PF and reflects how it works in the real world ? The buckler sucks and this isn't something new : ever heard of the Thunderstriker archetype, used as a joke when it come to bad design because it fails so much at his job despite being supposed to fight wonderfully with said buckler and a TH weapon ?
For the claws exemple, read again the rules and you'll see you can't : "you cannot switch to a different weapon without first untying the cord (a full-round action) or cutting it (a move action or an attack, hardness 0, 0 hp)" ; a natural weapon is treated as a different weapon, so if you drop your greatsword you cannot switch to another weapon wielded in the same hand during the round.
You don't like the TH TWFing, it's not my problem and it's still RAW if you can draw or remove your weapon as a free action. In any case, you sacrifife something and take risks to get to use this trick, either additional bonus on AoOs or low AC against readied attacks.
That is pretty much off topic, but to start with TWF requires a weapon in both primary and off-hands and armor spikes are not wielded in either so they are by their very nature incompatible with TWF.
But lets take that discussion in another thread if you want to discuss it further.
You can use armor spikes "as an off-hand weapon", so your main weapon being a TH one is irreleveant in the equation. An alchemist could even sacrifice two discoveries to TWF with greatswords, the only difference would be that none would get TH bonuses to damage despite being wielded in two hands.
The issue you're presenting is doubling up on the use of actual limbs or using a 2h weapon then gaining the benefit of a shield, which you cannot do.
Why not?
Your hands are completely empty and free. You quick draw a greatsword as a free action. You are now armed. You use a full round action to full-attack, making whatever attacks you can with the greatsword. You drop the greatsword as a free action. Your hands are completely empty and free. You quick draw a quickdraw shield and don it as a free action. You are now wearing a shield, and gaining the shield AC bonus.
How do we know PF does not allow this cheese? See the buckler
That's if you're wearing the buckler the entire time. If you're not wearing a buckler, then you put on a buckler, you get the buckler AC bonus until you do something that denies it to you.
You can use armor spikes "as an off-hand weapon", so your main weapon being a TH one is irreleveant in the equation. An alchemist could even sacrifice two discoveries to TWF with greatswords, the only difference would be that none would get TH bonuses to damage despite being wielded in two hands.
Well. I had completely forgotten about that. You are of course right.
Now... the original topic was about how many shots a gunslinger can get off when using DBPs
I agree completely with MacGurcules (love the name!). ...but it IS very strong (when not taking misfires into the equation), and I therefore believe it is quite FAQ-worthy...
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Read again the BAB you have when TWFing the two pistols with full damage-oriented ranged combat feats at level 12 : +1/+1/+1/-4/-9 +1/-4/-9.
Even if you hit twice per attack and target touch AC, the ridiculously high failure rate and misfire range is gonna be an annoying b&@$+ during 13 levels, assuming you're playing a pistolero.
This is really powerful indeed, but you just choose to get a character with a wild damage curve and who has to stay dangerously close to be efficient. When it hits, it hurts, but it will also fail a lot, and shooting 260 GP worth of bullets each round will be a weakness someday if you find yourself short of ressources.
The issue you're presenting is doubling up on the use of actual limbs or using a 2h weapon then gaining the benefit of a shield, which you cannot do.Why not?
Your hands are completely empty and free. You quick draw a greatsword as a free action. You are now armed. You use a full round action to full-attack, making whatever attacks you can with the greatsword. You drop the greatsword as a free action. Your hands are completely empty and free. You quick draw a quickdraw shield and don it as a free action. You are now wearing a shield, and gaining the shield AC bonus.
How do we know PF does not allow this cheese? See the bucklerThat's if you're wearing the buckler the entire time. If you're not wearing a buckler, then you put on a buckler, you get the buckler AC bonus until you do something that denies it to you.
Normally, I agree with you Grick, but I do not agree with you in this case.
I do not think you would allow TWF with the hands in that same scenario (the greatsword to new weapon shuffle) so you should not allow the greatsword to shield shuffle either.
I understand how it *would* work mechanically with the buckler, however, I do not think you'd gain the benefit the rules are pretty explicit that you've use a weapon in your buckler'd hand. Why would you deny the offensive doubling of limbs, but allow the defensive doubling of limbs? That just screams inconsistency.
Luckily, I have brought up this shield shuffling in the Ultimate Equipment thread so hopefully SKR and JB will review this very scenario.
@Maxximilius
Why are you talking about the Weapon Cord? I just don't understand the point you're trying to make.
TH TWF is fine as long as you use a non-handed weapon for your "off-hand" attack.