Actually with the Monk, wouldn't it be 8 (bracers) + 5 (ring) + Dex + Wis + 5 (Amulet)?
Unarmed attacks are the weakest weapon in the game as its not a weapon or natural weapon but suffers the penalties of both on top AoOs.
Monks don't provoke when attacking because they have Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat at level 1.
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20th level Fighter: 10 (base) + 9 (Full plate) + 5 (enhancement, armor) + 2 (heavy shield) + 5 (enhancement, shield) + 7 (Dex 24, armor training, mithril armor) + 5 (deflection) + 5 (natural armor) + 1 (dodge, feat) = 49 AC (41 flat-foot, 23 touch).
20th level Monk: 10 (base) + 8 (bracers of ac) + 5 (deflection) + 5 (class AC) + 7 (Dex 24) + 7 (Wis 24) + 1 dodge = 43 AC (35 flat-footed, 35 touch).
Two weapon fighters take away the shield (-7) but usually have Two-Weapon Defense for an AC of 43. Two handed fighters can purchase a +5 animated heavy shield giving them the same AC as the sword and board fighter.
ALL of this is before ion stones and esoteric feats, which can raise things even higher. Combat expertise will let the fighter raise his AC by an additional 6, and his adjusted attack bonus will STILL be higher than that of the monk. The monk gets a +4 from combat expertise (BAB 20 vs. BAB 15, although he might get the additional +2 on a flurry). At the cost of lowering his to-hits still farther.
So, no. Monks can easily be out-ACed by fighters at high enough level. In fact, if the monk can get an amulet of natural armor he is STILL 1 point behind the fighter in AC.
Master Arminas
20th level Fighter: 10 (base) + 9 (Full plate) + 5 (enhancement, armor) + 2 (heavy shield) + 5 (enhancement, shield) + 7 (Dex 24, armor training, mithril armor) + 5 (deflection) + 5 (natural armor) + 1 (dodge, feat) = 49 AC (41 flat-foot, 23 touch).
20th level Monk: 10 (base) + 8 (bracers of ac) + 5 (deflection) + 5 (class AC) + 7 (Dex 24) + 7 (Wis 24) + 1 dodge = 43 AC (35 flat-footed, 35 touch).
Two weapon fighters take away the shield (-7) but usually have Two-Weapon Defense for an AC of 43.
ALL of this is before ion stones and esoteric feats, which can raise things even higher. Combat expertise will let the fighter raise his AC by an additional 6, and his adjusted attack bonus will STILL be higher than that of the monk.
Master Arminas
That's pretty comprehensive, I like it. Don't forget that the monk can, at the cost of a Ki point, raise his AC by +4 as a dodge bonus. Situational admittedly, but it can really be useful. So they can lose on an extra attack with their ki for an improved AC. In a perfect world, you won't have to, but hey, having played a monk, stuff happens :)
20th level Fighter: 10 (base) + 9 (Full plate) + 5 (enhancement, armor) + 2 (heavy shield) + 5 (enhancement, shield) + 7 (Dex 24, armor training, mithril armor) + 5 (deflection) + 5 (natural armor) + 1 (dodge, feat) = 49 AC (41 flat-foot, 23 touch).
20th level Monk: 10 (base) + 8 (bracers of ac) + 5 (deflection) + 5 (class AC) + 7 (Dex 24) + 7 (Wis 24) + 1 dodge = 43 AC (35 flat-footed, 35 touch).
In my experience the monk's Dex or Wis will be higher, and the fighter (you can read in any other full BAB combat class for fighter below) is less likely to max out Dex, but basically we have established:
The fighter can out-damage the monk (easily)
The fighter can out-maneuver the monk (likewise easily)
The fighter can out-armour the monk (easily)
The fighter can out-hit the monk (easily)
What can the monk do better than the fighter?
A few assorted tricks (wholeness of body, abundant step)
Better saves
Some minor combat tricks they need special weapons to work through or attack unarmed (stunning fist etc.)
Faster movement
So of course it wasn't 'fair' that the monk could flurry with a single weapon...to be 'fair' the monk would need to be able to do a lot more than that. I'm not saying monks should be able to equal the fighter in all the four areas above, but they should be able to come close match him in at least one of them.
My 'fix' (other than leave FoB alone) is to add an item set to improve unarmed strike, and a weapon property 'Greater Ki Focus' to allow a weapon to use the monk's unarmed damage dice instead of the weapon's dice.
That build for a 24 Dex fighter, Dabbler, assumes a starting Dex of 13, a +5 inherent bonus, and a +6 belt of physical perfection.
The Monk needs high Strength, Dexterity, and Wisdom (to be moderately effective, he needs around a 24-26 in each by 20th level). And he can't jump dump Constitution or Intelligence either.
I stated up the monk starting with Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 16, and Cha 8. (Human, 20-point buy, +2 to Wis). Attribute increases gained every four levels are divided up like this: +1 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Wis, for Str 15, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 18, and Cha 8. He has a headband of inspired wisdom +6 and a belt of physical perfection. Total so far is Str 21, Dex 22, Con 20, Int 12, Wis 24, and Cha 8. Inherent bonuses are expensive, but a 20th level monk should have enough funds to gain a +5 Str, +2 Dex, +4 Con, and +2 Int (for additional skils, since you gain those retroactively). Final total is Str 26, Dex 24, Con 24, Int 14, Wis 24, and Cha 8. On a 25-point buy, it gets easier allowing for a 10 or 12 final Charisma score, and no net negatives to skills (with the goal of keeping all other attributes the same).
Master Arminas
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Another question (don't I just have too many questions? LOL):
Let's say someone in your group plays a zen archer. He gets to 6th level, and flurry of blows = TWF, as per SKR. Okay, if they put in an exception that still lets the zen archer flurry with bows (since he can't flurry with unarmed strikes or standard monk weapons anymore) and bows are an exception to the two weapon part of flurry = two-weapon fighting: what happens if he multi-classes into ranger and picks the two-weapon style?
The monk already has the virtual two-weapon fighting feats. By taking zen archer, he sacrifices his ability to flurry (two-weapon fight) with unarmed strike and weapons for the ability to use this with his bow. But what happens now? Does he gain the two-weapon fighting feats from Ranger? Is he already considered to have to the two-weapon fighting feats, and thus ineligable to select that combat style from Ranger? Do those two-weapon fighting feats virtually stack, adding Ranger and Monk levels together to determine whether the character has Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, or Greater Two-Weapon Fighting? How does this work?
We need answers, gentlemen. (And yes, that was directed at the developers.)
Master Arminas
Something to the effect that even though they have suffer no offhand penaltiesWhat do you mean by this nothing i can see leads me to believe that monks get no offhand penalty other than the keep full str.
In fact if this were the case a monk would be better off dipping then going unarmed ranger with a monks robe than going full monk.
Nope Just bracers of armor headbands of wisdom monks robes rings of protection and if their GM lets them move its slot a new form of the AoNA.
Bracers of Armor +8: 64,000 gp
Ring of Protection +5: 50,000 gp
Ring of Freedom of Movement: 40,000 gp
Cloak of Resistance +5: 25,000 gp
Headband of Inspired Wisdom +6: 36,000 gp
Belt of Physical Perfection +6: 144,000 gp
Amulet of Mighty Fists +5: 125,000 gp
Monk's Robes: 13,000 gp
Winged Boots: 16,000 gp
Goggles of Night: 12,000 gp
Handy Haversack: 2,000 gp
Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone: 5,000 gp
Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone: 30,000 gp
Kama +5 (Ki Focus, Icey Burst): 128,000 gp
Total: 685,000 gp
That list leaves our 20th level monk with 195,000 gp, or +7 worth of inherent bonuses. With 2,500 gp left over. And he NEEDS every single item on the list to shore up a weak point. Well, he could get by without the cloak of resistance, but some critters can really pump up the DCs so I wouldn't want to try.
I think the increased cost of the AoMF is because monks have to buy less gear. I mean they don't have to worry about buying armor, weapons(sometimes), and shields.
So you're saying a two handed weapon should also be more expensive? The guy is buying less gear than a shield user or a two weapons user...
I have played many monks. And none of them were wealthier than any of the rest of the party. Have you ever seen a rich monk? Monks forgo earthly possessions. They are forced to buy magic items to survive (something I dont like, wanting to RP a monk correctly).
Oh yeah, that reminds me. Monks start with the lowest amount of gold (35, half of the runners up 70). The Zen archer can barely afford a short bow when starting the character. 35gp is not a lot. Then he still needs to buy rope etc.
hehehe
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I think the increased cost of the AoMF is because monks have to buy less gear. I mean they don't have to worry about buying armor, weapons(sometimes), and shields.
No, they do not buy armour, they instead have to buy other protective items and stat boosters if they wish to stay alive. Then they have to afford an AoMF at 2.5 times the cost of a magic weapon and still more limited. I would say the monk is as gimped for resources as they are for anything else.
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I have seen people quote double cost if you make an item for a slot other than the one intended, but I can't find that in the book right now. All I see is if it is a slotless item, the cost is doubled.I think some folks believe that 3.5's 'slot affinity' is applicable in Pathfinder. That is one of the (stated) reasons behind the even higher cost of the Amulet of Mighty Fists in 3.5: it had an extra 50% tagged on for being in an inappropriate slot.
Pathfinder removed the slot affinity, which should have cut the cost for a +1 AoMF from 6,000 gp (3.5) to 4,000 gp, but instead they priced it at 5,000 gp. Same applies to the +2, +3, +4, and +5 versions. Reasoning being that the AoMF doesn't need an actual +1 bonus to get a special weapon property (such as flaming).
I don't know about you guys, but I'd be fine with dumping that aspect to get even a small price break on the AoMF. After all, the problem with the monk isn't damage; it's hitting CR appropriate targets in the first place and getting through their DR.
If the AoMF was cheaper, and if its enhancement bonuses work like weapon enhancement bonuses (i.e., bypass damage reduction at +3 or higher), then a lot of the grumbling would go away.
Speaking of which, that is another question that has never (to the best of my knowledge) been answered by a developer: I have a monk with a +5 Amulet of Mighty Fists. No special weapon properties, just a straight up +5 enhancement bonus. Does this mean my unarmed strikes ignore DR based on cold iron and silver (+3 equivilant), adamantine (+4 equivilant), and alignment (+5 equivilant)?
Master Arminas
The AoMF in Pathfinder is less expensive than the 3.5 version, but for many it's not cheap enough. There is a reason that the item is priced as it is but that reason has been overlooked by most here.
Here is the AoMF as presented from the editions in which they've appeared (there is no 3.0 version of the AoMF as it was created for 3.5).
This amulet grants an enhancement bonus of +1 to +5 on attack and damage rolls with unarmed attacks and natural weapons.
Faint evocation; CL 5th; Craft Wondrous Item, greater magic fang, creator’s caster level must be at least three times the amulet’s bonus; Price 6,000 gp (+1), 24,000 gp (+2), 54,000 gp (+3), 96,000 gp (+4), 150,000 gp (+5).
This amulet grants an enhancement bonus of +1 to +5 on attack and damage rolls with unarmed attacks and natural weapons.
Alternatively, this amulet can grant melee weapon special abilities, so long as they can be applied to unarmed attacks. See Table: Melee Weapon Special Abilities for a list of abilities. Special abilities count as additional bonuses for determining the market value of the item, but do not modify attack or damage bonuses. An amulet of mighty fists cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +5. An amulet of mighty fists does not need to have a +1 enhancement bonus to grant a melee weapon special ability.
Price 5,000 gp (+1), 20,000 gp (+2), 45,000 gp (+3), 80,000 gp (+4), 125,000 gp (+5)
Now let's look at another item from the previous editions: bracers of armor.
These items surround the wearer with an invisible but tangible field of force, granting an armor bonus of +1 to +8, just as though he or she were wearing armor. Both bracers must be worn for the magic to be effective.
Caster Level: 7th; Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, mage armor, creator’s class level must be twice that of the bonus placed in the bracers; Market Price: 1,000 gp (+1), 4,000 gp (+2), 9,000 gp (+3), 16,000 gp (+4), 25,000 gp (+5), 36,000 gp (+6), 49,000 gp (+7), or 64,000 gp (+8); Weight: 1 lb.
These items appear to be wrist or arm guards. They surround the wearer with an invisible but tangible field of force, granting him an armor bonus of +1 to +8, just as though he were wearing armor. Both bracers must be worn for the magic to be effective.
Moderate conjuration; CL 7th; Craft Wondrous Item, mage armor, creator’s caster level must be at least two times that of the bonus placed in the bracers; Price 1,000 gp (+1), 4,000 gp (+2), 9,000 gp (+3), 16,000 gp (+4), 25,000 gp (+5), 36,000 gp (+6), 49,000 gp (+7), 64,000 gp (+8); Weight 1 lb.
These items appear to be wrist or arm guards. They surround the wearer with An invisible but tangible field of force, granting him an armor bonus of +1 to +8, just as though he were wearing armor. Both bracers must be worn for the magic to be effective.
Alternatively, bracers of armor can be enchanted with armor special abilities. See Table: Armor Special Qualities for a list of abilities. Special abilities usually count as Additional bonuses for determining the market value of an item, but do not improve AC. Bracers of armor cannot have a modified bonus (armor bonus plus armor special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +8. Bracers of armor must have at least a +1 armor bonus to grant an armor special ability. Bracers of armor cannot have any armor special abilities that add a flat gp amount to their cost. Bracers of armor and ordinary armor do not stack. If a creature receives a larger armor bonus from another source, the bracers of armor cease functioning and do not grant their armor bonus or their armor special abilities. If the bracers of armor grant a larger armor bonus, the other source of armor ceases functioning.
Price 1,000 gp (+1), 4,000 gp (+2), 9,000 gp (+3), 16,000 gp (+4), 25,000 gp (+5), 36,000 gp (+6), 49,000 gp (+7), 64,000 gp (+8); Weight 1 lb.
The price for the Pathfinder version is the same as the 3.0 and 3.5 versions, but defense is not viewed in the same way as offense.
There are plenty of ways to build up both a character's defense and offense, but offense will always be the premium. That's why enchanting armor is cheaper than enchanting a weapon. And that philosophy applies to the AoMF. It is a wondrous item meant to directly enhance the wearer's natural and unarmed weapon attacks, just as the bracers of armor are designed to protect. That is a powerful thing, no matter how much many wish to downplay it. And that power will always cost more.
Edit.
I would think the fix to the archer would be to marry it to the Rapid shot feats like the melee monk is married to the twf feats.
If a monk wants to have one weapon that applies to all his attacks during a flurry, he should get a quarterstaff.
End of discussion.
Can he flurry with only one end of the quarterstaff?
Is there such a thing as a rhetorical answer for a rhetorical question?
No, I am curious
Hmmm, this warrants further investigation then.
Back on subject, has anyone heard any further information from paizo after Jason Buhlman's post?
There are plenty of ways to build up both a character's defense and offense, but offense will always be the premium. That's why enchanting armor is cheaper than enchanting a weapon. And that philosophy applies to the AoMF. It is a wondrous item meant to directly enhance the wearer's natural and unarmed weapon attacks, just as the bracers of armor are designed to protect. That is a powerful thing, no matter how much many wish to downplay it. And that power will always cost more.
This is certainly true. Unfortunately, most of that advantage is not reaped by the monk as they have only the unarmed strike to enhance (unlike a dragon, for example, with four kinds of natural attacks), so why should they have to pay as massively for it?
Many people have stated here that the AoMF itself is not overpriced for what it is, it is overpriced for what the monk can get out of it. What has been desired is a way of enhancing the monks unarmed strike without paying as much as you do for the AoMF.
My own suggestion is an item that costs less but takes up two slots rather than one (hands and feet) and only works as a set. This can still leave the AoMF desirable, but the other item cheaper.
Also, we're getting off-topic, because this is about Flurry of Blows rather than unarmed strikes (although they are related). I still have not seen how or why treating the statement 'any combination' in the monks flurry description at face value (ie you can make all the attacks with one weapon if so desired) is in any way unfair or unbalancing. I get what people are saying about TWF, I just don't agree that it should be anything other than an explanation of the end result of the game mechanics of the ability.
Are you trying to give me false hope? Or has someone indicated this?
Or it was some vague April Fool's Day based joke.
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There are plenty of ways to build up both a character's defense and offense, but offense will always be the premium. That's why enchanting armor is cheaper than enchanting a weapon. And that philosophy applies to the AoMF. It is a wondrous item meant to directly enhance the wearer's natural and unarmed weapon attacks, just as the bracers of armor are designed to protect. That is a powerful thing, no matter how much many wish to downplay it. And that power will always cost more.This is certainly true. Unfortunately, most of that advantage is not reaped by the monk as they have only the unarmed strike to enhance (unlike a dragon, for example, with four kinds of natural attacks), so why should they have to pay as massively for it?
Many people have stated here that the AoMF itself is not overpriced for what it is, it is overpriced for what the monk can get out of it. What has been desired is a way of enhancing the monks unarmed strike without paying as much as you do for the AoMF.
My own suggestion is an item that costs less but takes up two slots rather than one (hands and feet) and only works as a set. This can still leave the AoMF desirable, but the other item cheaper.
Also, we're getting off-topic, because this is about Flurry of Blows rather than unarmed strikes (although they are related). I still have not seen how or why treating the statement 'any combination' in the monks flurry description at face value (ie you can make all the attacks with one weapon if so desired) is in any way unfair or unbalancing. I get what people are saying about TWF, I just don't agree that it should be anything other than an explanation of the end result of the game mechanics of the ability.
It's not as off-topic as you would think.
While true the original AoMF was able to be used by monks, as a class they weren't the only ones it was designed for. Druids majorly benefited from its existence. In fact, one could argue that the item was designed primarily with them in mind more so than the monk. What enabled a 3.5 monk to use it was one sentence in the 3.5 monk unarmed strike description: 'A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.' Were it not for that line, the monk wouldn't have been able to make use of the amulet in the first place. The 3.0 monk had no such language in its description of the monk's unarmed strike.
Unarmed Strike: A monk fighting unarmed gains the benefits of the Improved Unarmed Strike feat and thus does not provoke attacks of opportunity from armed opponents that she attacks.
Making an off-hand attack makes no sense for a monk striking unarmed.
A monk fighting with a one-handed weapon can make an unarmed strike as an off-hand attack, but she suffers the standard penalties for two-weapon fighting. Likewise, a monk with a weapon (other than a special monk weapon) in her off hand gets an extra attack with that weapon but suffers the usual penalties for two-weapon fighting and can't strike with a flurry of blows.
At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes.
Usually a monk’s unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but she can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on her attack roll. She has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling.
A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
A monk also deals more damage with her unarmed strikes than a normal person would, as shown on Table: The Monk. The unarmed damage on Table: The Monk is for Medium monks. A Small monk deals less damage than the amount given there with her unarmed attacks, while a Large monk deals more damage; see Table: Small or Large Monk Unarmed Damage.
At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk's attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may make unarmed strikes with his hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes.
Usually a monk's unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but he can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on his attack roll. He has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling.
A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
A monk also deals more damage with his unarmed strikes than a normal person would, as shown above on Table: monk. The unarmed damage values listed on Table: monk is for Medium monks. A Small monk deals less damage than the amount given there with his unarmed attacks, while a Large monk deals more damage; see Table: Small or Large monk Unarmed Damage.
The 3.5 inclusion of the AoMF warranted a change to the monk's unarmed strike from the 3.0 edition, something that was carried over to the current edition.
As for flurry of blows, well the changes it has seen through the editions is just as telling.
Flurry of Blows: The monk may make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack, but this attack and each other attack made that round suffer a –2 penalty apiece. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it affects attacks of opportunity the monk might make before her next action. The monk must use the full attack action to strike with a flurry of blows. A monk may also use the flurry of blows if armed with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, or siangham). If armed with one such weapon, the monk makes the extra attack either with that weapon or unarmed. If armed with two such weapons, she uses one for the regular attack (or attacks) and the other for the extra attack. In any case, her damage bonus on the attack with her off hand is not reduced.
Usually, a monk's unarmed strikes deal normal damage rather than subdual damage. However, she can choose to deal her damage as subdual damage when grappling.
When unarmored, a monk may strike with a flurry of blows at the expense of accuracy. When doing so, she may make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. The resulting modified base attack bonuses are shown in the Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus column on Table: The Monk. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the monk might make before her next action. When a monk reaches 5th level, the penalty lessens to -1, and at 9th level it disappears. A monk must use a full attack action to strike with a flurry of blows.
When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham). She may attack with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons interchangeably as desired. When using weapons as part of a flurry of blows, a monk applies her Strength bonus (not Str bonus × 1½ or ×½) to her damage rolls for all successful attacks, whether she wields a weapon in one or both hands. The monk can’t use any weapon other than a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows.
In the case of the quarterstaff, each end counts as a separate weapon for the purpose of using the flurry of blows ability. Even though the quarterstaff requires two hands to use, a monk may still intersperse unarmed strikes with quarterstaff strikes, assuming that she has enough attacks in her flurry of blows routine to do so.
Greater Flurry
When a monk reaches 11th level, her flurry of blows ability improves. In addition to the standard single extra attack she gets from flurry of blows, she gets a second extra attack at her full base attack bonus.
Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat). For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus from his monk class levels is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus.
At 8th level, the monk can make two additional attacks when he uses flurry of blows, as if using Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).
At 15th level, the monk can make three additional attacks using flurry of blows, as if using Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).
A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands. A monk may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of a flurry of blows. A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.
The full context should be looked at where this topic is concerned and that should include the 3.0 version as well. By limiting the discussion to only the PFRPG and 3.5 versions, we do the developers a major disservice as their vision had to be broader when they were designing the PFRPG. As their vision has to be now while going about the clarification to the mechanic as many things must be taken into account, more so than when it was first unveiled.
{a lot of stuff}
I do get what you are saying, FoB has improved over editions I agree. That doesn't detract from the limitations it still faces if it is treated as TWF rather than as it's own thing that happens to give a number of hits of the same magnitude as TWF, however, and the same is true of the AoMF and unarmed strike.
Hmmm, this warrants further investigation then.
Back on subject, has anyone heard any further information from paizo after Jason Buhlman's post?
I'm sure its in the same to do list as the stealth overhaul and Mikaze's favorite The Bloodcrow strike things.
This saddens me.
Tell me about it at least i know how it works in my house.
I have come to realize something.
I'm not going to advocate one way or the other. If the intent was to have monks using two weapons, that's great. I'll roll with that.
I just have two requests:
1. When you clarify, make sure you clarify. Clear up how flurry works, clear up how the sohei and the zen archer work with new language that doesn't contribute to the confusion in the first place, and make sure you clear up magic fang and magic weapon and anything else that this brings up.
Don't half fix the problem, and make sure the language is very clear.
2. Let's please get past the whole idea that because someone read something differently, they must be either deficient in their understanding of the rules or that they are somehow trying to cheat or pull of fast one of some kind.
It's a complicated game, and it has some rough language in it in a lot of places to this day.
One of the reasons I'm a big fan of revisions instead of new editions is that you can rewrite whole sections of the book to make them clearer without actually changing what the rule is suppose to do.
I'd love to see a version of 3.x that years of revisions and clarified language than to have Pathfinder RPG 2nd Edition that has bold new rules that introduce a whole new set of misunderstandings and errata for years to come.
I'd love to see a version of 3.x that years of revisions and clarified language than to have Pathfinder RPG 2nd Edition that has bold new rules that introduce a whole new set of misunderstandings and errata for years to come.
1,000 times this.
It shall be changed to what is more publicly, commonly seen as "how it should work" on March 30th.
Which means flurry with a single weapon? Flurry as two-weapon fighting? We don't know which one the developers see as more publicly, commonly seen as "how it should work".
Master Arminas
I have come to realize something.
I'm not going to advocate one way or the other. If the intent was to have monks using two weapons, that's great. I'll roll with that.
I just have two requests:
1. When you clarify, make sure you clarify. Clear up how flurry works, clear up how the sohei and the zen archer work with new language that doesn't contribute to the confusion in the first place, and make sure you clear up magic fang and magic weapon and anything else that this brings up.
Don't half fix the problem, and make sure the language is very clear.
2. Let's please get past the whole idea that because someone read something differently, they must be either deficient in their understanding of the rules or that they are somehow trying to cheat or pull of fast one of some kind.
It's a complicated game, and it has some rough language in it in a lot of places to this day.
One of the reasons I'm a big fan of revisions instead of new editions is that you can rewrite whole sections of the book to make them clearer without actually changing what the rule is suppose to do.
I'd love to see a version of 3.x that years of revisions and clarified language than to have Pathfinder RPG 2nd Edition that has bold new rules that introduce a whole new set of misunderstandings and errata for years to come.
And a hearty AMEN, brother.
Master Arminas
It shall be changed to what is more publicly, commonly seen as "how it should work" on March 30th.
Just to ask where did you gain this insight.
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I'm sure its in the same to do list as the stealth overhaul and Mikaze's favorite The Bloodcrow strike things.Hmmm, this warrants further investigation then.
Back on subject, has anyone heard any further information from paizo after Jason Buhlman's post?
Don't get me started.
Though honestly the VoP bothers me even more.
Gotta love those RP trap options.
It shall be changed to what is more publicly, commonly seen as "how it should work" on March 30th.Which means flurry with a single weapon? Flurry as two-weapon fighting? We don't know which one the developers see as more publicly, commonly seen as "how it should work".
The crazy thing is, you can flurry with a single weapon either way - just hold it in both hands!
Gotta love those RP trap options.
No. We hate them. I wish they would burn every last one of them, or un-trap them. They are the dumbest idea ever invented.
Might be a little off topic.
But I see that the other slot items (like a vest with a NA bonus) is not legal for PFS. The gods only know why...
So guess I need to put my PFS monk on ice until the verdict is out on Flurry of Blows, or Two Weapon Flurry
My 'fix' (other than leave FoB alone) is to add an item set to improve unarmed strike, and a weapon property 'Greater Ki Focus' to allow a weapon to use the monk's unarmed damage dice instead of the weapon's dice.
Either allow the monk to use any monk weapon with unarmed damage dice (makes sense, after all).
Or give him the same ability as the paladin Bond. For 1ki as a swift action, the monk can add +1 to +5 to his fists.