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No, I'll buy 14-16 strength can be wiry, but 20 strength without magic is a mountain of muscle, no two ways....so many people see the need to bump Strength to 20 or 22 or 25 (!) to try and stay competitive, while having Dex and Wis scores down around 12-14 or so. That's not wiry, that is pushing up against Olympic-class power-lifters!I think the guy is still wiry - he just seems able to perform impossible feats of strength given his slight build. (This seems to easily fit within the fantasy martial artist trope from movies, at least from my admittedly limited experience).
Mystic monk training can account for anything. Lots of the monk powers are "magical" don't you think? (even if not arcane/divine)
This is purely flavor.
Mystic monk training can account for anything. Lots of the monk powers are "magical" don't you think? (even if not arcane/divine)
This is purely flavor.
All verisimilitude is 'flavour' but this makes a mess of mine, which makes the game less fun. Look at the archetypal Shaolin priest, the inspiration for the monk class: little guy, not strong but very quick and skilled, insightful and hard to hit (high dex and wisdom, reasonable strength at most).
Now look at the way the monk has to be in order to be combat effective: big, lumbering, easy to hit (high strength, comparatively low dexterity and wisdom).
As for monk powers, they are supernatural rather than magical, and they flow from insight and inner strength - or are supposed to - which in the game is represented by wisdom.
Well, one can't argue with fun. Luckily for me a strong monk doesn't conjure the image of a Hercules.
I have no problem with the hulking halforc and the weedy, mystic guy both being able to lift a heavy boulder. To me it's no different from a bard and wizard generating the same spell effect with very different methods. Attributes are just a way of modeling abilities, in my way of thinking - I don't see much advantage in tying them to flavor elements.
It comes down to flavour, monks are traditionally meant to be blindingly fast and very wise, and your little mystic weedy guy that can lift a heavy boulder is neither if he was made with point buy.
It comes down to flavour, monks are traditionally meant to be blindingly fast and very wise, and your little mystic weedy guy that can lift a heavy boulder is neither if he was made with point buy.
There are also the Monks that are strong/tough that are wise as well.
You know the guys who can take all kinds of punishment while standing still or who can hit something with the force of a car.
Shaolin monks aren't generally small because of the kung-fu. They're generally small because they're asian.
If you stop assuming the monk to be an asian knock-off, then they don't have to be generally small anymore.
This is very true. But that doesn't mean that we have to make every monk a mountain of muscle just to be effective as a monk, either. I'm not saying monk's shouldn't be big and strong, I am just saying I would prefer other options without sacrificing viability.
This is one reason I like the Wisdom-to-hit idea, because it removes the need for a maxed-out physical attribute. You can then balance strength and speed as you see fit without worrying about which one needs to be tuned up as your hitting stat.
Feels like we are on a slow boat to China. Any word on when an answer is coming down the pike?
MA
I have re-worked my Mystic Monk, and posted it up here. It contains a lot of ideas bounced around in this thread and others.
Yes, I get that problem with my monk too. Have had to ask my DM to retro-fit an item to get her to a standard where she can have an effect on the game.
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Yes, I get that problem with my monk too. Have had to ask my DM to retro-fit an item to get her to a standard where she can have an effect on the game.
Still, there's a point where any port in a storm will do. If only it didn't run counter to all the flavor I want to get out of the monk... Dipping into special allowance territory doesn't make it any easier.
It really felt like the guy was a parody of the character I actually wanted to play.
GM played everything straight and fair. My pc just could never get a leg up.
Pretty much. Some bad luck is par for the course.
It's like current situation - if one character has maxed something out and is doing all they can, with a 50/50 chance of success, well sometimes the dice hate you. When you have a character trying to do something they were not designed to do, and they have a 5% chance of success, it's par for the course if you fail. When you have maxed out a character and you only have a 5% chance of success, and there is nothing more you can do, it hurts.
Ahem.
"Hickory, dickory, dock,
The monk ran up a clock.
The clock struck one,
We are having some fun,
Hickory, dickory, dock."
MA
We are having some fun
Well, that's the main thing. I wonder if your post is contributing to the developers' fun..
Who knows? If they aren't maybe they can answer. Or, more likely, remain silent.
MA
Silent would be my guess. That's what I'd do.
(By the way, I presume you didn't intend that to mean "I'm going to keep making posts which will reduce the developers' fun until they answer my questions about the monk"?)
I did not. I will keep making posts, but my intention is not to reduce their fun in anyway whatsoever. They do have a tough job, and lot of vocal critics, but I intend to keep prodding them anyway.
MA
I did not.
I didnt think so, but it is how I read it the first time through, fwiw.
I will keep making posts, but my intention is not to reduce their fun in anyway whatsoever. They do have a tough job, and lot of vocal critics, but I intend to keep prodding them anyway.
I really dont see the point of this strategy. I mean - if you think they havent noticed then fair enough. But since you know they're aware of it, you know they're going to work on it and that they're going to do that once they get some spare time in their respective schedules. What's gained by continually "prodding"?
I think there's the risk you'll be annoying and very little upside. They're just launching the mythic playtest - I'd be astonished if that doesnt take up a huge proportion of developer "spare time" for the next several months. Making "tick tock tick tock..." posts seems like a real risk to me.
I see no point in 'prodding' the devs any more than they have been 'prodded'. But I do see a point in discussing what the monk needs, could do with, and might be better with in his tool kit without being overpowered. This is providing the devs with a grab-bag of ideas and testing them out to see if they are broken or good, which is not a bad thing.
What's gained by continually "prodding"?
The same thing that's gained by waiting quietly: Nothing. They'll answer when they answer, regardless of what gets posted here or not.
I think there's the risk you'll be annoying and very little upside. They're just launching the mythic playtest - I'd be astonished if that doesnt take up a huge proportion of developer "spare time" for the next several months. Making "tick tock tick tock..." posts seems like a real risk to me.
"We've got other stuff to do" is something we'll hear until the end of time. It's no more or less valid than it was the last time they had "something else big on their plate."
Some people, however, prefer that "core" options are good before spending any money/attention/etc. on "extra" options. ;)
I understand that point (I'm all for a monk adjustment) - I'm just speaking pragmatically. I don't think it will help and think there's a real risk it will hurt. I'm not so sure that the tone of what's posted will have no impact on when it happens.
I think the approach Dabbler refers to achieves essentially the same thing but in a much more constructive way - less likely to be dismissed as "nagging", IMO.
Do you guys prefer the 3.5 style flurry (real medium BAB with additional attacks at the highest attack bonus, i.e. +15/+15/+15/+15/+10/+5) or the Pathfinder style flurry (pseudo-full BAB with attacks in iterative order like TWF, i.e. +18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3)?
Pathfinder gives one additional attack (and one more with ki), but in many ways I actually prefer the old 3.5 way simply because your top four attacks are more consistent.
Your thoughts?
MA
I think I prefer the 3.5 Flurry numbers. Having more attacks doesn't really matter, if you can't hit with them.
Much prefer the 3.5 Flurry mechanic. Never agreed that it was a 3/4 BAB class, but that's a different argument.
PF Flurry is way more convoluted than necessary. 3.5 was simple.
No, there has been no real answer. The monk appears to be the Asian-style mystic from the weapons and abilities, but the most effective monk combat-wise is a clone of the Incredible Hulk.
I tried to make my Mystic Monk a class that could be re-skinned for a variety of concepts of the trained, warrior-philosopher that emphasises skill over brute force from a shaolin priest to a dashing musketeer.
On the subject of flurry-of-blows, I agree that attacks that don't hit are no fun. I can see why Paizo did what they did with flurry, I can work with it, but really flurry needs it's own mechanic.
Wraithstrike made an interesting suggestion in this thread, Reimagining the Monk, Why Not a Contest?.
Instead of rewriting the CRB monk, why not make an alternate monk class, ala the ninja, samurai, and anti-paladin? It gives the people who say they like the monk as it what they want, and might give us what we want.
Thoughts?
MA
MA,
I think I might actually agree with you.
MA,
I think I might actually agree with you.
Will wonders ever cease? LOL
MA
Just to get my 2cp in there, I actually prefer the Pathfinder +18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3. The extra +3 on first two attacks is a nice boost and any additional attacks get that as well. So your extra Ki attack and/or Haste attack is also at +18. It brings the Monk in line with a two-weapon fighter (although I don't think that flurry should be two-weapon fighting).
I have been going over it in my head for some time now and I am really starting to like Dabbler's "Wis to attack" rule. It is a nice way to give the Monk a boost and still allow people to go either Str or Dex as their primary physical stat.
As for patience, their own time line (after the Cons) has come and gone. I will try to remain patient, but I am really starting to go from patient to annoyed. Just sayin'.
Dabbler and Ciretose over on the "If monks have trouble hitting" thread has gotten me thinking about stunning fist and how to make it work better. One option that I have been exploring to remove the daily uses and key it to triggering on a critical hit. Since unarmed strikes (heck, most monk weapons) only acheive a confirmed critical on a 20 (19-20 with improved crit), I think that it could be workable. Anyway, it is posted in the thread "Stunning Strike" here on these boards.
Do you think Stunning Fist needs to be revamped/reimagined/reexplored, or is it fine the way it is?
MA
I answered in that thread, no. Wait and see the other monk fixes before mucking about with stunning fist because it IS a game changer when it works. If you improve hitting and getting through DR, I think stunning fist will fix itself.
Like I said in the other thread, I just remove the need for the Monk to deal damage with stunning fist.
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You know, I've been trying to advocate patience recently, but it'd be nice to get some kind of word from someone other than 'we're working on it'.
I'm beginning to think of Valve Time....
[Edit] Just realized, it's been 3/4 of a year since this whole thing started.
I'm in two minds. Given the design team are presumedly about to get crazy-busy with the mythic playtest, I wonder if any deadline they'd suggest would therefore be framed conservatively. They copped some flak recently since "after gen con" was taken by some to mean "immediately after gen con" - if i were in their position and was asked to pin down a time I'd add a few hopefully unnecessary months, just to be sure.
It can't be easy to schedule design time for work which isn't directly tied to new product. "When we get a chance" is probably the reality.
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I understand the need for new product, but one of the downfalls of 3.5, in my opinion at least, was the constant press for new material, without fixing the old stuff.
As time goes on, more and more stuff comes to light with broken feats, items, spells, classes, and instead of fixing the stuff they'd already released, they're just leaving it as is. Every time a new book is released, there's a flurry of activity with new FAQs, Errata, etc, then it all just shuts down until the next book comes out.
Look at the Ultimate Equipment Errata thread. One guy has several pages of errors, many of which were already present in previous books and never got fixed then either.
They have a powerful resource available to them via these forums. Many people pick apart the books word-for-word, when they come out, just trying to help improve the game. A lot of the work is being done for them, and all they have to do is come in and copy paste and fix it. Hell, many of the people would probably volunteer their time to do the fixing for them. Once it's done, it's done, and they really don't have to worry about it after then, because once the next printing happens it'll all be int he Errata.
As it stands, I feel like I'm sitting around waiting for another shoe to drop, only for, seemingly, nothing happening.
I really don't mind if their taking their time working on it, mulling things over if you will, but a little word here, a little word there, can do wonders to keep irritation levels from building.
I mean, something like, "Work on the Monk issue is slow going, but we were tossing around some ideas earlier," would be fantastic. Granted, they probably haven't been tossing around ideas, but I find it unlikely that they hadn't put at least a couple minutes thoughts about it, even if only to themselves. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it was stated that the Monk issue was a priority, but, at this point, I can't help but wonder: priority compared to what?
Stealth fix?
Rogue fix?
Pathfinder 2?
Summoner nerf?
I don't want to come off as bashing the Developers, I just don't like feeling like this issue is being ignored, hoping the players that care, will give up and go away.
Not going to happen, Tels, and the devs know it. Like Kato in the fridge, we will leap out when they think we are safe and surprise them again...