Possibly. Or we could keep bouncing ideas around for the tweak-fixes Paizo are now talking about.
I think we are all agreed that the monk needs a boost to hit and something to get past DR. There are other niggles, like getting past MAD, but these are the main ones. So any suggestions on how to do that? I have considered:
- Make ki-strike impart a natural enhancement bonus. Pros: simple and direct, and gets through DR. Cons: Paizo may not like the effect on the AoMF and on damage output as it gets relegated to providing effects only.
- As above, make it an enhancement bonus to hit only. As above, but no knock-on effect on damage.
- Give monks an insight bonus to hit with monk weapons. Pros: it can stack with an AoMF. Cons: doesn't help vs. DR.
- Together with the above, give monks a ki-based ability to bypass DR - spend a ki-point, bypass all the DR of a designated target for one minute.
On the MAD front, how about fixing Wholeness of Body to a swift action and permitting the monk to use Wisdom bonus to hit on all attacks with maneuvers, unarmed strikes and monk weapons?
I know Wisdom fits thematically, Dabbler, but having given this some thought myself, it opens up the possibility of a cleric or druid or inquisitor or oracle dipping one level in monk to gain Wisdom to hit. So how about Dexterity to his and damage instead. Say, Weapon Finesse at second level . . . and incorporate the agile weapon property into that, so that you also use your Dexterity modifier on damage.
Combined that with a Fighter Weapon Training-style unnamed bonus on attack rolls only (with special monk weapons and unarmed strikes, or just with unarmed strikes . . . either is good with me) and we would solve two-thirds of the problems of the monk. Get that first +1 at 5th level, then an additional +1 at 9th, 13th, and 17th level.
Ki pool, add two more swift action abilities. Spend 1 ki point to ignore the effects of 5 points of DR per attack that hits, for one creature, for one round. At a certain level, let this go to ignore 10 points of DR. Second new ability, spend 1 ki point to gain an additional attack when the monk charges, uses the Spring Attack feat, spends a move action to move more than 10' in a single round; this attack is at your highest attack bonus, as per flurry of blows.
Either that, or spend 1 point of ki to take a 5' step between attacks in a flurry of blows; a monk is able to take two steps per round from f1rst to 7th level, three steps from 8th to 14th level, and four steps from 15th level to 20th level.
Dealt with MAD, to hit percentages, DR, and mobility vs. flurry. Done.
I like your Wholeness of Body idea as a swift action, but it really needs to heal at least 3d6+your monk level, maximum of +20. That would put it on the same level as somewhere between a cure moderate and a cure serious. Right now, it heals between 14 and 40 points as a standard action. This would heal 3d6+7 for a 7th level monk . . . which is an average of 17.5 points vs. 14 points. Slightly more than previous, as a swift action. Not quite as much as the upper end (20th level would be 30.5 healed vs. 40 healed), but the difference is low and it is a swift action.
MA
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So shall we all, my brother. Anyone got a deck of cards?
MA
I just wish we knew what the Devs think the problems are, because based on the Wrap debacle I don't have any idea what they think the problem is.
They literally added an another item that will make it harder to fix the unarmed attack bonus problem, and it takes the same slot as a monk robe.
Preaching to the choir, Ciretose.
Hmmmmm? Perhaps we need to assemble a list of what we as players and DMs see as the problems with the class.
1. MAD: Monks require good Strength, Dexterity, and Wisdom, and cannot afford to dump either Constitution or Intelligence. Charisma is the only stat for which there is not a need (even then, some builds will require Charisma as well).
2. "Flurry of Misses": Inability to hit on a consistent basis with unarmed strike due to (a) lack of enhancement bonuses at or near the same level as other classes and (b) small attributes bonuses due to (1.) above.
3. Inability to penetrate DR: Although a monk's base unarmed damage is capable of penetrating nearly all DR if you roll well, two dice, especially two LARGE die such as d8s and d10s will tend to roll closer to average a large portion of the time. Add to that the most common method of enchanting unarmed strike (the Amulet of Mighty Fists) is not actually a magic weapon and therefore does not grant unarmed strikes the ability to bypass DR based on the enhancement bonus. As a further insult, only the fighter class is allowed to take Penetrating Strike and Greater Penetrating Strike. I have always thought these were absolutely perfect feats designed for the monk. Except that they are fighter only.
4. Mobility vs. full-attack flurries: The monk's two signature abilities do not mesh well together. When he moves, he attacks with a lower attack bonus, he is limited to one attack, and yet he has no actual ability to aid him in making Acrobatics checks to move through occupied or threatened spaces without suffering an AoO. The monk needs a method (perhaps spending a point of ki) to make an additional attack on a move at his flurry attack bonus. This would still keep it done only in the serious fights because ki is very finite resource.
Any others you fellows want to add?
MA
Seriously? People are getting hot under the collar in the other thread, and I ask everyone to take a break from the topic for a couple of days so the Paizo staff can enjoy their last weekend before Gen Con, and you post about it anyway? Seriously?
Edit: You know what? I'm out. Out of these threads, out of the monk discussion. I'm the Paizo designer who's the most active on the message boards, and your insistence on pushing this instead has pushed me away. Congrats.
Seriously? People are getting hot under the collar in the other thread, and I ask everyone to take a break from the topic for a couple of days so the Paizo staff can enjoy their last weekend before Gen Con, and you post about it anyway? Seriously?
Sean, this thread has been going since March. It is not dealing the monk magic items from UE, as the one you shut down. We did not start a new thread; this one has been discussing monks and monk issues for the past five months. You want all discussion on monks to stop? Is that what you are asking?
Master Arminas
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Sean we love your input, but I think you are overreacting to what was a civil conversation by putting a moratorium on any discussion of monks.
Ultimate Equipment looks great from most accounts. I hope to have my copy in hand as soon as delivery crosses the coasts, but those of us hoping for either a monk fix or at leave good ju ju in the tea leaves we can glean from what love the monk was given were disappointed in that aspect of the book.
I can see how it would be frustrating to pour energy into a project as large as the Ultimate Equipment guide and then see negative feedback about it on the messageboard before most people have even received it, but it is just negative feedback on one aspect.
You all are stuck between a rock and a hard place because you all haven't gotten into a room to sort out the discussion, and you personally have been singled out by some on here in a killing the messenger kind of way.
I think the reasonable among us get that.
And further, the reasonable among us realize that Jason honestly thought he was being clear in wording and there was no "change" a few months ago.
But at the same time part of the purposed of the messageboard is for the customers to have a forum to vent frustration and provide feedback with regards to changes we would like to see going forward.
And that thread wasn't really that hostile...well the title MA started it with was...(sorry MA...) but the content was basically I thought a fairly civil discussion of concerns and an attempt to come to consensus on what the problems are.
We don't know what you all think the problem is. Apparently you all haven't sat down and come to a consensus on what the problems are either.
Fine.
But deleting discussion isn't exactly going to make us all more patient.
Enjoy your weekend, enjoy the Con. It's not like you all are going to be weighing in on the discussion until you all discuss it with each other, and as MA has said this thread is 5 months old and so far it hasn't been locked.
If this is all going to be addressed after Gen Con, who really cares about if the people on the messageboard are b!$%@ing about the new monk items.
At least we are talking about (and in my case at least, buying) the product.
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Preaching to the choir, Ciretose.
Hmmmmm? Perhaps we need to assemble a list of what we as players and DMs see as the problems with the class.
1. MAD: Monks require good Strength, Dexterity, and Wisdom, and cannot afford to dump either Constitution or Intelligence. Charisma is the only stat for which there is not a need (even then, some builds will require Charisma as well).
2. "Flurry of Misses": Inability to hit on a consistent basis with unarmed strike due to (a) lack of enhancement bonuses at or near the same level as other classes and (b) small attributes bonuses due to (1.) above.
3. Inability to penetrate DR: Although a monk's base unarmed damage is capable of penetrating nearly all DR if you roll well, two dice, especially two LARGE die such as d8s and d10s will tend to roll closer to average a large portion of the time. Add to that the most common method of enchanting unarmed strike (the Amulet of Mighty Fists) is not actually a magic weapon and therefore does not grant unarmed strikes the ability to bypass DR based on the enhancement bonus. As a further insult, only the fighter class is allowed to take Penetrating Strike and Greater Penetrating Strike. I have always thought these were absolutely perfect feats designed for the monk. Except that they are fighter only.
4. Mobility vs. full-attack flurries: The monk's two signature abilities do not mesh well together. When he moves, he attacks with a lower attack bonus, he is limited to one attack, and yet he has no actual ability to aid him in making Acrobatics checks to move through occupied or threatened spaces without suffering an AoO. The monk needs a method (perhaps spending a point of ki) to make an additional attack on a move at his flurry attack bonus. This would still keep it done only in the serious fights because ki is very finite resource.
Any others you fellows want to add?
MA
I only subscribe to #2 and #3 being a problem. The rest I think are part of balance.
I agree with Jason, I don't want the monk to outshine a fighter or barb.
Wow...
Go enjoy the con, man. Take a break.
Forget about monks for awhile.
But please, do not imply that rational discussion is something to be punished for by removing your presence.
Have a blast, and see ya in a week or so.
EDIT: BTW, MA, you're such a trouble maker!! ;P
Wow...
Go enjoy the con, man. Take a break.Forget about monks for awhile.
But please, do not imply that rational discussion is something to be punished for by removing your presence.
Have a blast, and see ya in a week or so.
EDIT: BTW, MA, you're such a trouble maker!! ;P
Such is my curse in life, sigh. LOL
MA
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Both. I've seen Temple Sword wielding trippers, full attack spammers, and super mobile combat manuever junkies.
All were effective and didn't have any trouble keeping up with paladins, barbarians, and fighters at the table.
Temple swords are out with the new ruling (unless you have two), I'm not sure what you mean by full attack spammers and combat manuever junkie is a great way to go until you run into things you can't grapple or trip for whatever reason.
The problem is a bit overstated. I think weapon focused monks are fine for the most part.
The problem is the cost to enhance unarmed attack bonus is prohibitive (in gold and also in occupying a slot) relative to other classes options.
And don't forget, since the temple sword is not a light weapon, that means that it SHOULD have a -4 penalty (not -2) for the primary and off-hand attacks if you use two of them. Now if you can use one and your unarmed strikes, it will stay a -2.
But how that works with the phrase "there is so such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed" I have no idea.
MA
I allow the monk to spend 1 ki point to allow DR bypass at certain levels:
Piercing at 6th
Slashing at 8th
Cold iron at 12th
Silver at 14th.
The monk spends 1 ki point (swift action), and his unarmed strikes bypass the DR that the monk chooses until the beginning of his next turn.
Not a bad idea, there, Theconiel.
MA
And don't forget, since the temple sword is not a light weapon, that means that it SHOULD have a -4 penalty (not -2) for the primary and off-hand attacks if you use two of them. Now if you can use one and your unarmed strikes, it will stay a -2.
But how that works with the phrase "there is so such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed" I have no idea.
MA
I would imagine it means that whatever unarmed strikes your making in a flurry would be considered main hand and everything else would be off hand... which might not be great.
Well, it would be a -4 on all attacks if a temple sword was the off-hand weapon then.
MA
We will just have to wait to get our answer from the Devs sometime after GenCon.
It's disheartening to watch one of the lead developers /ragequit because of... what exactly? A civil discussion?
Look, Sean, the silence from you and other official sources on the topic has been a pretty crystal clear indicator that you're not ready to address things yet. We were told that changes would have to wait until sometime after Gencon, so we'll just have to live with that. But if you don't think your comment (that, even after five months now, there has been ZERO official [u]discussion[/u] on the monk issues) wouldn't cause some stirring in the public forum... Are you kidding yourself?
The Monk, for various reasons that you are already aware of, is broken. That's a HUGE deal, and we're NOT going to let it fall off the radar. If you're getting tired of the forum community throwing a broken class in your face, then just take some time away from the forum community. We thought that's what you were already doing anyway. But to suggest we should just stop talking about it? Sorry, but that's just not how things work. We're going to discuss things until they're fixed, whether that's tomorrow, a week from now, a year from now, whatever.
(And for what it's worth, I totally understand why this topic frustrates you. You've taken a lot of blame from a portion of the community simply because you were the mouth that brought the bad news. That's not fair to you.
But also please try to remember that your voice carries a LOT more weight around here than ours. So please just remember that the next time you get to a place where you want to leave us with a comment like your last one here, yeah?)
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I allow the monk to spend 1 ki point to allow DR bypass at certain levels:
Piercing at 6th
Slashing at 8th
Cold iron at 12th
Silver at 14th.
The monk spends 1 ki point (swift action), and his unarmed strikes bypass the DR that the monk chooses until the beginning of his next turn.
Actually this is appalling. Piercing & Slashing you can get past with Tiger Style or Snake Style. They really do not matter. By 8th level most warriors can have a +3 weapon that ignores cold iron and silver, so the ki-point at these levels is way late in the game.
Look, the devs have stated they do not want to change items and do not want to improve the monk's damage output. What we need is to bypass DR at lower levels, where it actually matters. One ki-point to bypass any DR at 4th level is not broken given the monk's damage output and it allows him to do his job. It means he can hit enemies where they are vulnerable, which is what he is supposed to do. It means his Stunning Fist can work on more targets, which makes it actually useful.
"But that means he can bypass ANY DR at low level!" I hear you say. To which I answer, "So what? It's not like he can inflict much damage compared to the hit points of a DR 15/good & cold iron creature, is it? All he can do at that level is get himself dead."
The effect would have to last a minute to be worth the ki loss, but could be restricted to one foe much as the paladin's smite is (which also bypasses all DR, it has to be added).
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Um guys? I think what Sean go mad about was he specifically asked no one to post in the "Lack of Monk items in Ultimate Equipment" thread until after the weekend, only for people to outright ignore him and continue posting.
He's been following the thread and commented several times in it, but wasn't going to be able to keep an eye on it over the weekend and didn't want it to blow up with some 500 posts that he'd need to read through.
I can see where he's coming from, he's a busy guy and having to spend hours of his day reading through a thread that (in many cases) had nothing but vitrol about Monks, Paizo or the Development team isn't something anyone would want to do. Its not like it was something that was too much to ask, to just lay off for a few days, but no one would listen (or felt 'just one more can't hurt').
In many ways, I think he's justified. He's receieved blatant disrespect from a number of posters (myself included). People have bashed him for being the mouth of the design team, attacked his skills, his intelligence and his talent as a designer and a gamer. He's been argued with and ignored, taunted an mocked. Is it really a wonder that he got fed up with all the b!!$!*&+ he receives trying to do us a favor?
He's only human.
But that thread is not this thread.
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Um guys? I think what Sean go mad about was he specifically asked no one to post in the "Lack of Monk items in Ultimate Equipment" thread until after the weekend, only for people to outright ignore him and continue posting.
He's been following the thread and commented several times in it, but wasn't going to be able to keep an eye on it over the weekend and didn't want it to blow up with some 500 posts that he'd need to read through.
I can see where he's coming from, he's a busy guy and having to spend hours of his day reading through a thread that (in many cases) had nothing but vitrol about Monks, Paizo or the Development team isn't something anyone would want to do. Its not like it was something that was too much to ask, to just lay off for a few days, but no one would listen (or felt 'just one more can't hurt').
In many ways, I think he's justified. He's receieved blatant disrespect from a number of posters (myself included). People have bashed him for being the mouth of the design team, attacked his skills, his intelligence and his talent as a designer and a gamer. He's been argued with and ignored, taunted an mocked. Is it really a wonder that he got fed up with all the b%~@$~*% he receives trying to do us a favor?
He's only human.
He is only human. I don't blame him for being frustrated that we don't like the monk part of the book he's spent months working on (the rest looks great, hence me buying it.)
But erasing every post that criticizes the issue isn't the right approach.
Frankly the only reason I'm not more upset about the over the top censorship of criticism is because it is SKR, and he is awesome and comes on here to be part of the dialog. So I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt because he has earned the benefit of the doubt.
This is the internet. Everyone on here at one point or another gets taunted and mocked.
But it isn't out of bounds to voice criticism of a product. Particularly if you are a paying customer. And if that criticism is polite and constructive, it is out of bounds in my opinion to delete it without cause.
And I didn't see anything particularly over the top in that thread.
I'm taking this all as Sean being really stressed and perhaps disappointed the rollout of a new book is being marred by criticism of one, relatively small aspect of the book.
I bought the book. It is in the mail. Based on what I've read it does a lot of things I like and didn't do one thing I wanted it to do.
I am now on a messageboard explaining to the publisher how to get more of my money.
Why delete that?
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As someone who's had to battle my own anger issues in a professional environment for many many years, I have a great deal of sympathy on a personal level for SKR. It can be very hard to not just smash what's angering you or tell people to 'f' off. So, he has my sympathy on a personal level.
On the other hand, on a consumer level, I find the idea of ANY company deleting posts because they're critical of the company/product to be annoying and unethical. Now, posts that are vitriolic or violate posting rules for language etc are different than deleting an entire thread because you don't want to hear the criticisms. And I'm afraid that asking people not to post on what's upsetting them is not really very realistic in the modern age.
So, while I have a great deal of sympathy for SKR and his frustration levels, I find myself losing a bit of respect for Paizo over deletion of critical threads. Mostly, I'm just disappointed on it all around.
I think it points out a mistake on Paizo's part concerning FAQs. The emphasis was on getting new books out, and this left the customer base hanging for months, which allowed frustration, anger and resentment to fester. This feeds back into the forums, which forms a negative feedback loop to the developers. I don't think any of this would have gotten this bad if SKR and JB would have taken an hour or two out of their admittedly busy schedules and hammered out the TWF/Monk Flurry tizzy back in April/May. Yes, the new stuff brings in money, but alienating even small segments of your customer base loses sales. It's a balancing act that every segment of the business world has to walk.
I think a few hours of time a few months ago, even as busy as they were, would have saved them a ton of headaches. How much time did SKR and JB have to spend putting out fires on threads in the intervening time? How much resentment built on both sides? Hopefully this will be a 'lesson learned' sort of thing, so I'll try to hope for that.
Guys . . . I just had a crazy thought.
How about something completely and totally insane and off-the-wall. Instead of beefing up the enhancement bonuses of the monk or solving MAD, we instead make it worse.
Drop the BAB to Low, while keeping the Hit Die at d8. But allow the monk's unarmed strikes to use the target's touch AC?
Gunslinger's do it, with a higher BAB. The lower BAB would slow down attacks per round, so go back to 3.5 flurry (with the decreasing penalty); one extra attack at 1st, and a second at 11th. Eventually get up to +10/+10/+10/+5, with the possibility to buy another attack with ki, or get two more attacks through Medusa's Wrath, or both. Plus haste.
Of course, the entire idea could be too crazy. But I thought I would throw it out there.
MA
Using touch AC breaks so many things.
I don't think that's a good idea.
Just throwing it out there. I knew it was a crazy idea.
MA
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All right, bad idea all around.
MA
Using Touch AC isn't such a bad idea for the monk's Stunning Fist, though - you only get one attempt per round, and it makes Stunning Fist effective.
Stunning Miss? Heheh, yeah.
How about this.
Flurry is a Standard Action (can take a move and still Flurry)
Use the Flurry chart as is.
Wisdom to hit and damage only on a Flurry.
If Flurry BAB is based ONLY on Monk levels, not those of other classes, Dragonamedrake . . . yeah, I could go for that. Stopping those dippers HARD we will. :)
MA
If Flurry BAB is based ONLY on Monk levels, not those of other classes, Dragonamedrake . . . yeah, I could go for that. Stopping those dippers HARD we will. :)
MA
Well the way I understand it from the FAQ....
A Fighter 19/Monk 1 who flurried would only get +18/+18... just two attacks. Not really worth a dip.
If Flurry BAB is based ONLY on Monk levels, not those of other classes, Dragonamedrake . . . yeah, I could go for that. Stopping those dippers HARD we will. :)
MA
Well the way I understand it from the FAQ....
A Fighter 19/Monk 1 who flurried would only get +18/+18... just two attacks. Not really worth a dip.
That is true . . . until you consider a Cleric or a Druid (perhaps one with feral combat training, eh?). Wisdom to attack and damage during flurry would make it VERY attractive to those two classes.
MA
I admit, The Monk Lobby is getting tiresome. I can't open the fridge without having some "MONK WAS A FAILURE FOR THE LAST 12 YEARS AND IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT" thread jump at me.
The threads are usually marked and can be avoided . . . right Gorbacz? I mean, if you enter a thread named Flurry of Changes to Flurry of Blows that has in excess of 1,200 seperate posts, you should have a slight expectation that it will include griping and complaining and bickering and debating on the latest thing that has set off monk players? ;)
Master Arminas
If Flurry BAB is based ONLY on Monk levels, not those of other classes, Dragonamedrake . . . yeah, I could go for that. Stopping those dippers HARD we will. :)
MA
Well the way I understand it from the FAQ....
A Fighter 19/Monk 1 who flurried would only get +18/+18... just two attacks. Not really worth a dip.
That is true . . . until you consider a Cleric or a Druid (perhaps one with feral combat training, eh?). Wisdom to attack and damage during flurry would make it VERY attractive to those two classes.
MA
A Cleric or Druid would still only get 2 attacks from a Dip in Monk... But ok....
Flurry is a Standard Action (can take a move and still Flurry)
Use the Flurry chart as is.
Wisdom to hit and damage with unarmed attacks or monk weapons only on a Flurry.
At 5th level a Monk can Charge and Flurry as a Full Round Action.
This cuts out Druids from benefiting.
If a Cleric wants to move 30 feat and punch someone twice I dont see that as an issue... they wont be breaking any DPR charts.
If someone takes 5 levels of a class its not a dip. Its a part of their character. 5th level charge/flurry seems a good spot.
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In my defense, I used to be a monk defender.
Then they clarified the ruling that you can't attack after abundant step (later fixed to my satisfaction with a feat)
Then they took away brass knuckles and I had to admit not being able to keep up unarmed. (Which is my personal beef, never addressed)
I never thought it was anything but TWF, and I always thought the temple sword stuff was cheese (unless as I suggest they want to make that an archetype that gives up other monk stuff.) so that didn't bother me.
But not being able to hit unarmed...yeah, I want that fixed. I get why brass knuckles weren't the "right" fix, but they need to come up with something because AoMF isn't cutting it. It is priced to contain creatures with more than two arms and it takes a slot.
So I had to change sides and admit the monk needs a bump. Just to unarmed attack. That is my only concern. That this can't be fixed in a very simple way makes me think the Devs don't see the problem the way I do, so I am advocating my position.
That they need to allow a slotless way to boost unarmed attack that is appropriately priced.
Do that, and then I'll go back to defending the monk.
How would you all feel if Amulet of Mighty Fists excluded natural attacks and only worked on unarmed attacks? Do you all feel that this would allow it to be cheaper since now it narrows down the usage from druids?
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Behold, Ciretose, I grant unto you the fighting gloves of the monk! No magic weapons, these! But wonderous items which consume the hands slot (alas, the cost of making them slotless would have been far too much, in my humble opinion).
Cost is bonus squared x 3,000 gp, which is higher than a single weapon, but since you can’t disarm unarmed strikes and they are always available, I think this is a reasonably good compromise between the Amulet of Mighty Fists and a regular standard old magic weapon.
I know that item fixes are not going to happen, but this would solve a good number of the monk's problems; not all of them, but a good number of them.
Aura: Faint (+1), Moderate (+2, +3), or Strong (+4, +5) Transmutation
CL: 3rd (+1), 6th (+2), 9th (+3), 12th (+4), or 15th (+5)
Slot: Hands
Price: 3,000 (+1), 12,000 (+2), 27,000 (+3), 48,000 (+4), 75,000 (+5)
Weight: --
Description: These lightweight, fingerless, leather gloves confer great benefits in unarmed combat upon the wearer. They grant an enhancement bonus ranging from +1 and +5 on attacks and damage made with unarmed strikes (but not with natural weapons). Fighting gloves do not have a fixed damage; they are not weapons. They simply augment the existing unarmed strikes of the wearer. Both gloves must be worn for the magic to be effective. Fighting gloves cannot benefit from weapon special properties, only from enhancement bonuses to hit and damage. In addition, the wearer of a set of fighting gloves may apply the enhancement bonus to any combat maneuvers which are carried out while unarmed, to include disarm, grapple, sunder, and trip maneuvers provided that such maneuvers are made while the wearer of this item is unarmed armed. In a similar fashion to magic weapons, a character wearing fighting gloves bypasses certain types of Damage Reduction based upon the enhancement bonus of this item. +3 fighting gloves will bypass DR based on cold iron or silver; +4 fighting gloves will byapss DR based on adamantine (but does not ignore hardness); and +5 fighting gloves will bypass alignment-based DR.
Aura: Moderate (+2, +3), or Strong (+4, +5) Transmutation
CL: 6th (+2), 9th (+3), 12th (+4), or 15th (+5)
Slot: Hands
Price: 27,000 (+2), 42,000 (+3), 63,000 (+4), 90,000 (+5)
Weight: --
Description: These lightweight, fingerless, leather gloves confer great benefits in unarmed combat upon the wearer. They grant an enhancement bonus ranging from +1 and +5 on attacks and damage made with unarmed strikes (but not with natural weapons). Fighting gloves do not have a fixed damage; they are not weapons. They simply augment the existing unarmed strikes of the wearer. If worn by a character who possesses the Stunning Fist feat, the gloves grant a +2 enhancement bonus to the DC of the Stunning Fist. Both gloves must be worn for the magic to be effective. Fighting gloves cannot benefit from weapon special properties, only from enhancement bonuses to hit and damage. In addition, the wearer of a set of fighting gloves may apply the enhancement bonus to any combat maneuvers which are carried out while unarmed, to include disarm, grapple, sunder, and trip maneuvers provided that such maneuvers are made while the wearer of this item is unarmed armed. In a similar fashion to magic weapons, a character wearing fighting gloves bypasses certain types of Damage Reduction based upon the enhancement bonus of this item. +3 fighting gloves will bypass DR based on cold iron or silver; +4 fighting gloves will byapss DR based on adamantine (but does not ignore hardness); and +5 fighting gloves will bypass alignment-based DR.
Aura: Moderate (+3), or Strong (+4, +5) Transmutation
CL: 9th (+3), 12th (+4), or 15th (+5)
Slot: Hands
Price: 57,000 (+3), 78,000 (+4), 105,000 (+5)
Weight: --
Description: These lightweight, fingerless, leather gloves confer great benefits in unarmed combat upon the wearer. They grant an enhancement bonus ranging from +1 and +5 on attacks and damage made with unarmed strikes (but not with natural weapons). Fighting gloves do not have a fixed damage; they are not weapons. They simply augment the existing unarmed strikes of the wearer. If worn by a character who possesses the Stunning Fist feat, the gloves grant a +2 enhancement bonus to the DC of the Stunning Fist. If worn by a character who possesses the Quivering Palm special ability, the gloves grant a +2 enhancement bonus to the DC of the Quivering Palm. Both gloves must be worn for the magic to be effective. Fighting gloves cannot benefit from weapon special properties, only from enhancement bonuses to hit and damage. In addition, the wearer of a set of fighting gloves may apply the enhancement bonus to any combat maneuvers which are carried out while unarmed, to include disarm, grapple, sunder, and trip maneuvers provided that such maneuvers are made while the wearer of this item is unarmed armed. In a similar fashion to magic weapons, a character wearing fighting gloves bypasses certain types of Damage Reduction based upon the enhancement bonus of this item. +3 fighting gloves will bypass DR based on cold iron or silver; +4 fighting gloves will byapss DR based on adamantine (but does not ignore hardness); and +5 fighting gloves will bypass alignment-based DR.
How would you all feel if Amulet of Mighty Fists excluded natural attacks and only worked on unarmed attacks? Do you all feel that this would allow it to be cheaper since now it narrows down the usage from druids?
YES. To explain, at 5,000 gp x bonus squared, the AoMF is priced at higher than a double weapon. But it is my belief that unarmed strikes are ONE weapon, and that therefore while some increase in price is called for by nature of that weapon being immune to disarm and sunder, a multiple of x2.5 is not the ideal solution.
In fact, I posted what I would consider a solution above, Odraude. What I would like to see if something like my fighting gloves for monks and other unarmed combat specialists, and the amulet of mighty fists become the amulet of natural weapons for druids and critters. Change the pricing to a base 2,000 gp x bonus squared . . . to enchant a single natural weapon. Allow the druid (or critter) to add additional natural weapons to the AoNW at +750 gp x bonused squared; i.e. 2 attacks = 2,750 gp x bonus squared, 3 attacks = 3,500 gp x bonus squared, 4 attacks = 4,250 gp x bonus squared, 5 attacks = 5,000 gp x bonus squared, etc.
Master Arminas
A Cleric or Druid would still only get 2 attacks from a Dip in Monk...
It's not the flurry, it's the "add Wisdom Bonus to attack and damage" they are dipping for. CoDzilla got toned down in Pathfinder, let's not give him a power-up. Monk weapons only does NOT stop monks and druids from taking advantage of it, it's as good as most monk weapons. Cleric of Erastil/Zen Archer anyone? Dump-stat dex and strength and still mow down on-comers with your bow. It makes a warrior-cleric a one-stat-wonder, better than any fighter.
My ideas for a fix still come down to:
- An insight or untyped bonus to hit with monk weapons and unarmed attacks. Damage does NOT need a boost if we have another means of getting past DR.
- A ki-power to bypass DR - all DR, this allows the monk to 'exploit vulnerabilities' as they are supposed to do.
- Weapon Finesse & Agile Maneuvers as free feats, and wholeness of body as a swift action, in order to reduce MAD.
Items don't matter. Paizo don't want items, and I have to agree I don't want them either.
Guys . . . I just had a crazy thought.
How about something completely and totally insane and off-the-wall. Instead of beefing up the enhancement bonuses of the monk or solving MAD, we instead make it worse.
Drop the BAB to Low, while keeping the Hit Die at d8. But allow the monk's unarmed strikes to use the target's touch AC?
Gunslinger's do it, with a higher BAB. The lower BAB would slow down attacks per round, so go back to 3.5 flurry (with the decreasing penalty); one extra attack at 1st, and a second at 11th. Eventually get up to +10/+10/+10/+5, with the possibility to buy another attack with ki, or get two more attacks through Medusa's Wrath, or both. Plus haste.
Of course, the entire idea could be too crazy. But I thought I would throw it out there.
MA
I already suggested that and was shot down. that would make the monk to "powerful" lol
anyone ever gone through the bestiary to actually see how touch ac would stack up to that through the levels? Seems kind of pointless to say 'lets switch their attacks over to touch' without knowing whether touch ac and half base attack would too powerful or not.