I think it would work fine as is, no-one is dipping the senei. If it's not available from level 1 the monk at low level is at a massive disadvantage if he doesn't max out strength which is back to the MAD problem.
Okay, let's do that. Here is a level 10 vanilla fighter, no archetypes, built on a 20 point buy.
Str 16 (10 pts), Dex 15 (7 pts), Con 14 (5 pts), Int 10, Wis 12 (2 pts), Cha 7 (-4 pts). Put the +2 stat bonus in Str, with the 4th and the 8th level increase both in Dex. Final Stats: Str 18, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 7.
He has 62,000 gp available.
Equipment: +2 mithril breastplate (8,350 gp), +2 ring of protection (8,000 gp), a belt of physical might (Strength and Dexterity) +2 (10,000 gp), an amulet of natural armor +1 (2,000 gp), gloves of dueling (15,000 gp), cloak of resistance +1 (1,000 gp), and two +2 short swords (16,600 gp). Total spent 60,970 gp.
That gives him stats of Str 20, Dex 19, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 7, with an average of 79.5 hit points and an AC of 24 (not counting any feats). Saves are Fort +10, Ref +7, Will +5 (before feats).
He has a BAB of +10. His feats are Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Defense, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Double-slice, Weapon Focus (short sword), Weapon Specialization (short sword), Greater Weapon Focus (short sword), and Improved Critical (short sword). Plus three more. He selected Light Blades for weapon training 1 (and thus has a +2 at this level).
His attacks are +21/+21/+14/+14 for 1d6+13 points of damage with a critical of 17-20/x2 when two-weapon fighting.
Do that with a monk of the same level. Fighting with weapons or unarmed. Come close to that with a monk of the same level.
While I agree that the monk needs some fixes, I do not agree that MAD is a problem (I rather see it as an advantage as each attribute has benefits and the monk gets more out of his Wis than most other classes), and I don't agree with comparisons with fighters who can do nothing but fight.
And I don't aspire to come close to the fighters attacks and damage because a fighter can't do anything else so he should be the best at that.Furthermore I don't like characters with dump stats, especially when it is Cha. Wo wants to play a character with Cha 7? I certainly don't (maybe once). Who wants to interact with s.o. with Cha 7? This should entail severe social problems thereby really reducing the fighter to be nothing more than a killing machine (boring).
But ok, to make the comparison more fair, I'll gonna dump Cha for the monk, too. And Int.
Str 15 (7 pts), Dex 14 (5 pts), Con 14 (5 pts), Int 10, Wis 15 (7 pts), Cha 7 (-4 pts). Put the +2 stat bonus in Wis, with the 4th and the 8th level increase in Str and Wis. Final Stats: Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 7.
Equipment: +3 bracers of armor (9,000 gp), a belt of giant strength +2 (4,000 gp), a headband of inspired wisdom +2 (4,000 gp), an amulet of mighty fists +2 (20,000 gp), a monk's robe (13,000 gp), goggles of night (12,000 gp). Total spent 62,000 gp
That gives him stats of Str 18, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 20, Cha 7, with an average of 69.5 hit points and an AC of 23 (not counting any feats). Saves are Fort +9, Ref +10, Will +11 (before feats).
His feats are Skill Focus (Stealth) (H1), Dodge (M1), Weapon Focus (unarmed) (L1), Improved Grapple (M2), Skill Focus (Acrobatics) (L3), Improved Trip (M6), Extra Ki (L7), Greater Grapple (L9), Medusa's Wrath (M10). Plus one more.
His unarmed damage is 2d6+4, his Stunning fist can stun for 1r, fatigue or sicken for 1 min (DC 20, i.e. 45% chance to work on the above fighter if he hits him which has a 60% chance, i.e. a total chance of 27% to stun the fighter, which is not too bad).
He has 12 ki points and 20 more skill ranks than the fighter (and a better skill selection, resulting in lots of nice +3 class bonuses). His stealth and acrobatics skills are at 21.
Further he has evasion with a nice Ref save of +10, not to mention the vastly superior will save, slow fall, high jump, purity of body, wholeness of body and a move of 60 ft. And can see in darkness thanks to the goggles of night (the fighter did spend all of his money on fighting gear...).
His unarmed attacks are (+15)/+15/+15/+10/+10 for 2d6+6 points of damage (avg 13 vs. 16.5 of the fighter) with a critical of 20/x2.
With medusa's fist he might make two additional attacks at +15.
Summary: while he is +6/+4 behind on to hit and 3.5 behind on average damage (which is totally ok), he can do much more than the fighter who has only hit/dmg oriented feats and equipment (the fighter might do something with his the three open feats, but is behind 6 feats on the monk already on general purpose feats or combat maneuver feats, not counting dodge which brings the monk's AC on par with the fighter). All the while having superior touch AC, better saves, evasion, ki, jumping, being able to see in the dark, much better skills etc.
By my standards that's fine.
No system mastery needed at all, all attribute and feat selections are quite straightforward. Just using core rules (e.g. no style feats).
Actually, I screwed up the fighters attacks. BAB +10, -2 (Two-Weapon Fighting with light weapons), +2 (Weapon focus, Greater Weapon Focus), +2 (enhancement bonus), +4 (weapons training/gloves of dueling), and +5 (Strength modifier). Total of +21 for the first two attacks, and +16 for the second two.
So that fighter is +21/+21/+16/+16, doing 16.5 average damage (17-20/x2 critcal). When he is not power attacking.
When he does power attack, his attack bonuses are +18/+18/+13/+13, and he does 22.5 average damage (17-20/x2 critical).
The monk above (who is not power attacking) has +15/+15/+10/+10, and he does 13 average damage (20/x2 critical).
Even when the fighter is full on power-attacking, he is still THREE points of attack bonus higher than the monk and deals 9.5 more points of damage on a hit. He is FOUR times as likely to score a critical and thanks to his higher static bonuses (+13 normal, +19 PA), will do greatly more average damage on a crit (33 normal, 45 PA, vs. the monks 26).
Yes, the monk can get one more attack by spending a point of ki: twelve times a day. Yes, he can get two more attacks if he successfully stuns an opponent . . . which isn't certain by any means. He is also far less likely to hit in the first place.
A CR 10 critter should have an AC of around 24. That is an easy encounter. The fighter will hit with his primary attacks (non PA) 90% of the time, 65% of the time with his secondaries.
When power attacking, he can be expected to hit 75% of the time with his primary attacks and 50% of the time with is secondaries.
The monk hits 60% of the time with his primary attacks and 35% of the time with his secondaries.
Now let's look at a CR 13 critter, a tough fight but one that a character should still be expected to win through. Those guys have an expected AC of around 28.
The fighter (non-PA) hits 70% with his primary attacks and 45% of the time with his secondaries.
When he power attacks, he hits 55% with his primary attacks and 30% with his secondaries.
The monk? He hits 40% with his primary attacks and 15% with his secondaries.
By my standards, that is NOT fine for a martial class.
MA
While I agree that the monk needs some fixes, I do not agree that MAD is a problem (I rather see it as an advantage as each attribute has benefits and the monk gets more out of his Wis than most other classes), and I don't agree with comparisons with fighters who can do nothing but fight.
The problem is not the benefit, Liam, but that the monk cannot do without it.
* The monk NEEDS wisdom for his abilities, ki, stunning fist etc. and to have a an AC that won't make him an instantly killed target.
* The monk also NEEDS dexterity or his armour class will be sub-standard. He'll need it to hit if he pays the feat-tax to avoid having to plough everything into strength.
* Then he NEEDS strength because without it he cannot hit or do damage.
* While he NEEDS constitution because a d8 hit dice leaves him short when he's in the thick of things.
* Oh, and if he wants to be a real maneuver master he NEEDS intelligence to get Combat Expertise.
He can't afford to skimp either. If you want to keep up with the combat classes in scoring hits with 3/4 BAB you need a high hitting stat, and that means strength or dexterity pushed as far as you can. Problem is how do you afford this with everything else you have to spend on? or do you resign yourself to rarely hitting a thing in combat?
I know this looks like a lot of focus on combat, but the monk IS a combat class. He's not a caster or a skills monkey by any stretch, to have an effect he has to be able to fight, and he struggles. I agree that the monk can do stuff in a fight that the fighter cannot, but the problem here is that those things hinge on hitting (or the equivelant) and doing damage just the same.
Equipment: +3 bracers of armor (9,000 gp), a belt of giant strength +2 (4,000 gp), a headband of inspired wisdom +2 (4,000 gp), an amulet of mighty fists +2 (20,000 gp), a monk's robe (13,000 gp), goggles of night (12,000 gp). Total spent 62,000 gp.
One last thing, you cannot actually have a +2 amulet of mighty fists at 10th level. Your wealth-by-level is 62,000 gp and you should not have any single item that exceeds 25% of your total wealth-by-level. 25% of 62,000 gp is 15,500 gp. +2 amulet of mighty fists is 20,000 gp. You have to be 11th level to afford a +2 AoMF (82,000 gp WBL, 25% of which is 20,500 gp). I tend to use the balanced approach when building characters above 1st level.
Good news? That saves you 15,000 gp. Bad news, you just lost another point of attack bonus and damage, dropping down to +14/+14/+9/+9 for 2d6+5 (average damage of 12).
And that is only when you are using flurry of blows. If you have to move more than 5 feet, than you are attacking once at +13 for 2d6+5.
MA
Equipment: +3 bracers of armor (9,000 gp), a belt of giant strength +2 (4,000 gp), a headband of inspired wisdom +2 (4,000 gp), an amulet of mighty fists +2 (20,000 gp), a monk's robe (13,000 gp), goggles of night (12,000 gp). Total spent 62,000 gp.One last thing, you cannot actually have a +2 amulet of mighty fists at 10th level. Your wealth-by-level is 62,000 gp and you should not have any single item that exceeds 25% of your total wealth-by-level. 25% of 62,000 gp is 15,500 gp. +2 amulet of mighty fists is 20,000 gp. You have to be 11th level to afford a +2 AoMF (82,000 gp WBL, 25% of which is 20,500 gp). I tend to use the balanced approach when building characters above 1st level.
Good news? That saves you 15,000 gp. Bad news, you just lost another point of attack bonus and damage, dropping down to +14/+14/+9/+9 for 2d6+5 (average damage of 12).
And that is only when you are using flurry of blows. If you have to move more than 5 feet, than you are attacking once at +13 for 2d6+5.
MA
Well, I still don't think it's a problem that the fighter hits with +6 over the monk and does more damage. That's what the fighter does. The monk does more, so he should hit less well.
I didn't know the rule of 25% (so, no rings of invisibility below level 11??).
In that case: yeah, 15,000 gp to spend on other nice things. What about a belt of giant strength +4 instead of +2 (would be 500 gp over the 25% but I'd guess that's ok)? That would keep the bonuses to hit and damage the same and still leave 3000 gp to spend on, say, a hat of disguise (1800 gp) or a ring of sustenance (2500 gp).
The reduced attack bonus when moving is no problem IMHO (except for the hassle of remembering it). Having only one attack when moving hits others the same as the monk, so no real problem there either. Typically I would start with a trip when moving (yes, I know that I cannot do this with all enemies efficiently, but then I don't expect all my attacks to be equally efficient on all foes - that would be boring and remove all tactical fluff).
While I agree that the monk needs some fixes, I do not agree that MAD is a problem (I rather see it as an advantage as each attribute has benefits and the monk gets more out of his Wis than most other classes), and I don't agree with comparisons with fighters who can do nothing but fight.The problem is not the benefit, Liam, but that the monk cannot do without it.
* The monk NEEDS wisdom for his abilities, ki, stunning fist etc. and to have a an AC that won't make him an instantly killed target.
* The monk also NEEDS dexterity or his armour class will be sub-standard. He'll need it to hit if he pays the feat-tax to avoid having to plough everything into strength.
* Then he NEEDS strength because without it he cannot hit or do damage.
* While he NEEDS constitution because a d8 hit dice leaves him short when he's in the thick of things.
* Oh, and if he wants to be a real maneuver master he NEEDS intelligence to get Combat Expertise.He can't afford to skimp either. If you want to keep up with the combat classes in scoring hits with 3/4 BAB you need a high hitting stat, and that means strength or dexterity pushed as far as you can. Problem is how do you afford this with everything else you have to spend on? or do you resign yourself to rarely hitting a thing in combat?
I know this looks like a lot of focus on combat, but the monk IS a combat class. He's not a caster or a skills monkey by any stretch, to have an effect he has to be able to fight, and he struggles. I agree that the monk can do stuff in a fight that the fighter cannot, but the problem here is that those things hinge on hitting (or the equivelant) and doing damage just the same.
Comparing the fighter of Master Arminas and the monk I built in response I don't see the monk having ANY significant disadvantages from his attributes. He has less Dex (14 vs. 19), so what? His AC is the same. So the fighter has a better Initiative and a better bonus with missile weapons. I have no problem with that. The monk gets stunning fist and ki instead. He is not crippled in any way by that.
He has less Str (18 vs. 20), so what? It's only natural that the fighter hits better and does more damage. No problem and nothing crippling there either (remember: the fighter has +6 to hit but CANNOT do ANYTHING ELSE).He has the same Con but a d8 instead of a d10. So what, that's 10 hp less at level 10. Nothing crippling, especially when throwing evasion into the balance which should save him 10 hp more often than not over the fighter.
He needs Int 13 if he wants to get Combat Expertise and many Greater maneuver feats. So, what? The same rules apply to the fighter. The monk still can get greater grapple and the improved feats. If I really want to built a maneuver monk, then I'll give him an Int 13. I'd have to do the same for a fighter. Nothing crippling there either.
So, where is the problem?
Let me turn the argumentation around:
The fighter NEEDS Wis because of his bad Will save.
He NEEDS Dex or his AC will be sub standard, especially his touch AC. Additionally he needs it because of his bad reflex save.
He NEEDS Con because he doesn't have evasion and will therefore lose many hp to fireballs and the like.
He NEEDS Str to be able to hit and deal damage because that's all the fighter is able to anyway.
He NEEDS Int to be able to learn some skills AND to get Combat Expertise.
He NEEDS Cha to be able to do something else than killing things (i.e. talking to people).
See, the fighter is even more MAD! He needs ALL attributes, even Cha... ;-)
Comparing the fighter of Master Arminas and the monk I built in response I don't see the monk having ANY significant disadvantages from his attributes. He has less Dex (14 vs. 19), so what? His AC is the same. So the fighter has a better Initiative and a better bonus with missile weapons. I have no problem with that. The monk gets stunning fist and ki instead. He is not crippled in any way by that.
He has less Str (18 vs. 20), so what? It's only natural that the fighter hits better and does more damage. No problem and nothing crippling there either (remember: the fighter has +6 to hit but CANNOT do ANYTHING ELSE).
He has the same Con but a d8 instead of a d10. So what, that's 10 hp less at level 10. Nothing crippling, especially when throwing evasion into the balance which should save him 10 hp more often than not over the fighter.
He needs Int 13 if he wants to get Combat Expertise and many Greater maneuver feats. So, what? The same rules apply to the fighter. The monk still can get greater grapple and the improved feats. If I really want to built a maneuver monk, then I'll give him an Int 13. I'd have to do the same for a fighter. Nothing crippling there either.So, where is the problem?
Let me turn the argumentation around:
The fighter NEEDS Wis because of his bad Will save.
He NEEDS Dex or his AC will be sub standard, especially his touch AC. Additionally he needs it because of his bad reflex save.
He NEEDS Con because he doesn't have evasion and will therefore lose many hp to fireballs and the like.
He NEEDS Str to be able to hit and deal damage because that's all the fighter is able to anyway.
He NEEDS Int to be able to learn some skills AND to get Combat Expertise.
He NEEDS Cha to be able to do something else than killing things (i.e. talking to people).See, the fighter is even more MAD! He needs ALL attributes, even Cha... ;-)
The problem is, while I drew up a Fighter using two-weapons, that is a build that virtually NO ONE USES. If they want to two-weapon fight, they go ranger (gets the feats with no Dex prerequsites, and thus can pump up Strength to 22 or 24 by 10th level easily) or Rogue (who tends to use Weapon Finesse and relies on sneak attack for the damage boost).
The two-weapon Fighter I showed above is MAD, because he needs Strength to hit and deal damage and Dexterity to qualify for two-weapon fighting. Against a regular fighter? Add another +3 to the difference between the monk's attack bonus and the fighter. AT LEAST +3. Same with a raging barbarian, or a ranger attacking a favored enemy or a smiting Paladin.
On average, you are looking at around a NINE POINT DIFFERENCE in the attack bonus between these martial classes and the monk. Because of MAD and the high cost of enhancement and the delayed progression of getting that enhancement due to the WBL rules of a balanced approach.
For a class that is billed at having BAB equal to their class level with flurry.
No, the gap is wide and gets wider all the time. And the monk (unlike, the rogue and the bard) has little special abilities that actually serve to level the playing field.
MA
Well, I still don't think it's a problem that the fighter hits with +6 over the monk and does more damage. That's what the fighter does. The monk does more, so he should hit less well.
Like what more does he do that actually helps the party?
Comparing the fighter of Master Arminas and the monk I built in response I don't see the monk having ANY significant disadvantages from his attributes. He has less Dex (14 vs. 19), so what? His AC is the same. So the fighter has a better Initiative and a better bonus with missile weapons. I have no problem with that. The monk gets stunning fist and ki instead. He is not crippled in any way by that.
The problem, Liam, is that 'all those things the monk can do' basically come down to 'nothing for the rest of the party'.
Stunning fist isn't worth much at all to your monk. Say you and the fighter are fighting something he can hit 50% of the time...that means your monk hits it 20% of the time. Say it has a 50% chance of failing the save (which is pretty good, actually), that means that if you use a stunning fist attempt every round, you have a 10% chance of it working. That means in an average 3-round combat, stunning fist will actually have any effect 30% of the time. Not much, is it?
Then there are the ki abilities...you can get an extra attack (an extra 20% chance of a hit against the foe above, gosh), or a bonus to AC (which will keep you alive) but really is there much that will help the party there? Is there much that will actually have a significant effect on the monster hell-bent on killing your friends? Not really.
Oh, and your 14 dex means you have an appalling AC, 23 at 10th level is dire.
He has less Str (18 vs. 20), so what? It's only natural that the fighter hits better and does more damage. No problem and nothing crippling there either (remember: the fighter has +6 to hit but CANNOT do ANYTHING ELSE).
But it's a very important thing he IS doing. Ultimately all the combat classes are all about hitting the enemy and damaging it. Now a combat class that has problems doing this is basically not fit for purpose, and like it or not the monk is a combat class. He does not have the skills to be a scout, or the powers to be a real caster. That leaves combat.
He needs Int 13 if he wants to get Combat Expertise and many Greater maneuver feats. So, what? The same rules apply to the fighter. The monk still can get greater grapple and the improved feats. If I really want to built a maneuver monk, then I'll give him an Int 13. I'd have to do the same for a fighter. Nothing crippling there either.
The monk has three forms of attack:
hit things (which he sucks at compared to the other combat classes because of low chances to hit, poor damage output and problematic enhancement)Stunning fist, which has to hit and do damage (see above) to even have a chance of working
Maneuvers, because he gets the feats for free. Only he has to get higher intelligence and Combat Expertise to get the greater feats if he wants to excel at them, and even then they are of limited value at higher levels.
So, where is the problem?
I'll show you.
Let me turn the argumentation around:
The fighter NEEDS Wis because of his bad Will save.
Does he NEED it to function? Lot's of classes have a low Will save, and the difference between high and low is not huge. Iron Will and a headband of wisdom can boost the fighter up at higher levels if he needs it. Wisdom should never be a dump-stat, but it doesn't need to be 14+ either.
He NEEDS Dex or his AC will be sub standard, especially his touch AC. Additionally he needs it because of his bad reflex save.
Or he can just get on the plate armour. Most things the fighter has to face don't use touch attacks, and the max dex on full plate is +1. Heavy armour and shield get him better AC than the monk most of the time, so if he's not TWFing he really doesn't need dexterity. Dexterity is important for some fighters, but not for others. As long as it's 10+ then it's not an issue most of the time. He can still be a fighter.
He NEEDS Con because he doesn't have evasion and will therefore lose many hp to fireballs and the like.
He has higher hit dice and more feats. Sure Con is good, but NOT as essential to him as it is for the monk. So the fighter can afford a Con 2 points lowe than the monk. A Con of 14+ is all he needs.
He NEEDS Str to be able to hit and deal damage because that's all the fighter is able to anyway.
Sure, strength is the fighter's prime requisite - this is the stat he needs, right enough, as high as he can get it.
He NEEDS Int to be able to learn some skills AND to get Combat Expertise.
Wrong, maneuvers to the fighter are an option, as are skills. His job is hitting the enemy hard and dealing damage, everything else is gravy. Intelligence is an optional extra. Many fighters use it as a dump-stat in fact.
He NEEDS Cha to be able to do something else than killing things (i.e. talking to people).
He's a fighter, killing things is his job, anything else is optional extras. Charisma is an optional extra, and in many cases a dump-stat.
See, the fighter is even more MAD! He needs ALL attributes, even Cha... ;-)
Nope, he has ONE high stat he needs: strength. Passable Con is advisable, Dex if he wants to TWF, Wis if he is paranoid, but the latter two are NOT ESSENTIAL, and anything but strength is not important enough to push above 14.
OK guys, let's take Master Arminas' fighter and Liam's monk, and put them up against a CR-appropriate threat, and you can both describe how your character deals with it.
First up, a Fire giant.
Go guys!
Well, the fighter and the Fire Giant have the same to-hit bonus and same AC. The TW Fighter shown above gets four attacks to the Giants three, however, and the last attack by the FG is at +11. But each of the FGs attacks will do 3d6+15 (average 25.5). Ouch.
The build has two feat selections left (we counted him as having power-attack): so let's add Toughness and Iron Will to finish those off. Favored class bonus into hit points: that gives the fighter 99.5 hp on average, let's call it 100.
TW Fighter has an initiative of +4; the FG has one of -1. Odds are the Fighter is going to win initiative. If the fight starts at 60 feet or less, he is going to charge in (you can't take attacks of opportunity while flat-footed, right?) with power attack.
SURPRISE ROUND: +22 to hit (including +2 from charge) vs. AC 24. Misses only on a 1. 95% to hit x 22.5 average damage + (95% to hit x 20% chance of critical x 22.5), TW Fighter should do an average of 25.65 points of damage, rounded to 26. FG has 116 hp left.
ROUND 1: TWFFighter full-attacks. His routine is +18/+18/+13/+13 vs. AC 24. ((75% to hit x 22.5 average damage) x (2)) + ((50% to hit x 22.5 average damage) x (2)) + ((75% to hit x 20% critical chance x 22.5) x (2)) + ((50% to hit x 20% critical chance x 22.5) x (2)) equals . . . 56.25 average damage, rounds to 56. FG has 50 hp left.
FG attacks TW Fighter with greatsword for +21/+16/+11 (25.5 average damage). (90% to hit x 25.5 average damage) + (90% to hit x 10% critical chance x 25.5) + (65% to hit x 25.5 average damage) + (65% to hit x 10% critical chance x 25.5) + (40% to hit x 25.5 average damage) + (40% to hit x 25.5 average damage). FG does 54.6975 average damage, rounds to 55. TW Fighter has 45 hp left.
ROUND 2: As above. FG goes down before his attack routine, and is at -6 hit points and dying. TW Fighter stays at 45 hp.
Things change depending on the variables; whether or not the FG gets an attack of opportunity on the TW Fighter, or if the FG wins initiative and charges, or uses PA himself, or tries to stay at range and throw rocks.
But the TW Fighter should win.
MA
Nice. I think the monk will have to box clever to get the FG, but it's not impossible. Let's see what Liam produces.
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Keep in mind Wisdom to attack and Damage is already a class feature of the Sensei Archetype.
At 2nd level, a sensei may use his Wisdom bonus in lieu of his Strength or Dexterity on attack rolls and combat maneuver checks with unarmed strikes or monk weapons.
This ability replaces evasion and the bonus feat gained at 2nd level.
So the fears about level dipping for Wisdom shouldn't really apply. If a Cleric wanted to dip a Monk for Wisdom, he could, as the Sensei has no restrictions on when he can use Insightful Strike other than Unarmed Strike and Monk Weapons.
So if Wisdom to hit (and combat maneuvers) were an actual Monk class feature, but with the provision that it only works with unarmed strikes and monk weapons, and if he his unarmored or carrying a medium or heavy load, I think that it would work just fine.
Even though we'd like to see a built in Ki Enhancement feature, changing the Ki Strike feature so that it's treated as a scaling +1 Weapon every 4 levels for the purposes of overcoming DR would be the two simplest solutions I can think of.
You now have a higher to-hit bonus by reducing MAD, though not a high damage bonus, and without obsoleting the AoMF. By allowing Monks to bypass DR automatically, you've slightly increased their over all DPR, but not by anything drastic. A Monk simply won't be getting the same static bonuses to damage that other classes can get.
I've got a 450 mile road trip to make today, so I won't be back for awhile. Good news though, when I do get back, my Minis will be funded :P
And the Sensei Archetype makes you give up flurry of blows and fast movement.
Yes, I know that, but the point was for the fear of classes like Cleric or Druid level dipping Monk for Wisdom as a melee stat. They can already do that because of the Sensei. Sure, they don't get Wisdom to damage, but both classes are very good and giving themselves massive buffs if they need them.
Btw, Road Trip was a total bust. Was driving my sister to some school thing in another city. Turns out, it's not till tomorrow, but she didn't figure that out till we were half-way there.
Oops. I messed up on the example above. The FG should have 60 hp left at the end of round 1. And he has FOUR hp left at round 2 . . . which means the fighter dies. Sorry about that.
MA
Also, one minor error, you can't charge 60 ft and attack in a surprise round as you only get a Standard action. Instead, you make a partial charge moving up to your normal movement, and attack. So unless the fighter has Haste or Boots of Speed (as activating the Boots is a free action, thereby increasing your normal movement to 60 ft a round), he can only charge the Giant if he's 30 ft or less away.
Well...
Does he NEED it to function? Lot's of classes have a low Will save, and the difference between high and low is not huge. Iron Will and a headband of wisdom can boost the fighter up at higher levels if he needs it. Wisdom should never be a dump-stat, but it doesn't need to be 14+ either.
A fighter doesn't need Wisdom, but he does need at least a passable Will Save if you don't want the BBEG Wizard to insta-kill the party with a single Dominate Person spell. A headband of +6 Wis should already be a contender for the head slot. That leaves either taking Iron Will or a higher base Wisdom score. Iron will might be good, but it costs a feat and even though Fighters have lots of feats, lots of feat chains have a pretty hefty feat-tax too (I'm looking at you TWFers and Archers.) 2HF can afford it easily, but most other archetypes won't necessarily have the spare feat, at least not until higher levels, when it might be too late.
Or he can just get on the plate armour. Most things the fighter has to face don't use touch attacks, and the max dex on full plate is +1. Heavy armour and shield get him better AC than the monk most of the time, so if he's not TWFing he really doesn't need dexterity. Dexterity is important for some fighters, but not for others. As long as it's 10+ then it's not an issue most of the time. He can still be a fighter.
But then the Fighter gets Armor Training and everyone knows Mithril is better than Adamantine, so there's another +2 to that Max Dex. Suddenly a Max +1 turns into a Max +7. Sure, it'd probably be a little silly to assume you're going to max that cap out, but totally ignoring the potential is a waste of Fighter resources. Also, You've probably got Liam on the Touch AC issue, but he's got you on the bad Reflex save.
He has higher hit dice and more feats. Sure Con is good, but NOT as essential to him as it is for the monk. So the fighter can afford a Con 2 points lowe than the monk. A Con of 14+ is all he needs.
I would say Constitution is much more important to the Fighter actually. If there's one thing a Monk can do well, it's avoid taking unnecessary damage (All saves high, (Imp) Evasion, etc,) Not to mention the difference having a d10 instead of a d8 makes is marginal at best (1hp a level).
Sure, strength is the fighter's prime requisite - this is the stat he needs, right enough, as high as he can get it.
Yup. No arguing from anybody here, lol.
Wrong, maneuvers to the fighter are an option, as are skills. His job is hitting the enemy hard and dealing damage, everything else is gravy. Intelligence is an optional extra. Many fighters use it as a dump-stat in fact.
Maneuvers are only an option for both Monk and Fighter. Neither class is assumed to be using them all the time. However, they are a better option for a Fighter than they are for a (non-Maneuver Master) Monk any day of the week, because a Fighter is going to have a better success rate because of his higher bonuses.
The Monk that wants to play with Maneuvers is going to take the archetype, and the archetype allows the Greater versions to be taken as bonus feats. If either class needs a higher Int for maneuvers, it's Fighter.He's a fighter, killing things is his job, anything else is optional extras. Charisma is an optional extra, and in many cases a dump-stat.
Min-maxing is boring, but unfortunately it's the assumed build on forums such as these.
Anybody playing a character with a negative Charisma score should be playing it for RP reasons, not just because you get extra points for becoming a social cripple.But I realize that's just my opinion, so for a mechanical approach: Fighters make better use out of the "Display" feats than Monks do, due to having the extra feats to choose them. Ergo, a Fighter has more of a reason to raise his Cha than a Monk does.
Nope, he has ONE high stat he needs: strength. Passable Con is advisable, Dex if he wants to TWF, Wis if he is paranoid, but the latter two are NOT ESSENTIAL, and anything but strength is not important enough to push above 14.
Isn't spin fun? ;)
So, I don't feel like reading through this whole thread again.
The flurry of blows issue, is paizo still "working on it"?
Yup
Well...
A fighter doesn't need Wisdom, but he does need at least a passable Will Save if you don't want the BBEG Wizard to insta-kill the party with a single Dominate Person spell. A headband of +6 Wis should already be a contender for the head slot. That leaves either taking Iron Will or a higher base Wisdom score. Iron will might be good, but it costs a feat and even though Fighters have lots of feats, lots of feat chains have a pretty hefty feat-tax too (I'm looking at you TWFers and Archers.) 2HF can afford it easily, but most other archetypes won't necessarily have the spare feat, at least not until higher levels, when it might be too late.Does he NEED it to function? Lot's of classes have a low Will save, and the difference between high and low is not huge. Iron Will and a headband of wisdom can boost the fighter up at higher levels if he needs it. Wisdom should never be a dump-stat, but it doesn't need to be 14+ either.
I agree, not having a decent Wis score means that the fighter has a weakness, but this does not stop him being a fighter. It's a nice thing, but not an essential thing.
But then the Fighter gets Armor Training and everyone knows Mithril is better than Adamantine, so there's another +2 to that Max Dex. Suddenly a Max +1 turns into a Max +7. Sure, it'd probably be a little silly to assume you're going to max that cap out, but totally ignoring the potential is a waste of Fighter resources. Also, You've probably got Liam on...Or he can just get on the plate armour. Most things the fighter has to face don't use touch attacks, and the max dex on full plate is +1. Heavy armour and shield get him better AC than the monk most of the time, so if he's not TWFing he really doesn't need dexterity. Dexterity is important for some fighters, but not for others. As long as it's 10+ then it's not an issue most of the time. He can still be a fighter.
Reflex is considered the least important of the saves; there are many save-or-die or save-or-suck for Will and Fort, most reflex saves are save-or-hurt. Again, a good dexterity for a fighter is nice but he is not relying on it for his AC, it's just a good boost if he has it.
On the subject of Constitution, I have rarely encountered a fighter or barbarian with a low Con score, and they make the most of it. The point here though is that Strength, followed by Con, are the fighter's prime traits. everything else is nice but does not stop them having good AC, hit points, attacks, and damage, which are the fundamentals of combat.
I agree, the fighter is better at maneuvers. He is also better at dealing damage. Intelligence and maneuvers are nice, but again they don't become essential for either class, they are options. Charisma, again, is not something the fighter needs although he can make good use of it if he has it.
This is about needs, not about wants. A monk needs two of three attributes (strength, dex, wis) as good scores, and at least two more (Con plus the remaining one) at moderate-to-good scores, or you are toast in any combat. The fighter needs at most two good scores (strength and con) and the rest is gravy - nice if you can have it, but not essential.
So, I don't feel like reading through this whole thread again.
The flurry of blows issue, is paizo still "working on it"?
They've confirmed that they think there's a problem with the monk and that it needs some work from the design team. I haven't seen much detail as to what that will involve (I don't think they've yet identified the best way forward) although they have indicated it would be more than just a patch, a la introducing equipment to the game to boost monk effectiveness.
They've also said they wouldn't be starting on that until after gen con.
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This is about needs, not about wants. A monk needs two of three attributes (strength, dex, wis) as good scores, and at least two more (Con plus the remaining one) at moderate-to-good scores, or you are toast in any combat. The fighter needs at most two good scores (strength and con) and the rest is gravy - nice if you can have it, but not essential.
In that case, I would argue that a Monk only needs a good Wisdom and Dexterity. You can make a pretty amazing Scout with that, and if it's okay that a Fighter has the stats that allow him to do nothing but swing a big stick, then it's okay for a Monk to have the stats that allow him to do nothing but prepare the party for whatever is coming ahead.
*Great AC, Saves, and survival abilities for traps, etc. Why have a rogue disarm them when you can just trip them and ignore/evade their effects?
*Very fast movement which lets you get way ahead of the party when you need to without worrying about getting stuck seperated.
*Ki abilities to get out of tight spots (Dimension Door is pretty great as a utility ability.)
Now Str for the Monk is like Dex for the Fighter: Nice to have but not necessary. As for Con, I've already covered that: Stay out of negatives and you'll be fine. That "one other stat" that you mention is just as build-dependent as it would be for the Fighter, so it's not needed so much as it would be nice to have.
As for combat? Yeah, it's unfortunate that you're not keeping up with the fighter, but hey, you're great at providing flanking bonuses and harrassing enemy casters, so at least you're useful to the party! Other classes can worry about the actual "killing" part. (And remember, you're not the worst combat class! A Rogue who is denied Sneak Attack is VASTLY inferior to a Monk!)
You can even ignore the problems with Flurry of Blows by using an enchanted weapon instead of trying to bare-knuckle it. (Pair of Knuckle Axes anybody? ;) )
**********
Now, is the above situation ideal? No, I still agree Monks need some love. But it's an incredibly unfair comparison to make when you try and put a Monk who can "do it all" up against a Fighter who can only "swing his sword/shoot his bow."
The problem, Liam, is that 'all those things the monk can do' basically come down to 'nothing for the rest of the party'.
Well, I'm playing a monk and he actually is doing a lot of things, helping the party.
Stunning fist isn't worth much at all to your monk.
Strangely my monk has used stunning fist quite successfully several times now, in meaningful situations. Of course he might need to make use of flanking bonuses or party buffs vs. some foes to hit effectively, but maneuvering in a flanking position is quite easy with the monk's fast movement, for example. But that's part of a tactical combat. I don't buy into those much cited 3 round combats, btw. Those sound too much like "move into contact and then roll to hit until the (single) BBEG falls over". How boring.
Then there are the ki abilities...you can get an extra attack (an extra 20% chance of a hit against the foe above, gosh), or a bonus to AC (which will keep you alive) but really is there much that will help the party there?
Sure, even if the foe is not easily hit, that bonus to AC you cite so disparagingly allows the monk to hold off a foe so that his friends win time to react accordingly.
Oh, and your 14 dex means you have an appalling AC, 23 at 10th level is dire.
Well, together with Dodge he has the same AC as the fighter Master Arminas put up as a challenge. Touch AC is vastly better and with ki he has AC 28. Much better than aforementioned fighter.
So, you are saying that MA's fighter has an appalling AC? Has not one complaint of you and some others been that effective fighters can be built by novices easily whereas monks require system mastery? Your claim about the AC seems to contradict this strongly.He does not have the skills to be a scout, or the powers to be a real caster. That leaves combat.
The monk very much has the skills to be a scout. Sure, he might not do as much scouting as the rogue does but not all scouting has to deal with traps and locks. Furthermore to address your complaint what the monk can do to help the party: he can help the rogue scouting. Stealth will be on par with the rogue, the monk can climb as good as the rogue, with his fast movement he can move stealthily as fast as a rogue with the appropriate rogue talent and if they get detected he can enable the rogue to use his sneak attack by providing flanking. The fighter can do nothing of these.
With regards to the attributes a fighter needs: sometimes it seems like you didn't even bother to read my arguments.
e.g. Dex/AC
Or he can just get on the plate armour.
Wow, the Schroedinger fighter again. Note that I was comparing my monk build to Master Arminas fighter build who did NOT wear plate.
Most things the fighter has to face don't use touch attacks
Really? Those specters ignore the fighter? Funny that the fighter is able to choose his foes but the monk does not (e.g. the fire giant you put up as first combatant in another posting).
e.g. Con:
He NEEDS Con because he doesn't have evasion and will therefore lose many hp to fireballs and the like.
He has higher hit dice and more feats. Sure Con is good, but NOT as essential to him as it is for the monk.
The fighter's higher hit dice means +1 hp per level for a whopping +10 hp at level 10. The fighter has two more feats than the monk at level 10, so, yeah, he might take Toughness for another +10 hp. In my opinion evasion cancels this out easily.
e.g. Wis
The fighter NEEDS Wis because of his bad Will save.
Does he NEED it to function? Lot's of classes have a low Will save, and the difference between high and low is not huge. Iron Will and a headband of wisdom can boost the fighter up at higher levels if he needs it.
So, a difference of +6 (fighter Will +5 vs. monk Will +11, even with the fighter wearing a cloak of resistance) is not huge but the same difference on attack rolls is?
Of course the Schroedinger fighter can suddenly boost his will, but remember MA's fighter did NOT have that headband. He has some feats still open, so he might select Iron Will, but even then a difference of +4 would remain (and the monk might even select Iron Will as well, as he has one feat open, too).e.g. Cha
He's a fighter, killing things is his job, anything else is optional extras
How boring. Do your games only revolve around killing things? Or what does your fighter do in the meantime? Sitting around, preferably in the background, so that nobody notices him?
Nice. I think the monk will have to box clever to get the FG, but it's not impossible. Let's see what Liam produces.
Ok, let's see: the monk meets a FG.
First question: how did it happen that the monk did stumble upon a FG away from the party? Seems like he must have been doing some scouting. In that case the monk will just run away. Why should he fight the FG? FG often are not alone and assuming he was scouting the probability that the FG is not alone is even higher.
With his movement of 60 ft he is much faster than the FG. Spending ki to increase his AC to 28 he won't even be hit by a thrown rock.
Second question: Master Arminas assumed in his response that his fighter had surprise. Why should he? I'd expect it rather the other way around, because the FG probably has a better perception skill than the fighter and has low light vision. So, the fighter should not have surprise. He wins initiative in 70% of the cases (not much) and won't get a free round of attacks. Further the first attack round of the FG will hit the fighter more easily due to the penalty on AC because of the charge. As the fighter only survived because the FG did not get another round of attacks, that would mean that the fighter would be dead if not able to surprise the FG within charge range.
So to recap: the fighter only wins if (a) he manages to surprise the FG (difficult without stealth and perception) AND (b) wins initiative (70% chance). Furthermore being on a scouting tour the buddies of the FG would obviously be alarmed and the fighter would have real trouble to get away alive.
Third question: FG have low light vision. So I'd assume non-optimal lighting conditions reducing the fighters chance to hit. The monk won't have a penalty because of his goggles of night.
But taking the same assumptions as MA did and being stupid enough to attack the FG let's see how the monk fares:
The monk has a smaller chance than the fighter to win initiative but still will win it in about 62% (doing the Schroedinger trick like the fighter the monk might chose Improved Initiative as his remaining feat, raising the chance to 77%).
The monk has 70 hp (having used his favored class bonus for skills or maybe ki points).
SURPRISE ROUND: charging from as far as 120 ft away or doing a normal attack from 60 ft, the monk attacks with a trip. +17 vs. CMD 31, so with a chance of 35% the giant topples down.
(A) Assuming the FG was tripped (35% chance)
ROUND 1: Monk full attacks with two extra attacks from Medusa's wrath (FG is still flat-footed) and one extra attack for 1 ki point. He gets +4 due to the FG being prone: +19/+19/+19/+19/+19/+15/+15 hitting with 2d6+6 (avg. 13). 80%x5x1.05x13 + 60%x2x1.05x13 = 95 damage (the factor 1.05 accounts for critical hits). FG has 47 hp left. The first attack will be a stunning fist, which will work with a chance of 80% x 25% = 20%. So, with a small but not to be ignored chance of 20% the FG will be stunned for 1r, dropping his greatsword.
The FG stands up, provoking an attack of opportunity (+19, i.e. 80%x1.05x13 = 11 hp, leaving him at 38 hp) and makes a single power attack at +18 vs. AC 24, hitting the monk for 75%x1.1x34.5 = 28 hp. The monk has 42 hp left.
Alternatively the FG stays prone and full attacks with -4: +17/+12/+8 vs. AC 24, i.e. (70%+45%+20%)*1.1*25.5 = 38 hp. In that case the monk has 32 hp left but the FG is still prone.
ROUND 2:
(A.1) FG did stand up in round 1
monk withdraws spending 1 ki on AC taking 70%x1.1x25.5 = 20 hp from the AoO leaving him at 22 hp. He runs away and heals himself for 40 hp by spending 8 ki. He then sneaks upon the FG again and surprises him again (if it worked once, why not twice?).
Alternatively: monk full attacks, spending 1 ki on AC: +15/+15/+11/+11 for (60%x3+35%x2)x1.05x13 = 34 hp and the FG has 4 hp left. Because of statistical variations the FG might be below 0 now, instead, with a good chance.
(A.2) FG did not stand up in round 1
monk full attacks, spending 1 ki on an extra attack: +19/+19/+19/+15/+15 for (80%x3+55%x3)x1.05x13 = 48 hp and the FG is DEAD
The monk still stands with 32 hp.
(B) assuming the FG was NOT tripped (65% chance)
ROUND 1: Monk full attacks with two extra attacks from Medusa's wrath (FG is still flat-footed) and spends 1 ki point on AC. Up to the first two attacks are trip attempts (+17/+17), having a total chance of 58% to trip the FG, the rest are unarmed attacks (+15/+15/+11/+11)
(B.1) Assuming the FG was tripped (58% chance)
The monks attacks (now at +4) deal (80%x2+55%x2)x1.05x13 = 37 hp damage, leaving the FG at 107 hp.
The FG stands up, provoking an attack of opportunity (+19, i.e. 80%x1.05x13 = 11 hp, leaving him at 96 hp) and makes a single power attack at +18 vs. AC 28, hitting the monk for 55%x1.1x34.5 = 21 hp. The monk has 49 hp left. The monk can repeat this two times, the FG not => monk wins if tripping attempts in following rounds succeed.
Alternatively the FG stays prone and full attacks with -4: +17/+12/+8 vs. AC 28, i.e. (50%+25%+5%)*1.1*25.5 = 22 hp. In that case the monk has 48 hp left but the FG is still prone. This should work out in the monks favor, too.
(B.2) Assuming the FG was not tripped (42% chance)
The monks attacks deal (60%x2+35%x2)x1.05x13 = 26 hp damage, leaving the FG at 116 hp.
The FG full attacks for (70%+45%+20%)*1.1*25.5 = 38 hp, leaving the monk at 32 hp. Time for the monk to withdraw next round.
So, all in all the monk actually DOES have a better than 50% chance (35% chance first trip works, 65%*58%*58% chance second and third trip works) to win even if he takes up this fight (which he DOES NOT HAVE TO). If the fight does not go well, he CAN SIMPLY GET AWAY.
Resumée: both fighter and monk only have a chance IF surprise is assumed (which is unlikely in the case of the fighter). In that (slim) case the fighter has good chances to win, while the monk has fair chances to win and can get away if he don't.
=> fighter often dies (if he did not win surprise or if lighting conditions are bad), monk always lives. Methinks the monk wins that challenge over the fighter.
Note: assuming the confrontation was part of a fight of the whole party against a group of fire giants then the monk will probably have been buffed together with the rest, improving his chances considerably. In that case he might also fight defensively just to keep his FG busy and buy time.
This is about needs, not about wants. [...]In that case, I would argue that a Monk only needs a good Wisdom and Dexterity. You can make a pretty amazing Scout with that, and if it's okay that a Fighter has the stats that allow him to do nothing but swing a big stick, then it's okay for a Monk to have the stats that allow him to do nothing but prepare the party for whatever is coming ahead.
[...great arguments deleted...]
Now, is the above situation ideal? No, I still agree Monks need some love. But it's an incredibly unfair comparison to make when you try and put a Monk who can "do it all" up against a Fighter who can only "swing his sword/shoot his bow.
I totally agree with Neo.
This is about needs, not about wants. A monk needs two of three attributes (strength, dex, wis) as good scores, and at least two more (Con plus the remaining one) at moderate-to-good scores, or you are toast in any combat. The fighter needs at most two good scores (strength and con) and the rest is gravy - nice if you can have it, but not essential.In that case, I would argue that a Monk only needs a good Wisdom and Dexterity. You can make a pretty amazing Scout with that, and if it's okay that a Fighter has the stats that allow him to do nothing but swing a big stick, then it's okay for a Monk to have the stats that allow him to do nothing but prepare the party for whatever is coming ahead.
Indeed in a four-man party I do try and build my monks for the couting role, but it doesn't work with just Dex and Wis, you need Intelligence as well, because to be a good scout you need skills.
Acrobatics, Climb (to get places), Disable Device (even if you evade traps, you need to open doors quietly), Linguistics (need to understand what people say), Perception (obvious), Stealth (also obvious) and Swim (to get places). In addition, Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Knowledges, Linguistics, Sense Motive and Slight-of-Hand are all also very useful to a scout.Only the monk does not have enough skill-points to come anywhere close to that lot without boosting intelligence. Even then, you get a second-rate scout compared to a rogue or ranger, and they have combat abilities that your lack of strength and con just left you lacking.
*Great AC, Saves, and survival abilities for traps, etc. Why have a rogue disarm them when you can just trip them and ignore/evade their effects?
Because triggering traps sets off alarms and you want to sneak up on the enemy, and besides how will you get through that locked door? You don't have the strength to break it down, remember.
*Very fast movement which lets you get way ahead of the party when you need to without worrying about getting stuck seperated.
But you DO get separated, which means you need to be able to survive on your own.
*Ki abilities to get out of tight spots (Dimension Door is pretty great as a utility ability.)
I can't fault you here, the monk can run away better than anyone except a high level caster.
Now Str for the Monk is like Dex for the Fighter: Nice to have but not necessary.
I make a speciality of Dex-based monks, and while strength is not primary, you need some strength or else you cannot inflict any damage. While inflicting damage is not the monk's forte, to get stunning fist to work you need to hit and do damage.
As for Con, I've already covered that: Stay out of negatives and you'll be fine. That "one other stat" that you mention is just as build-dependent as it would be for the Fighter, so it's not needed so much as it would be nice to have.
The problem with this concept is that as you get to higher and higher levels, AC protects you proportionally less and less. The monsters get attack bonuses that always get a hit in, and then you need the hit points you don't have. The fighter can buff his AC (wear more armour) and his hit points easily enough, but the monk finds it harder but more necessary.
As for combat? Yeah, it's unfortunate that you're not keeping up with the fighter, but hey, you're great at providing flanking bonuses and harrassing enemy casters, so at least you're useful to the party! Other classes can worry about the actual "killing" part. (And remember, you're not the worst combat class! A Rogue who is denied Sneak Attack is VASTLY inferior to a Monk!)
...and with sneak attack the rogue is actually superior to the monk in the flanking position, and ANYONE can harass enemy casters if they manage to get next to them - but the best way to neutralise an enemy caster is with another caster.
I don't WANT the monk to keep up with the fighter, this keeps getting reiterated again and again: what the monk lovers want are options that make them effective in combat, that enable them to do what the monk is supposed to do. Giving the monk natural enhancement and a boost to hit that does not involve a feat-tax would be great, because then that stunning fist might land now and again and have an effect, and those maneuvers might have a hope of working.
You can even ignore the problems with Flurry of Blows by using an enchanted weapon instead of trying to bare-knuckle it. (Pair of Knuckle Axes anybody? ;) )
Which underlines that the unarmed combat specialist is actually better off armed...but has only a really bad selection of weapons to choose from.
Now, is the above situation ideal? No, I still agree Monks need some love. But it's an incredibly unfair comparison to make when you try and put a Monk who can "do it all" up against a Fighter who can only "swing his sword/shoot his bow."
We can compare him to the fallen paladin, and he still comes up second. If you want a scout, a rogue is better. In fact there isn't anything the monk really brings to the party that helps the party that another class cannot do better.
The problem, Liam, is that 'all those things the monk can do' basically come down to 'nothing for the rest of the party'.Well, I'm playing a monk and he actually is doing a lot of things, helping the party.
Strangely my monk has used stunning fist quite successfully several times now, in meaningful situations.
Stunning fist isn't worth much at all to your monk.
So has mine, but it fails more often than it works and it working is a fluke. I got a monk to 8th level in a game recently before I made a successful stunning fist attempt. This happened because I was either missing, or targets made their saves.
Of course he might need to make use of flanking bonuses or party buffs vs. some foes to hit effectively, but maneuvering in a flanking position is quite easy with the monk's fast movement, for example.
And flanking is a tactic I used a lot, but it didn't help much. Party buffs are like in-combat healing: if you need to rely on them, things are already wrong.
But that's part of a tactical combat. I don't buy into those much cited 3 round combats, btw. Those sound too much like "move into contact and then roll to hit until the (single) BBEG falls over". How boring.
No, combats with my monk usually prove much more interesting. She's renowned for 'the break-dance leg-sweep' where she has multiple opponents and performs a flurry-of-trips. It often works against humanoids, but that's only around a third of the time. It doesn't keep them down, but it means she can keep them tied down while the party work on other foes.
However, this highlights the problems when she isn't facing humanoids she can trip, disarm or grapple, because her odds to hit are poor and her damage is weak, and as I stated stunning fist working is a rarity.
Then there are the ki abilities...you can get an extra attack (an extra 20% chance of a hit against the foe above, gosh), or a bonus to AC (which will keep you alive) but really is there much that will help the party there?Sure, even if the foe is not easily hit, that bonus to AC you cite so disparagingly allows the monk to hold off a foe so that his friends win time to react accordingly.
Then you must be fighting morons, because the foes I face use the principal that if they cannot hit you and you can't hurt them just ignore you and beat up your mates.
Oh, and your 14 dex means you have an appalling AC, 23 at 10th level is dire.Well, together with Dodge he has the same AC as the fighter Master Arminas put up as a challenge. Touch AC is vastly better and with ki he has AC 28. Much better than aforementioned fighter.
Actually he does have a cruddy AC, yes, but he does have better hit points. My monk at level 10 has an AC of 28 before racking in ki or Combat Expertise. The party paladin has AC27 and the magus with his shield spell likewise 27.
So, you are saying that MA's fighter has an appalling AC? Has not one complaint of you and some others been that effective fighters can be built by novices easily whereas monks require system mastery? Your claim about the AC seems to contradict this strongly.
I've seen better, put it that way - but then the TWF fighter is a poor option for a fighter to begin with. Most fighters will use sword & board rather than two short-swords, or else go with e two-hander.
He does not have the skills to be a scout, or the powers to be a real caster. That leaves combat.The monk very much has the skills to be a scout. Sure, he might not do as much scouting as the rogue does but not all scouting has to deal with traps and locks. Furthermore to address your complaint what the monk can do to help the party: he can help the rogue scouting. Stealth will be on par with the rogue, the monk can climb as good as the rogue, with his fast movement he can move stealthily as fast as a rogue with the appropriate rogue talent and if they get detected he can enable the rogue to use his sneak attack by providing flanking. The fighter can do nothing of these.
Yes, but there's a lot the monk cannot do in scouting - in short, he is a second-rate scout, and your own statement above bears this out.
With regards to the attributes a fighter needs: sometimes it seems like you didn't even bother to read my arguments.
That's because you are making very weak arguments.
e.g. Dex/AC
Or he can just get on the plate armour.Wow, the Schroedinger fighter again. Note that I was comparing my monk build to Master Arminas fighter build who did NOT wear plate.
But the fighter CAN put on the plate armour a lot easier than the monk can improve his AC, is my point. The fighter has the option.
Most things the fighter has to face don't use touch attacksReally? Those specters ignore the fighter? Funny that the fighter is able to choose his foes but the monk does not (e.g. the fire giant you put up as first combatant in another posting).
OK, let's look at the list of CR10 monsters:
Adlet, Aluum[PA], Angel (Movanic Deva), Archon (Shield), Bebilith, Bogeyman, Colour Out of Space[PA], Couatl, Cryohydra (9-headed), Daemon (Piscodaemon), Demon (Kalavakus), Demon (Xenarth (Ichor Shark)[PA]), Devil (Contract), Dinosaur (Brachiosaurus), Div (Ghawwas), Dragon (Chromatic (Black, Young Adult), Chromatic (Blue, Juvenile), Chromatic (Red, Young), Chromatic (White, Adult), Imperial (Forest, Young), Imperial (Sky, Juvenile), Metallic (Brass, Young Adult), Metallic (Bronze, Juvenile), Metallic (Silver, Young), Primal (Brine, Young Adult), Primal (Cloud, Juvenile), Primal (Crystal, Adult), Primal (Umbral, Young)), Flytrap (Giant), Garipan[PA], Gholdako[PA], Giant (Fire, Jungle, Taiga), Golem (Clay), Gug, Hippopotamus (Behemoth), Kami (Zuishin), Naga (Guardian), Protean (Imentesh), Malik (Noble Efreet), Pyrohydra (9-headed), Reaper (Minor)[PA], Mobogo, Nereid, Nue, Octopus (Giant Lake)[PA], Pale Stranger, Peluda[PA], Qlippoth (Nyogoth), Rakshasa, Siyokoy, Snake (Giant Anaconda), Tophet, Vrykolakas[PA], Water Orm, Whale.Out of these 57, the following routinely use touch attacks: Colour Out of Space[PA], Naga (Guardian), Reaper (Minor) (sometimes), Nereid, Pale Stranger. That's five out of 57, so the fact I picked one that was not employing a touch attack is hardly selective on my part. Very few creatures DO employ touch attacks, so the monk's touch AC is not that relevant.
e.g. Con:
The fighter's higher hit dice means +1 hp per level for a whopping +10 hp at level 10. The fighter has two more feats than the monk at level 10, so, yeah, he might take Toughness for another +10 hp. In my opinion evasion cancels this out easily.He NEEDS Con because he doesn't have evasion and will therefore lose many hp to fireballs and the like.
He has higher hit dice and more feats. Sure Con is good, but NOT as essential to him as it is for the monk.
Again, how many reflex saves against area attacks do you need to make? Looking at the list of creatures above, less than half of them use area attacks, and most of them are dragons. Almost all of them use attacks that reduce hit points, though.
e.g. Wis
So, a difference of +6 (fighter Will +5 vs. monk Will +11, even with the fighter wearing a cloak of resistance) is not huge but the same difference on attack rolls is?The fighter NEEDS Wis because of his bad Will save.
Does he NEED it to function? Lot's of classes have a low Will save, and the difference between high and low is not huge. Iron Will and a headband of wisdom can boost the fighter up at higher levels if he needs it.
Once again, how often does that come up? Maybe one encounter in four will test the Will save, but EVERY SINGLE encounter will require multiple attack rolls. That's why +6 on a Will save is not so huge as +6 on an attack roll.
Of course the Schroedinger fighter can suddenly boost his will, but remember MA's fighter did NOT have that headband. He has some feats still open, so he might select Iron Will, but even then a difference of +4 would remain (and the monk might even select Iron Will as well, as he has one feat open, too).
I'm not invoking the Schroedinger fighter, though, you are. The point here is that you are placing equal value on abilities that are rarely exercised against abilities that are regularly used, and they just don't have it.
e.g. Cha
He's a fighter, killing things is his job, anything else is optional extrasHow boring. Do your games only revolve around killing things? Or what does your fighter do in the meantime? Sitting around, preferably in the background, so that nobody notices him?
No, my games are neither boring nor do they revolve around killing things - although ultimately, killing things is what has to happen in a a game, so you need someone who is good at it. This does not detract from the fact that the fighter does not need these options in allocation of stats to function and be a fighter, however. The fact that the fighter has less major stats to invest in means he CAN set a few aside for characterisation without particularly sacrificing his effectiveness, but the monk with his greater demand on stats cannot.
I can build an effective, smart, dex-based fighter. He's not optimal, but he's good at what he does and fun to play. I can make a sword-and-board tank too, a suave swashbuckler, or a simpleton with one trick and a big weapon. I can do all that with one class, the fighter, and all of them will be effective in their role within the party and I will have fun playing them. One of the problems I have with the monk that if I want to play an effective one - as a warrior or as a scout - I have almost no leeway in my choices of feats, skills and stats, and I hate that.
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Yes, I know that, but the point was for the fear of classes like Cleric or Druid level dipping Monk for Wisdom as a melee stat. They can already do that because of the Sensei. Sure, they don't get Wisdom to damage, but both classes are very good and giving themselves massive buffs if they need them.
Btw, Road Trip was a total bust. Was driving my sister to some school thing in another city. Turns out, it's not till tomorrow, but she didn't figure that out till we were half-way there.
But they can't. To dip in Sensai you need to take two levels of monk and you don't get the core feature (FoB) and it doesn't take damage from wisdom, only attack (which is what I proposed above, as that isn't that big a bump.)
So if that were added you are a cleric you can take a non-spellcasting class to gain your wisdom added to AC and the ability to have wisdom effect your attack bonus with unarmed or monk weapons. Not that awesome considering you lose a level of spellcasting, domain, channel, etc...
Now you would need two levels, and you wouldn't get FOB.
It seems like the Devs are terrified that if a monk can hit like a rogue unarmed it would break the game, and I have no idea why.
I see walls of text of nothing but conjecture and theorycrafting, this is getting to be too much even for a supporter of the monk.
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I see walls of text of nothing but conjecture and theorycrafting, this is getting to be too much even for a supporter of the monk.
Which is why I am asking for a build, preferably behind spoiler tags.
My hypothesis is the monk can hit on expected level relative to other 3/4 BaB classes without dumping something else important to the class. In other words you can get an 18 strength, but what are you dumping in trade?
Prove me wrong.
Liam, did you post the build somewhere?
Just over here
I see walls of text of nothing but conjecture and theorycrafting, this is getting to be too much even for a supporter of the monk.
Sorry about that, but convoluted fallacies need comprehensive debunking.
My hypothesis is the monk can hit on expected level relative to other 3/4 BaB classes without dumping something else important to the class. In other words you can get an 18 strength, but what are you dumping in trade?
The monk can get the basics there, but not the further enhancement.
These are two characters (mine and a friend's) from an active ongoing game.
Male Half-Orc Magus (Bladebound) 10
NN Medium Humanoid (orc)
Init +2; Senses Darkvision; Perception +15
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Defense
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AC 23, touch 15, flat-footed 20 (+6 armor, +2 Dex, +2 natural, +2 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 97 (10d8+30)
Fort +12, Ref +7, Will +10
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee Black Blade +17/+12 (1d6+9/18-20/x2) and
. . Morningstar +13/+8 (1d8+6/x2) and
. . Scimitar +13/+8 (1d6+6/18-20/x2)
Ranged Masterwork Longbow, Composite (Str +5) +10/+5 (1d8+5/x3)
Special Attacks Arcane Edge 5, Spellstrike
Magus (Bladebound) Spells Prepared (CL 10, 13 melee touch, 9 ranged touch):
4 (2/day) Dimension Door, Dragon's Breath (DC 19)
3 (4/day) Haste (DC 18), Fireball (DC 18), Lightning Bolt (DC 18), Vampiric Touch
2 (5/day) Glitterdust, Mirror Image, Web (DC 17), Defensive Shock, Fire Breath (DC 17)
1 (7/day) Stone Fist, Magic Missile, Ray of Enfeeblement (DC 16), Burning Hands (DC 16), Flare Burst (DC 16), Shield, Vanish
0 (at will) Dancing Lights, Prestidigitation (DC 15), Detect Magic, Disrupt Undead, Disrupt Undead
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Statistics
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Str 18/22, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 18/20, Wis 12, Cha 10
Base Atk +7; CMB +13; CMD 28
Feats Combat Casting, Craft Wondrous Item, Dodge, Extra Arcana, Power Attack -2/+4, Weapon Focus (Rapier)
Traits Focused Mind, Framed (Dropout)
Skills Acrobatics +6, Climb +12, Escape Artist +1, Fly +6, Heal +6, Intimidate +15, Knowledge (arcana) +14, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +12, Knowledge (planes) +12, Perception +15, Ride +5, Sense Motive +4, Spellcraft +20, Stealth +4, Survival +3, Swim +9, Use Magic Device +7
Languages Common, Draconic, Giant, Necril, Orc, Shoanti, Thassilonian
SQ +3 to Appraise checks, Arcane Pool (+3) (8/day), Black Blade, Black Blade: Arcane Pool (3/day), Black Blade: Energy Attunement, Black Blade: Strike +3, Black Blade: Telepathy, Black Blade: Teleport Blade, Black Blade: Unbreakable, Deliver Touch Spells Through Familiar, Empathic Link with Familiar, Improved Spell Combat, Knowledge Pool, Orc Ferocity (1/day), Share Spells with Familiar, Speak with Animals, Speak With Familiar, Spell Recall, Wand Wielder
Combat Gear +2 Chain Shirt, Arrows (20), Masterwork Longbow, Composite (Str +5), Morningstar, Scimitar; Other Gear Amulet of Natural Armor +2, Backpack (3 @ 13 lbs), Belt of Giant Strength, +4, Cloak of Resistance, +2, Grappling hook, Headband of Vast Intelligence, +2 (Spellcraft), Healer's kit (10 uses), Potion of Cure Light Wounds (8), Potion of Cure Moderate Wounds (2), Potion of Cure Serious Wounds, Potion of Remove Disease, Ring of Protection, +2, Rope, silk (50 ft.), Wand of Cat's Grace, Wand of Magic Missile (CL 3), Waterskin
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Special Abilities
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+3 to Appraise checks You gain the Alertness feat while your familiar is within arm's reach.
Arcane Edge 5 (Su) 1 Arcane Pool: Add 5 Bleed damage to an attack.
Arcane Pool (+3) (8/day) (Su) Infuse own power into a held weapon, granting enhancement bonus or selected item powers.
Black Blade (Ex) You gain an intelligent bonded weapon whose power grows with your own.
Black Blade: Arcane Pool (3/day) (Su) The Black Blade has an Arcane Pool used to fuel its own abilities.
Black Blade: Energy Attunement (Su) Replace weapon dam with fire/cold/elec for 1 point, or sonic/force for 2 points.
Black Blade: Strike +3 (Sp) The Black Blade can grant itself a damage bonus for 1 min.
Black Blade: Telepathy (Su) The magus can telepathically communicate with his black blade if it is worn or held.
Black Blade: Teleport Blade (Sp) Spend 1 point from own or blades pool to teleport it into hand.
Black Blade: Unbreakable (Ex) The Black Blade is immune to the broken condition while the arcane pool is not empty.
Combat Casting +4 to Concentration checks to cast while on the defensive.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Deliver Touch Spells Through Familiar (Su) Your familiar can deliver touch spells for you.
Empathic Link with Familiar (Su) You have an empathic link with your Arcane Familiar.
Focused Mind +2 to Concentration checks
Improved Spell Combat (Ex) Use a weapon with one hand at -2 and cast a spell with the other.
Knowledge Pool (Su) Spend Arcane Pool points to prepare a magus spell that is not in your spellbook for 1 day.
Orc Ferocity (1/day) 1/day, when brought below 0 HP but not killed, you can fight on for 1 more round as if disabled. The next round, unless brought to at least 0 HP, you immediately fall unconscious and begin dying.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Share Spells with Familiar The wizard may cast a spell with a target of "You" on his familiar (as a touch spell) instead of on himself. A wizard may cast spells on his familiar even if the spells do not normally affect creatures of the familiar's type (magical beast).
Speak with Animals (Ex) Your familiar can communicate with similar animals to itself.
Speak With Familiar (Ex) You can communicate verbally with your familiar.
Spell Recall (Su) Spend your Arcane Pool to recall spells you have already cast.
Spellstrike (Su) Deliver touch spells as part of a melee attack.
Wand Wielder (Su) The magus can activate a wand or staff in place of casting a spell when using spell combat.
Female Human (Chelaxian) Monk 10
LG Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +6; Senses Perception +17
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Defense
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AC 28, touch 25, flat-footed 21 (+2 armor, +6 Dex, +1 natural, +2 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 91 (10d8+20)
Fort +10, Ref +15, Will +12
Defensive Abilities Evasion, Improved Evasion; Immune disease
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Offense
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Speed 60 ft.
Melee +1 Ghost Touch Kama +14/+9 (1d6+3/x2) and
. . Cold Iron Kama +13/+8 (1d6+2/x2) and
. . Sai +13/+8 (1d4+2/x2) and
. . Silver Kama +13/+8 (1d6+1/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +13/+8 (1d10+2/x2)
Ranged Masterwork Crossbow, Light +14/+9 (1d8/19-20/x2) and
. . Shuriken +13/+8 (1d2+2/x2) and
. . Sling +13/+8 (1d4+2/x2)
Special Attacks Flurry of Blows +8/+8/+3/+3, Ki Strike, Lawful, Ki Strike, Magic
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Statistics
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Str 15, Dex 21/23, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 16/18, Cha 14
Base Atk +7; CMB +16 (+18 Disarming, +18 Grappling, +18 Tripping); CMD 34 (36 vs. Disarm, 36 vs. Grapple, 40 vs. Trip)
Feats Agile Maneuvers, Combat Expertise +/-2, Combat Reflexes (7 AoO/round), Dodge, Improved Disarm, Improved Grapple, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Monk Weapon Proficiencies, Snake Sidewind, Snake Style, Stunning Fist (10/day) (DC 19), Weapon Finesse
Traits Unhappy Childhood (Tortured), Vagabond Child (urban) (Disable Device)
Skills Acrobatics +19, Climb +12, Disable Device +22, Escape Artist +11, Heal +7, Intimidate +6, Knowledge (history) +6, Knowledge (local) +4, Knowledge (nature) +3, Knowledge (nobility) +3, Knowledge (religion) +9, Linguistics +4, Perception +17, Perform (dance) +7, Profession (sailor) +8, Ride +10, Sense Motive +19, Sleight of Hand +7, Stealth +19, Survival +5, Swim +7
Languages Celestial, Common, Shoanti, Varisian, Vudrani
SQ AC Bonus +6, Fast Movement (+30'), High Jump (+10/+30 with Ki point), Ki Defense, Ki Pool, Maneuver Training, Purity of Body, Slow Fall 50', Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue, Sicken), Unarmed Strike (1d10), Vow of Truth (+2 Ki), Wholeness of Body (10 HP/use)
Combat Gear +1 Ghost Touch Kama, Bolts, Crossbow (28), Bullets, Sling (10), Cold Iron Kama, Masterwork Crossbow, Light, Sai, Shuriken (15), Silver Kama, Sling; Other Gear Alchemist's Fire Flask, Amulet of Natural Armor +1, Backpack (16 @ 30.62 lbs), Belt of Incredible Dexterity, +2, Bracers of Armor, +2, Cloak of Resistance, +1, Crowbar, Flint and steel, Grappling hook, Headband of Inspired Wisdom, +2, Healer's kit (10 uses), Holy Water Flask (2), Potion of Cure Moderate Wounds (2), Potion of Cure Serious Wounds (2), Potion of Invisibility, Powder, Ring of Protection, +2, Rope, silk (50 ft.), Soap (per lb), Sunrod (3), Thieves' tools, masterwork, Torch, Waterskin
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Special Abilities
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AC Bonus +6 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
Agile Maneuvers Use DEX instead of STR for CMB
Combat Expertise +/-2 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.
Combat Reflexes (7 AoO/round) You may make up to 7 attacks of opportunity per round, and may make them while flat-footed.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Movement (+30') The Monk adds 10 or more feet to his base speed.
Flurry of Blows +8/+8/+3/+3 (Ex) Make Flurry of Blows attack as a full action.
High Jump (+10/+30 with Ki point) (Ex) +10 to Acrobatics checks made to jump.
Immunity to Disease You are immune to diseases.
Improved Disarm Disarm at +2, without an attack of opportunity.
Improved Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead. If you fail you take half damage.
Improved Grapple You grapple at +2, with no attacks of opportunity allowed.
Improved Trip You Trip at +2 and don't cause an attack of opportunity.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Ki Defense (Su) A monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round.
Ki Pool (Su) You have a ki pool equal to 1/2 your monk level + your Wisdom modifier.
Ki Strike, Lawful (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as lawful to overcome DR.
Ki Strike, Magic (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as magic to overcome DR.
Maneuver Training (Ex) CMB = other BABs + Monk level
Purity of Body (Ex) At 5th level, a monk gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.
Slow Fall 50' (Ex) Treat a fall as shorter than normal if within arm's reach of a wall.
Snake Sidewind Gain a bonus to avoid being knocked prone, and use Sense Motive check to confirm critical hits
Snake Style Gain +2 on Sense Motive checks, and deal piercing damage with unarmed attacks
Stunning Fist (10/day) (DC 19) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue, Sicken) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This conditio
Unarmed Strike (1d10) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
Vow of Truth (+2 Ki) The monk is not allowed to deliberately speak any lies, including bluffing, stating half-truths with the intent to deceive, exaggerating, telling white lies, and so on. This applies to all forms of communication. If presented with circumstances where
Wholeness of Body (10 HP/use) (Su) Self-heal monk level in damage for 2 Ki points.
Feriah's got great stats (all were rolled) but suffers from the 'monk problem' in hitting. On single attacks, Karesh is +4 ahead of her, in multiple attacks he is only +1 ahead, but has his spell combat to make up for the lower number of attacks he can make. Feriah can use her kama to make up a little of the difference, but is then hitting with 1d6+3 vs 1d6+9 - each hit Karesh scores is worth two of Feriah's.
So, I don't feel like reading through this whole thread again.
The flurry of blows issue, is paizo still "working on it"?
If by "working on it" you mean "not working on it", then yes.
I figured as much, hence the cynical quoting of the phrase "working on it."
*Sigh*
I'll just have to DMPC a monk in games I run or hold out for the rare special DM who knows how badly they suck and have tons of houserules to fix them, and just bide my time till then adding martial arts flavor to functional classes. Guess I'll check back in a month...
Dabbler, I'm tired of arguments demanding that the monk has to fight as good as a fighter specialized on dealing damage and scout as good as a rogue specialized on ALL aspects that might come up in scouting, that the rogue fights better when scouting alone instead of together with a monk (sneak attack) etc. etc. ad nauseatum and that therefore the monk is broken.
Just some points, then I'm out (I'm beginning to understand SKR...):
- touch attacks come up with spellcasters (e.g. rays or vampiric touch) quite often, just like area attacks.
- losing a single Will save often has more severe consequences than getting hit a bit more often, that's why I did count them to be equally important
- one of the oft repeated arguments that the core monk is broken is that it's difficult to build an effective core monk while it is easy to build an effective fighter. The concrete comparison did not sustain this as the fighter constantly had to be changed (adding headbands or feats or other equipment).
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Dabbler, I'm tired of arguments demanding that the monk has to fight as good as a fighter specialized on dealing damage and scout as good as a rogue specialized on ALL aspects that might come up in scouting, that the rogue fights better when scouting alone instead of together with a monk (sneak attack) etc. etc. ad nauseatum and that therefore the monk is broken.
Put your strawman back in the barn, no one is interested in fighting it.
Pick a level, post a build, you set the criteria and we will show you the problem.
The only ways a monk can enhance unarmed strike cost significantly more than they can afford following WBL and be competitive with other classes.
At the same time, the monk can't focus on a specific ability (str or dex) to get attack bonus up to stay competitive.
The monk is consistently behind the Rogue normally, and the Cleric, Magus, Inquisitor, etc...after self buffs for attack bonus.
This isn't about the Full BaB classes, it is about the other 3/4 BaB classes.
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10th level rogue starts with 18 Dex (not a 20, just an 18)
+2 with the bump from 4th and 8th we are at 20.
Add a +4 dex item (You have 62k, this will only be 16k, pushing the the 1/4th rule of thumb, but close)
So we are at +24, or +7. Base attack at 10 is +7 so we are at +14
Now add an weapon. Actually two because we are competing with unarmed, right.
So lets get two +2 weapons. That will be 8,000 a piece for 16,000 gold.
We've spent 32K total now, a little more than half, and we have a +16 to attack (+14 two weapon, assuming we took the feats)
Show me a monk with a 24 str or Dex at 10th level that is viable. Exactly, so you are behind there.
+ 2 AoMF costs 20k, so by rule of thumb you shouldn't have any one item worth more than 1/4 of your WBL, you can't even get one.
See the problem now?
Edit: And did I mention that the AoMF also takes up your neck slot?
Dabbler, I'm tired of arguments demanding that the monk has to fight as good as a fighter specialized on dealing damage and scout as good as a rogue specialized on ALL aspects that might come up in scouting, that the rogue fights better when scouting alone instead of together with a monk (sneak attack) etc. etc. ad nauseatum and that therefore the monk is broken.
If you actually bothered to read any of my posts, you would have seen that this is not what I am advocating. I am, however, advocating that the monk be able to fulfil a viable role within the party without optimising them to the max just to be passable at something another class can easily do better. I do not deny that monks have their strengths, but their comparative weaknesses outweigh them when push comes to shove.
The monk is supposed to:
Role: Monks excel at overcoming even the most daunting perils, striking where it’s least expected, and taking advantage of enemy vulnerabilities. Fleet of foot and skilled in combat, monks can navigate any battlefield with ease, aiding allies wherever they are needed most.
Problem is the monk has no means of taking advantage of enemy vulnerabilities, and no ability to aid their allies very much other than to provide a flanking buddy.
What the monk needs (other than resolving the mess of flurry of blows) is to get some kind of boost to hit that enables them to forsake strength without paying a feat-tax, and overcoming DR so they don't have to deal massive damage just to get the foe to make a save vs stunning fist.
That's what I'm advocating, pure and simple.
Just some points, then I'm out (I'm beginning to understand SKR...):
Yes, it can be tough when people consistently refute your arguments with facts.
- touch attacks come up with spellcasters (e.g. rays or vampiric touch) quite often, just like area attacks.
Yes, but how often do they occur in the adventuring day? If every encounter has a ray-shooting caster on the side of the enemy then sure, the monk shines. But they very often don't, in fact even when there is a caster present he may not employ that kind of spell.
- losing a single Will save often has more severe consequences than getting hit a bit more often, that's why I did count them to be equally important
This is very true, but unfortunately as this doesn't happen often - if it's one encounter in four, then for three encounters it doesn't matter.
- one of the oft repeated arguments that the core monk is broken is that it's difficult to build an effective core monk while it is easy to build an effective fighter. The concrete comparison did not sustain this as the fighter constantly had to be changed (adding headbands or feats or other equipment).
Actually whatever else, the fighter shown could engage the foe and do damage. That's what a fighter's role is, pure and simple. It's not the monk's role, but unfortunately the monk has to hit things and damage them in order to fulfil his role, and that is where the monk falls down - he's way behind on accuracy and getting through DR (I don't give a hoot about damage, quite frankly, it's nice but not the big issue).
The monk is defensively very strong, but that doesn't help out the rest of the party much.
I will say one thing about the CR 10 Fire Giant. That is an easy encounter for a party of four. It can be a fairly difficult encounter for a single adventurer. However, provided that the fighter build above can win initiative, he can take down a Frost Giant by himself, but I think the Fire Giant is a wee bit too much for him to handle alone.
Of course, the build is barebones and I am certainly others could do the same far better.
MA
In the interest of saving people another (smaller) wall of text:
So Scouting skills, at a 10 Int (I don't believe in stat-dumping) -
Hide(Dex) - Max Ranks
Perception(Wis) - Max Ranks (Worth noting that you'll notice more things than the Rogue, with his typically low Wis, would.)
Acrobatics(Dex) - Rank every other level
This leaves us 1 rank free and 1 extra rank every other level, to spend as we please:
Climb(Str) - 1 Point for the Class bonus, but if I can't jump where I need to climb, it's high enough that I can take my time or find a better way to get where I want to go.
Disable Device(Dex) - A good one to put a few points in, but hardly worth pumping. Enough to get past most non-magical locks fairly regularly.
Linguistics(Int) - One point, once in a blue moon as needed, for extra languages.
Swim(Str) - One point for Class bonus. You'll always be unarmored and in no more than a light load, so it's not like the very situational swim DCs are going to be very high.
As to your other skill suggestions:
Bluff/Diplomacy - Face/Thief skills, not scouting skills. (I'm starting to see why you think Monks need so much Int!)
Disguise - Unnecessary with a strong enough Hide. Better served for people who ~want~ to be spotted, just looking like someone other than themselves.
Escape Artist - Possibly worth a rank for the class bonus, but a better strategy is to just not get caught.
Intimidate - Why?? You're stepping so far out of your role here...
Knowledges - Why are you wasting your time? Give a description and let the skill monkey/Wizard tell you what you need to know.
Sense Motive - Not necessary at all for a Scout. Leave this to the party Face.
Slight of Hand - A useful skill, but very situationally so. Better served for thieves but hey, a few points here probably won't be totally wasted. Hardly worth worrying about though.
But you DO get separated, which means you need to be able to survive on your own.
The best way to survive is to run away. Trying to fight while seperated from the group is a pretty sure-fire way to get yourself killed, and that holds true for any class.
I make a speciality of Dex-based monks, and while strength is not primary, you need some strength or else you cannot inflict any damage. While inflicting damage is not the monk's forte, to get stunning fist to work you need to hit and do damage.
Just like you don't waste Fort save SoD spells on the Fighter types, it's probably a good idea not to use your Fort-save-ability on the burly guy in armor, yeah? Use your Stunning Fists intelligently.
...and with sneak attack the rogue is actually superior to the monk in the flanking position[...]
Kinda like how a Paladin is worse than a Fighter against non-evil opponents, but then starts to blow the Fighter away when he can Smite? ;)
If you want a scout, a rogue is better.
I would argue that a Ranger makes for an arguably better Scout (if he's in a place where he can use his Favored bonuses, he's better, if not, he's not better), but I see no real reason to assume a Monk can't do just as well as a Rogue.
And I'll let Liam defend himself here, but I just wanna touch down on your list of CR10 monsters:
You're ignore ye age olde "the DM pulls a challenge out of his ass." And ALL the caster types like two things - Spells with saves vs their weak save counterpart, and (Ranged) Touch spells.
That full plate fighter is a touch caster's b!tch. ;)
I can build an effective, smart, dex-based fighter. He's not optimal, but he's good at what he does and fun to play. I can make a sword-and-board tank too, a suave swashbuckler, or a simpleton with one trick and a big weapon. I can do all that with one class, the fighter, and all of them will be effective in their role within the party and I will have fun playing them. One of the problems I have with the monk that if I want to play an effective one - as a warrior or as a scout - I have almost no leeway in my choices of feats, skills and stats, and I hate that.
This is actually something that I've been bringing up a lot on the DDN playtest forums, and it's something that bugs me about D&D/Pathfinder in general.
To be blunt: That's not a fair argument, and it never will be.You have your four "core" classes: Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, and Wizard. These classes are basically blank canvas that you can paint whatever picture you want on them. The options are limitless.
Then you have "all the other classes:" Barbarian, Paladin, Monk, Ranger, etc. The classes are already shoe-horned in to at least a minimum of pre-determined identity. They may not be a fully "painted picture" yet, but some of the drawing is already done for you. They're ~far~ from the blank canvas that the "core 4" are.
And yes, Monks do need more options for success for combat situations but... well, this ties in a little to:
I don't WANT the monk to keep up with the fighter, this keeps getting reiterated again and again: what the monk lovers want are options that make them effective in combat, that enable them to do what the monk is supposed to do. Giving the monk natural enhancement and a boost to hit that does not involve a feat-tax would be great, because then that stunning fist might land now and again and have an effect, and those maneuvers might have a hope of working.
**********
[T]he unarmed combat specialist is actually better off armed...but has only a really bad selection of weapons to choose from.
I don't disagree with you on either of these things, but that's not what this thread is (supposed to be) about.
There is specific mechanic (FoB) that is broken with the material that has been released. This is the ~only~ thing they care about fixing. They never once said that this was the moment that they were going to overhaul all the woes of the Monk class. If that's what you're expecting, I feel you're going to be let down.And on a final note, either Fort/Will saves are the "common" saves (since Ref saves only ever amount to damage instead of SoS/SoD) or they're "uncommon." But c'mon, you can't have it both ways just to prop up your argument.
OK, spoilering too...
So Scouting skills, at a 10 Int (I don't believe in stat-dumping) -
Hide(Dex) - Max Ranks
Perception(Wis) - Max Ranks (Worth noting that you'll notice more things than the Rogue, with his typically low Wis, would.)
Acrobatics(Dex) - Rank every other levelThis leaves us 1 rank free and 1 extra rank every other level, to spend as we please:
Climb(Str) - 1 Point for the Class bonus, but if I can't jump where I need to climb, it's high enough that I can take my time or find a better way to get where I want to go.
Disable Device(Dex) - A good one to put a few points in, but hardly worth pumping. Enough to get past most non-magical locks fairly regularly.
Linguistics(Int) - One point, once in a blue moon as needed, for extra languages.
Swim(Str) - One point for Class bonus. You'll always be unarmored and in no more than a light load, so it's not like the very situational swim DCs are going to be very high.
Taking just these, you can make a passable (not a good, but passable) scout at around 3rd or 4th level and above - before then, you are missing sufficient skill ranks in essentials. So, what do you do for the first two or three levels, compared to the rogue or ranger?
This just underlines that the monk does not, in fact, make a good scout. He makes a passable scout, with intelligence a good scout, but almost never a top-notch scout, for which you need a ranger or rogue.
Meantime, as you pumped Dex and Wis, you have a great AC, but low hit points and damage output is awful. You have had to pay the feat tax of Weapon Finesse at least, and Agile Maneuvers if you wanted to do maneuvers. In other words, a rogue can probably fight as well as you (he didn't have to put points in wisdom, so he can have better strength & con).
The best way to survive is to run away. Trying to fight while seperated from the group is a pretty sure-fire way to get yourself killed, and that holds true for any class.
This is true, I will agree, but sometimes the run away option gets cut off. Also if the monk is meant to "appear where least expected" (see their role) this implies that they are there to take advantage and that, ultimately, means fight.
Just like you don't waste Fort save SoD spells on the Fighter types, it's probably a good idea not to use your Fort-save-ability on the burly guy in armor, yeah? Use your Stunning Fists intelligently.
Implying that you think I do not do so (sigh).
There are two problems with this statement. The first is that the stunning fist has to hit and do damage before a Fort save is even rolled. The monk is behind the other combat classes on chances to hit, so the first hurdle is causing problems right out off the block. This was as often the problem as anything early in my monk's career, just hitting things. It still is.
Only once you hit the target do you get a chance to have the stunning fist work. If you are fighting one creature that's killing the party, you don't get to choose the target, you hit it with stunning fist and pray because it's all you've got that may help! This is in fact how my stunning fist finally kicked in at 8th level against a giant lobster. It was great, when it worked. It just didn't work very often.
Kinda like how a Paladin is worse than a Fighter against non-evil opponents, but then starts to blow the Fighter away when he can Smite? ;)
When we are talking about always choosing to fight from the flanking position, there is no maybe about it, the rogue is always better.
It's ironic that you have to compare the monk to the other class in the game that is considered weak to show the monk is better than something at combat - and that class is not even considered to be a combat class.
Again, the complaint is not that the monk is not able to beat up targets that cannot fight back, it's that the monk struggles to fight effectively against many things that can, and that this is what he is supposed to be able to do. You could make a fallen paladin that could outfight a monk.
I would argue that a Ranger makes for an arguably better Scout (if he's in a place where he can use his Favored bonuses, he's better, if not, he's not better), but I see no real reason to assume a Monk can't do just as well as a Rogue.
Apart from the rogue having all the skills to do so from first level instead of having to wait, having trapfinding that boosts his perception past anything the monk can hope for finding traps, and having all the necessary skills maxed out rather than at 'passable' levels that can deal with some but not all challenges?
Bottom line is, a rogue makes a top-notch scout, but is considered 'weak' because other classes can now do some stuff as well as the rogue can. The monk can make a passable scout, but is considered weak because just about everything they do other than run fast can be done better by another class.
And I'll let Liam defend himself here, but I just wanna touch down on your list of CR10 monsters:
You're ignore ye age olde "the DM pulls a challenge out of his ass." And ALL the caster types like two things - Spells with saves vs their weak save counterpart, and (Ranged) Touch spells.
That full plate fighter is a touch caster's b!tch. ;)
And yet people still play full-plate fighters, they still survive, and no-one complains they are underpowered. This is because they are good at what they do, and their weaknesses do not outweigh their strengths.
The same cannot be said for the monk, whgich is why you get monk complaint threads.
This is actually something that I've been bringing up a lot on the DDN playtest forums, and it's something that bugs me about D&D/Pathfinder in general.
To be blunt: That's not a fair argument, and it never will be.You have your four "core" classes: Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, and Wizard. These classes are basically blank canvas that you can paint whatever picture you want on them. The options are limitless.
Then you have "all the other classes:" Barbarian, Paladin, Monk, Ranger, etc. The classes are already shoe-horned in to at least a minimum of pre-determined identity. They may not be a fully "painted picture" yet, but some of the drawing is already done for you. They're ~far~ from the blank canvas that the "core 4" are.
I agree, except that you can make more different kinds of effective core paladin than you can with a core monk, and the paladin class is supposed to be the most straight-jacketed class in the book. You can do it because MAD was reduced for the paladin, their abilities were tuned up, and as a result they have more options open to them.
And yes, Monks do need more options for success for combat situations but... well, this ties in a little to:
I don't WANT the monk to keep up with the fighter, this keeps getting reiterated again and again: what the monk lovers want are options that make them effective in combat, that enable them to do what the monk is supposed to do. Giving the monk natural enhancement and a boost to hit that does not involve a feat-tax would be great, because then that stunning fist might land now and again and have an effect, and those maneuvers might have a hope of working.
**********
[T]he unarmed combat specialist is actually better off armed...but has only a really bad selection of weapons to choose from.
I don't disagree with you on either of these things, but that's not what this thread is (supposed to be) about.
There is specific mechanic (FoB) that is broken with the material that has been released. This is the ~only~ thing they care about fixing. They never once said that this was the moment that they were going to overhaul all the woes of the Monk class. If that's what you're expecting, I feel you're going to be let down.
Originally you were correct, BUT since SKR posted into this thread that the devs understood that the monk was a weak class and needed fixing, and that the monk as a whole would be up for review, not just the ruling on FoB, the thread has changed direction onto what the monk needs to fix it.
I am happy, however, that we are in general agreement that the monk needs a little 'tune up' of their abilities.
And on a final note, either Fort/Will saves are the "common" saves (since Ref saves only ever amount to damage instead of SoS/SoD) or they're "uncommon." But c'mon, you can't have it both ways just to prop up your argument.
Nor do I want it to be, I merely mentioned that many more creatures could deliver area attacks than could deliver touch attacks from the CR10 list of creatures. However for the fighter, Reflex is less important because he can soak a certain amount of damage, while Fort and Will tend to be more debilitating. I also stated that Will-based attacks just don't seem to come up as often as every combat in most adventures I have been involved with.
Here is my Once and Future Monk, which I think incorporates just about everything we have been talking about. Let me know what you think.
MA
I don't hate it, but I wonder if you aren't outfighting the fighter with that particular Monk design.
Hardly, but I will post the math on the that thread.
MA
Neo2151, I fully understand your caution in the case of fixing the monk - the monk is very good, defensively, and would be broken if made too effective offensively. I think this is the reason for the dev's caution too; a well-made monk can be a nightmare to try and attack.
This may have been suggested already, and I know Dabbler's seen this suggestion from me in another thread, but...
A class feat (given at level 5 maybe) that allows a monk to use their Dex for To-Hit AND damage bonus, making them less MAD and tying AC into hitting and damage?
Some sort of divine spell list? Should a monk be able to pray for a spell? They are usually trained in temples...this could give access to True Strike or Greater Magic Weapon for Ki expenditure.
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Latest update from Jason in the Why we are confused and perhaps irritating thread.
Ugh,
Folks, seriously. We have stated now many times that we are going to take a look at the monk here soon. We've been under a terribly crunch for the past six months, getting Ultimate Equipment and NPC Codex out the door. We are currently working on Ultimate Campaign and Mythic, trying to get On Time as a department. This has caused us no end of problems and delays, one of which is our not being able to take some time to look into some ways to solve some of the monk issues.
Its still on our list. Near the top in fact, but the schedule has to come first. We will get to it, hopefully in the near future.
Until then, play nice. We are all on the same side here.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publising
Thanks for the update MA!
And thank YOU Jason Buhlman, for letting us know!!
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I think the whole problems keeps going back to this question: Are unarmed strikes one weapon or are they multiple weapons?
The entire defination of flurry of blows rests on this idea, along with the overpriced nature of the amulet of mighty fists.
For myself, I see unarmed strikes as a single weapon; therefore making flurry of blows not TWF, but instead a monk striking far faster than most other classes are capable of doing (but only with unarmed strikes and weapons with the monk special property).
We really need an answer to this question before the flurry issue can be settled by the developers.
So, what then would you see as the problems resulting from unarmed strikes as one weapon?
Certainly, it would prohibit someone from TWF with just unarmed strikes, although they could do so with unarmed strikes and a second weapon (either primary or off-hand). Is that a deal-breaker? Do enough classes actually USE unarmed strikes to make that a deal-breaker?
Now, if unarmed strikes are multiple weapons, and SKRs interpretation still holds (post #1 on this thread), where he says the following . . .
"If even one of the monk's potential attack forms is not identical to the others." Note the emphasis I placed there. Not planned attacks, or even designated attacks, but instead potential attacks. So, we need to know, exactly how many weapons unarmed strikes count as. Is it two? A primary hand and an off-hand (even though by the rules text in the monk class, there is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk using unarmed strikes). Is it four? Two fists and two feet. Is is five? Adding headbutt. Is it nine? Adding two elbows and two knees.
Given the language used (i.e., potential attack forms), this is must have need to know information. Because if even ONE is different, then by SKRs statement, you must divy up your attacks between those with an enhancement and those without.
We need this clarification to also know how many magic fang and magic weapon spells it takes to 'fully enhance' a monk's unarmed strikes. And we also need a clarification on greater magic fang: does one casting give a monk's unarmed strikes (all of them) a +1, or does it grant a higher bonus? Does a monk require up to nine castings of third-level spell to fully enhance their unarmed strikes so that they do not have to divide up their attacks? If unarmed strikes are multiple weapons, then it already takes multiple greater magic weapon spells to do the job . . . so how many exactly does it take?
We keep asking this and we get no answers.
So what do you think? Are unarmed strikes a single weapon, or multiple weapons? And if multiple, how many weapons do they count as?
MA