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You know, I was looking over my 1st edition AD&D Player's Handbook again. And something in there just leaped right out at me. That first monk ONLY got iterative attacks with his open-hand combat, i.e., what Gary Gygax called unarmed strikes back in the day.
With weapons, they got the same number of attacks a round as a cleric, a thief, a druid, an assassin, or a magic-user: ONE. Now, that old-style monk also got a damage bonus when using weapons equal to one-half his monk level. AND, there was no difference between standing still and moving; you got your full attacks either way.
Maybe, flurry of blows should apply only to unarmed strikes, not weapons, after all. That would disconnet the weapons from flurry as TWF, and . . . well, I'm not sure what. But I am thinking more and more we need to go back and look at what makes a monk a monk.
Forget all the stuff from 3.0 and 3.5 and Pathfinder; go back to the start of the game and look at the monk that Gygax made and the update made in Dragon and ask ourselves what do we want in a monk class?
...
I think that the original monk was more focused on unarmed combat to the point where it had a role; perhaps we need to look at that original class again and ask how can we translate the monk-as-a-unarmed combat-machine into Pathfinder in a way that remains true to the roots and base and tradition (gaming, film, television, and literature) of the concept of monk.
A lot of people today have absolutely NO experience with the original monk of AD&D; their ideas are based on 3.0, 3.5, 4th edition, Pathfinder, and Neverwinter Nights! Some folks would be down-right shocked into silence by the idea that a class could be limited to less than a dozen magical items (three of which were magic weapons) with all excess wealth having to be given over to your monastery! If they didn't faint from apolexy, that is!
The problem with the concept of the monk class itself is that it lacks focus. It doesn't seem to know what it wants to do. Is it a fast moving skirmisher who makes hit-and-run attacks? Then why have flurry of blows? Is it a master of maneuvers? Then why aren't the greater maneuver feats on his bonus feat list? Is it an unarmed combat specialist? Then whey are using weapons more effective? Is it a scout? Is it a pure defensive class can usually save against everything and always has the option to run away (leaving your party behidn to die in the process)?
What is the purpose of the monk class? It is a question that needs to be asked and must be answered before we can really fix the problems. Or so I believe.
Master Arminas
I played an AD&D monk back in 1981. It is difficult to remember details. He was lawful neutral, attacked well with his bare hands, and did not wear armor. Nobody in the party had magic items.
I better recall one major inspiration for the D&D monk: the Kung Fu TV show. The Shaolin monk Caine was wandering the Old West. Each episode he would arrive at a town or farmstead and stay as a hired hand. He would learn of the local bandits or hired gunslingers of a corrupt businessman and eventually he would be forced to confront them. Since television of that era did not let the evil people shoot in cold blood, the gunslingers would first try to intimidate him. Caine would lash out with his kung fu and disarm, trip, or stun three gunslingers before they realized they were under attack.
In addition, Caine always had a flashback to his youth in the monastery to recall a lesson in wisdom from old Master Po that adult Caine could use to help his employer before the kung fu fight.
I read that the wuxia stories are about a hero of humble origins who learned to fight and could defeat overwhelming odds despite living peacefully and looking harmless until provoked.
The fictional monk's role is to be humble and peaceful until attacked. He has to deflect the first blow with his high AC or shrug off the first spell with his good saves. Then he pulls out one trick--more attacks than expected or fast movement or high jump or a combat maneuver or a weaponless attack or Stunning Fist--that rebalances the unfair assault into a fair fight. That the tricks don't work together is appropriate, because he should need only one to take advantage of his opponent's cluelessness.
That does not match the Core Rulebook's introductory description of a monk as a person who trains his body to be a weapon of war. It does matches the role description below the introduction:
Role: Monks excel at overcoming even the most daunting perils, striking where it's least expected, and taking advantage of enemy vulnerabilities. Fleet of foot and skilled in combat, monks can navigate any battlefield with ease, aiding allies wherever they are needed most.
Too bad that peaceful role does not play out properly when the monk is traveling with a party of recognizeably dangerous adventurers. Likewise, wearing an expensive Amulet of Might Fists, Monk's Robe, and Belt of Physical Might ruins the humble appearance. Finally, the monk's abilities are an established part of the campaign world, so they are not unexpected.
Amusingly, the Pathfinder monk has a lot more unexpected abilities than the D&D monk, because Pathfinder has monk archetypes with different abilities.
As for me personally, I like playing humble characters: the pious cleric, the traveling ranger, the disciplined monk. Fighters, wizards, and rogues have a built-in arrogance about being the best. The cleric says, "I'll heal that wound for you." The ranger says, "I'll set up camp for the night and hunt up dinner." The monk says, "I'll assist," because I play a Ki Mystic who can temporarily enhance his skill checks. Likewise, that monk carries enchanted weapons just like his fellow party members, a pair of +1 kamas gifted to him by a teacher (despite the cash disappearing from his coin purse as a donation), rather than non-humble specialty items like Amulet of Mighty Fists.
Pretty much, Mathmuse.
The monk's role is defined in the core rulebook, and it's that definition that we need to aim at, I believe. The problem is that the monk just does not fulfil that definition as it currently stands. However, it wouldn;t take much for them to do so.
Food for thought, gentlemen. Thank you all.
MA
I believe, a long time ago, on a page far, far away in this thread, someone asked if anyone could break the Monk of the Four Winds ability Slow Time that allows for three Standard actions (and a move action).
So I think I finally did it to the best of my ability. I'm not going to do the full break down, just sum up the most important parts.
Key items are:
Monk's Robe
Wand of Animal Aspect - specifically the Gorilla Aspect
Wand of Lead Blades
This does require a 20 level build though. However, it's a 16th level Monk, 4th level Fighter so his BAb will be 16 and qualify for the right feat.
Feats:
Vital Strikes
Improved Vital Strike
Greater Vital Strike
So, what does this all add up to? I'll break it down. At 16th level, the Monk has an unarmed strike of 2d8. However, this character has a Monk's Robe making his unarmed strike 2d10. Animal Aspect - Gorilla increases damage dice by one step, this is a Polymorph effect. Lead Blades also increases the damage dice by one step, this is simply a Transmutation effect though, so it stacks with Animal Aspect, at least as far as I am aware.
Now, I've heard because Enlarge Person increases your size, and Lead Blades treats your weapons as one size category larger, they don't stack because size increases don't stack, regardless of the source, so I won't be factoring that in. However, if they do stack, it just makes this set up 'more better' and one should include a Wand of Enlarge Person in the items as well.
So, 2d8 -> 2d10 and large Monks deal 4d8 instead of 2d10. Now Improved Natural Attack shows a progression of 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8, and we have two total increases in damage dice. So 2d10 -> 4d8 -> 6d8.
The four Fighter levels increase the BAB of the Monk to +16 and as the Fighter's bonus feat as a 4th level Fighter, he chooses Greater Vital Strike.
So, the Monk can now, as a standard action with all his buffs on, make an attack roll with a Greater Vital Strike and deal 24d8 points of damage. Now a Monk of the Four Winds gets a scaling Elemental Fist and at 16th level, this is a total of 4d6 elemental damage of the Monk's choice at the time of his activation.
So the Monk of the Four Winds could spend 6 Ki points as a swift action and gain 3 standard actions. On the first standard action, he uses Elemental Fist and Greater Vital Strike to hit for 24d8 bludgeoning and 4d6 elemental damage. Elemental Fist is still limited to once per round, so the following two attacks are only 24d8 attacks.
In total, if all three attacks hit, the Monk will deal 72d8 points of bludgeoning damage and 4d6 points of elemental damage.
If Enlarge Person is stackable as well, this becomes 32d8 damage each for a total of 96d8 bludgeoning + 4d6 elemental damage.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but assuming all three hits then the average damage of each scenario is (72 * 4) + (4 * 3) = 288 + 12 damage; or (96 * 4) + (4 * 3) = 384 + 12 damage.
Thoughts?
I wish I could get another increase in there somewhere to turn the unarmed strike into a 12d8 punch or 144d8 (576) + 4d6 damage!!! *sigh* Too bad about not qualifying for Improved Natural Attack.
[Edit] Added links.
[Edit2]
[Edit3] By the way, such a Monk could probably pull this off twice in one day. He'll have 8 + Wisdom mod Ki points a day and it's not unreasonable to see him have at least an 18 Wisdom, so he'll have around 12 Ki points. Enough for two, 3 hit Punches.
It's been mentioned by multiple people, multiple times. It's no one's idea as much as it is everyone's idea.No one noticed the smiley face?
Sarcasm...
I actually didn't see the smiley face.
Also, Sarcasm doesn't translate well.
From now on, this will be the tag for saracasm
(S)
I think this will clear up all confusion (S)
Funny you mention that, but I remember reading that ⸮ could be used to denote sarcasm :)
That looks awesome Tels! However, I will point out that in DPR terms it's probably not all that hot, as you have to hit the target to damage it. This monk is +8 to hit behind the fighter, who also has more weapon properties to bring in and is hitting for awesomesauce damage at level 20 as well, but it is an interesting concept.
Oh I know he is, and I may sit down later on and try for a full on build. I think those 4 levels of Fighter will help a lot, though I am thinking of dropping it to 15 Monk/5 Fighter so he can get Weapon Training (close) and thus, Gloves of Dueling.
The build will take a little while though. Got a new computer while back and switch my Hero Labs over, then the new computer went caput (something wrong internally), but the warrant covered it (I know, rare right?). Hero Labs won't let you switch licenses but once ever 120 days to prevent theft/abuse. Thinking about just buying a new license though, so I can have one as a back up for just such occasions.
So I bought a Second license and decided to roll up Captain Falcon.
Here are my results:
This version of Captain Falcon is under the affects of a Lead Blades spell and an Animal Aspect – Gorilla spell. These two spells, plus the Monk’s Robe, take his unarmed damage dice from 2d6 -> 2d10 -> 4d8 -> 6d8 and Greater Vital Strike turns that into 18d8 as a Standard Action.
Male Dwarf Fighter (Unarmed Fighter) 5 Monk (Monk of the Four Winds) 15
LN Medium Humanoid (Dwarf)
Init +5; Senses Darkvision; Perception +32
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DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 43, touch 35, flat-footed 37 (+8 armor, +5 Dex, +5 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 218 (5d10+15d8+120)
Fort +24, Ref +20, Will +24
Defensive Abilities Defensive Training, Evasion, Harsh Training +1, Improved Evasion; DR 2/lethal;
Immune Diamond Body, disease, poison; Resist fire 20; SR 25
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 70 ft.
Melee Unarmed Strike +34/+29/+24/+19 (6d8+20/20/x2)
Special Attacks Flurry of Blows +36/+36/+31/+31/+26/+26/+21/+21; Ki Strike, Lawful, Magic; Quivering Palm (1/day) (DC 26); Weapon Training +1 (+3)
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 22/28, Dex 14/20, Con 16/22, Int 10/16, Wis 22/28, Cha 6
Base Atk +16; CMB +29; CMD 60 (64 vs. Disarm, 64 vs. Sunder)
Feats Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes (6 AoO/round), Dodge, Efreeti Stance, Efreeti Style, Efreeti Touch, Elemental Fist (4d6) (18/day), Extra Ki, Gorgon's Fist (DC 29), Greater Vital Strike, Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Vital Strike, Medusa's Wrath, Mobility, Monk Weapon Proficiencies, Scorpion Style (DC 29), Spring Attack, Steel Soul, Vital Strike, Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike, Weapon Specialization: Unarmed Strike
Traits Dangerously Curious, Quain Martial Artist
Skills Acrobatics +28, Perception +32, Sense Motive +17, Stealth +28, Use Magic Device +22
Languages Common, Dwarven, Giant, Goblin, Orc
SQ AC Bonus +14, Fast Movement (+50'), Gloves of Dueling, Greed, Hardy +2 Poison/+4 Spells or Spelllike Effects, Hatred +1, High Jump (+15/+35 with Ki point) (Ex), Ki Defense (Su), Ki Mat, Ki Pool (Su), Maneuver Training (Ex), Purity of Body (Ex), Ring of Invisibility, Slow and Steady, Slow Fall 70' (Ex), Slow Time (Su), Stability +4, Still Mind (Ex), Stonecunning +2, Unarmed Strike (2d6), Wholeness of Body (15 HP/use) (Su)
Other Gear Amulet of Mighty Fists +5, Belt of Physical Perfection, +6, Boots of Speed (10 rounds/day), Bracers of Armor, +8, Cloak of Resistance, +5, Gloves of Dueling, Goz Mask (60 minutes/day), Headband of Mental Prowess, INT & WIS +6: Diplomacy, Bluff, Ki Mat, Manual of Bodily Health, +1, Manual of Gainful Exercise, +4, Ring of Invisibility, Ring of Protection, +5, Robe, Monk's, Tome of Understanding, +4, Wand of Animal Aspect, Wand of Enlarge Person, Wand of Lead Blades
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
AC Bonus +14 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
Blind-Fight Re-roll misses because of concealment, other benefits.
Combat Reflexes (6 AoO/round) You may make up to 6 attacks of opportunity per round, and may make them while flat-footed.
Damage Reduction (2/lethal) You have Damage Reduction against non-lethal damage
Damage Resistance, Fire (20) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Fire attacks.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Defensive Training +4 Gain a dodge bonus to AC vs monsters of the Giant subtype.
Diamond Body (Su) At 11th level, a monk gains immunity to poisons of all kinds.
Efreeti Stance Gain +1 use of Elemental Fist per day and fire resistance
Efreeti Style Gain +1 use of Elemental Fist per day and a bonus on fire damage
Efreeti Touch Can emit a cone of fire that may light opponents on fire
Elemental Fist (4d6) (18/day) You can add 1d6 energy damage to an attack.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Movement (+50') The Monk adds 10 or more feet to his base speed.
Gorgon's Fist (DC 29) Standard action: stagger a target whose speed is reduced.
Greed +2 to Appraise checks to determine the price of nonmagical goods that contain precious metals or gemstones.
Hardy +2 Poison/+4 Spells or Spell-like Effects Gain a racial bonus to saves vs Poison, Spells and Spell-Like effects.
Harsh Training +1 (Ex) +1 Will save vs. effects that cause exhausted, fatigued, or staggered conditions or temporary penalties to ability scores
Hatred +1 Gain a racial bonus to attacks vs Goblinoids/Orcs.
High Jump (+15/+35 with Ki point) (Ex) +15 to Acrobatics checks made to jump.
Immunity to Disease You are immune to diseases.
Immunity to Poison You are immune to poison.
Improved Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead. If you fail you take half damage.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Ki Defense (Su) A monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round.
Ki Pool (Su) You have a ki pool equal to 1/2 your monk level + your Wisdom modifier.
Ki Strike, Lawful, Magic (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as lawful and magic to overcome DR.
Maneuver Training (Ex) CMB = other BABs + Monk level
Medusa's Wrath Full attack: Add 2 unarmed strikes against a dazed, flat-footed, paralyzed, staggered, stunned, or unconscious foe.
Mobility +4 to AC against some attacks of opportunity.
Purity of Body (Ex) At 5th level, a monk gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.
Quivering Palm (1/day) (DC 26) (Su) Begin vibrations you can trigger with a thought to kill subject later.
Scorpion Style (DC 29) Standard action: Unarmed strike also reduces target's land speed to 5'
Slow and Steady Your base speed is never modified by encumbrance.
Slow Fall 70' (Ex) Treat a fall as shorter than normal if within arm's reach of a wall.
Slow Time (Su) 6 Ki points: +2 standard actions this round, movement does not provoke AoO.
Spell Resistance (25) You have Spell Resistance.
Spring Attack You can move - attack - move when attacking with a melee weapon.
Stability +4 Gain bonus to CMD vs bull rush/trip while standing on ground.
Steel Soul Hardy's save vs. spells and spell-like abilities becomes +4
Still Mind (Ex) +2 to saves against enchantment spells and effects.
Stonecunning +2 +2 bonus to Perception vs unusual stonework. Free check within 10 feet.
Unarmed Strike (2d6) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
Vital Strike Standard action: x4 weapon damage dice.
Weapon Training +1 (+3) (Ex) +1 (+3) to hit and damage with monk and natural weapons.
Wholeness of Body (15 HP/use) (Su) Self-heal monk level in damage for 2 Ki points.
This version of Captain Falcon is under the affects of a Enlarge Person spell, a Lead Blades spell and an Animal Aspect – Gorilla spell. These three spells, plus the Monk’s Robe, take his unarmed damage dice from 2d6 -> 2d10 -> 4d8 -> 6d8 -> 8d8 and Greater Vital Strike turns that into 24d8 as a Standard Action.
Male Dwarf Fighter (Unarmed Fighter) 5 Monk (Monk of the Four Winds) 15
LN Large Humanoid (Dwarf)
Init +4; Senses Darkvision; Perception +32
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DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 41, touch 33, flat-footed 36 (+8 armor, +4 Dex, -1 size, +5 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 218 (5d10+15d8+120)
Fort +24, Ref +19, Will +24
Defensive Abilities Defensive Training, Evasion, Harsh Training +1, Improved Evasion; DR 2/lethal;
Immune Diamond Body, disease, poison; Resist fire 20; SR 25
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 70 ft.
Melee Unarmed Strike +34/+29/+24/+19 (8d8+21/20/x2)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Special Attacks Flurry of Blows +36/+36/+31/+31/+26/+26/+21/+21; Ki Strike, Lawful, Magic; Quivering Palm (1/day) (DC 26); Weapon Training +1 (+3)
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 22/30, Dex14/18, Con 16/22, Int 10/16, Wis 22/28, Cha 6
Base Atk +16; CMB +31; CMD 61 (65 vs. Disarm, 65 vs. Sunder)
Feats Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes (5 AoO/round), Dodge, Efreeti Stance, Efreeti Style, Efreeti Touch, Elemental Fist (4d6) (18/day), Extra Ki, Gorgon's Fist (DC 29), Greater Vital Strike, Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Vital Strike, Medusa's Wrath, Mobility, Monk Weapon Proficiencies, Scorpion Style (DC 29), Spring Attack, Steel Soul, Vital Strike, Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike, Weapon Specialization: Unarmed Strike
Traits Dangerously Curious, Quain Martial Artist
Skills Acrobatics +27, Fly +2, Perception +32, Sense Motive +17, Stealth +23, Use Magic Device +22
Languages Common, Dwarven, Giant, Goblin, Orc
SQ AC Bonus +14, Fast Movement (+50'), Gloves of Dueling, Greed, Hardy +2 Poison/+4 Spells or Spelllike Effects, Hatred +1, High Jump (+15/+35 with Ki point) (Ex), Ki Defense (Su), Ki Mat, Ki Pool (Su), Maneuver Training (Ex), Purity of Body (Ex), Ring of Invisibility, Slow and Steady, Slow Fall 70' (Ex), Slow Time (Su), Stability +4, Still Mind (Ex), Stonecunning +2, Unarmed Strike (2d10), Wholeness of Body (15 HP/use) (Su)
Other Gear Amulet of Mighty Fists +5, Belt of Physical Perfection, +6, Boots of Speed (10 rounds/day), Bracers of Armor, +8, Cloak of Resistance, +5, Gloves of Dueling, Goz Mask (60 minutes/day), Headband of Mental Prowess, INT & WIS +6: Diplomacy, Bluff, Ki Mat, Manual of Bodily Health, +1, Manual of Gainful Exercise, +4, Ring of Invisibility, Ring of Protection, +5, Robe, Monk's, Tome of Understanding, +4, Wand of Animal Aspect, Wand of Enlarge Person, Wand of Lead Blades
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
AC Bonus +14 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
Blind-Fight Re-roll misses because of concealment, other benefits.
Combat Reflexes (5 AoO/round) You may make up to 5 attacks of opportunity per round, and may make them while flat-footed.
Damage Reduction (2/lethal) You have Damage Reduction against non-lethal damage
Damage Resistance, Fire (20) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Fire attacks.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Defensive Training +4 Gain a dodge bonus to AC vs monsters of the Giant subtype.
Diamond Body (Su) At 11th level, a monk gains immunity to poisons of all kinds.
Efreeti Stance Gain +1 use of Elemental Fist per day and fire resistance
Efreeti Style Gain +1 use of Elemental Fist per day and a bonus on fire damage
Efreeti Touch Can emit a cone of fire that may light opponents on fire
Elemental Fist (4d6) (18/day) You can add 1d6 energy damage to an attack.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Movement (+50') The Monk adds 10 or more feet to his base speed.
Gorgon's Fist (DC 29) Standard action: stagger a target whose speed is reduced.
Greed +2 to Appraise checks to determine the price of nonmagical goods that contain precious metals or gemstones.
Hardy +2 Poison/+4 Spells or Spell-like Effects Gain a racial bonus to saves vs Poison, Spells and Spell-Like effects.
Harsh Training +1 (Ex) +1 Will save vs. effects that cause exhausted, fatigued, or staggered conditions or temporary penalties to ability scores
Hatred +1 Gain a racial bonus to attacks vs Goblinoids/Orcs.
High Jump (+15/+35 with Ki point) (Ex) +15 to Acrobatics checks made to jump.
Immunity to Disease You are immune to diseases.
Immunity to Poison You are immune to poison.
Improved Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead. If you fail you take half damage.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Ki Defense (Su) A monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round.
Ki Pool (Su) You have a ki pool equal to 1/2 your monk level + your Wisdom modifier.
Ki Strike, Lawful, Magic (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as lawful and magic to overcome DR.
Maneuver Training (Ex) CMB = other BABs + Monk level
Medusa's Wrath Full attack: Add 2 unarmed strikes against a dazed, flat-footed, paralyzed, staggered, stunned, or unconscious foe.
Mobility +4 to AC against some attacks of opportunity.
Purity of Body (Ex) At 5th level, a monk gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.
Quivering Palm (1/day) (DC 26) (Su) Begin vibrations you can trigger with a thought to kill subject later.
Scorpion Style (DC 29) Standard action: Unarmed strike also reduces target's land speed to 5'
Slow and Steady Your base speed is never modified by encumbrance.
Slow Fall 70' (Ex) Treat a fall as shorter than normal if within arm's reach of a wall.
Slow Time (Su) 6 Ki points: +2 standard actions this round, movement does not provoke AoO.
Spell Resistance (25) You have Spell Resistance.
Spring Attack You can move - attack - move when attacking with a melee weapon.
Stability +4 Gain bonus to CMD vs bull rush/trip while standing on ground.
Steel Soul Hardy's save vs. spells and spell-like abilities becomes +4
Still Mind (Ex) +2 to saves against enchantment spells and effects.
Stonecunning +2 +2 bonus to Perception vs unusual stonework. Free check within 10 feet.
Unarmed Strike (2d10) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
Vital Strike Standard action: x4 weapon damage dice.
Weapon Training +1 (+3) (Ex) +1 (+3) to hit and damage with monk and natural weapons.
Wholeness of Body (15 HP/use) (Su) Self-heal monk level in damage for 2 Ki points.
Now, both Monks have the Efreeti Style chain of feats. Mostly thematic for the 'Captain Falcon' angle I was going for, but still good. Anytime Captain Falcon uses Elemental Fist - Fire while the Efreeti Style is active, he gains a bonus to the damage equal to his Wisdom modifier (+9). Also, even if he misses, the enemy still automatically takes 1d6 points of fire damage. Whenever an enemy takes Fire damage from Captain Falcon's Elemental Fist, they must make a DC 29 Reflex save or catch on fire. Also, as a standard action, Captain Falcon can use up two of his Elemental Fists to unleash a 15-ft cone of fire that deals damage to Captain Falcon's Unarmed Strike damage, plus his Elemental Fist damage and catch on fire. A DC 29 Reflex save reduces the damage by half, and negates the catching on fire.
Not even Flurrying, Captain Falcon has +34 to hit on his best attack (BAB 16 + 5 Enhancement + 9 Str + 3 Weapon Training + 1 Weapon Fcs). Monster Building chart says the average AC for a CR 20 creature is 36, so his first attack only has a 5% miss chance on the average AC of a CR 20 creature.
Since Captain Falcon can Slow Time for 6 Ki points, and to gain 2 additional Standard Actions (for a total of 3 Standard, 1 move), he can make 3 attacks at his highest attack (+34) and miss on each attack 5% of the time. Granted, this is only against the average AC of a CR 20 creature, but I still think it's rather darn good for a Monk.
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OMG! Even using Copy/Paste, my fingers hurt from bolding everything! If it wasn't for Hero Labs messing up the numbers, I would have just linked a PDF or something. But NOOOO, Hero Labs kept giving strength and a half on the unarmed strike, wouldn't calculate attack bonuses properly, and wouldn't make use of certain items, miss-calculated weapon damage, messed up AC etc, etc. I've never had this kind of problem with Hero Labs before, wonder if the version I downloaded got corrupted?
[Edit] Correct some numbers. Also, I've spent more time typing this post and editing Hero Labs results than I spent building the character. Ugh, total fail I think. I used Hero Lab to speed up my building process, and in some ways, it slowed me down.
The original idea for this was when I came across the Animal Aspect spell and noticed the Gorilla aspect. My thought was, "Huh, I'd love to get an item that does that for my Monk, and mix it with a Lead Blades spell or Enlarge Per... hmmm" My current Monk is, himself, a Monk of the Four Winds, and when I pictured a Monk of the Four Winds that unleashes a torrent of fire with his Punch, I pictured Vital Strike to go along with hit to make it really hurt, and then I remembered Captain Falcon from Super Smash Bros.
My original idea for Captain Falcon was a 10 level Build with two custom items that gave Animal Aspect and Lead Blades, and if that's not allowed, then he'd have Wands instead.
Then I remembered that Monks of the Four Winds got Slow Time at 12th level and I just took the idea from there.
Generally speaking, I really didn't pay attention to when I was selecting Feats, with a few exceptions, as long as he had them. Though I could probably plot it out better, such a post would take some time for me to set up.
I should mention, I did not spend 50,500 gp of Captain Falcon's gear, so that could be used for whatever purpose someone desires.
Also, I noticed another error too late in the build. For the life of me, I cannot figure out how Hero Labs calculated a CMB of 61 for Captain Falcon. If there was one change I would make, it would be to squeeze Improved Grapple in there somewhere, because I recall Captain Falcon grabbing people in Super Smash Bros. and when he released them, he caused a fiery explosion (Elemental Fist).
I will try and work on a Feat line up for you though. It won't be too hard, it'll just take time.
[Edit] Figured out how Hero Labs got 61: Base 10 + 10 Str + 5 Dex + 9 Wis + 5 Monk + 16 BAB + 5 Ring of Protection + 1 Size (from Enlarge Person = 61.
[Edit] Here's a PDF of the Enlarged Captain Falcon. Can you imagine being on the opposite end of a Haste/Ki/Medusa's Wrath Flurry of Blows from this guy? +38/+38/+38/+38/+38/+38/+33/+33/+28/+28/+23/+23 each at 8d8 + 21 points of damage? Yikes!
It's nifty, certainly.
I still prefer Icandu as an iconic monk though.
Oh indead, Icandu really was very 'Monkish' as most people think of him. But at the same time, Captain Falcon above would be easily recognized as a Monk as well.
He can flip, twirl, roll and dodge all across the battlfield; fights unarmed and seems to channel an inner energy to fuel powerful attacks, moves extremely quickly and is very hard to hit. You can't really pin him down as he can out run most classes and avoid most hazards thanks to his good saves. When you really look at his gear, nothing is going to be out of place for what a non-magical Monk might have. He's wearing a belt, a necklace, a headband, some goggles (admittedly weird, but not unreasonable), a cloak, some bracers, gloves, some rings and a set of robes.
He's not carrying any weapons (though I could have given him some shuriken or other ranged weapon). When you see him use an Elemental Fist, what I like to imagine it as, is him pulling his fist back as some kind of energy swirls, and then he lashes out with a torrent of energy take the form of a flaming punch. It could also be crackling electricity, a freezing chill, or dripping in acid.
Icandu is more a subtle Monk, while Falcon is much more flashy. But both very much so strike me as 'Monks' when you look at their abilities and flavor.
True! Again, though, this underlines that a monk can work...if you stretch everything to the limit, and are prepared to suck for many levels. Icandu only shines once he has an agile AoMF; Captain Falcon only dishes out the mega-damage at 20th level.
I chose his feats, like Spring Attack, to make him more of a striker at lower levels. Someone to piss off, annoy and harass the enemy. Between Spring Attack and his Acrobatics, he could move in and strike a blow and move out.
For instance, he could use Spring Attack to constantly harass the enemy, or be doing things like moving in, making a Vital Strike Elemental Fist, then on the next round, another Vital Strike Elemental Fist, and tumbling away to get out of range. He'll have a pretty good AC through most levels, and he'll be able to take a hit or two without serious threat.
At 12th level is when he starts shining as he can start unleashing those Falcon Punches.
But, I did also have to use 3 books and pretty good knowledge of the game to make him too. That just further goes to show you need fairly good levels of system mastery and knowledge of the game to make a Monk that works at all.
I am very fond of Captain Falcon though, and I intend to use a 10th level version as an NPC at some point in the future. Maybe even make the 10th level version a Simulacrum of the true 20th level version, who is locked away by the BBEG? Sounds kind of deliciously evil.
[Edit] The one I intend to use also won't be this one. He'll be closer to the 'bounty hunter' Captain Falcon from F-Zero, or at least I'll try. I'm thinking Monk of the Four Winds/Qinggong Monk and swapping out Slow Fall for Bakskin, High Jump for Gaseous Form (for infiltration) and Wholeness of Body for Share Memories (to aid in tracking his mark). If I go with the 20 level version, he'll be losing Diamond Soul for either Ki Leech of Shadow Step. I'm leaning more towards Ki Leech, as Gaseous Form will already let him move around to find his bounty pretty well, plus I like the idea of him dropping a Smoke Pellet and using Gaseous Form, giving the impression he vanished in a puff of smoke (which he kind of did).
His ability scores will also change as I'd rather him be a bit smarter for the skills and possibly a little less coarse, by bumping his Charisma.
The problem with spring attack and the monk has been gone into before - it doesn't work too well, because the monk either doesn't get counter-attacked at all (in which case they may as well flurry for better to hit and damage) or else they are and in an exchange of blows the monk often loses.
The problem is, at 10th level, the Flurry Monk is only +1 to hit over the Spring Attack Monk.
The way I picture it is for him to be that 'mysterious bounty hunter' who often works alone. As a single man party his APL is equal to his class level -1. So at 10th level, his APL is 9. He'll have a ball-park figure of +15 to hit, +16 Flurry against the average AC of 23. Not great, sure, but he'll still hit fairly often. In this situation, you'd see a lot more of move + Vital Strike/Elemental Fist and then Elemental Fist + Flurry. If he needs to, he can Spring Attack and move away from his target, using Gaseous Form and stealth to attack from random locations, keeping his opponent off guard.
In a full-fledged party, you'll see him doing things more like striking first and leading the enemy int choke points where the party has set up ambushes. Then, he gets into the fray using his various abilities.
Granted, yes, he won't be great at lower levels, but it's hard to build a Monk that is. At 12+ he'll be doing a lot better, but that's usually for Monks in general.
I'm not looking at him from an optimized PVP point of view, more as a thematic NPC character. It fits his flavor to be able to Spring Attack, tumble and hit hard with one punch.
The problem is, at 10th level, the Flurry Monk is only +1 to hit over the Spring Attack Monk.
It's not his chances to hit that are the issue, it's the fact that a solid fighter at 9th level can hit harder on a single blow. So even against a CR-appropriate challenge, he could be over matched in an exchange of single blows.
The way I picture it is for him to be that 'mysterious bounty hunter' who often works alone. As a single man party his APL is equal to his class level -1. So at 10th level, his APL is 9. He'll have a ball-park figure of +15 to hit, +16 Flurry against the average AC of 23. Not great, sure, but he'll still hit fairly often. In this situation, you'd see a lot more of move + Vital Strike/Elemental Fist and then Elemental Fist + Flurry. If he needs to, he can Spring Attack and move away from his target, using Gaseous Form and stealth to attack from random locations, keeping his opponent off guard.
Monks do actually work quite well solo, in many ways I agree.
In a full-fledged party, you'll see him doing things more like striking first and leading the enemy int choke points where the party has set up ambushes. Then, he gets into the fray using his various abilities.
A monk can make a good scout if you invest in the right feats, and enough of them.
Granted, yes, he won't be great at lower levels, but it's hard to build a Monk that is. At 12+ he'll be doing a lot better, but that's usually for Monks in general.
This is a problem with the current monk, I agree. Actually at higher level the lack of bonus to hit starts to kick in instead.
I'm not looking at him from an optimized PVP point of view, more as a thematic NPC character. It fits his flavor to be able to Spring Attack, tumble and hit hard with one punch.
Remember, you cannot use Vital Strike with Spring Attack.
He's not supposed to be out damaging an equal level fighter, though I will admit, he potentially could at the high-end levels if enough of his attacks connect. At 9th level, he's more a striker and scout, working solo missions by himself. He needs to be able to hit hard enough to deal damage, but be able to get himself out of a sticky situation if stuff hits the fan.
I think, for the most part, he could reasonably fill out that roll. He's not going to be hitting super hard. Not yet, but he'll be able to hit enough to draw attention to himself, which is what he wants to do.
I know Spring Attack doesn't work with Vital Strike (which, as a houserule, we allow Vital Strike to work any time you only get a single attack), but he cans till move, and Vital Strike + Elemental Fist in one round, then on the following round, Vital Strike + Elemental Fist and tumble away.
I just rolled up a 10th level version. When Enlarged, he's got an AC of 22, +15 on his attack and deals 4d8+8 points of damage and if he uses Elemental Fist, 2d6 (+4 if Fire damage).
When not Enlarged, his AC is 24 with a +15 attack bonus and deals 2d8+7 on a hit.
If he uses Vital Strike and tumbles away, he can deal 8d8+8 or 4d8+7 plus his Elemental Fist damage.
This is, of course, assuming he manages to get two rounds to cast Lead Blades and Animal Aspect on himself.
I was looking over the Flurry of Blows, Two-Weapon Fighting, and Unarmed Strike rules to catalog the ambiguities in them. As I said back in Post 431 of this thread, my primary concern about the clarification of Flurry of Blows is that I am now unsure of the rules.
Then I spotted a very interesting ambiguity that I had overlooked before.
Flurry of Blows (Ex): Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).I emphasized that word "may". Flurry of Blows gets weird if we ignore that "may." As Tels said in post 541,
A lot of this issue popped up because of PFS. A sohei in PFS now has to forgo half his attacks, or kick the ground, when using a reach weapon. A zen archer is the same way.
If the all attacks are mandatory, the monk who cannot make an unarmed strike against the opponent (reach is the obvious reason, but some creatures the monk would not want to touch with his bare hand.) must attack something else, i.e., kick the ground.
But does the "may" refer only to the exta attack? The FAQ about Multiple Weapons says,
Multiple Weapons, Iterative Attacks, and Two-Weapon Fighting (page 202): If I have iterative attacks from a high BAB, can I make attacks with different weapons and not incur a two-weapon fighting penalty?
Yes. Basically, you only incur TWF penalties if you are trying to get an extra attack per round.
(Skipping example of iterative full attack without TWF.)
The two-weapon fighting option in the Core Rulebook specifically refers to getting an extra attack for using a second weapon in your offhand. In the above four examples, there is no extra attack, therefore you're not using two-weapon fighting.
(Skipping example of iterative full attack with TWF.)
In other words, once you decide you're using two-weapon fighting to get that extra attack on your turn (which you have to decide before you take any attacks on your turn), that decision locks you in to the format of "my primary weapon gets my main attack and my iterative attack, and my off hand weapon only gets the extra attack, and I apply two-weapon fighting penalties."—Sean K Reynolds, 11/04/11
In Post 431 I was operating from two interpretations.
1) Flurry of Blows is a standalone ability based on Two-Weapon Fighting with the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, or2) Flurry of Blows is Two-Weapon Fighting with some restrictions and extra benefits.
I missed a third possibility:
3) Flurry of Blows is a full attack with some restrictions and extra benefits that favor Two-Weapon Fighting. Like all full attacks, it may be combined with Two-Weapon Fighting.
Can a player say, "My sohei monk is using Flurry of Blows with his polearm. Since he cannot reach his target with any other weapon, he is forgoing the extra attacks with his off hand. Therefore, he has no TWF penalties and is attacking at BAB equal to his monk level."?
Does the "may" in Flurry of Blows refer to the additional attack or the Two-Weapon Fighting? The FAQ says that the two are the same thing, which would mean that a monk may chose to not use Two-Weapon Fighting when making a Flurry of Blows.
Unfortunately, the words "as if using Two-Weapon Fighting" disallow Flurry from being mixed with TWF feats.
The may refers to the Monks ability to make extra attacks. If he doesn't make the extra attacks, he doesn't gain the benefits of the flurry of blows' increased BAB. I think you're reading too much into the word 'may'.
Tels, since your Captain Falcon build focuses on the vital strike chain, could you wear light armor (0 ACP) with the brawling property? Easy way to rack up another +2 unnamed bonus on unarmed attacks and damage, if you can. I mean, you can't flurry when moving anyway, right?
MA
Not to mention MA it has the right number of attacks to actually use the bodywraps.
Heh. That thread still locked?
MA
Here's an idea I had for a monk archetype (I have NO IDEA what to call it, so it is just blank monk for now). Since we seem to be getting all kinds of cool stuff a monk can't use, I thought we needed an archtype that did away with everything that vanishes if we wear armor. Hey, so now we can wear armor and use a light shield or buckler!
Tell me what you think (and if you come up with a name, I'll credit you).
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Blank monks are proficient with the club, crossbow (light or heavy), dagger, handaxe, javelin, quarterstaff, shortspear, short sword, sling, spear, unarmed strike, and any special monk weapon.
Blank monks are proficient with light armor, but not with medium or heavy armor. Blank monks are proficient with bucklers and light shields, but not with heavy shields or tower shields.
Swift Moves: At 1st level, a blank monk gains a +10’ bonus to his speed. This is not an enhancement bonus and this bonus does not increase as the blank monk gains levels.
Swift Moves replaces the AC Bonus ability of the monk.
Deflect Blows: At 3rd level, a blank monk may attempt to deflect a single successful melee attack, if he is wielding a buckler or a light shield in one hand. As an immediate action, no more than once per round, the blank monk may select a single melee attack which has successfully struck him and roll a Reflex saving throw against a DC equal to the attack roll. The decision to use this ability must be made after the attack roll is confirmed but before the damage has been determined. If successful, the blank monk negates the attack and suffers no damage. If the saving throw fails, the blank monk suffers the normal damage from the attack. This ability is not affected by either evasion or improved invasion.
Deflect Blows replaces the Fast Movement ability of the monk.
Ki Assault: At 4th level, a blank monk gains a bonus of +1 on all attack rolls he makes with unarmed strikes and combat maneuvers, so long as he has at least 1 point remaining in his ki pool. At 8th level, and every four levels gained thereafter as a blank monk, this bonus on attack rolls increases by +1 to maximum bonus of +5 at 20th level.
Starting at 12th level, a blank monks unarmed strikes overcome damage reduction as if they were a magic weapon with an enhancement bonus equal to the blank monk’s bonus from this ability. This stacks with any damage reduction bypass properties granted by ki strike.
Ki Assault replaces the Flurry of Blows ability of the monk.
Ki Pool: Replace the following sentence under the ki pool class ability, “By spending 1 point from his ki pool, a monk can make one additional attack at his highest attack bonus when making a flurry of blows attack” with the following. “By spending 1 point from his ki pool, a blank monk can make one unarmed strike attack against his opponents touch AC.”
Well, that's it . . . short and sweet. Let me know your thoughts.
MA
I actually thought about the Brawler property and the Body wraps, but the Body Wraps take up the Monk's Robe slot which increase his damage dice from 2d6 to 2d10. The Monk's Robe is, therefore, slightly vital to the build.
As for the Armor, while true, the Brawler property gives +2 to damage, it's not necessarily better than losing the 2 attack gained from Flurry and Ki. I mean, to trade 8 attacks that deal 8d8+21 for 6 attacks that deal 8d8+23 doesn't really add up to me. You're trading 105 potential points of damage (16d8+41) for 12 points of potential damage.
I have to run an errand, but when I get back, I'll comment on the Blank Monk.
[Edit] Also, his Falcon Punch can only be done up to 3 times per day, because he only has 18 Ki, however, he can still flurry like crazy in lieu of a Falcon Punch.
Personally, if I were running Captain Falcon, the Falcon Punch would be saved for BBEGs or emergencies.
If i'm reading it right Tels you could also add the drunken monk archetype and be able to charge up over 3 rounds some drunken ki for the attack.
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I believe, a long time ago, on a page far, far away in this thread, someone asked if anyone could break the Monk of the Four Winds ability Slow Time that allows for three Standard actions (and a move action).
So I think I finally did it to the best of my ability. I'm not going to do the full break down, just sum up the most important parts.
Key items are:
Monk's Robe
Wand of Animal Aspect - specifically the Gorilla Aspect
Wand of Lead BladesThis does require a 20 level build though. However, it's a 16th level Monk, 4th level Fighter so his BAb will be 16 and qualify for the right feat.
Feats:
Vital Strikes
Improved Vital Strike
Greater Vital StrikeSo, what does this all add up to? I'll break it down. At 16th level, the Monk has an unarmed strike of 2d8. However, this character has a Monk's Robe making his unarmed strike 2d10. Animal Aspect - Gorilla increases damage dice by one step, this is a Polymorph effect. Lead Blades also increases the damage dice by one step, this is simply a Transmutation effect though, so it stacks with Animal Aspect, at least as far as I am aware.
Now, I've heard because Enlarge Person increases your size, and Lead Blades treats your weapons as one size category larger, they don't stack because size increases don't stack, regardless of the source, so I won't be factoring that in. However, if they do stack, it just makes this set up 'more better' and one should...
I don't believe Lead Blades actually works on a monk, since it increases the weapon size, but only the Monk's actual size and level affect the damage of his UAS. Put another way, a monk has a specific progression of the damage he deals with UAS, that scales as he levels. If the Monk were to have Enlarge Person cast on him, he would use the progression for a large creature, but if the monk were to have a freakishly large arm grafted to his body, it wouldn't change the progression of his UAS, since he would still be a medium monk.
That's a valid point Ssalarn, but, to the best of my knowledge, there's never been a Huge or larger Monk. Because we don't know what a Huge Monk's Unarmed Strike damage deals, I decided to follow the Improved Natural Attack damage which is: 1d10 -> 2d8 -> 3d8 -> 4d8 -> 6d8 -> 8d8 -> 12d8.
When Captain Falcon casts Enlarge Person, he deals damage as a Large Monk, and then when he casts Lead Blades, he should deal damage as a Huge Monk, and then when he casts Animal Aspect, he deals damage as a Gargantuan Monk.
Since there's never been a Huge or Gargantuan Monk, they never bothered to publish numbers for a Monk's Unarmed Strike corresponding to those size categories. So without support for those size categories, I decided to do the logical thing, and follow the Natural Attack progression chart.
I know Hero Labs isn't Official Rules, but when I apply the spells, they increase the damage dice following the Natural Attack progression as well. But Hero Labs is the Official Character Creator of Pathfinder.
Besides, this is nothing more than a character idea for a possible NPC or even BBEG. It's a cool idea, but I wouldn't really let a character play Captain Falcon in a game, unless I really trusted them to not try and break the game with him, reserving the Falcon Punches for emergencies and stuff.
If i'm reading it right Tels you could also add the drunken monk archetype and be able to charge up over 3 rounds some drunken ki for the attack.
This is true, he also qualifies for the Ki Mystic Archetype. Ki Mystic was never clarified on what that second Ki Pool could be used for, so this is an option for him to keep making more Falcon Punches.
He could also take Qinggong Monk, and even if he keeps everything the same, except swapping out Diamond Soul for Ki Leech, it would be worth it. As a 0 Ki cost power, he could keep it active all the time, and anytime he drops a living enemy to 0 or fewer hit points, or confirms a critical on a living enemy he regains 1 Ki point.
The following is an exploit that shouldn't be used in game!
One of the things Captain Falcon could spend his excess 50,500 gp on is a Wand of Cure Light Wounds. Besides the obvious healing, he can abuse the wand in more subtle ways. Let's say he encounters a low level mook, he could drop him below 0 Hp, thereby regaining a Ki Point, and then the following round, cast Cure Light Wounds on the enemy. Now the enemy is above 0 HP again, so he raps him on the skull and drops him back below 0 HP, regaining another Ki Point. Repeat until you've recovered all Ki.
Exploit concluded, carry on.
I think Qinggong would be a great help for him as an archetype as it would allow him to fulfill that 'bounty hunter' persona from the video games. Trading out Slow Fall for Barkskin would only help his AC, High Jump for Gaseous Form would aid in his infiltration, Wholeness of Body for Share Memories would aid his investigation, and Diamond Soul for Ki Leech for recovery, or Shadow Step for further investigation.
I fully plan on incorporating some form of Captain Falcon into my games at a later date, but I'm not sure when I'll have the chance to do so.
It's definitely an interesting Archetype, Master Arminas, and a neat idea. It does remove a lot of the 'messed up' abilities of the Monk (fast movement, Flurry) leaving it with a more traditional melee class of weapons and armor.
One thing that concerns me, the Blank Monk will make GMs tear their hair out. If he takes Deflect Arrows and Crane Style feats... Someone will be getting angry. He'll be able to deflect two melee attacks in a round, and one ranged attack. By having a decent to good AC, a creatures third iterative attack is unlikely to hit with him deflecting the first two.
I foresee a "Rocks fall, the Monk dies" moment.
But I have Evasion...
ROCKS FALL, THE MONK DIES!
He's not supposed to be out damaging an equal level fighter, though I will admit, he potentially could at the high-end levels if enough of his attacks connect. At 9th level, he's more a striker and scout, working solo missions by himself. He needs to be able to hit hard enough to deal damage, but be able to get himself out of a sticky situation if stuff hits the fan.
Problem is that mosty adventures are in a party context, so a solo striker is not an ideal concept.
I think, for the most part, he could reasonably fill out that roll. He's not going to be hitting super hard. Not yet, but he'll be able to hit enough to draw attention to himself, which is what he wants to do.
He could certainly dish enough damage that will make an enemy notice him, I agree.
I just rolled up a 10th level version. When Enlarged, he's got an AC of 22, +15 on his attack and deals 4d8+8 points of damage and if he uses Elemental Fist, 2d6 (+4 if Fire damage).
When not Enlarged, his AC is 24 with a +15 attack bonus and deals 2d8+7 on a hit.
If he uses Vital Strike and tumbles away, he can deal 8d8+8 or 4d8+7 plus his Elemental Fist damage.
At 10th level, that's an awful AC especially when you have d8 hit dice. The attack bonus is decent, but not top of the range. The damage is very good, though.
This is, of course, assuming he manages to get two rounds to cast Lead Blades and Animal Aspect on himself.
...yes, and there's the crunch. Generally I find that most characters get a chance to have one buff up before they are wasting time, and that's usually in advance of the fight starting.
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personally i would love to see them change spring attack to allow vital strike, then add vital strike chain to the list of monk feats @6,10,14 . then just give monks a +1 to hit every 6 levels. seems like that would be a great (and quick) fix for monks, and rogues.
i think everyone would be happy at that point.
Unfortunately, the words "as if using Two-Weapon Fighting" disallow Flurry from being mixed with TWF feats.
The Flurry of Blows ability does not say, "as if using Two-Weapon Fighting." The ability says, "as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat." The tiny difference opens a new interpretation. Sticking with the TWF interpretation causes people to misread the tiny difference.
The 'may' refers to the Monks ability to make extra attacks. If he doesn't make the extra attacks, he doesn't gain the benefits of the flurry of blows' increased BAB. I think you're reading too much into the word 'may'.
Yes, the interpretation that overworks the word 'may' is not the intended method of using Flurry of Blows. If it had only one attack, it would not be called flurry.
The D&D 3rd Edition Flurry of Blows offered nothing except the extra attack and full Strength bonus on that extra attack. The Pathfinder Flurry of Blows offers that and full BAB. Presumably, the full BAB piggybacks on the extra attack. However, it is pretty clear that when the ability says, "For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus from his monk class levels is equal to his monk level," the phrase "these attacks" refers to the full-attack action, not the extra attack from TWF. Thus, we have a separation, which can be used to create a new interpretation in which the full BAB does not piggyback on the extra attack.
I am cataloging ambiguities. I am curious whether this one is valid enough to include in my list. To say that that is not the intended interpretation does not make it stop being an ambiguity.
It's definitely an interesting Archetype, Master Arminas, and a neat idea. It does remove a lot of the 'messed up' abilities of the Monk (fast movement, Flurry) leaving it with a more traditional melee class of weapons and armor.
One thing that concerns me, the Blank Monk will make GMs tear their hair out. If he takes Deflect Arrows and Crane Style feats... Someone will be getting angry. He'll be able to deflect two melee attacks in a round, and one ranged attack. By having a decent to good AC, a creatures third iterative attack is unlikely to hit with him deflecting the first two.
I foresee a "Rocks fall, the Monk dies" moment.
But I have Evasion...
ROCKS FALL, THE MONK DIES!
Make it so that it doesn't stack with Crane Style? Or that using Deflect Blows costs a point of ki?
Or something?
MA
So how was GenCon . . . or is it still going on?
MA
Let's be patient...and let them get on with things. I think we've moaned them out!
http://www.inc.com/minda-zetlin/listening-to-complainers-is-bad-for-your-br ain.html
Oh, I wasn't asking for a reply . . . I was simply asking how GenCon went! I am being patient.
MA
Well, let's see what happens before we pre-judge things. Put-downs on what they might do (but haven't actually done) is probably the biggest thing that has annoyed the Paizo staff who read these columns.
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It isn't a put down, it's a priority check.
This has been a hot button issue on the messageboard in one form or another since the release of Core. The flare ups appear over specific issues (Attack after dimension door, brass knuckles, FOB clarification) and each time there is something else on the front burner, and this is "to complicated" to do at the same time as something else.
The devs seem to think this is going to require a lot of time and I don't. They seem to think they need to block off a large chunk time between larger projects rather than this just being a "Hey guys, what do you think?" series of e-mails between the Devs that I think it is.
I have no idea what they think the issues are. I don't know if they agree on what the issues are, or if there are even agree that there are any issues at all, but I don't think this is so herculean a task that all other things must be put aside to deal with it. I don't think it's that complicated.
Allow players to enhance unarmed strike at a cost equivilent to two weapon fighting without sacrificing a slot, have a sandwich, tap a nap, declare victory!
Everything else people want is icing that complicates the core issue, IMHO.
So the fact they need to clear off huge blocks of time when nothing else is distracting them makes me think I am not on the same page as they are about the "problem" and that we may be getting major surgery when an aspirin would do.
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From what's been said recently, it'll be more of a bandaid than surgery.
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A band-aid could work, Krysbyn. There have been loads of options suggested that would resolve the issue very easily:
Enhancement Issue:
- Ki-strike delivers automatic enhancement to hit, around +1/4 levels; or
- Unarmed strike can be enhanced as a dual weapon; or
- Weapon-training style ability for monk weapons and unarmed strike only.
MAD Issue:
- Automatically grant the monk Weapon Finesse & Agile Maneuvers with monk weapons; or
- Allow monk weapons to gain Wisdom bonus to hit instead of strength or dexterity for unarmed strike/monk weapons.
DR Issue:
- Improve the ki-strike DR to include more types; or
- Use the automatic enhancement idea above to bypass DR as weapon enhancement; or
- Allow an additional use of ki to spend a point and then bypass all DR for one minute.
To add one of these fixes from each list would add 2-3 lines to the monk in total, and fix the three largest issues the monk class has.
As for the original flurry of blows, either:
- Just let it work the way everyone thought it did, it was hardly broken; or
- Work out a new FoB progression based on 3/4 BAB (I used one here that's pretty straight forward) and give the monk some kind of weapon training ability to make up the attack bonus to something credible both when they flurry and when they don't.
There are a few niggly issues, but these are the main ones that would resolve a LOT of issues.
Nice summation, Dabbler.
MA
Agreed. I'm glad I unhid the thread to check out what was happening now. I do find it curious that all but one the fixes are in an area the monk was never meant to excel in, but oh well.
I do have the hunch that you guys aren't going to be happy with the fix by the Design Team.
Agreed. I'm glad I unhid the thread to check out what was happening now. I do find it curious that all but one the fixes are in an area the monk was never meant to excel in, but oh well.
I do have the hunch that you guys aren't going to be happy with the fix by the Design Team.
You think we are expecting anything except disappointment?
MA
Agreed.
I didn't mean bandaid disparagingly. Just to say so that we keep our expectations at the appropriate level.
I also agree with most of the problems outlined here.
You left out "can take advantage of his high mobility in melee".
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I had this big long post typed up, but it would only be saying the exact same things that have been said a hundred times or more in this thread. Most everyone who posts or reads this thread recognizes the issues with the Monk, and we don't really need to be re-hashing the issue amongst each other. We're just preaching to the choir.
Suffice to say, I want my Monk to be useful to the party on the long term. He has a hard time being a skill monkey, a hard time being a melee class, and a hard time being a striker class, because he's expected to be all thee at the same time. To be a good skill monkey requires intelligence, to be a good striker requires good offense, to be a good melee class requires good offense and good defense.
You can mitigate somewhat by being a good at Combat Maneuvers, but this has a hard time working the higher in level you get. We all know this, which is why we don't generally plan for classes to focus on Maneuvers if it's going into the mid to high teens.
My biggest beef with the Monk, is how hard it is to play for new players. I've seen so many people read the Monk class and immediately want to play one, and when they get the chance, they are so disappointed because it just can't compete with other classes. The Monk is expected to be a jack of all trades, master of none, and so are other classes, but the other classes get major bonuses to allow them to do so. Bards, with their versatile performance, get skills up the whazoo and can further augment those skills with spells and performance. Rogues get tons of skills, and they also get a decent damage output via Sneak Attack. Inquisitors are just a fun class and offer awesome role-playing opportunities.
All three of those classes can operate as skill monkeys, and contribute significantly to melee. The Monk is simply good at being bait. Send him down the hallway, let him trigger the traps, because he's got the saves to resist them.
I don't like the fact that the role the Monk is best at, is Red Shirt Meatshield.
Agreed. I'm glad I unhid the thread to check out what was happening now. I do find it curious that all but one the fixes are in an area the monk was never meant to excel in, but oh well.
Well in all honesty the only thing the monk was NOT meant to do (according to the design team) was be a damage-dealer. The problem is that the monk is then nerfed or denied access to feast/items in all the ways that make him good at what he IS meant to be good at: using abilities like stunning fist and maneuvers. It isn't too much to ask that the monk be the best at unarmed combat, but they aren't.
To use stunning fist the monk has to HIT and DO DAMAGE. With lack of enhancement and MAD they cannot hit, and without enhancement or massive damage, they cannot get past DR if they do, making the ability all but useless (I took a monk to 8th level before landing my first successful stunning fist attack. From 1st level, in an adventure path). Hence I look to ways of granting enhancement, bypassing MAD, in order to let the monk hit. I look at ways of bypassing DR other than massive damage to keep the monk relevant.
I do have the hunch that you guys aren't going to be happy with the fix by the Design Team.
Well if people keep up with the moaning talk and negativity based on what the devs MIGHT do, the devs will never read the threads where we lay out what we think the monk's problems are, and never understand our point of view, so if I'm disappointed I'll blame first everyone who slagged them off before they even published any changes.
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Hell, I felt the need the apologize on behalf of monk fans when I ran into SKR at GenCon.
I want the monk to be good. I want the monk to be easier to play well. I want monks to be less of a headache to make feel like a monk and be good at it. But that isn't helped by keeping up a pestering assault 24/7.
Hell, I felt the need the apologize on behalf of monk fans when I ran into SKR at GenCon.
I want the monk to be good. I want the monk to be easier to play well. I want monks to be less of a headache to make feel like a monk and be good at it. But that isn't helped by keeping up a pestering assault 24/7.
I know the feeling! I also know I haven't been perfect myself but some people seem to gravitate here just to tell us how disappointed we will be and how the devs will never fix anything to our satisfaction...seriously guys, don't you know that listening to complainers is bad for your brain? All this negativity is just going to encourage a bad result, not a good one. If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all.