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I like that idea, Axl! Well done. But the only problem would arise in the class outshing full-martials at low levels (say 3-4). Perhaps something like . . .
Monastic Offensive (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, when wearing no armor and not using a shield, a monk may add 1 point of his Wisdom bonus (if any) per every 2 monk class levels he possesses to his attack rolls with unarmed strikes.
I removed the monk special weapons and damage because it is easy to get enchancement bonus to weapons and a monk really doesn't need to add any additional damage, but something to help him hit.
MA
Calmly folks. I know that SKR is upset, but we need to keep our cool if we want this thread to stay open. Let's keep our vitriol in check and stay on the issue, shall we?
MA
Personally, I don't see anything wrong, really, with letting Monks use Wisdom to hit (but not damage) with unarmed strikes only. If a Druid or Cleric really wanted to dip Monk for it, they'd be left with a 1d3 weapon that still gets strength to damage. The only one that would really benefit is a pure Monk.
If Flurry BAB is based ONLY on Monk levels, not those of other classes, Dragonamedrake . . . yeah, I could go for that. Stopping those dippers HARD we will. :)
MA
Well the way I understand it from the FAQ....
A Fighter 19/Monk 1 who flurried would only get +18/+18... just two attacks. Not really worth a dip.
Why would they only get those two attacks? Flurry is a full attack action with extra attacks from Twf so they would actually have a string of +18/+18/+13/+8/+3
I like the Stunning Fist as a touch attack idea suggested above, or even just as an option ("As a standard action... touch attack, or as part of an attack but only if the attack hits..."). Very reminiscent of those Wuxia "touch of death" abilities and mystic pressure points of ki warpage.
I also believe flurry should eventually become a standard action when you're at high level at the cost of ki points (perhaps 3) and, honestly, change the list to overcome DR to reflect magic, silver, cold iron, adamantine and finally alignment at appropriate levels, under the same conditions as the current write-up or at least allow the option as a swift action by spending a ki point or two.
Whenever I get the urge to play a monk, I get the urge to play someone that doesn't rely on magical trinkets to be totally badass, I expect the monk to just BE totally badass and the magic items just enhance that. Not a DPR king, but at least someone you can see walking out of a Wuxia film, where they usually just have an item or two that is legendary, if that.
Btw I started a Thread on some Feats i've been working for unarmed combatents. It's here if people could look and comment.
So far, the best idea for a monk-friendly equipment in this thread, IMHO, is Master Arminas' idea of a "AoMF" that only effected Unarmed Strikes (not Natural Weapons) whose bonus only applies to attack rolls, since devs insist AoMF must not be made obsolete
An idea I find kinda funny. Even if monks didn't use it, druids (who usually buy matching sets!), rangers (specially of the Natural Weapo combat style), summoners, clerics and inquisitors with the animal/feather domain would still find it very valuable, but okay)
Monks have a problem with precision and a problem with mobility (or at least, mobility+usefulness in the same round).
Would something like a Robe of Protection. I dunno, a robe made of a mystical silk or very thin strands of metal, that granted an armor bonus be too much?
Would "Gloves of Mighty Fists" that gives a bonus to attack rolls only and costed as much as a magical weapon (that grants a bonus to both attzck and damage) obsolete AoMF?
Those are two items that I believe could've been added to Ultimate Equipment without any risk of making AoMF pointless.
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Personally, I don't see anything wrong, really, with letting Monks use Wisdom to hit (but not damage) with unarmed strikes only. If a Druid or Cleric really wanted to dip Monk for it, they'd be left with a 1d3 weapon that still gets strength to damage. The only one that would really benefit is a pure Monk.
This could be reasonable, but I would wonder about interactions and unintended consequences.
My concern is that the new wrap item and the AoMF make adding anything to the base monk build to improved unarmed strike attack bonus problematic.
If the solution isn't an item (and I think it is, in the same way you increase a fighters ability to hit and do damage by given him a sword with enhancement bonuses...) then it is a modification. However the modification approach is made more problematic because of the items stacking...good old catch 22 comes into play.
The Devs are really good at what they do. I don't pay money for the product because I think they suck at what they do. With minor exceptions (cough, gunslinger, cough) I've been very impressed. I think the inquisitor for may be the best mechanically designed class written for the game.
But corner they seem to be painting themselves into gets more narrow when you add more items that are just as problematic as the AoMF.
And I still don't know what they think the problem is. I wouldn't be surprised if some of them don't think there is an actual problem with the class other than just wanting to find a way to get people to stop complaining about the problems of the class.
And if they just repeal the flurry ruling and call it a day, I will think it is the later.
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So far, the best idea for a monk-friendly equipment in this thread, IMHO, is Master Arminas' idea of a "AoMF" that only effected Unarmed Strikes (not Natural Weapons) whose bonus only applies to attack rolls, since devs insist AoMF must not be made obsolete
An idea I find kinda funny. Even if monks didn't use it, druids (who usually buy matching sets!), rangers (specially of the Natural Weapo combat style), summoners, clerics and inquisitors with the animal/feather domain would still find it very valuable, but okay)
Monks have a problem with precision and a problem with mobility (or at least, mobility+usefulness in the same round).
Would something like a Robe of Protection. I dunno, a robe made of a mystical silk or very thin strands of metal, that granted an armor bonus be too much?
Would "Gloves of Mighty Fists" that gives a bonus to attack rolls only and costed as much as a magical weapon (that grants a bonus to both attzck and damage) obsolete AoMF?
Those are two items that I believe could've been added to Ultimate Equipment without any risk of making AoMF pointless.
I though that was my idea? :)
I still don't losing the slot, but it would at least be something.
But again, if not an item solution it gets more complicated.
So far, the best idea for a monk-friendly equipment in this thread, IMHO, is Master Arminas' idea of a "AoMF" that only effected Unarmed Strikes (not Natural Weapons) whose bonus only applies to attack rolls, since devs insist AoMF must not be made obsolete
An idea I find kinda funny. Even if monks didn't use it, druids (who usually buy matching sets!), rangers (specially of the Natural Weapo combat style), summoners, clerics and inquisitors with the animal/feather domain would still find it very valuable, but okay)
Monks have a problem with precision and a problem with mobility (or at least, mobility+usefulness in the same round).
Would something like a Robe of Protection. I dunno, a robe made of a mystical silk or very thin strands of metal, that granted an armor bonus be too much?
Would "Gloves of Mighty Fists" that gives a bonus to attack rolls only and costed as much as a magical weapon (that grants a bonus to both attzck and damage) obsolete AoMF?
Those are two items that I believe could've been added to Ultimate Equipment without any risk of making AoMF pointless.
I though that was my idea? :)
I still don't losing the slot, but it would at least be something.
But again, if not an item solution it gets more complicated.
Sorry, it's been a while since I read the post. For some reason I thought it was Master Arminas'. My mistake.
So far, the best idea for a monk-friendly equipment in this thread, IMHO, is ciretose's idea...
There you go...
It's been mentioned by multiple people, multiple times. It's no one's idea as much as it is everyone's idea.
A Cleric or Druid would still only get 2 attacks from a Dip in Monk...It's not the flurry, it's the "add Wisdom Bonus to attack and damage" they are dipping for. CoDzilla got toned down in Pathfinder, let's not give him a power-up.
Did you miss the part where he only adds Wisdom hit and damage while using Flurry and only with Unarmed/Monk weapons? CODzilla isn't running around punching someone twice.
Personally, I don't see anything wrong, really, with letting Monks use Wisdom to hit (but not damage) with unarmed strikes only. If a Druid or Cleric really wanted to dip Monk for it, they'd be left with a 1d3 weapon that still gets strength to damage. The only one that would really benefit is a pure Monk.This could be reasonable, but I would wonder about interactions and unintended consequences.
My concern is that the new wrap item and the AoMF make adding anything to the base monk build to improved unarmed strike attack bonus problematic.
If the solution isn't an item (and I think it is, in the same way you increase a fighters ability to hit and do damage by given him a sword with enhancement bonuses...) then it is a modification. However the modification approach is made more problematic because of the items stacking...good old catch 22 comes into play.
The Devs are really good at what they do. I don't pay money for the product because I think they suck at what they do. With minor exceptions (cough, gunslinger, cough) I've been very impressed. I think the inquisitor for may be the best mechanically designed class written for the game.
But corner they seem to be painting themselves into gets more narrow when you add more items that are just as problematic as the AoMF.
And I still don't know what they think the problem is. I wouldn't be surprised if some of them don't think there is an actual problem with the class other than just wanting to find a way to get people to stop complaining about the problems of the class.
And if they just repeal the flurry ruling and call it a day, I will think it is the later.
I don't really see that happening. All you're really doing is giving the Monk an built in ability that replaces Strength for it's attack bonus with Wsidom, similiar to Weapon Finesse replacing Strength for Dexterity.
It doesn't increase is Damage bonus, as that's still tied to Strength. It allows the Monk to hit more often as he can rely on Wisdom for his attack roles.
It doesn't solve the enhancement bonus problem, or the DR problem that Monks face. But it does make Stunning Fist more useful as the Monk is more likely to hit, and, by concentrating on Wisdom as an attribute, his Stunnig Fist will have a higher DC (plus be likely to hit and not be wasted as well).
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One problem with adding in a built in mechanic for overcoming DR (such as by using Ki) is it steps on the Martial Artist archetype's toes. Granted, Paizo hasn't ever been shy of taking class abilities and turning them into feats or giving them to other classes via archetypes, but it's something I tend to frown on personally.
Did you miss the part where he only adds Wisdom hit and damage while using Flurry and only with Unarmed/Monk weapons? CODzilla isn't running around punching someone twice.A Cleric or Druid would still only get 2 attacks from a Dip in Monk...It's not the flurry, it's the "add Wisdom Bonus to attack and damage" they are dipping for. CoDzilla got toned down in Pathfinder, let's not give him a power-up.
What's CODzilla? I'm guessing Cleric of Death, but how is that an OP class?
Cleric or Druid zilla. If i understand it correctly its a referance to the absolute power and destructiviness of those classes in 3.5.
Why would they only get those two attacks? Flurry is a full attack action with extra attacks from Twf so they would actually have a string of +18/+18/+13/+8/+3If Flurry BAB is based ONLY on Monk levels, not those of other classes, Dragonamedrake . . . yeah, I could go for that. Stopping those dippers HARD we will. :)
MA
Well the way I understand it from the FAQ....
A Fighter 19/Monk 1 who flurried would only get +18/+18... just two attacks. Not really worth a dip.
This is incorrect from what I understand. Your Flurry never improves unless your monk level goes up.
A monk using flurry treats his BAB from monk levels as equal to his monk level. He still adds BAB from other sources (such as other classes or racial Hit Dice) normally to this total.
So a fighter 19/monk 1 has a normal BAB of +19. When he flurries, he treats his monk BAB as +1 (for his 1 level of monk) and still gets BAB +19 from his fighter levels, for a total flurry BAB of +20.
However he still only gets two attacks with his flurry at +18/+18
A cleric 19/Monk 1 would have a BAB of +14 (+15 with flurry) and would flurry at a +13/+13.
The additonal attack from flurry don't go up but you still maintain your attacks gained from your High BaB.
Flurry grants one attack at 1 on at 8 and one at 15. The other attacks that appear at 6 ll and 16 are from the BaB used during flurry.
The additonal attack from flurry don't go up but you still maintain your attacks gained from your High BaB.
Flurry grants one attack at 1 on at 8 and one at 15. The other attacks that appear at 6 ll and 16 are from the BaB used during flurry.
If that's how it works (probably does... Im no expert on monks) then I retract my earlier statement.
See this is the whole issue I have with Flurry. Its just a clunky mechanic. Make it a separate attack that doesn't progress unless you have monk levels and it solves all the Cleric/Druid dipping.
Then my suggestion works. Give Wis to hit/damage when using Flurry and unless you stay monk you really only get a benefit if your a straight monk.
Even with your bonus the cleric/druid is still only working with 1 extra 1d6+wis attack. that gives them 4 of those for that one level dip they can't wear armor when doing it.
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So let me see if I have this down. If a monk pulls off a flurry, and he is holding a +3 monk weapon, do all of his attacks...
Use that weapons to hit modifiers (assuming they are better than unarmed)?
default to that weapon with regards to damage?
add 1.5x str bonus when used 2 handed?
use the weapons to hit bonuses then revert to monk unarmed damage?
Ignore the +3 monk weapon all together and only act as a trapping for the monk simply rolling to hit and damage as if unarmed?
So let me see if I have this down. If a monk pulls off a flurry, and he is holding a +3 monk weapon, do all of his attacks...
Lets brak this down As far as all of the attacks that will have to wait till after Gen con.
Use that weapons to hit modifiers (assuming they are better than unarmed)?
Attacks made with the weapon do unarmed attacks do not.
default to that weapon with regards to damage?
Only attacks made with that weapon use its damage.
add 1.5x str bonus when used 2 handed?
No even 2h attacks only deal full str bonus.
use the weapons to hit bonuses then revert to monk unarmed damage?
Never if you use a weapon you use its damage
Ignore the +3 monk weapon all together and only act as a trapping for the monk simply rolling to hit and damage as if unarmed?
Not sure what your asking either your attacking with it or not.
If I am following you, Indivar:
A 11th monk with a +3 kama (for example, 11th level was chosen because that is the minimum level you can actually afford a +3 weapon) has a flurry attack of +9/+9/+4/+4/-1. His normal BAB is +8/+3. Let's say he has an 18 strength, for a +4 bonus.
That means his attacks (with the +3 kama) are at +16/+16/+11/+11/+6 when he uses flurry of blows and +15/+10 when he doesn't.
BUT! With flurry of two-weapon fighting, he can't make all of those attacks with his kama. At least two have come from unarmed strikes or another monk weapon. So that is +16/+11/+6 (+3 kama) and +13/+8 (unarmed strikes).
His kama does 1d6+7 damage (20/x2) and his unarmed strikes do 1d10+4 damage (20/x2).
Unfortunately, when a monk uses a weapon, he keeps the weapon damage and not his higher unarmed strike damage.
Now, he could instead buy an amulet of mighty fists, but he could only afford a +2 version. That would let him attack at +15/+15/+10/+10/+5 with his flurry of blows (+14/+9 otherwise) for 1d10+6 (20/x2) damage each.
Your average CR 11 critter is going to have an AC of around 25 with 145 hit points. He is going to have attack bonus of between +19 (primary) and +14 (secondary) and deal somewhere between 37-50 points of damage per hit.
Your monk is probably not going to have a Con over 14 and will be lucky to have 86 hit points (if he puts his favored class bonus into HP).
And this is supposed to be an AVERAGE encounter for an 11th level character. Something he should be able to solo.
Master Arminas
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Here are some of my ideas that i think would be balanced and small tweaks to monk to make it shine.
-Replace "AC Bonus"
"Ki Bonus"
When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds his Wisdom bonus (if any) to his AC and his CMD. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC, attack rolls, and CMD at 3rd level. This bonus increases by 1 for every four monk levels thereafter, up to a maximum of +5 at 19th level.
-Reword "Flurry of Blows"
Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus from his monk class levels is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus. Flurry of blows cannot be combined with Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, or Greater Two-Weapon Fighting.
At 1st level a monk can make an additional attack using either an unarmed strike or a weapon with the monk special weapon feature while using flurry of blows.
At 6th level a monk can make two additional attacks using either an unarmed strike or a weapon with the monk special weapon feature while using flurry of blows.
At 11th level a monk can make three additional attacks using either an unarmed strike or a weapon with the monk special weapon feature while using flurry of blows.
At 16th level a monk can make four additional attacks using either an unarmed strike or a weapon with the monk special weapon feature while using flurry of blows.
A monk applies his strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, regardless of whether the weapon is wielded in one or two hands. A monk may substitute bull rush, disarm, reposition, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of a flurry of blows. A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a weapon with the monk special feature as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.
- Change Bonus Feat
At 1st level, 2nd level, and every 4 levels thereafter, a monk may select a bonus feat. These feats must be taken from the following list:
Catch Off-Guard, Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Improved Grapple, Scorpion Style, and Throw Anything.
At 6th level, the following feats are added to the list:
Gorgon's Fist, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Reposition, Improved Sunder, Improved Trip, and Mobility.
At 10th level, the following feats are added to the list:
Improved Critical, Medusa's Wrath, Snatch Arrows, and Spring Attack.
A monk need not have any of the prerequistes normally required for these feats to select them.
- Change Ki Pool
At 4th level, a monk gains a pool of Ki points, supernatural energy he can use to accomplish amazing feats. The number of points in a monk's Ki pool is equal to his monk level + his Wisdom modifier. As long as he has at least 1 point in his Ki pool, he can make a Ki strike.
By spending 1 point from his Ki pool, a monk can do one of the following:
- Make one additional attack at his highest attack bonus when making a flurry of blows attack, or
-increase his speed by 20 feet for 1 round, or
-give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round.
By spending 2 points from his Ki pool, a monk can do one of the following:
-Make an additional attack at his highest attack bonus when moving at least 10 feet during the round, or
-give himself a +2 bonus to attack rolls when making a flurry of blows attack.
Each of these powers is activated as a swift action. A monk gains additional powers that consume points from his Ki pool as he gains levels.
- At 4th level, Ki strike allows his unarmed attacks to be treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Ki strike improves with a character's monk level.
- At 8th level, his unarmed attacks are treated as lawful weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
- At 12th level, his unarmed attacks are treated as adamantine weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
The Ki pool is replenished each morning after 8 hours of rest or meditation; these hours do not need to be consecutive.
- Change "Wholeness of Body"
At 7th level or higher, a monk can heal his own wounds as a swift action. He can heal a number of hit points of damage equal to his monk level + Wisdom modifier by using 2 points from his Ki pool.
- Change "Diamond Soul"
At 13th level, a monk can steady his soul against magic as a move action. He can gain spell resistance equal to his current monk level +10 for a number of rounds equal to his Wisdom modifier by using 2 points from his Ki pool. In order to affect the monk with a spell, , a spellcaster must get a result on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) that equals or exceeds the monk's spell resistance.
Did you miss the part where he only adds Wisdom hit and damage while using Flurry and only with Unarmed/Monk weapons? CODzilla isn't running around punching someone twice.A Cleric or Druid would still only get 2 attacks from a Dip in Monk...It's not the flurry, it's the "add Wisdom Bonus to attack and damage" they are dipping for. CoDzilla got toned down in Pathfinder, let's not give him a power-up.
I did, but that would make it a worse idea because then it exacerbates problems with the monk's mobility and attacks of opportunity etc. which are now on 3/4 BAB still AND don't gain the benefits of the wisdom bonus. Flurry-of-blows becomes even more awesome at the expense of everything else - not a solution.
Personally, I don't see anything wrong, really, with letting Monks use Wisdom to hit (but not damage) with unarmed strikes only. If a Druid or Cleric really wanted to dip Monk for it, they'd be left with a 1d3 weapon that still gets strength to damage. The only one that would really benefit is a pure Monk.
If it applied only to unarmed strikes & monk weapons - and maneuvers - I can see it working. Although as I said before, a Zen Archer/Cleric of Erastil would be a nasty combo, at least he would only be getting awesome accuracy rather than awesome damage and accuracy. It's usefulness is limited to any other class.
Certainly no different to allowing the monk Weapon Finesse & Agile Maneuvers, and thematically better. It makes Wisdom the go-for-it stat for monks which isn't a bad thing.
So that one ticks one MAD box, but still leaves the monk a bit behind in accuracy thanks to the AoMF. Master Arminas' idea for a fighter-style weapon training ability that adds a bonus to hit only would fill in for the accuracy question.
Then the DR issue:
- spend one ki-point as a swift action, and all unarmed attacks (or attacks with a ki-focussed weapon) on the designated target for ignore any damage resistance it may have for the duration of the ability. This ability lasts for one round per level, and only applies to one target at a time. If the monk switches targets he loses the benefit of this against the new target even if it is identical to the original, and must pay another ki-point to affect the new target, at which point he loses all benefits to attacking the original target.
Personally, I don't see anything wrong, really, with letting Monks use Wisdom to hit (but not damage) with unarmed strikes only. If a Druid or Cleric really wanted to dip Monk for it, they'd be left with a 1d3 weapon that still gets strength to damage. The only one that would really benefit is a pure Monk.If it applied only to unarmed strikes & monk weapons - and maneuvers - I can see it working. Although as I said before, a Zen Archer/Cleric of Erastil would be a nasty combo, at least he would only be getting awesome accuracy rather than awesome damage and accuracy. It's usefulness is limited to any other class.
Certainly no different to allowing the monk Weapon Finesse & Agile Maneuvers, and thematically better. It makes Wisdom the go-for-it stat for monks which isn't a bad thing.
Actually, I was thinking only allowing Wisdom to hit with only unarmed strikes. The whole intention was to cut out weapons specifically to stop other classes from dipping Monk for bonuses to hit. If you limit it to unarmed strikes, a Cleric that dips Monk is going to be stuck with a 1d6 20x2 weapon. Not all that great and he'll have the same problems with DR and enhancement a Monk will. Smae thing goes for a Druid, as the Wisdom to hit won't count for natural attacks, only unarmed strikes.
Remember, Wisdom bonus to Attack only, not damage, and for unarmed strikes only, no other weapons.
So that one ticks one MAD box, but still leaves the monk a bit behind in accuracy thanks to the AoMF. Master Arminas' idea for a fighter-style weapon training ability that adds a bonus to hit only would fill in for the accuracy question.
Then the DR issue:
- spend one ki-point as a swift action, and all unarmed attacks (or attacks with a ki-focussed weapon) on the designated target for ignore any damage resistance it may have for the duration of the ability. This ability lasts for one round per level, and only applies to one target at a time. If the monk switches targets he loses the benefit of this against the new target even if it is identical to the original, and must pay another ki-point to affect the new target, at which point he loses all benefits to attacking the original target.
Actually, there shouldn't be any reason why spending Ki stops the DR penetration of previous targets, nor should switching targets matter. If a 10th level Monk spends Ki to overcome a Golem's DR, then it should last for 10 rounds, whether he's fighting that particular Golem or not. If he's not fighting that Golem, then those are rounds wasted. The Monk shouldn't be penalzied because the Golem is fighting in a narrow hallway, and switches places with another Golem (at the controller's command) and thereby forcing him to lose his DR penetration.
In the same vein, the Monk would be fine with allowing him to spend Ki each round to penetrate a different taregets DR. Maybe he's setting up for a Whirlwind, or he'll be splitting his attacks between the two targets. It's not like he's going to be doing a huge amount of damage anyway, it's not going to make him overpowered.
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Here's a thought, what about a built in mechanic that allows the Monk to automatically overcome an amount of hardness/DR equal to his Wisdom modifier? Doesn't completely negate DR, but it lessens it by an amount that would allow a Monk to actually do something. Maybe a swift action Ki point allows him to double the DR he can overcome for a number of rounds equal to his Monk level?
I kinda like that idea. Doesn't make him super-powered, it doesn't really step on any archetype's toes, and lets him deal with DR in a unique way.
For clarification, a +5 wisdom would allow him to ignore the first 5 points of DR or Hardness. Might have to limit it to Monk Weapons and Unarmed Strikes though.
It's been mentioned by multiple people, multiple times. It's no one's idea as much as it is everyone's idea.No one noticed the smiley face?
Sarcasm...
I actually didn't see the smiley face.
Also, Sarcasm doesn't translate well.
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Actually, I was thinking only allowing Wisdom to hit with only unarmed strikes. The whole intention was to cut out weapons specifically to stop other classes from dipping Monk for bonuses to hit. If you limit it to unarmed strikes, a Cleric that dips Monk is going to be stuck with a 1d6 20x2 weapon. Not all that great and he'll have the same problems with DR and enhancement a Monk will. Smae thing goes for a Druid, as the Wisdom to hit won't count for natural attacks, only unarmed strikes.
Remember, Wisdom bonus to Attack only, not damage, and for unarmed strikes only, no other weapons.
I think this has some possibilities, especially if the the acquisition of Wisdom bonuses is spread out and not gained in one lump sum, like this perhaps?
Monastic Offensive (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, when wearing no armor and not using a shield, a monk may add 1 point of his Wisdom bonus (if any) per every 2 monk class levels he possesses to his attack rolls with unarmed strikes.
This could go pretty far in leveling up the playing field.
MA
Personally, I don't see anything wrong, really, with letting Monks use Wisdom to hit (but not damage) with unarmed strikes only. If a Druid or Cleric really wanted to dip Monk for it, they'd be left with a 1d3 weapon that still gets strength to damage. The only one that would really benefit is a pure Monk.If it applied only to unarmed strikes & monk weapons - and maneuvers - I can see it working. Although as I said before, a Zen Archer/Cleric of Erastil would be a nasty combo, at least he would only be getting awesome accuracy rather than awesome damage and accuracy. It's usefulness is limited to any other class.
Certainly no different to allowing the monk Weapon Finesse & Agile Maneuvers, and thematically better. It makes Wisdom the go-for-it stat for monks which isn't a bad thing.
Actually, I was thinking only allowing Wisdom to hit with only unarmed strikes. The whole intention was to cut out weapons specifically to stop other classes from dipping Monk for bonuses to hit. If you limit it to unarmed strikes, a Cleric that dips Monk is going to be stuck with a 1d6 20x2 weapon. Not all that great and he'll have the same problems with DR and enhancement a Monk will. Smae thing goes for a Druid, as the Wisdom to hit won't count for natural attacks, only unarmed strikes.
Remember, Wisdom bonus to Attack only, not damage, and for unarmed strikes only, no other weapons.
Except this - and Master Arminas' solution - then leaves the monks who choose to specialise in weapons out in the cold now, yet both amred and unarmed monks suffer from being the MAD this is meant to fix. I want an answer for both, not one and not the other, because that still leaves us with a problem.
A bonus with monk weapons only isn't a major problem if the only opportunity to make a decent weapon into a monk weapon is reserved at higher monk level. Otherwise what can they use that makes them broken?
And that is a fair point. But it is easier to get enhancement bonus on weapons than on unarmed strikes, and this (the ability to use your more and more of your Wisdom bonus on attack rolls on a sliding scale) offsets (to some degree) the difficulty in getting those bonuses with unarmed strikes. Still, you are correct that it probably should apply to unarmed and weapon strikes, as long as it is is not available in a single lump sum dip at 1st or 2nd level, and that it applies to attacks only (not damage).
So, it reduces the number to pump Strength, but doesn't allow you to dump it. To my mind that is perfect. Monks will becomer wiser and more agile, not nearly so muscle-bound, and while they can close the . . . let's call it the to-hit roll gap somewhat, it does not threaten full-BAB martial classes and their ability to deal more damage.
There are bugs to be worked out, certainly, but it is an idea that should be explored. In a way, it is more elegant than just giving the monk's their own version of fighter weapon training and it would be something almost unique to the monk class. And by 12th level or so, being able to add a stacking +5 or +6 bonus on attack rolls; well that goes a long way to making up for some of the classes short-comings.
In fact, it might be necessary to change it to add 1 point of Wisdom bonus per 3 monk class levels, but it will have to play-tested to find out if it is too much, too little, or just right.
MA
It's been mentioned by multiple people, multiple times. It's no one's idea as much as it is everyone's idea.No one noticed the smiley face?
Sarcasm...
Not a problem. I don't care about getting credit for an idea, I just want to see a good, solid monk class emerge from Pathfinder.
MA
And that is a fair point. But it is easier to get enhancement bonus on weapons than on unarmed strikes, and this (the ability to use your more and more of your Wisdom bonus on attack rolls on a sliding scale) offsets (to some degree) the difficulty in getting those bonuses with unarmed strikes. Still, you are correct that it probably should apply to unarmed and weapon strikes, as long as it is is not available in a single lump sum dip at 1st or 2nd level, and that it applies to attacks only (not damage).
Problem is, if it isn't available at 1st level, you have left the monk at this level at a potentially massive disadvantage. Say he pumps dexterity and wisdom at the expense of strength, then he has a choice: Lose out on +2-4 to hit or take Weapon Finesse and have it useful for only a level or two before it becomes a totally redundant feat.
Whether or not the armed monk has it easier depends on the flurry-of-blows ruling. It may be the armed monk has only a slight advantage in funding compared to the unarmed. Personally, I'd like to see flurry divorced from TWF all together, and the 3/4/full BAB issue settled as one or the other.
So, it reduces the number to pump Strength, but doesn't allow you to dump it. To my mind that is perfect. Monks will becomer wiser and more agile, not nearly so muscle-bound, and while they can close the . . . let's call it the to-hit roll gap somewhat, it does not threaten full-BAB martial classes and their ability to deal more damage.
I agree, it's good for reducing MAD. However, it's not perfect for reducing the 'to hit gap' completely. What I would like to see is the monk able to hit as accurately - perhaps more so - than the full BAB classes. I don't want to see more damage - in fact as things stand I would see rather less - but I want those strikes to land.
Therefore - especially if the flurry resolves to a 3/4 BAB system again - I'd like to see the 'weapon training' bonus to hit arrive in some for as well.
The only other option I can see closing the gap is automatic enhancement to the unarmed strike - again it can be enhancement to hit only, and should stack with the AoMF's enhancement to damage and special properties.
I do maintain that the 'bypass DR' option should be included in the uses of ki. There are only two ways otherwise of bypassing DR, enhanced weapons (hard for the monk) and raw damage (which the devs do not want the monk to have) and if these are excluded, the monk needs another option to be viable.
There are bugs to be worked out, certainly, but it is an idea that should be explored. In a way, it is more elegant than just giving the monk's their own version of fighter weapon training and it would be something almost unique to the monk class. And by 12th level or so, being able to add a stacking +5 or +6 bonus on attack rolls; well that goes a long way to making up for some of the classes short-comings.
In fact, it might be necessary to change it to add 1 point of Wisdom bonus per 3 monk class levels, but it will have to play-tested to find out if it is too much, too little, or just right.
I don't think a wisdom boost for the monk is either necessary or desirable, and I don't think that the developers would go for it.
You know, I was looking over my 1st edition AD&D Player's Handbook again. And something in there just leaped right out at me. That first monk ONLY got iterative attacks with his open-hand combat, i.e., what Gary Gygax called unarmed strikes back in the day.
With weapons, they got the same number of attacks a round as a cleric, a thief, a druid, an assassin, or a magic-user: ONE. Now, that old-style monk also got a damage bonus when using weapons equal to one-half his monk level. AND, there was no difference between standing still and moving; you got your full attacks either way.
Maybe, flurry of blows should apply only to unarmed strikes, not weapons, after all. That would disconnet the weapons from flurry as TWF, and . . . well, I'm not sure what. But I am thinking more and more we need to go back and look at what makes a monk a monk.
Forget all the stuff from 3.0 and 3.5 and Pathfinder; go back to the start of the game and look at the monk that Gygax made and the update made in Dragon and ask ourselves what do we want in a monk class?
Master Arminas
You know, I was looking over my 1st edition AD&D Player's Handbook again. And something in there just leaped right out at me. That first monk ONLY got iterative attacks with his open-hand combat, i.e., what Gary Gygax called unarmed strikes back in the day.
With weapons, they got the same number of attacks a round as a cleric, a thief, a druid, an assassin, or a magic-user: ONE. Now, that old-style monk also got a damage bonus when using weapons equal to one-half his monk level. AND, there was no difference between standing still and moving; you got your full attacks either way.
Maybe, flurry of blows should apply only to unarmed strikes, not weapons, after all. That would disconnet the weapons from flurry as TWF, and . . . well, I'm not sure what. But I am thinking more and more we need to go back and look at what makes a monk a monk.
Forget all the stuff from 3.0 and 3.5 and Pathfinder; go back to the start of the game and look at the monk that Gygax made and the update made in Dragon and ask ourselves what do we want in a monk class?
Master Arminas
Yeah because everything was soooo much better back then.
Once again, this would cripple existing weapon-themed monk builds, so it's a non-starter.
We know what Paizo will want:
- The monk needs to work both armed and unarmed.
- He needs to work from level 1 to level 20.
- He is NOT getting a boost to damage output.
- Items are not fixes.
- One-level dips should be discouraged if we can.
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It's been mentioned by multiple people, multiple times. It's no one's idea as much as it is everyone's idea.No one noticed the smiley face?
Sarcasm...
I actually didn't see the smiley face.
Also, Sarcasm doesn't translate well.
From now on, this will be the tag for saracasm
(S)
I think this will clear up all confusion (S)
Yeah because everything was soooo much better back then.You know, I was looking over my 1st edition AD&D Player's Handbook again. And something in there just leaped right out at me. That first monk ONLY got iterative attacks with his open-hand combat, i.e., what Gary Gygax called unarmed strikes back in the day.
With weapons, they got the same number of attacks a round as a cleric, a thief, a druid, an assassin, or a magic-user: ONE. Now, that old-style monk also got a damage bonus when using weapons equal to one-half his monk level. AND, there was no difference between standing still and moving; you got your full attacks either way.
Maybe, flurry of blows should apply only to unarmed strikes, not weapons, after all. That would disconnet the weapons from flurry as TWF, and . . . well, I'm not sure what. But I am thinking more and more we need to go back and look at what makes a monk a monk.
Forget all the stuff from 3.0 and 3.5 and Pathfinder; go back to the start of the game and look at the monk that Gygax made and the update made in Dragon and ask ourselves what do we want in a monk class?
Master Arminas
I am not saying to just go back to 1st edition entirely, B.in.a.Jar! But I think that the original monk was more focused on unarmed combat to the point where it had a role; perhaps we need to look at that original class again and ask how can we translate the monk-as-a-unarmed combat-machine into Pathfinder in a way that remains true to the roots and base and tradition (gaming, film, television, and literature) of the concept of monk.
A lot of people today have absolutely NO experience with the original monk of AD&D; their ideas are based on 3.0, 3.5, 4th edition, Pathfinder, and Neverwinter Nights! Some folks would be down-right shocked into silence by the idea that a class could be limited to less than a dozen magical items (three of which were magic weapons) with all excess wealth having to be given over to your monastery! If they didn't faint from apolexy, that is!
The problem with the concept of the monk class itself is that it lacks focus. It doesn't seem to know what it wants to do. Is it a fast moving skirmisher who makes hit-and-run attacks? Then why have flurry of blows? Is it a master of maneuvers? Then why aren't the greater maneuver feats on his bonus feat list? Is it an unarmed combat specialist? Then whey are using weapons more effective? Is it a scout? Is it a pure defensive class can usually save against everything and always has the option to run away (leaving your party behidn to die in the process)?
What is the purpose of the monk class? It is a question that needs to be asked and must be answered before we can really fix the problems. Or so I believe.
Master Arminas
I'm curious, is anyone here familiar with the Magus' Bladebound archetype? Starting at level 3, it gets an intelligent weapon that starts as a +1 and grows to a +5 by level 20.
I can't help but think that making Ki Strike work like that, rather than overcoming certain DR, would make the unarmed monk more powerful, without taking away from other monk styles.
For example:
As long as he has at least 1 point in his ki pool, he can make a ki strike. A ki strike adds an enchantment bonus to the monk's unarmed attacks as listed below. This causes the monk's unarmed attacks to be magic attacks, as if using an enchanted weapon.
Level 4-5: +1
Level 6-8: +2
Level 9-12: +3
Level 13-16: +4
Level 17-20: +5
This would sort of replace the whole overcoming DR thing. In addition, the AoMF could then be worth it's price as an item to add special weapon properties on top of the monk's ki strike. Also, you'd have to take more than a dip to get this bonus.
Just a thought.
I've been advocating this kind of option for months, JediSSJ.
I can see what Amrinas is getting at, though: However I can also read the section on 'role' for the monk, and I think that is what should be aimed at. That's why I would like to see a monk that can make accurate strikes that bypass DR but inflict less damage than other combat classes. This way he can use his other major attack, the stunning fist, with some effect. He becomes useful, because while he is not dealing mega-damage he is able to contribute consistently. This way he can strike at enemy vulnerabilities, which is where he falls down in his role right now.
I've been advocating this kind of option for months, JediSSJ.
I can see what Amrinas is getting at, though: However I can also read the section on 'role' for the monk, and I think that is what should be aimed at. That's why I would like to see a monk that can make accurate strikes that bypass DR but inflict less damage than other combat classes. This way he can use his other major attack, the stunning fist, with some effect. He becomes useful, because while he is not dealing mega-damage he is able to contribute consistently. This way he can strike at enemy vulnerabilities, which is where he falls down in his role right now.
Gotcha. To be fair, a 25 page debate is a bit too daunting a task to wade through too much of.
I'm actually more of a Magus player than a Monk. But I know the Bladebound Magus gets that kind of bonus (on a free intelligent weapon with other powers) for the cost of a small decrease in Arcane Pool size (1/3 level + Int instead of 1/2 level + Int). However, the Magus' blade gets it's own Arcane Pool and certain other abilities on top of the free natural Enchantment bonus progression.
Compared to that, I can't call giving a monk's ki strike a growing enchantment bonus overpowering at all. And to be honest, I'm not even a huge fan of the monk. I'd love to take away the monk's bonus to AC (the set +#, not the Wis) as I really don't like the idea of the monk tank. But, the monk certainly needs improved offense in general (especially if you take something away from it).
I did like the mentioned idea of a monk spending ki points to make flurry of blows a standard action. I kind of like that idea.
In general, I think that adding an enchantment bonus to ki strike and allowing Flurry to be made a standard action via Ki points would make the monk's offense much more competitive.
Just me 2 cents. Admittedly, I'm no monk expert.
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I made a post in a thread titled Psionics in Pathfinder about a certain Monk combination. I wonder if anyone as actually tried it out. Here's a link to the post but I'll quote it here for ease.
I don't own Ultimate Magic... I have briefly looked through a copy. I must have missed all these point based casters. I am curious about them now. I don't see them being used in online games... did they nerf them somehow?
Ultimate Magic introduced the Qinggong Monk Archetype for the Monk. It allows the Monk to trade out certain abilities, such as Slow Fall, for the ability to cast spells, temporarily use Feats, or other such abilities.
One of the most common usages is to trade out Slow Fall for Barkskin. That allows the Monk to spend 1 Ki Point to give himself Barkskin with a caster level equal to his Monk level.
Now, the fun part is when you start mixing Archetypes. Sepcifically, the Sensei Archetype. Why that one specifically? Simple, the Sensei has the Advice ability which is almost exactly like Bardic Music in that the Sensei can Inspire Courage, Inspire Competence and similar things.
However, the real fun is at 6th and 12th level with Mystic Wisdom. Mystic Wisdom allows the Sensei to grant Monk class abilities based off Ki to allies. Remember the Qinggong Monk? Did you know all those abilities are considered class abilities based off Ki? Yup, see where I’m going?
A 12th level Qinggong/Sensei could have traded out Slow Fall for Barkskin, and in doing so, he can give all allies within 30 ft the ability to cast Barkskin on themselves using his Monk level. So now the whole party gets +5 Natural Armor Enhancement for 120 minutes. All for the cost of a single Ki Point. A point well spent in my opinion.
Time to go crazy now.
Let’s say the Qinggong/Sensei didn’t pick up Barkskin (I Know! Crazy right?!). Let’s say he instead picked up… Scorching Ray when he traded out Slow Fall. Don’t jump ahead of me people.
At 12th level, the Qinggong/Sensei can spend 2 Ki points and grant all allies within 30 ft the ability to cast Scorching Ray. So, assuming a party of 5, this means the Qinggong/Sensei just allowed the party to shoot 12 rays of Fire that deal 4d6 points of damage each. I say 12 and not 15, because, although Advice is identical to Bardic Music and can be maintained as a free action, Mystic Wisdom specifies that he has to spend the same action as the ability he’s granting to his allies. So he has to use a Standard Action to give all allies the Scorching Ray ability, at which point they can then spend their Standard Actions casting Scorching Ray.
There are other abilities too. He has limited healing potential through Wholeness of Body, or limited Transportation through Shadow Walk. Through the Qinggong Monk’s 14th level Ki Powers, Diamond Soul has no Ki Point cost nor an activation time. So the Qinggong Monk could buff the party against say, a Lich, by using Advice and spending no actions or Ki to give the whole party Spell Resistance equal to 10 + his Monk level.
So, while the Qinggong/Sensei isn’t a true caster, he sure does look like one at first glance. In many ways, the Qinggong Archetype transforms the Ki Pool into a Power Point System, though as a much more limited resource.
Also, as for a Monk being able to use Wisdom for attacks, the Sensei Archetype introduced Intuitive Strike that allows Wisdom to be used for attack bonuses and combat maneuver checks with unarmed strikes or monk weapons at level 2. So a Cleric or Druid could 2 level dip Sensei Monk and then use Wisdom for attacks if using unarmed strikes or Monk weapons.
So maybe inherently giving the Monk Wisdom for attack with unarmed strikes and monk weapons isn't a bad idea. It's already an option that is allowed via the Sensei Archetype, so if a Cleric of Druid is going to dip for it, they already can.
Ashiel already did that a while ago. Besides, it wasn't my intention to bring Psionic's here, Aranna made the point that Point Systems and Slot Systems (as casters) shouldn't be on the same table. Then TOZ mentioned Slots and Points already being at the same table via Sorcerer and Monk. Aranna wanted to know since when were Monk's casters. TriOmegaZero then said since Ultimate Magic, and I expanded on that post to show why Monks are casters. Sort of.
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Yeah, let's merge Monk and Psionics discussions together, this is gonna be fun. ;-)
"Whatever you do, don't cross the beams!"