My current wizard is becoming a source of frustration. The last 4 encounters, every spell I've thrown that has a saving throw has been saved against. I know he isn't the very top in DC but he is pretty good, but Int is 18 and I have SH and GSF in necromancy {we're only level 6 atm}. Since the group is fairly optimised the GM has added templates, levels, etc... to the monsters. Consequently they all have great saves.
Is it possible to make an effective offensive spell caster using primarily spells that have no saving throw are still reasonable effective if saved against? I don't want to be just a buff bot or summoner, I want to cast spells at the opposition.
I haven't tried to build one like that since 3.5 dusk blade. But I am becoming tempted.
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I made a sorcerer level dipped in gunslinger partly to get 'spells' that have no save. I have to hit the touch AC instead so there's still chances of failure.. but smaller chance. And save bonuses are of no help ;)
It's a suggestion that may not be helpful for you however, as it requires a ton of ranged combat feats (and cash investment in a distance firearm to make touch attacks from 40' away).
But it is an idea at any rate.
Take ranged feats and use rays. Shoot lasers at people. Also, buffing is AWESOME. If you focus mostly on buffs and lasering people, you can make a plenty effective caster. Also spells that create obstacles and control the battlefield without relying overly on saves can still be really useful.
You could also be failing as a Save or Suck caster simply because your DM hates Save or Suck spells being used to end fights he has carefully crafted in one round. If that's the case, then there's really no point banging your head against a wall. Definitely do something else.
It can be done, and if a GM was making monsters with very high saves or fudging dice that is what I would do.
So what would your prefered spells and/or build look like?
Acane or Divine and Prepared or Spontaneous are available. I will be the only REAL spell caster in the group.
As sylvanie said, many dms dislike save or suck effects and either directly (fudge rolls) or indirectly (enemies with high saves) act to prevent them from working. But that doesn't mean you cant be an offensive caster. What it does mean is you should focus on touch spells, ranged touch spells and rays (preferably just ranged touch and rays) and spells that still have an effect if they are saved against.
Ray of Enffeblement, Scorching Ray, Ray of Exhaustion, Acid arrow and their like are good choices. You wont be as versatile as a normal wizard, but if your enemies are making all their saves, those otherspells weren't doing any good anyway.
Seems totally viable.
You have all the cloud spells (for their vision impairing properties), all the wall spells.
Also, if you are using spells with "save negates," AoE spells like glitterdust and grease greatly increase the chance that somebody is going to fail their save.
The Bouncing Spell metamagic feat seems a strong choice for single target save or suck spells like Blindness/Deafness, again, to incase the chance that someone gets hit with it, even if not the intended target.
Just from the first few levels of spells in the CRB, here are a handful of spells with no save.
1st-level
Grease: moving through the grease requires an acrobatics check to move. When you read the acrobatics skill you discover the hidden gem that when you use the acrobatics skill to balance you are considered flat-footed!
Silent Image: in order to be allowed to make a save, the enemy must interact with the illusion in some way, at the very least, wasting an action doing so.
Magic Missile
2nd-level
Command Undead (on mindless undead)
Scorching Ray (maybe not the best spell, but no save)
3rd-level
Explosive Runes
Halt Undead (on mindless undead)
Ray of Exhaustion (fatigued on save, hit them a second time and guaranteed exhaustion)
4th-level
Black Tentacles
Enervation
5th-level
Waves of Fatigue (follow up with Ray of Exhaustion for some auto exhaustion)
There are a very few spells that bypass saves, and most of those are damagers.
Acid Arrow is the poster child for this bypass. No save, no SR.
Other spells have an effect that can be useful even with a save.
Grease is a good example.
Yes. When I play spellcasters I often pick spells that either have no save or always have an effect, even if a saving throw mitigates (but does not negate) the effect. My die luck--including what dice opponents roll to defend against my characters' abilities--is awful. I could design a character to have the highest saves DCs ever, and that would only guarantee my opponents would roll 20s on their saving throws the majority of the time.
For wizards/sorcerers, good core first level spells to start with are grease, magic missile, shocking grasp (if you're okay with touch attacks), and ray of enfeeblement (allows a save, but even saving for half, dealing Strength damage is always useful).
From the APG I like hydraulic push (you do have to make a combat maneuver check, but your chances of success are pretty good, and even if you fail, at least you've made your opponent uncomfortable ;) ). Stumble gap is also interesting -- does allow a save but at least the foe is hindered somewhat even if he does save. Don't know the UM spells as well.
And of course any buffs and utilities are always awesome. When you can't directly blast or hinder the enemy, help your allies do it for you. Even if you want to focus on offensive spells, having defensive and utility spells as backup is never a bad idea.
You can take the "Reach Spell" metamagic to turn touch spells into Rays as well. Some touch spells can be pretty nasty.
Definitely use wall spells once they are available. They can be like Save or Suck spells without a save in many conditions.
Summon Spells are pretty beastly at times.
Fog effects can negate enemy ranged characters (as can a wall of wind a lot of the time), and grease and other spells that make difficult terrain can have a huge impact on the fight as well.
I'd go with arcane, and then also go with a specialist wizard. Make enchantment and one other school you don't use a ton into your opposed schools.
You know, I've always neglected reach spell for arcane casters since they always have ranged options.
I often put it on divine casters though.
I will think about that for 7th level feat.
You know, I've always neglected reach spell for arcane casters since they always have ranged options.
I often put it on divine casters though.
I will think about that for 7th level feat.
Ask your dm about the possibility of retraining some of the feats you already have. If you are going to switch your focus to touch spells, spell focus and greater spell focus will be wasted feats. And you should find out (carefully) if your gm was deliberately trying to avoid save or suck spells, because if he was, then reverting to touch spells will just up the tension, not resolve the issue.
We've talked about it some already. Though I didn't specifically ask about retraining feats, he would probably be ok with that. Our group sometimes has a fairly high death/retirement rate. So I could always make a new character if necessary. But reach spell and different spells in my book is fairly easy if we get a little down time to shop.
He doesn't fudge die rolls. He rolls right in front of us. But most of the monsters have about an 8+ on their bad save and 12+ on their good saves. Plus since I have intentionally not memorized the Beastiaries (or his often used 3.x books), I don't always guess right on which are bad saves.
And I don't think he would try to eliminate SoS spells without telling us. There were a few in 3.5 that as a group we agreed to not use because they were just too good. I think the biggies were the Iron Bands and Orb spells.
I think he has just upped the power level (because we were stomping) through templates and levels rather than numbers and it has made my spells fairly ineffective.
And as a group we've still been taking out the monsters pretty quick, I just don't feel like I'm contributing enough to the combats.
Here's a funky idea:
Up your Int as high as possible to get good DCs. Even though your DM is purposefully screwing you over (from the sounds of it), drop the Create Pit style spells often. Even if enemies save (which it sounds like they will), use Hydraulic Push on them the next turn, and/or plan with the party melee'rs to have them be good at bull rushing. No save if you get bull-rushed into a pit.
Also, you could even take Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush and eventually Greater Bull Rush. These feats work with Hydraulic Push, I believe. But beyond Hydraulic Push, you could also just drop a True Strike and Bull Rush things yourself.
Other than the Pit spells, you're only relying on first level spells (you could even use scrolls that only cost you 12 gp to make (for True Strike, at least). Pearls of Power for first level spells are also pretty darn cheap.
I know it's not the most optimized idea in the world and has its flaws, but it sounds pretty fun, at least to me.
Strange Build Alert:
Fighter 1/Sorcerer 4/Dragon Disciple 4/Eldritch Knight 10
Jack up your strength instead of charisma as much, drop Pits and bull rush with a solid BAB and great Strength? Could easily have 24 Strength without magic items by level 9. Drop pits and Charge/Bull Rush things into them? I'd love to give this a shot!
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Or you can play a Halfling Witch (or any Archetype that gives you Hexes) with the Halfling Jinx alternate racial trait (from Halflings of Golarion).
Evil Eye, Misfortune, Cackle and your Jinx ability should be enough to make any enemy fail any save. Even better if they can be shaken through Intimidate first.
“Hey Bob. Look I know we were stomping all over the encounters earlier, and I understand why you had to give the monsters a little boost(if there’s no challenge, there’s no fun), but when they always make their saves, it makes me feel useless and marginalized. Can you maybe scale it back a bit, so it’s still challenging but not overpowering? Thanks”.
Yeah DrDeth, that is how the conversation started. But I have to agree with him that they are not overpowering the party. As a group we are still usually taking down most things except final bosses in 2 rounds.
He is rightly concerned that if he tried to increase their survival against weapon damage and lower their saves he'd have the opposite problem. I would be doing well, but the rest of the party couldn't handle them.
Plus I can't really claim to be marginalized since my spells have been doing a significant portion of the work outside of combat.
Atm, it seems to be just me that is having problems. So I will keep playing as is, but I was think what I could do with my build (or next PC) since I seem to be having the most problem with it.
We aren't using leadership or summoners. The group is 5 people and we almost always have at least 1 (sometimes 2) NPC's with us for story reasons. Fights are unwieldy enough as it is.
Even my wizard only uses summon monster in special situations.
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I'm going to suggest using battlefield modification spells.
Walls are a lotr of fun without saves, the various cloud spells may use saves but it's a recurring save that has a recurring chance of failure.
The new Pit spells a have save but also create interesting changes in the battlefield that can really screw with a DM's tactics.
Another suggestion is to make sure the spells you do pick have some sort of effect regardless of a save being made or not.
*edit for my horrible spelling*
and never, ever forget haste. it is the most damaging spell you can cast and no one gets to save.
My other thought it maybe focus spells toward the lesser saves of what you are fighting. if the monsters are +12 across the board, not much you can do but if you can target what you think is their weaker saves you should have better luck.
Simple things like:
Spell casters = Fort save
Warrior types = Will save
Will not fit in all circumstances but it's my rule of thumb.