I was wondering what other GMs used for the level of firearm availability for Carrion Crown? I have one player itching to play a Gunslinger, and our group hasn't tried out the rules for the class yet.
i'm going with early fire arms, a complicated subject to be sure. my player's are all new to pathfinder so i didn't want to restrict them to much. i say try it out, change up some treasure for him and see how it goes:)
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I wouldn't allow it in my game, both in terms of atmosphere and power balance. I've seen several GMs complain in the Carrion Crown messageboard in reference to Gunslinger PCs.
For example, this from a comment by magnuskn on a recent thread called "The end of book two":
So, I'd take that as a warning.
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In theory, firearms should be quite fitting, as many, if not most, of the themes of CC have their roots in the gothic literature of the late 18. and early-to-mid 19. century, while others are even more recent, like the Lovecraftian horror. But Pathfinder heroes do not have much in common with the actual protagonists of these stories, at least mechanically, and the backdrop of the AP does not fit these roots either, which is not surprising, given that Golarion is mostly classic fantasy. So it all comes down to GM preference. I would say early firearms at most. I just cannot see revolver-toting gunmen in Ustalav.
Personally, I set the AP in a more "advanced" age to capture the feel of the gothic tales but that is not Golarion anymore - and it is quite some work to get all the details right. Luckily, the era and its literature has been one of my hobbies since my studies, and I even wrote book about it, so I had already done most of the necessary research.
There isn't really too much problems with firearms, or the gunslinger, as long as you enforce three thing.
Keep to the Early Firearms period, which is the default assumption the game makes.
Ensure that you don't allow archetypes like the pistoleer that allows the character to ignore misfire without cost. Guns misfire much more often than they critical after all (at least 10% of the time versus less than 5% of the time), and two misfires cause the gun to explode.
Make sure the gunslinger is properly spending gold and time to create/repair their weapon and to make each bullet and dose of powder.
That someone had problems with the Gunslinger versus the Aberrant Promethean can be put down to mishandling the monster. With its reach and massive collection of abilities, it should be no problem for the Promethean to crush a gunslinger who got close enough to attack its touch AC.
Seriously
Firearms fit within a gothic themed fantasy adventure the way barbarians fit in swords and sorcery *coughSolomonKanecough*. So long as you keep in the limitations of firearms in mind, and enforce them, there isn't much of an issue.
I wouldn't allow it in my game, both in terms of atmosphere and power balance. I've seen several GMs complain in the Carrion Crown messageboard in reference to Gunslinger PCs.
For example, this from a comment by magnuskn on a recent thread called "The end of book two":
** spoiler omitted **So, I'd take that as a warning.
That's a general problem with Gunslingers and not exactly something I would limit to the Carrion Crown AP. Our Paladin can do comparable and better damage, when he gets to smiting evil things.
Go with firearms but without the Gunslinger class - rate of fire and a lot of the tricks you can play drops - guns then become the fire and drop option.
This is actually the solution I went with, with the flavor reason being that guns are not common or powerful/reliable enough in the region for a person to bother dedicating their training to them exclusively.
Thanks for the input, everyone, I appreciate it.
I wouldn't allow it in my game, both in terms of atmosphere and power balance. I've seen several GMs complain in the Carrion Crown messageboard in reference to Gunslinger PCs.
For example, this from a comment by magnuskn on a recent thread called "The end of book two":
** spoiler omitted **So, I'd take that as a warning.
That was but one, and it was a crit. I've seen other classes blow through some of theses same fights as well. The Gunslinger is hardly overpowered. Fighters consistently out damage them. They fall behind a druid (3/4 Base Attack)as well. I see know problem with the flavor of a gunslinger either Firearms have been a part of D&D since a minimum 2e, I see emerging firearms level of play balances very well in any of the Adventure Paths.
One of my players wanted to be a gunslinger, and that was fine with me, with the caveat that his backstory was he essentially came through a wormhole. This means that guns are super extremely rare and he's responsible for crafting all his own supplies.
Nobody's ever seen a firearm, and while they don't garner a lot of attention most of the time (looking like some kind of funky wand), they attract a whole lot of attention when they're fired.
On the other hand, he's become pretty good friends with Jorfa, and is trading gunsmithing lessons for her connections in regards to obtaining materials and for some minor discounts on gear.
One of my players wanted to be a gunslinger, and that was fine with me, with the caveat that his backstory was he essentially came through a wormhole. This means that guns are super extremely rare and he's responsible for crafting all his own supplies.
Nobody's ever seen a firearm, and while they don't garner a lot of attention most of the time (looking like some kind of funky wand), they attract a whole lot of attention when they're fired.
On the other hand, he's become pretty good friends with Jorfa, and is trading gunsmithing lessons for her connections in regards to obtaining materials and for some minor discounts on gear.
I'm not sure that a wormhole was needed, since there's only one land in all of Golarion that makes guns. He could have just been from the Mana Wastes and you would have had the same results.
Oh, absolutely. But that was the roleplaying angle the player wanted, and it didn't affect a single thing in terms of gameplay, so it was fine by me. Plus, it had the added benefit that the character was in a position of being completely isolated, vs. "oh, sure, I'm kinda far from home but soon I'll go back there and get some real weaponry."
The character has run across a person or two who are aware there's some distant land where they make boom sticks. Jorfa's one of 'em.
I'm running Carrion Crown with a slight injection of steampunk in the mix, and although my players haven't yet expressed a desire to use firearms, two NPCs have thus far (the sheriff of Ravengro had a shotgun, and a villain I inserted is cleric/sorcerer with the Amateur Gunslinger feat). Based on what little I've seen of those two NPCs in action so far, I'd probably allow an existing PC to multiclass into gunslinger, or let a player start one up if their current PC died. Start slowly incorporating gun elements into the AP, and don't be afraid to back off and revise your decision if it becomes problematic.
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I think the trick to dealing with gunslingers lies in examining the firearms rules, not just to understand them, but also to exploit them against the PCs.
Such strategies include making the Gunslinger run out of grit points, having your baddies keep enough distance that the touch AC factor doesn't come into play, bring up the threat of wet powder (Why yes, there is a river to be crossed between the Shudderwood and Feldgrau. And yes, the Wake of the Watcher has an entire section that takes place underwater.) Throw some incorporeal beasties at them, who have pretty good touch ACs anyway.
What I'm trying to say is that why ban a particular class or combonation, when it's so much more satisfying to take it apart?
What I'm trying to say is that why ban a particular class or combonation, when it's so much more satisfying to take it apart?
Fair enough. My main reason for disallowing the class (and firearms in general) is because it isn't the flavor I want for my version of Golarion (although I'll have to think about what to do if anyone in one of my games ever wanders down to that one place where they do have firearms).
I actually limited the Campain to the following books (as they where only availibe when we started):
Core, Advanced, Ulimate Magic....so no firearms. I like the Idea, but then I would actualy go and fit SOME of the parties enemies also with Firearms.
I think the trick to dealing with gunslingers lies in examining the firearms rules, not just to understand them, but also to exploit them against the PCs.
Such strategies include making the Gunslinger run out of grit points, having your baddies keep enough distance that the touch AC factor doesn't come into play, bring up the threat of wet powder (Why yes, there is a river to be crossed between the Shudderwood and Feldgrau. And yes, the Wake of the Watcher has an entire section that takes place underwater.) Throw some incorporeal beasties at them, who have pretty good touch ACs anyway.What I'm trying to say is that why ban a particular class or combonation, when it's so much more satisfying to take it apart?
Because I find it annoying to alter the whole AP just to accomondate one class. Also, the Paladin is shaping up to be even more of a problem, since I ( think I ) made the mistake of letting him get a Sunblade. The guy already is talking about doing 100 points per swing against undead opponents as soon as level 12 rolls around. I'll have to look into that. :-/
Because I find it annoying to alter the whole AP just to accomondate one class. Also, the Paladin is shaping up to be even more of a problem, since I ( think I ) made the mistake of letting him get a Sunblade. The guy already is talking about doing 100 points per swing against undead opponents as soon as level 12 rolls around. I'll have to look into that. :-/I think the trick to dealing with gunslingers lies in examining the firearms rules, not just to understand them, but also to exploit them against the PCs.
Such strategies include making the Gunslinger run out of grit points, having your baddies keep enough distance that the touch AC factor doesn't come into play, bring up the threat of wet powder (Why yes, there is a river to be crossed between the Shudderwood and Feldgrau. And yes, the Wake of the Watcher has an entire section that takes place underwater.) Throw some incorporeal beasties at them, who have pretty good touch ACs anyway.What I'm trying to say is that why ban a particular class or combonation, when it's so much more satisfying to take it apart?
Thank you sooo much for this post magnuskin i was just going to add a sun blade to the next treasure trove!. sorry it didn't work for you, but at least be conforted that you saved at least me from a similar fate:) (not sarcasm)
The dude playing him already has a victim complex, because his character died once already ( and it happened two other times in the last AP ), so I don't know if I really want to set off another round of whining from him. I guess I'll have to do that if things really get as bad as he is calculating them to.
Thank you sooo much for this post magnuskin i was just going to add a sun blade to the next treasure trove!. sorry it didn't work for you, but at least be conforted that you saved at least me from a similar fate:) (not sarcasm)
You're welcome. GM'ing is a constant learning process, which involves players getting their hands on an overpowering combination of items and class abilities, through which you have to suffer to get it right the next time.
Seriously, if things get as bad as "100 damage per swing" indicate, I'll take the weapon away from him. I seldomly use those tactics ( especially because I'll have to suffer through the player whinging about it for years ), but I'd rather save the campaign than indulge one players wish for being overpowered. I am nervous enough already that Adivion Adrissant seems like a total push-over as a final opponent.
That reminds me about an experience i had as a first time dm. i'd just gotten my dms guide, had a few extra bucks so i also got a forgotten realms magic item guide -the name escapes me right now, i already had the gray box, so I'm all excited and put laeral's storm armor in the adventure. big mistake as the armor provided immunity to fire and electricity. i didn't realize how hard it was to hit a pc in plate armor immune to fire and electricity, i've been pretty careful since but sometimes mistakes are made:)
That reminds me about an experience i had as a first time dm. i'd just gotten my dms guide, had a few extra bucks so i also got a forgotten realms magic item guide -the name escapes me right now, i already had the gray box, so I'm all excited and put laeral's storm armor in the adventure. big mistake as the armor provided immunity to fire and electricity. i didn't realize how hard it was to hit a pc in plate armor immune to fire and electricity, i've been pretty careful since but sometimes mistakes are made:)
We'll see. I got a scare already, with the Paladin doing 69 damage in one hit while smiting, without critting.
Because I find it annoying to alter the whole AP just to accomondate one class. Also, the Paladin is shaping up to be even more of a problem, since I ( think I ) made the mistake of letting him get a Sunblade. The guy already is talking about doing 100 points per swing against undead opponents as soon as level 12 rolls around. I'll have to look into that. :-/I think the trick to dealing with gunslingers lies in examining the firearms rules, not just to understand them, but also to exploit them against the PCs.
Such strategies include making the Gunslinger run out of grit points, having your baddies keep enough distance that the touch AC factor doesn't come into play, bring up the threat of wet powder (Why yes, there is a river to be crossed between the Shudderwood and Feldgrau. And yes, the Wake of the Watcher has an entire section that takes place underwater.) Throw some incorporeal beasties at them, who have pretty good touch ACs anyway.What I'm trying to say is that why ban a particular class or combonation, when it's so much more satisfying to take it apart?
In truth, my last statement can apply to all classes and combinations. I'll admit, tailoring an adventure to the party takes a lot of extra effort, and though your players may not ever know it or thank you directly for it, everyone is going to have more fun.
I'll take a look at those, thanks. :)
The guy already is talking about doing 100 points per swing against undead opponents as soon as level 12 rolls around.
The dude playing him already has a victim complex, because his character died once already ( and it happened two other times in the last AP )…
I seldomly use those tactics ( especially because I'll have to suffer through the player whinging about it for years ), but I'd rather save the campaign than indulge one players wish for being overpowered.
You killed his character three times and are surprised he wants to build a more powerful character? What did you expect him to do? Have you talked to him about expectations? I think you are being somewhat unfair to accuse him of being 'whiny'. I would be frustrated too.