I never knew which is consider more dangerous/ worse.
negative level, because most ability damage abilities have a clause: this can't bring you below 1.
Also a lot more things do ability damage, which should be an indication.
Edit: this is a personal opinion, eager to hear what other people think aswell.
Ability damage also regenerates. If a negative level is permanent you have to get it fixed with magic. Negative level also affect your entire character. Ability damage is limited to fewer areas, and unless it is constitution damage it does not outright kill you.
Negative level is worse. I agree with all the reasons other people have mentioned, but the worst part to me is that you loose one of your highest level spells memorized for each negative level.
negative level, because most ability damage abilities have a clause: this can't bring you below 1.
Nope:
If the amount of ability damage you have taken equals or exceeds your ability score, you immediately fall unconscious until the damage is less than your ability score. The only exception to this is your Constitution score. If the damage to your Constitution is equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you die.
you misunderstood what he was trying to say.
he said MOST abilities say "can not bring you below 1"
Actually they don't, they just say "take x STR/INT/DEX/whatever damage". He might be thinking of ability penalties for example from a ray of enfeeblement spell, which are similar but not the same. These often state that the penalty cannot bring your score below 1.
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Negative level is worse. I agree with all the reasons other people have mentioned, but the worst part to me is that you loose one of your highest level spells memorized for each negative level.
Spell casters don't lose any spells, but their caster level goes down.
... For each negative level a creature has, it takes a
cumulative –1 penalty on all ability checks, attack rolls,
combat maneuver checks, Combat Maneuver Defense,
saving throws, and skill checks. In addition, the creature
reduces its current and total hit points by 5 for each negative
level it possesses. The creature is also treated as one level
lower for the purpose of level-dependent variables (such as
spellcasting) for each negative level possessed. Spellcasters
do not lose any prepared spells or slots as a result of negative
levels. If a creature’s negative levels equal or exceed its total
Hit Dice, it dies. ...
Negative levels are much much worse - except for undead :-)
Negative level is worse. I agree with all the reasons other people have mentioned, but the worst part to me is that you loose one of your highest level spells memorized for each negative level.Spell casters don't lose any spells, but their caster level goes down.
... For each negative level a creature has, it takes a
cumulative –1 penalty on all ability checks, attack rolls,
combat maneuver checks, Combat Maneuver Defense,
saving throws, and skill checks. In addition, the creature
reduces its current and total hit points by 5 for each negative
level it possesses. The creature is also treated as one level
lower for the purpose of level-dependent variables (such as
spellcasting) for each negative level possessed. Spellcasters
do not lose any prepared spells or slots as a result of negative
levels. If a creature’s negative levels equal or exceed its total
Hit Dice, it dies. ...
Okay I had this conversation with someone the other day, and they said that the caster is no longer able to cast those spells. They still have them, but can't cast them until the negative level is removed. Is that the correct interpretation? Because the way I read that it sounded like spell DC's go down, damage dice go down (like instead of 5d6 you are now doing 4d6, because of the negative level), but since the spells and slots did not get "eaten" up, the caster could still cast those spells. Just wondering what the correct thing is by RAW.
I think it's pretty clear. "Spellcasters do not lose any prepared spells or slots as a result of negative levels." That's pretty much it, you've still got all your spells. They're just not as awesome as they should be.
A topic near and dear to my heart; my sorcerer-6 is currently lugging two negative levels around from being killed by an unfair encounter. He can still cast haste but he can only affect four targets with it. Usually the bard gets left out.
Okay, that's how I interpreted it too. They still have the spells, and can cast them, they're just a bit less awesome. I'd be interested to see how others adjudicate this. Perhaps I'll start a new thread to such an end, but right now I'm off to lunch. :)
It does produce the otherwise-rare scenario of casting a spell below minimum caster level. If I'm a 5th level wizard and just got my fireball spell, the lowest my fireball can be is 5d6. But if I pick up two negative levels, I'm now making 3d6 fireballs.
It does produce the otherwise-rare scenario of casting a spell below minimum caster level. If I'm a 5th level wizard and just got my fireball spell, the lowest my fireball can be is 5d6. But if I pick up two negative levels, I'm now making 3d6 fireballs.
I would say, after reading up on it a bit, that you have 2 scenarios if your caster level drops beneath the minimum caster level of your class:
- prepared casters: cast the *prepared* spell at the memorized caster level, 5d6 in your example- spontaneous casters: if you were a 6th level sorcerer and dropped to a caster level of 4, you cannot cast a fireball (or other 3rd+ level spells anymore). The reason is that the spell is created spontaneously and thus not already stored as with the prepared casters.
You can read the source for my findings here:
You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.
In the event that a class feature or other special ability provides an adjustment to your caster level, that adjustment applies not only to effects based on caster level (such as range, duration, and damage dealt), but also to your caster level check to overcome your target's spell resistance and to the caster level used in dispel checks (both the dispel check and the Dc of the check).
Combine this with the rules in magic item creation where you also cannot go beneath the minimum level possible, and it's pretty clear. Finally, I would also ask the question: If it was possible to reduce the effect of a spell (which can be useful in some situations, e.g. to soften but not kill someone with a merciful fireball), then why can a fully healthy and unhampered character not do it, but a hurt and weakened one can? That would not make much sense then, thus my answer is as stated above :-)
Sangalor, would you please place copy and paste this into the new thread I started? It would be a great starting point for that conversation.
Thanks
Edit: Also, sorry for any derailment my question caused. Back to the OP's question. :)
I would say, after reading up on it a bit, that you have 2 scenarios if your caster level drops beneath the minimum caster level of your class:
- prepared casters: cast the *prepared* spell at the memorized caster level, 5d6 in your example
- spontaneous casters: if you were a 6th level sorcerer and dropped to a caster level of 4, you cannot cast a fireball (or other 3rd+ level spells anymore). The reason is that the spell is created spontaneously and thus not already stored as with the prepared casters.
Spontaneous casters are already behind the curve compared to prepared spellcasters. Please don't hinder them further.
Spontaneous casters are already behind the curve compared to prepared spellcasters. Please don't hinder them further.I would say, after reading up on it a bit, that you have 2 scenarios if your caster level drops beneath the minimum caster level of your class:
- prepared casters: cast the *prepared* spell at the memorized caster level, 5d6 in your example
- spontaneous casters: if you were a 6th level sorcerer and dropped to a caster level of 4, you cannot cast a fireball (or other 3rd+ level spells anymore). The reason is that the spell is created spontaneously and thus not already stored as with the prepared casters.
Well, there were enough threads about that, don't want to start a new one. But yes, that would be an effect.
Would it help you if I said that by the rules spontaneous casting of clerics, druids, and prepared casters utilizing the preferred spell feat are also affected and thus shut off? ;-)But we should discuss this in the other thread I guess...