How do you learn to optimize / min-max well.


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Xexyz wrote:
Thalin wrote:
dedicated healers feel that is their duty in life; and far too often pass or doing something meaningless.

I think this is why there's disagreement on this issue. Just because someone's a full healer doesn't mean they're going to waste actions when they have nothing to heal. Bad playing != bad role. There also seems to be a contingent posting that thinks that all that's necessary to be a healer is to have CLW on your spell list so you can use a wand of CLW, which is ridiculous.

What those of us in the pro-healer camp are saying is that the ability to emergency heal when necessary - well enough to restore a martial character from near death to near-full health - and perform other types of healing (removal of negative levels, conditions, ability damage and so forth) is very important and the primary role of a full healer. It doesn't mean that when there's no healing to be done that the healer is standing around picking his nose. Every class that can fulfill the roll of a full healer can also buff, debuff, do some damage, and other useful stuff. In fact I'm pretty sure it's impossible to build a character that can do nothing but heal. So like I said above, if the healer is twiddling his thumbs because there's no healing to be done that's poor play on the healer's part, not an indictment against the usefulness of a full healer.

Exactly :-)

Even if you are a cleric with the healing domain and extra channel, selective channel, quicken channel, reach spell, trait magical lineage: cure light wounds, trait: sacred touch, preferred spell: heal etc. as your feats/traits and have max ranks in heal, you can still cast flame strike, blessing of fervor, magic circle against evil, resist energy, dispel magic etc.
Even if you are a bard with every cure spell, break enchantment, saving finale etc. you can still inspire courage (or similar ability), arcane strike, shoot arrows, cast greater invisibility on the rogue, cast grease on opponents, flank, aid another etc.
The list goes on...

You do not need to outrace damage, and you even less need to outrace damage every time. You just need to heal enough and remove or postpone conditions (nauseated, stunned, paralyzed; poison; ...) well and reliably enough to ensure the party survives this encounter - even at -9 hp and stable.


Sangalor wrote:
You do not need to outrace damage, and you even less need to outrace damage every time. You just need to heal enough and remove or postpone conditions (nauseated, stunned, paralyzed; poison; ...) well and reliably enough to ensure the party survives this encounter - even at -9 hp and stable.

And yet, you are still better off ending the fight entirely rather than trying to stay up one more round.

Even more, is that the cleric who takes Scribe Scroll and Hedge magician is pretty much covering all his bases without even using spell slots. After all how many times a day are you really going to be casting remove paralysis? Every scroll scribed is one less slot spent on trying to patch up boo boos because the party fighter decided to make out with the hot succubus/wight/vampire of the hour. And you don't need to be a dedicated healer to do this these sorts of spells work whether or not you have feats invested in them.

Thalin has hit the nail on the head in regards to damage vs. channel energy. All you have to do is look in the back of the bestiary to the monster creation guideline chart that shows the low/high damage per CR, realize that paizo tends to skew higher on its own monsters, to realize that by itself it's relatively worthless. Essentially you are investing 2-3 feats to a feat starved class to make something okay to use in combat. But, not better. You still don't have any means of inreasing the damage healed on it, it's still based on what is essentially a secondary stat for the class (hence the arguments that the cleric is MAD).

Now realize that my arguments do not necessarily apply to ways of augmenting channeling such as alternate channeling or the merciful healers channel. Status removal is really not bad on it particularly when you can do it as a move action. And the buffs from alternate channeling stack with nearly everything.


TarkXT wrote:
Sangalor wrote:
You do not need to outrace damage, and you even less need to outrace damage every time. You just need to heal enough and remove or postpone conditions (nauseated, stunned, paralyzed; poison; ...) well and reliably enough to ensure the party survives this encounter - even at -9 hp and stable.

And yet, you are still better off ending the fight entirely rather than trying to stay up one more round.

You are still missing the point. If in your games you can ensure victory with your next action that when your buddies will be dead in the next round because they are either already dying or very beaten up, you play a very specific subset of games with a very specific, if not limited, kind of opposition.

Opponents make saves.
Opponents may crit.
Opponents may have an immunity you had not known about.
You may miss opponents with your attack (natural 1, concealment etc.)

Finishing a fight early is often the best choice. I and others here have agreed there again and again. Also avoiding damage is first choice. This was also stated again and again.

But depending on the type of game one plays you do not have the option or you are just unlucky. If I can get or keep 4 people up again by channeling once, that is 4 or more actions that the group gets back. If I manage to avoid a single character dying, that is 10000 gp (5000 raise dead + 5000 restoration, for example) saved.

"Finishing a fight early" does not always work. Healing may not be enough in some cases, but it always works. And if you are very good at it, it will also be enough on top of it.

TarkXT wrote:


Even more, is that the cleric who takes Scribe Scroll and Hedge magician is pretty much covering all his bases without even using spell slots. After all how many times a day are you really going to be casting remove paralysis?

More often than I have time to spare to write scrolls? Especially at high caster levels like a remove curse requires? You also know you are limited to one scroll per day? If you always have the time to scribe a scroll, and you *always* have slots left to memorize them, and you have the parchment and you have the gold available, that is your games. Not the games I have played, and I have played many.

I would not waste money on scrolls like that. One maybe to cover the unusual spells, but a good healer can either convert them or has a few for emergency cases available.

TarkXT wrote:


Every scroll scribed is one less slot spent on trying to patch up boo boos because the party fighter decided to make out with the hot succubus/wight/vampire of the hour. And you don't need to be a dedicated healer to do this these sorts of spells work whether or not you have feats invested in them.

Xeyz brought up good examples where that logic and those games don't apply. There are many more. If that does not happen in your games, that is just your games. Not everyone's.

TarkXT wrote:


Thalin has hit the nail on the head in regards to damage vs. channel energy.

No, he hasn't. He - and you - are apparently consistently overlooking the statements that it *does not matter* if you heal less. You just have to heal *enough*. If the party fighter has 100 hp and loses 160hp during a fight, but gets 65 hps back due to healing over the course of the battle, he is still standing at 5 hp. In this scenario, the party has one, and the healer has contributed significantly.

TarkXT wrote:


All you have to do is look in the back of the bestiary to the monster creation guideline chart that shows the low/high damage per CR, realize that paizo tends to skew higher on its own monsters, to realize that by itself it's relatively worthless. Essentially you are investing 2-3 feats to a feat starved class to make something okay to use in combat. But, not better. You still don't have any means of inreasing the damage healed on it, it's still based on what is essentially a secondary stat for the class (hence the arguments that the cleric is MAD).

Again, does not matter.

TarkXT wrote:


Now realize that my arguments do not necessarily apply to ways of augmenting channeling such as alternate channeling or the merciful healers channel. Status removal is really not bad on it particularly when you can do it as a move action. And the buffs from alternate channeling stack with nearly everything.

It does not even apply to "heal", "mass cure", remove poison, and more. Even a simple cure light wounds can be enough to keep someone up.

And yes, you do not need to focus on healing with all your feats. My example illustrated that even if you do you can still do other things.

For the record: I will let this argument rest now, I have made my case. I have spoken from experience, and I find the whole attitude "healing is only for poor/bad/inexperienced/ineffective/... players" pretty condescending towards those games that are run differently or towards people who enjoy playing like that. A friend of mine is playing a merciful healer, and he has lots of fun. That does not make him a poor player or the other players ineffective. It's just that the adventure can be run differently (lots of poison, surprise attacks, massive area attacks etc.) by the DM than it can be without him.
I have been the main healer as a bard, optimized with some feats for that, for 1.5 years. It has been fun, and I have always had enough to do when I was not healing (buffing, dispelling, attacking, summoning for flanking etc.).

@OP: Adventures and group dynamics are decisive in what is useful and works or does not work. If you enjoy playing a certain role, enjoy it. Don't let anybody tell you it's "bad" or "inefficient". Pathfinder is a group game - you cover the weaknesses of others, they cover yours :-)


A good healer, IMHO, is a healer that only seems like a healer when you need healing. Not the robed white mage that just tosses out a cure when Fighter's HP is too low.

Clerics in D&D/PF have always been more like warpriests. They have proficiency in weapons, armors, and despite their spell-investments don't actually need a lot of Wisdom relatively speaking (enough to cast their spells is often enough).

A good or neutral cleric with spontaneous heals is often enough to be a dedicated healer while also tearing stuff up in battle. They can prepare stuff like summon monster I-IX, party buffs, or things like divine power and righteous might and wade into battle killing stuff. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure as they say.

The one healing spell that actually might keep up with incoming damage is heal and mass heal. Sadly, they can't spontaneously cast those spells, last I checked.


Theos Imarion wrote:
Some people have talked using excel for figuring out your characters abilities but I don't know how to use it could some one point me in the right direction to learn how to? I have numbers which works pretty much the same way.

Excel can be use to do complex mathematic, but unless you are really good at math yourself, and decent with configuring excel it is difficult to do.

<realizes I have such a spreadsheet. >
I do however have a spreadsheet that was used for the DPR Olympics.
spreadsheet

edit:I did not create the spreadsheet. I am just providing the link. I can verify that it is accurate though.


So can we agree that clerics can cast CLW and beat with a hammer too and move on now?


TarkXT wrote:
Sangalor wrote:
You do not need to outrace damage, and you even less need to outrace damage every time. You just need to heal enough and remove or postpone conditions (nauseated, stunned, paralyzed; poison; ...) well and reliably enough to ensure the party survives this encounter - even at -9 hp and stable.

And yet, you are still better off ending the fight entirely rather than trying to stay up one more round.

Even more, is that the cleric who takes Scribe Scroll and Hedge magician is pretty much covering all his bases without even using spell slots. After all how many times a day are you really going to be casting remove paralysis? Every scroll scribed is one less slot spent on trying to patch up boo boos because the party fighter decided to make out with the hot succubus/wight/vampire of the hour. And you don't need to be a dedicated healer to do this these sorts of spells work whether or not you have feats invested in them.

Thalin has hit the nail on the head in regards to damage vs. channel energy. All you have to do is look in the back of the bestiary to the monster creation guideline chart that shows the low/high damage per CR, realize that paizo tends to skew higher on its own monsters, to realize that by itself it's relatively worthless. Essentially you are investing 2-3 feats to a feat starved class to make something okay to use in combat. But, not better. You still don't have any means of inreasing the damage healed on it, it's still based on what is essentially a secondary stat for the class (hence the arguments that the cleric is MAD).

Now realize that my arguments do not necessarily apply to ways of augmenting channeling such as alternate channeling or the merciful healers channel. Status removal is really not bad on it particularly when you can do it as a move action. And the buffs from alternate channeling stack with nearly everything.

The alternate channels also heal(hit point damage) people?

I just read that section again. It is better than I thought I will have to read over those in detail. I completely misread it before.


They're pretty awesome. I especially like the strength one if you have a lot of melee beef in the party. IMO channeling in combat only makes sense if everybody benefits, and the alternate channeling makes your channel benefit people with full hp. The only drawback is halfed healing dice, but oh well. Spontaneously cast a Mass cure if you need more for some weird reason.


If people are using "healbot" to mean "Character who prepares and ton of buffs and summons and stuff and is a competent melee or ranged combatant with good defenses and the like but has the ability to toss some heals if that's really the best combat option", then absolutely, healbots rock and I take back what I said about it being a relatively inefficient character type. Pathfinder is generally pretty good about letting healers do other things and still provide adequate healing. Most people posting in Advice probably have enough system mastery to know that. I generally use the term "healbot" to refer to a character that plans to use most of their actions healing, something that many new players or players with low system mastery assume is potent or even essential - optimizing for a party role like an archer ranger would try to make sure he can reliably do a lot of damage. It comes from the same well-intentioned but ultimately flawed place that the 20-con Fullplate fighter with a bunch of defensive feats comes from. Unlike that character, however, the healbot will often generate the illusion of being an effective character, as their lack of offensive output drags out combat, making their talents somewhat more useful.


Just float on the clouds man and maybe one day you'll fly.


Joyd wrote:
If people are using "healbot" to mean "Character who prepares and ton of buffs and summons and stuff and is a competent melee or ranged combatant with good defenses and the like but has the ability to toss some heals if that's really the best combat option", then absolutely, healbots rock and I take back what I said about it being a relatively inefficient character type.

Yeah that's what is commonly referred to as 'CoDzilla' or a "god wizard" -- not a healbot. It's a misuse of the term at best.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Here is an example of optimizing AC. It has nothing to do with cheating and everything to do with just spending gold in the most efficient manner.
Note: Celestial mail and celestial plate not included.

A sample reference for Armor Class costs

AC comes, at a fundamental level, in the following forms which are easy to gain: Dex Bonus; Armor Bonus; Natural Armor Bonus; Deflection Bonus; and potentially a Shield Bonus. Yes, there are Insight, Sacred, Profane, Competence, Dodge and all sorts of other bonuses, but the above bonuses are the ones that are easy to pay gold for and retain.

This is a simple basic guide to maximizing AC for gold.

Two builds are presented here – With Shield, and without Shield. Additionally, there is a third build here using Defender to accentuate your AC via an off-hand weapon, or on a shield.

First is going to be choice of armor.
The optimal types of armor are: Light Armor (all varieties add up to +8 Armor/Dex allowed); Breastplate (Medium armor, +6 AC/+3 Dex = +9); and Full Plate (+9 AC, +1 Dex = +10).

Note: Celestial Armor completely borks this table if you have the Dex to top it off, coming in at +13!!

First thing to point out is that Mithral is only a viable AC option if you have the Dex to max it out, OR you need your armor to be lighter for movement purposes.

Classes that are going to get exceedingly high Dex scores are actually better off with lighter armor that allows them to maximize use of their Dexterity at later levels. The exception to this is the Fighter; because Armor Training expands the maximum Dex bonus, Fighters typically aren’t going to need Mithral armor until very late levels, when their Dex scores exceed either 20 or 24 (Full Plate/Breastplate).

Maximizing AC is based on costs to gain an extra point of AC. These costs are:

+1 Armor bonus: 1000 gp, +3000 gp; +5000 Gp; +7000 gp; +9000 gp.
+1 Shield bonus: As +1 Armor
+1 Natural Armor: 2000 gp; +6000 gp; +10000 gp; +14000 gp; +18000 gp.
+1 Deflection bonus: As Amulet of Natural Armor
+1 Dexterity bonus: 4000 gp (Dex +2); +12000 gp (Dex +4); +20,000 gp (Dex+6)
Mithral Armor (Total bonus +2): Light, +1000 gp, Medium Armor +4000 gp, Heavy armor +9000 gp:
+1 Defender on Weapon used for defense: 8000 gp; +10,000 gp; +14,000 gp; +18,000 gp; +22,000 gp. (ending at +5 Defender)

Now, we simply take them and add them on in series.

If your starting Dex is 20 and you wear light armor; Immediately buy a chain shirt.
If your starting Dex is 17 and you can wear Medium Armor, buy a breastplate.
If your Starting Dex is 13 or lower, buy Full Plate.
Note that if you are a Fighter, you need to increase the minimum Dex for Mithral by your Armor Training bonus.

Base:
Chain Shirt, 19 Dex = +8 AC
Breastplate, 17 Dex = +9 AC
Full Plate, 13 Dex = +10 AC

Bonuses are listed in the order you add them, with Defender bonuses last as an optional (you should take them before similar items if possible). Basically, you want Deflection before anything; Dexterity next; and Nat Armor and Armor Enhancements equally. This is because the prior two affect your Touch AC (so does Defender) and the latter do not.

Add Cost AC Total GP Total
Mithral Light Armor 1000 (+2) (+1000)
+1 Armor Enhance 1000 +1 1000
+1 Ring of Prot 2000 +2 3000
+1 Natural Armor 2000 +3 5000
Mithral Medium Armor 4000 (+2) (+4000, Dex 20)
+2 Armor Enhance 3000 +4 8000
+2 Dex Gaunts 4000 +5 12000
Mithral Heavy Armor 9000 (+2) +9000, Dex 17+
+3 Armor Enhance 5000 +6 17000
+2 Ring/Prot 6000 +7 23000
+2 Natural Armor 6000 +8 29000
+4 Armor Enhance 7000 +9 36000
(+1 Defender) (+8000) (+1*)
+5 Armor Enhance 9000 +10 45000
+3 Ring/Prot 10000 +11 55000
+3 Natural Armor 10000 +12 65000
(+2 Defender) 10000 (+18000) (+2*)
+4 Dex booster 12000 +13 77000
+4 Ring of Prot 14000 +14 91000
+4 Natural Armor 14000 +15 105000
(+3 Defender) 14000 (+32000) (+3*)
+5 Ring of Prot 18000 +16 123000
+5 Natural Armor 18000 +17 141000
(+4 Defender) 18000 (+50000) (+4*)
+6 Dex Booster 20000 +18 161000
(+5 Defender) 22000 (+72000) (+5*)

Totals: Light Armor: Mithril Studded Leather +5, Dex 24 = AC 36, 162k
Medium Armor: Mithral Breastplate+5, Dex 20 = AC 36, 165k
Full Plate: M. Full Plate, Dex 16 = AC 37, 170k
Fighter Armor Training +4
Note: Needs +5 Dex (level/inherent) on all!
Mithral Chain Shirt, Dex 30. AC 40.
Mithral BP, Dex 28, AC 41
Mithral Full Plate, Dex 24, AC 42

Mithral is basically needed to max out Dex bonus for Dex builds. For fighters, Armor Training basically means their Dex will seldom be high enough to max out their armor.

Using an off-hand weapon as a Defender adds 72,000 gp to the defense cost, but the +5 AC is significant.

For Shield builds, the cost is negligible (+25000 gp for a +5) and the AC is significant (+6 or 7), resulting in a much quicker rise in AC.

ADD Add’l COST AC TOTAL TOTAL COST
+1 Armor Enhance 1000 +1 1000
+1 Shield Enhance 1000 +2 2000
+1 Ring of Prot 2000 +3 4000
+1 Natural Armor 2000 +4 6000
+2 Armor Enhance 3000 +5 9000
+2 Shield Enhance 3000 +6 12000
+2 Dex Gaunts 4000 +7 16000
+3 Armor Enhance 5000 +8 21000
+3 Shield Enhance 5000 +9 26000
+2 Ring/Prot 6000 +10 32000
+2 Natural Armor 6000 +11 38000
+4 Armor Enhance 7000 +12 45000
+4 Shield Enhance 7000 +13 52000
+5 Armor Enhance 9000 +14 61000
+5 Shield Enhance 9000 +15 70000
+3 Ring/Prot 10000 +16 80000
+3 Natural Armor 10000 +17 90000
+4 Dex booster 12000 +18 102000
+4 Ring of Prot 14000 +19 116000
+4 Natural Armor 14000 +20 130000
+5 Ring of Prot 18000 +21 148000
+5 Natural Armor 18000 +22 166000
+6 Dex Booster 20000 +23 186000

Assuming use of a Heavy Shield for +2 AC, at 12k layout you’re +3 AC ahead of the Shield-less build. At 50k you are +4 ahead. At 100k you are +5 ahead, at 150k you are +6 ahead, and you max out at +7 ahead.
Note that if you put Defender on your shield, and simply don’t attack with it, the numbers can look something like this:

Light Armor: AC 47, 52 with Defender
Medium Armor: AC 48, 53 with Defender
Heavy Armor: AC 49, 54 with Defender.

And all this is before Dodge, Shield Specialization, and incidental bonuses from spells, templates, defensive fighting, and whatnot. Note that to max Dex from Armor Training, any fighter is going to need Inherent bonuses to his Dex, unless he raises Dex instead of Str.

If he does both, then he probably wants a lighter grade of armor to max out the Dodge-based bonus of Dex, which is more effective against touch/ranged touch attacks.

==Aelryinth


Aelryinth wrote:

Light Armor: AC 47, 52 with Defender

Medium Armor: AC 48, 53 with Defender
Heavy Armor: AC 49, 54 with Defender.

At what Lvl. are those stats expected?


Probably 20th, because of how much money we are talking about.


ok. Do you guys have any more ideas other then healing stuff?


What else are you trying to do that you have problems with?


Feats everybody should probably get such as toughness.

Dark Archive

I don't necessarily recommend toughness for many. It's a good feat, but most melees have better things to do. Just get a solid con.

Feats everyone needs is too broad. Few melees won't eventually get power attack, an archer without point blank/precise is rare, Druids will have natural spell, Rangers (and probably Druid, since Feather domain > animal companion) will take Boon companion.

Archery types have their line picked out... PBS, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, once they can get them Multi and Cluster shots. Two-weaponers are similar (TWF, Double Slice or Weapon Finesse, Improved, etc).

The rider will want mounted combat and Spirited Charge as quickly as possible.

Summoner-specialists will want Spell focus/augment. If possible the feat that makes summoning one's own alignment a standard (cleric summoners rock because of this, especially LG clerics).

Only magi-types or strict supports have the room for toughness. And often thanks to them getting targeted by opposing casters I recommend save feats over toughness (.02).


Theos, I think you are trying to learn too much at once. The best way to master the system is to learn it in chunks. Find the one thing you want to get better at right now and focus on that. There isn't a single spell or feat or skill that every character should have. Some, like Perception, are certainly things to put high on your list of priorities, but none are absolutely necessary.

Have you figured out why you are losing so many characters yet? Maybe you should post your last few characters (in separate posts) so we can see a part of the picture. Then tell us how they died. This might help us give you better information. Right now we're all over the board because we don't really know what the problem might be.


The other thing about making viable characters is learning your group's playstyle. Certain GMs will throw certain things at you, and if you want your character to survive their campaign, you have to learn what your GM is likely to throw at you. Some GM's will make players make Fortitude saves for just camping out on a chilly night. Pay attention to what skills your GM makes you roll, skills like Perception and Survival vary greatly between GMs. Despite what the "standard playstyle" is supposed to be, there are many GMs who don't usually throw more than 1 battle per session. There are some who limit what spells one can attain.


I agree with Bob. You're biting off too much here. Focus on learning how to build one style of character really well. By the time you figure out the best way to build any one class, you should be starting to understand some stuff in general about the system and what works the best. From there, pick a second, very different kind of character and try to build it out as best as you can. Through doing this bit by bit you'll gradually pick up on different facets of the system and figure out some things you can generalize to different builds as well.

Have you read the "Ultimate Archer" thread? That's a great example of how much thought can go in to just making an archer...and there's like 10 different really good builds and ideas in that thread that are really good. What do they have in common? What makes them good? (And people actually argue about these and present the views from different angles, it's a solid read, actually). It's that kind of learning from others and group thought that really helps build system mastery. If you can read that and really understand everything that's going on and the WHY behind it, then you'll be a big step in the right direction....and then you can go learn about two-handed fighters, mounted combat, spellcasters, or whatever the next step is.


Exactly. For example i have a pretty decent halfling monk/ninja specialized on trip with a whip and being invisible. Now my GM adapted and has some guys say "faerie fire" and "harm", what takes my char nearly out of game. Next town will be a shopping tour for a wand of dispel.

It´s best to focus on one class and a suiting feat line first.

Dark Archive

If survivability is your biggest goal, hard to beat the oath of Vengence pally. Great saves, free healIng, great AC, good hp... they are TOUGH to take down. And built right, have good damage output too. For even better survivability, take him as archer

Halting Oath Pally (20 points)

Str: 13 (7)
Int: 7 (-4)
Wis: 8
Dex: 18 (10) -other bumps
Con: 12
Chr: 17 - 1st bump

1) PBS 3) Precise 5) Rapid 7) Multishot 9) Deadly Aim

By 7, you'll get 4 shots, and have an insane to hit (+10 before any magic is taken into consideration). And about 8 times per day you can smite for an extra +5 to hit / +7 damage on all of those attacks. Oh, and +5 on all saved (1 from Halfling, 4 from pally). Your AC should be in the mid 20s as well

Solid and strong, great damage and tricks.


Thalin wrote:

If survivability is your biggest goal, hard to beat the oath of Vengence pally. Great saves, free healIng, great AC, good hp... they are TOUGH to take down. And built right, have good damage output too. For even better survivability, take him as archer

Halting Oath Pally (20 points)

Str: 13 (7)
Int: 7 (-4)
Wis: 8
Dex: 18 (10) -other bumps
Con: 12
Chr: 17 - 1st bump

1) PBS 3) Precise 5) Rapid 7) Multishot 9) Deadly Aim

By 7, you'll get 4 shots, and have an insane to hit (+10 before any magic is taken into consideration). And about 8 times per day you can smite for an extra +5 to hit / +7 damage on all of those attacks. Oh, and +5 on all saved (1 from Halfling, 4 from pally). Your AC should be in the mid 20s as well

Solid and strong, great damage and tricks.

And you get to roleplay being a complete and utter moron without even common sense who strictly adheres to a code! Your fellow players at the table will LOVE you if you actually roleplay this character how his stats say he should be played.... (that and you'll have the reputation of a guy who dumps TWO stats, which I've found is pretty looked down upon in many settings, but YMMV).


Blue Star wrote:
Probably 20th, because of how much money we are talking about.

You can do that at 15th, but that leaves you with a +0 att/dmg enhancement sword (its defending) and very little else equipment-wise. Probably a cloak of resistance +5 and some other knick-nacks. I doubt you could even justify flying or speed boots.


Theos Imarion wrote:
I am not very good at min maxing or optimizing and it's bothersome for me because I want my characters to survive more often can people tell me how to optimize/min max please?

Well... according to my brother...

First, you need to develop an @n@! retentive @$$ hat personality. Second, you spend more time than you can afford poring over the books and rules until you are in danger of failing your classes (or losing your job). Third, you develop an ADHD obsessive compulsive like condition where you constantly make new characters on every scrap of paper you can lay your hands on. Fourth... You get the idea. I think he was just jealous of my characters supreme awesomeness.

-----------------------------------------------

To the OP:

Seriously, I wouldn’t say I’m necessarily great at it, but I’m fairly good at least sometimes. Way back when, several of us got good at it because we were in a group that enjoyed very lethal adventures. To have any real chance of surviving, (let alone succeeding) you had to have pretty effective characters. So it became a matter of motivation and experience. Every time your character died, you had to make another. Raises were very hard to arrange. When you got a good one he would last a bit longer, so you could tell what worked.

The other thing I did (I used to have a whole lot more time on my hands than I do now), was experiment. Make up a party of 4 characters. Run them quickly through a purchased module being the DM and all the players. Did the PC’s have enough skills to make the necessary checks? Did they have a pretty good chance of finding/disarming the traps? Did the weapon guys usually hit with their weapons and do enough damage when they did? Did the casters have spells with enough of a difficulty to affect the opps? Were the squishy guys durable enough to survive a couple hits until the tanks/healers could rescue them?

The first time I TPK’ed myself at less than the halfway point. So I had to look at what didn’t work. They were not durable enough. In today’s terminology I made a whole party of really crystalline glass cannons. They did huge amounts of damage, had piles of skills, or magic out the wazoo. But no defense to speak of.

Next time of course I did the exact opposite. Part that was hard to kill, but couldn’t accomplish anything.

After that I learned a had to find a middle ground between the extremes. I also learned some things you could do but only if the whole group cooperated. You can sometimes use glass cannons if you also have a tank so they can pull back and heal when needed.

I have to say that I'm not as good at it as I used to be just because I haven't had the time to run experiments like that since 3rd Ed. Things have changed enough that I don't know all the rules and possiblities as well as I used to.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

That basic array of AC/defensive gear comes in at a little under 1/4 your level 20 Wealth.

It's not meant to indicate that. It's meant to tell you IN WHAT ORDER to upgrade your AC for maximum cash efficiency. That's optimizing AC.

It also leaves out things like the +1 AC Ioun Stone, and various feats, as well as save boosters.

As an example, what is better for you - A Mage Armor spell (+4) or bracers of AC +5?

It's very counter intuitive, but no mage should get bracers +5 or better until their very last items. Why?

Let's ignore arguments like Cloaks of Displacement and miss chances. A Mage Armor spell is +4 AC for 0 Cost. A set of +5 Bracers is 25k for +ONE MORE AC.

25k gold for +1 AC is the MOST expensive single boost to AC for any class. You should get all your other AC boosters before you bother with Bracers +5 or greater, and just rely on Mage Armor. Sure, sure, if you average the +5 to +8 bracers, it's 'only' 12k a point...but that first point of AC is killer.

Get all your other stuff first, and you'll be happy.

Now, if the Mage Armor spell didn't exist, Bracers would be a great buy for AC. In short, the spell skews the cost value.

This is the kind of thing that the others mean by system mastery. Someone might grab bracers +4, ignoring the fact they can get that +4 AC for nothing or close to it, and could spend the 16k on two or three other boosters for a higher AC.

===Aelryinth


Bob_Loblaw wrote:

Theos, I think you are trying to learn too much at once. The best way to master the system is to learn it in chunks. Find the one thing you want to get better at right now and focus on that. There isn't a single spell or feat or skill that every character should have. Some, like Perception, are certainly things to put high on your list of priorities, but none are absolutely necessary.

Have you figured out why you are losing so many characters yet? Maybe you should post your last few characters (in separate posts) so we can see a part of the picture. Then tell us how they died. This might help us give you better information. Right now we're all over the board because we don't really know what the problem might be.

Then for know I shall not keep asking questions until something comes up in a game, thank you all for helping.


Theos Imarion wrote:
Bob_Loblaw wrote:

Theos, I think you are trying to learn too much at once. The best way to master the system is to learn it in chunks. Find the one thing you want to get better at right now and focus on that. There isn't a single spell or feat or skill that every character should have. Some, like Perception, are certainly things to put high on your list of priorities, but none are absolutely necessary.

Have you figured out why you are losing so many characters yet? Maybe you should post your last few characters (in separate posts) so we can see a part of the picture. Then tell us how they died. This might help us give you better information. Right now we're all over the board because we don't really know what the problem might be.

Then for know I shall not keep asking questions until something comes up in a game, thank you all for helping.

Keep asking questions, just focus them a bit more so you don't have a bunch of advice that you aren't going to need. What character are you going to play next? Maybe we can help with that.


I've already posted a hyper link on the board but here you go druid


Druids are not my forte.

Keep asking questions though. I hope you didn't think I was telling you to stop seeking answers.


k


@Bob_Loblaw what about a fighter sorry it took so long.


I'm actually pretty good at building fighters. I'll post my ideas there.


k thanks


I'm working through the CRB at a friends house, I learned that rangers get uncanny dodge and that great cleave only has to hit to continue cleaving.


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So thanks guys you hit the nail on the head with not knowing the rules well enough.

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