To be honest, if I walked into your store and you told me I couldn't use my laptop, tablet, smartphone, etc., and the watermarked PDF's I've bought and were encouraged to by Paizo it would be the last time I walked into your store. That just strikes me as a close minded pre-digital era way of thinking. In fact, it's the kind of thinking that prevents progressive movements like this.
Now, that said. If I were you, understanding the issues with pirating. If you're wanting to enforce that. Just make everyone that has a device, show you the...
Edited to remove my snark.
But 'close-minded pre-digital era way of thinking?' Speaking of snark...
And I'm still gonna take issue with describing a gaming club -- admittedly a spiffy one -- as a 'progressive movement.'
Use of digital resources can be good... and not-so-good.
My own personal take on that matter is that there's little worse than a table-full of laptops for a game. Is own, personal take, so don't ruffle your gadgets. But something is lost when everyone is staring into their screens.
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And I'm still gonna take issue with describing a gaming club -- admittedly a spiffy one -- as a 'progressive movement.'Use of digital resources can be good... and not-so-good.
My own personal take on that matter is that there's little worse than a table-full of laptops for a game. Is own, personal take, so don't ruffle your gadgets. But something is lost when everyone is staring into their screens.
The "progressive movement" is moving away from dead tree, expensive, easily lost, and destroyed content like books within our hobby.
We still require a paper sheet, no one likes being handed a laptop to check a sheet. The laptops typically are away until a rule needs looked up. No need to have it out, if you're not actually using it.
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I would be interested in what the response would be if I showed up with my character sheet, my CRB, and printed pages from my watermarked pdf to reference the stuff from other books? Would that be acceptable at that store? I don't suppose I would even get the chance to test my question, but since it's legal, honestly, it would take the organizer/store owner to tell me that playing within the rules is not good enough for them. Sure it's their choice, but at that point, its the last time you would see me at that store. And that would be a shame for the store since my annual gaming budget is quite hefty.
The "progressive movement" is moving away from dead tree, expensive, easily lost, and destroyed content like books within our hobby.
We still require a paper sheet, no one likes being handed a laptop to check a sheet. The laptops typically are away until a rule needs looked up. No need to have it out, if you're not actually using it.
Ah. This is one of those irreconcilables. I LIKE my dead tree, thanks. [I'd prefer my dead weed, when the gov't gets off its high horse regarding hemp, but 'til then I'll take my tree.]
Expensive I'll grant you, but last for years -- I have yet, in 31 years of RPGing to have lost or destroyed a gamebook. I've sold 'em, given 'em away, but that's it. Maybe I'm a paragon of archival acumen...
And my version works at least 4 hours a day with no power [that'd be during an Alaskan winter; further south, hours get longer].
Finally, it's my experience that gadget-addicts WILL have their laptops OUT, regardless of their paper copies, and are positively huffy about putting them away when it's pointed out that we don't have room left for the freakin' MAP.
Could be I've just had rotten luck with the gadgeteers to which I've been exposed, but they seem rather typical of the breed, as I've experienced them.
And I've always been quicker flipping real pages than electronic ones; probably more a reflection on the state of my computer skills than a real indictment of PDF's... but I'm never gonna be a fan of digital storage. Awkward, hard to read, and even MORE fragile than paper.
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I think this is something we need to be mindful of as technology increases and our hobby learns how to make better use of it all. There is already a huge shift in the Atlanta area with the prevalence of iPads showing up at our game days. And Wolf Lair is working on an iOS version of their popular Hero Lab software, so soon there will be more incentive for people to shift towards tablet PCs in gaming. Combine that with Paizo offering PDFs on the cheap, and you have a recipe for a technological revolution in table top gaming. Not to say that anything needs to be added to the Core Assumption now because of it, but I wouldn't be surprised to see 5 years down the road things changing because of the assumption and prevalence of low cost technology in how we play our games.
Sorry for kind of getting off topic, but this discussion reminded me of an interesting talk Erik Mona gave about the future of the industry.
/Yeah, I know.
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Just don't take the dice outta my RPG...rolling digital dice is just no substitute for rolling those wonderful little chunks of plastic (or whatever).
I don't allow digital rollers. Programs can be altered or designed from the get go to be cheaters. At least with a die it can be handed to me, and I can tell if it's loaded or is missing a number and added one.
Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant
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My cousin and her husband both got ipod touches a year or so ago. They were excited because they could get dice rollers for it. They used them for a while, (we were playing 4e at the time) and guess what? They're back to real dice. Didn't matter that the program was pretty cool, and could roll a hundred dice, or that it could even be programmed for specific attacks/damage rolls. It just couldn't compare to the feel of real dice being rolled. :)
I feel that way about paper books... I hate reading off a screen. I love the practiced ease of flipping to just the right place in an honest book. The digital versions don't cut it... and I can't use most laptops as a substitute desk.
[I wouldn't mind electronic dice, save for the fact that I will not own a 'smart' phone... and real dice are fun. You can tell a lot about a person from the dice they use, how they organize them (IF they organize them).]
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Just don't take the dice outta my RPG...rolling digital dice is just no substitute for rolling those wonderful little chunks of plastic (or whatever).Can I T10 with digital dice?
(ARRRGGG! that slipped out. sorry. Missed a will save. Again.)
Chuck Norris can Take 10 with ANY kind of dice, whether he rolls them or not. I'm not sure whether he can do so while threatened or distracted, though, as he's never actually been threatened or distracted.
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"Hey, if you're interested in the book, I can get you the PDF for free. How? I give you $10 off the copy you buy from me, then you go get the PDF from Paizo using that $10. When you're on their site, make sure to register for Pathfinder Society. Which, by the way, we run 4 times a month. Want a schedule?"
You, sir, are my hero today.
Chuck Norris can Take 10 with ANY kind of dice, whether he rolls them or not. I'm not sure whether he can do so while threatened or distracted, though, as he's never actually been threatened or distracted.Just don't take the dice outta my RPG...rolling digital dice is just no substitute for rolling those wonderful little chunks of plastic (or whatever).Can I T10 with digital dice?
(ARRRGGG! that slipped out. sorry. Missed a will save. Again.)
YOU, sir (and/or madam?), are a very wrong little green... person.
:P
Oh, it's not that I didn't LAUGH; but I laugh at all the wrong things anyway!
:)
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I'm opposed to adding to the GM assumption. It is a barrier to entry for new GMs, both in expense and time. It is a barrier to flexibility; "Hey Joe, can you run 08-57 Death of the Society? It only needs the following list of GM assumption books...gotta bingo card?"
That said, some existing modules include elements from outside the GM assumptions without rules text for them, which can be annoying. A nice project would be a player driven project to assemble the rules sources for each module in an OGL or Community Use Policy document covering classes, races, spells, feats, playing aids, rarely used rules, location info from the Inner Sea Guide and/or the culture specific guides, etc.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I'd just like to say that I'm getting into GMing and don't have the Bestiary. It's never been an issue; I just look up the stats ahead of time when I prep the scenario. The few times I've had to run a scenario cold due to a GM no-show, I've been fortunate enough to not need to reference anything (all stats were in the scenario). But I know I'd have been able to borrow a Bestiary from somebody if I really needed to.
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Maybe my usual PFS group is not representative of how things usually are, but all of us carry the books from which we draw the features of our characters.
That's right. All of the players bring the APG and many of them UM/UC as well.
The GM doesn't though AFAIK as they are not part of the core assumptions.
Thus, if you add the APG to the core assumptions, instead of having 7 people (the players) carrying it around, you will only have 1 (the GM).
Also, when we have several GMs available and playing at different tables, it is the players who move around while the GMs stay where they are. Thus those who have made the effort to bring the heavy books also have to carry them from table to table. Once again, I do not know if this is a standard policy in other places. It is just the way things are with my group.
Anything that can reduce the load I (and other players) have to carry around will be greatly appreciated.
Adding the APG to the core would be one such solution. Other good solutions have been shown in this thread.
I am all for making digital support legal, even though I realize that some people will not like the solution. Thing is that whatever solution is found, it cannot be the perfect one for every case.
Thanks in advance for reducing our burden.
PS : one possible solution would be that someone at the table must bring the heavy books. This way, only one person has to carry them, rather than several. In places where it is almost always the same people who come to play, the load could be shared between several people. In big conventions, though, it would need to be the GM who brings them.
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Maybe my usual PFS group is not representative of how things usually are, but all of us carry the books from which we draw the features of our characters.
That's right. All of the players bring the APG and many of them UM/UC as well.
The GM doesn't though AFAIK as they are not part of the core assumptions.
That all sounds right to me. Having said that, I don't think anyone would have a problem (although I wait to be proven wrong) if for example two friends/relatives/partners playing together at the same table, one with a gunslinger PC, the other with a ninja PC, shared one copy of UC.
Thus, if you add the APG to the core assumptions, instead of having 7 people (the players) carrying it around, you will only have 1 (the GM).
Are you implying that the players know the rules well enough to not need to refer to the book during the session? Or do they also have the rules on a digital device? If I (as the GM) bring a book to a session, it's not to loan out to the players.
Also, when we have several GMs available and playing at different tables, it is the players who move around while the GMs stay where they are. Thus those who have made the effort to bring the heavy books also have to carry them from table to table. Once again, I do not know if this is a standard policy in other places. It is just the way things are with my group.
When I GM, I have to travel to the venue just like the players. As well as all the books in the core assumption (including the Bestiary), I have my Tact-Tiles (weight: 6 lbs), GM screen, ring binder (of errata, SORD, pregens, character sheets, etc.), notepad, dry wipe pens, miniatures, dice, the scenario, handouts, etc. If there's one person already carrying more than their fair share, it's the GM.
Anything that can reduce the load I (and other players) have to carry around will be greatly appreciated.
Build simpler characters? ;)
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I support not including the APG to the GM Core Assumption. I hope to pick that book up someday, but it isn't in the discressionary spending budget at this time. Even when that should change, I sympathize with all those that are in a similar situation, but have the talent and desire to GM to add that additional burden to their requirments to GM is not conducive to supporting newer and younger players.