We are discussing the orange ioun stone now. I agree with him on the prayer beads.
I see. Well we'll see where that goes.
Regarding the beads... I think that the +4 would certainly to apply to the spell casting... and the effects generated by the spell you just cast? The case may be closed for you, but it is still open for me.
Gate? Tarrasque? What? ?_?By your logic, why not? We have the +4 from the prayer beads, +1 from the ioun stone, nothing says they don't stack so let's see where else we can get some caster level bonuses from...gate is conjuration, so conjuration specialist, throw on a moon circlet during a full moon, come on, there must be others, let's keep digging!
You want to let crazy in your game, let us follow it to it's logical conclusion.
You already said you can make a mini one with simulacrum, right? That is allowed in your game and who needs the extra hit points they lose with all of the other special abilities...
But how do you gate in Big T? He's not an outsider. O_o
For the record, Big T isn't that scary. He's just a pain to kill. Incidentally, a simulacrum of Big T isn't quite as hard to kill. For one thing, it turns into a pile of snow when its HP hits 0 or less, so that pretty much ruins its unkillable regeneration. :P
We are discussing the orange ioun stone now. I agree with him on the prayer beads.I see. Well we'll see where that goes.
Regarding the beads... I think that the +4 would certainly to apply to the spell casting... and the effects generated by the spell you just cast? The case may be closed for you, but it is still open for me.
Maybe if the devs answer we can get a response for the beads and the ioun stone. That would be nice also.
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Maybe if the devs answer we can get a response for the beads and the ioun stone. That would be nice also.We are discussing the orange ioun stone now. I agree with him on the prayer beads.I see. Well we'll see where that goes.
Regarding the beads... I think that the +4 would certainly to apply to the spell casting... and the effects generated by the spell you just cast? The case may be closed for you, but it is still open for me.
Indeed. If you pop a spell at +X CL, it should apply to all aspects of the spell. For example, if you cast ray of enfeeblement the penalty caused still persists after the spell itself has been cast, because the spell functions based on the caster level it was cast at.
If you have a spell that is ongoing but the caster dies, or is level drained, or some other effect that lowers his or her caster level, the spell that is already going doesn't suddenly change its effect.
You cast gate at +4 CL, then you cast gate as a CL+4 caster. If you're CL 18, then you cast the spell as a 22nd level caster. All effects based on CL use 22 to determine the effective caster level.
At least, I can't find anything in the rules to suggest otherwise.
A spell's power often depends on its caster level, which for most spellcasting characters is equal to her class level in the class she's using to cast the spell.
You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.
In the event that a class feature or other special ability provides an adjustment to your caster level, that adjustment applies not only to effects based on caster level (such as range, duration, and damage dealt), but also to your caster level check to overcome your target's spell resistance and to the caster level used in dispel checks (both the dispel check and the DC of the check).
Since it affects all level dependent effects, as well as noting all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level, it seems clear to me that casting a spell at +4 CL means casting it at +4 CL. All effects of the spell are based on the CL it was cast at.
I agree this is another faq'able grey area.
There is no such thing as "actual caster level" or "effective caster level," there is only caster level, and yes, with enough bonuses to caster level gate allows 17th level clerics to control solars. How is that any more insane than wish, miracle, or time stop?
Was made for this! :P
3/day = 15 rounds of uninterrupted awesome. Freakin' awesome in the hands of a sorcerer, who can burn 3 time stops back to back to back without sweating it. Muahahahahaha.
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Gate? Tarrasque? What? ?_?By your logic, why not? We have the +4 from the prayer beads, +1 from the ioun stone, nothing says they don't stack so let's see where else we can get some caster level bonuses from...gate is conjuration, so conjuration specialist, throw on a moon circlet during a full moon, come on, there must be others, let's keep digging!
You want to let crazy in your game, let us follow it to it's logical conclusion.
You already said you can make a mini one with simulacrum, right? That is allowed in your game and who needs the extra hit points they lose with all of the other special abilities...
But how do you gate in Big T? He's not an outsider. O_o
Easy, you plane shift to a place where he is an outsider, gate him, then plane shift back.
I can play crazy, too.
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There is no such thing as "actual caster level" or "effective caster level," there is only caster level, and yes, with enough bonuses to caster level gate allows 17th level clerics to control solars. How is that any more insane than wish, miracle, or time stop?
Easy. You actually read those three spells and run them as written.
The fact that people actually think the Devs intended 18th level clerics to be able to gate Solars with a single magic item...
Again, this is why the Devs can't let us have nice things and this is why many people (myself included) have very closed groups.
Gate? Tarrasque? What? ?_?By your logic, why not? We have the +4 from the prayer beads, +1 from the ioun stone, nothing says they don't stack so let's see where else we can get some caster level bonuses from...gate is conjuration, so conjuration specialist, throw on a moon circlet during a full moon, come on, there must be others, let's keep digging!
You want to let crazy in your game, let us follow it to it's logical conclusion.
You already said you can make a mini one with simulacrum, right? That is allowed in your game and who needs the extra hit points they lose with all of the other special abilities...
But how do you gate in Big T? He's not an outsider. O_o
Easy, you plane shift to a place where he is an outsider, gate him, then plane shift back.
I can play crazy, too.
Ah, okay, I see what you mean. I was thinking that Gate could only be used to gnab outsiders, but it's just any extraplanar critter. Actually, yeah, sure, that would work. Hm, but you'd need caster level 30. Even with prayer beads, ioun stone, circlet, and trait bonus, I imagine that would be pretty difficult. You could actually grab him and pull him through at CL 15 though (before you can even cast Gate normally). Might be a good way to try and remove him from a plane. Perhaps create a demiplane, then gate him from the material to the demiplane, perhaps? I think the general assumption is he's a unique creature, which means he could simply ignore you. Maybe lure him through the gate, perhaps?
Hmmm...talk about improperly disposing of your garbage. It would probably be a great act of goodness if you dropped him on Asmodeous' doorstep or something. Let the denizens of hell deal with Big T for a little while? At least until they stamp "return to sender" on him and mail him back. XD
EDIT: Actually that would be kind of funny, and rather sensical. Nobody can actually kill Big T, so they keep trying to hoist him off on some other plane, like a giant game of interplanar hot-potato. "Damnit, he's eating me out of house and home! Take him back!" says Asmodeus, before sending his lackies to transport Big T to that drunk god's doorstep. Later, drunk god decides Big T is consuming way too much of his awesome booze, he he boots him to the Boneyard. Pharasma gets irritated because she can't kill Big T either and he refuses to die, so she throws a hissy fit like the moron she is and throws him to the material plane in hopes that he might just gobble up lots of undead while she pretends free will exists in a universe already completely planned out before her. Meanwhile, the Terrasque slaughters millions, then takes a nap. Later, he wakes up and stomps through Korvosa like he had a nightmare and needs a drink of water, which is when he gulps up most of the bay. The PCs are all like "ಠ_ಠ Do not want!" and have to figure out how to toss him off the plane...
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There is no such thing as "actual caster level" or "effective caster level," there is only caster level, and yes, with enough bonuses to caster level gate allows 17th level clerics to control solars. How is that any more insane than wish, miracle, or time stop?Easy. You actually read those three spells and run them as written.
The fact that people actually think the Devs intended 18th level clerics to be able to gate Solars with a single magic item...
Again, this is why the Devs can't let us have nice things and this is why many people (myself included) have very closed groups.
As written, after an 18th level cleric pops a prayer bead he has 10 minutes of caster level 22. Not "effective caster level," not "pretend caster level," not "caster level for invocation, necromancy and enchantment but not for conjuration, transmutation or divination", just caster level 22.
If you don't want your player characters summoning and controlling solars at level 18 with that one magic item, don't give them that freaking magic item, its that simple. Seriously. "Prayer beads don't exist in this world." Done. Its over, no need to change the rules, no need to make stuff up about "actual vs. effective caster level" its just done.
Hell, I just showed how you can do it at 17th level, which I am sure is exactly as the Devs intended it to work since nothing says they don't stack.
I'm sure that is exactly how the devs intended it. That and summoning Genies and forcing them to cast wish for you.
Yup. Those Devs...always making sure the spam is warm and tasty when mixed with cheese.
As to not giving them magic items, that would just be cruel. (Also, difficult since craft wondrous item is a thing.)
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Gate? Tarrasque? What? ?_?By your logic, why not? We have the +4 from the prayer beads, +1 from the ioun stone, nothing says they don't stack so let's see where else we can get some caster level bonuses from...gate is conjuration, so conjuration specialist, throw on a moon circlet during a full moon, come on, there must be others, let's keep digging!
You want to let crazy in your game, let us follow it to it's logical conclusion.
You already said you can make a mini one with simulacrum, right? That is allowed in your game and who needs the extra hit points they lose with all of the other special abilities...
But how do you gate in Big T? He's not an outsider. O_o
Easy, you plane shift to a place where he is an outsider, gate him, then plane shift back.
I can play crazy, too.
Ah, okay, I see what you mean. I was thinking that Gate could only be used to gnab outsiders, but it's just any extraplanar critter. Actually, yeah, sure, that would work. Hm, but you'd need caster level 30. Even with prayer beads, ioun stone, circlet, and trait bonus, I imagine that would be pretty difficult. You could actually grab him and pull him through at CL 15 though (before you can even cast Gate normally). Might be a good way to try and remove him from a plane. Perhaps create a demiplane, then gate him from the material to the demiplane, perhaps? I think the general assumption is he's a unique creature, which means he could simply ignore you. Maybe lure him through the gate, perhaps?
Hmmm...talk about improperly disposing of your garbage. It would probably be a great act of goodness if you dropped him on Asmodeous' doorstep or something. Let the denizens of hell deal with Big T for a little while? At least until they stamp "return to sender" on him and mail him back. XD
I am not sure where to even begin...
No, I'll just let your post stand, because the fact that you are actually ok with the unbelievable twisting of the rules I just proposed speaks more strongly for my position than any response I could make.
The Tarrasque is definitely a unique being, and as such it doesn't have to come through your Gate.
And honestly, I really don't see the distinction that you are making ciretose. How does the caster level in "you can control it if its HD does not exceed your caster level" from Gate differ than the caster level in "You may also bring one additional willing Medium or smaller creature or its equivalent per three caster levels" from Teleport? Because I'm really not seeing it.
Or are you saying that prayer beads wouldn't let me teleport 1 additional creature, either?
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The Tarrasque is definitely a unique being, and as such it doesn't have to come through your Gate.
And honestly, I really don't see the distinction that you are making ciretose. How does the caster level in "you can control it if its HD does not exceed your caster level" from Gate differ than the caster level in "You may also bring one additional willing Medium or smaller creature or its equivalent per three caster levels" from Teleport? Because I'm really not seeing it.
Or are you saying that prayer beads wouldn't let me teleport 1 additional creature, either?
1. Depending on your setting, it actually isn't.
2. Nope. That is a spell effect, which is what effective caster level is for determining. The spell in gate is opening the gate. If what you bring through is under your control is a separate issue, adjudicated based on your caster level.
At the end of the day, as long as a Dev comes in here and says "It is utterly ridiculous for you to be able to spam the rules like that" I am ok with whatever the ruling is.
Because that is the base issue here.
Hell, I just showed how you can do it at 17th level, which I am sure is exactly as the Devs intended it to work since nothing says they don't stack.
Well 17th level isn't much different than 18th. Truthfully, PC power doesn't change much from 17-19th, until 20th when classes are grabbing that capstones (which aren't created equal it seems).
I'm sure that is exactly how the devs intended it. That and summoning Genies and forcing them to cast wish for you.
Genies...granting wishes...the horror! :o
Not like you really have to twist their arm about it. 2 for 1? Sure why not. If I was a genie and someone wanted me to take 18 seconds out of my day and would make a wish on my behalf? Sure, what am I really losing here? At least it's not 3.x wish, where the wishes actually, y'know, gave people money and magic items. :PYup. Those Devs...always making sure the spam is warm and tasty when mixed with cheese.
As to not giving them magic items, that would just be cruel. (Also, difficult since craft wondrous item is a thing.)
Hm, still not seeing much of a problem here. If you house rule out an item, it means you can't craft it either. Or you could take the extra simple route and just raise their HD to 26. Or say Solars are considered a form of lesser deity, and while not unique, may ignore the calling. I mean if you're really worried about it that much.
Also, without cheese, a 17th level wizard can kill a Solar in a strait fight. Not easily mind you, but it can be done. Solar has the best chances though, but a wizard can beat its initiative, bust time stop, wind shield, spam summon monster VII to keep the solar busy for a moment, -7 to all saves, dominate monster. The trick is overcoming SR, which is about a 55% chance if you're specced to penetrate SR, or 65% chance if you're an elven wizard. Pretty solid chance the Solar will fail the saving throw. Alternatively, heightened baleful polymorph or similar can end that fight too.
Just throwing that out there. Not saying the 17th level wizard has good chances of winning. Just that he could. Better chances with a party though.
The Tarrasque is definitely a unique being, and as such it doesn't have to come through your Gate.
And honestly, I really don't see the distinction that you are making ciretose. How does the caster level in "you can control it if its HD does not exceed your caster level" from Gate differ than the caster level in "You may also bring one additional willing Medium or smaller creature or its equivalent per three caster levels" from Teleport? Because I'm really not seeing it.
Or are you saying that prayer beads wouldn't let me teleport 1 additional creature, either?
1. Depending on your setting, it actually isn't.
2. Nope. That is a spell effect, which is what effective caster level is for determining. The spell in gate is opening the gate. If what you bring through is under your control is a separate issue, adjudicated based on your caster level.
At the end of the day, as long as a Dev comes in here and says "It is utterly ridiculous for you to be able to spam the rules like that" I am ok with whatever the ruling is.
Because that is the base issue here.
What if he agrees with my ruling on the orange ioun stone, not that I get to make official rulings, but still.
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People have been prayer bead gating in Solars in 3.0 since 1999, this thread makes me laugh.
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2. Nope. That is a spell effect, which is what effective caster level is for determining. The spell in gate is opening the gate. If what you bring through is under your control is a separate issue, adjudicated based on your caster level.
Are you really saying that the controlling the outsider is not at all a part of the "spell effect" of Gate? Because by that logic, I can walk up to any outsider and control them if I have a higher "actual CL" than their HD. And I'm pretty sure that that's not the intent. So the controlling aspect must be a part of the spell effect of Gate. I just envision it as forming some sort of instantaneous bond with the creature that let's you control it if you have a higher CL than their HD at the time of the casting.
I am not sure where to even begin...
No, I'll just let your post stand, because the fact that you are actually ok with the unbelievable twisting of the rules I just proposed speaks more strongly for my position than any response I could make.
We could begin with the fact Big T is a walking plot device that is disguised as a monster. Gating him somewhere assumes that he's either willing or not unique. Actually controlling him is not possible in the current rules, to my knowledge, without being around level 25 or so, and being a cleric (you'd need closer to 29 as a mage). Big T isn't actually that dangerous to even a mid level party, he's just nigh unkillable. Avoidance isn't particularly difficult if you can fly and/or teleport away. He's just a pain in the butt.
Likewise, a story arch involving playing hot-potato with Big T actually sounds like something suitable for a party of 17th+ level characters to work on. Luring the critter off world, away from where he might return, or cause problems for another world. Might be the start of a beautiful planar adventure that spans multiple dimensions as the party literally takes Big T on a whirlwind adventure. A planar exodus if you will, to a place where he can run and live wild, while eating everything in sight. Maybe the elemental plane of bacon or something (<- this is a joke).
Or maybe the forces of evil have decided to play really dirty, and so they've simulacrumed some tarrasques to form the bulk of their forces. Posed with no other choice, the PCs must race to discover the ancient location where the Tarrasque slumbers, and rouse him, not to destroy the world, but to save it from his own carbon copies. The PCs lead the rampaging Big T to the ultimate showdown between Asmodaeus and his army of Simulacrumed Big Ts being ridden by Pit Fiends, while the party swoops in and begins fighting the Devils while Big T devours the fake Ts, while Bard be Rockin' Theme Music.
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Calling people names and being incredibly flabbergasted won't change what is possible. Having the common sense not to do it in your game is up to the gaming group.
People have been prayer bead gating in Solars in 3.0 since 1999, this thread makes me laugh.Yes, cheese monkey players with crappy GMs who have no backbones have been cheese spamming since first edition, and making the rest of us cringe.
The question is if it is sanctioned or not.
Please, insult people more. I don't think you've made enough blanket insults in this thread yet.
People have been prayer bead gating in Solars in 3.0 since 1999, this thread makes me laugh.
Haha, I know. Tell me about it. :P
Also, nice to see another veteran of the old 3E. ^-^ *brofist*Remember when Haste let you move up to x2 speed and still get your full attack on, and gave +4 to hit, AC, and Reflex saves? 3rd level spell. Ah, those were the days. /grognard
What if he agrees with my ruling on the orange ioun stone, not that I get to make official rulings, but still.
Again, the question is do the Devs want you to be able to gate in creatures that are more powerful than the party as a standard action.
If they do, fail Devs at game balance.
Then the flood gates open up as to which spells the ioun stone counts for and which ones it does not allow you to bypass caster level for, unless you saying Gate should be an exception to the rule, but they are more likely to say it does work, since by level 20 gating in a 21 HD monster as opposed to a 20HD monster won't make much difference.
The prayer bead ruling I can see going your way, but for I don't think there is even an implied actual caster level vs effective caster level anywhere in the game unless the item or feat spells out specific restrictions such as "you gain +1 caster levels when casting spells with the fire descriptor". Otherwise the CL is always on.edit:by your way I mean your interpretation.
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Calling people names and being incredibly flabbergasted won't change what is possible. Having the common sense not to do it in your game is up to the gaming group.
Everything is possible. It is a made up world.
The question is what is permitted, and what is reasonable.
If your DM lets you cheese spam the hell out the rule book, and that is how you like it, good on you.
But don't pretend it ain't cheese spam and try to sell it as RAI.
Remember when Haste let you move up to x2 speed and still get your full attack on, and gave +4 to hit, AC, and Reflex saves? 3rd level spell. Ah, those were the days. /grognard
All with your 13-20 crit flachion
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What if he agrees with my ruling on the orange ioun stone, not that I get to make official rulings, but still.
Again, the question is do the Devs want you to be able to gate in creatures that are more powerful than the party as a standard action.
If they do, fail Devs at game balance.
Then the flood gates open up as to which spells the ioun stone counts for and which ones it does not allow you to bypass caster level for, unless you saying Gate should be an exception to the rule, but they are more likely to say it does work, since by level 20 gating in a 21 HD monster as opposed to a 20HD monster won't make much difference.
The prayer bead ruling I can see going your way, but for I don't think there is even an implied actual caster level vs effective caster level anywhere in the game unless the item or feat spells out specific restrictions such as "you gain +1 caster levels when casting spells with the fire descriptor". Otherwise the CL is always on.edit:by your way I mean your interpretation.
I wouldn't say flood gates are going to open when I don't think most people here realized there was a distinction until a few hours ago.
I wish the Devs didn't have to rule on such silly things.
I mean seriously, it is clear the intent was to have you be able to control something less powerful than you, not more powerful.
When even that base logic is being questioned by some people...
Boosting caster level is easy if you don't mind investing the resources. I have a "master dispeller" that blows away people's spells and spell buffs with quickened greater dispel magic--resulting in their being stun-locked and suffering up to -10 penalties to their saves against my next spell.
Take the following for example:
+01 orange prism ioun stone
+02 Varissian Tattoo (with Spell Perfection)
+04 Spell Specialization (with Spell Perfection)
+04 prayer beads (temporary bonus)
=11 TOTAL CL above and beyond the average Joe caster.
My 17th-level cleric can gate in a 28 HD outsider. 20th-level character gets a 31 HD demigod. Say hello to my little friend!
*Cthulu appears*
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Somethings are not RAI or against RAI. They just are.
It would have to be valid or invalid even outside of Gate for it to be a rule for most people. Something not working well or too well with a certain ability does not make it non-RAI, but at the same time that does not mean a GM should allow it.
Chain-binding Genies is cheese, but also legal. I guess what I am saying is that if the reason you don't think the ability should work is because you can pull in solars, that does not make it non-RAI. If you think it fails even if dealing with a lower CR, but higher HD monster then that is different because then it is a rules issue being argued.
Is it necessarily a good thing to be able to control a monster that is powerful enough to possibly be a boss fight? Nope. That however does not make it a illegal.
At the same time if the players think the solar is going to be at their beck and call just because they have 10,000 gp to drop then he might visit them when is not being gated. The rules allowing a player to make him into a pet does not mean the GM should.
RAi doesn't exist, because most of the rules are written by multiple people, with no idea of what someone else in another department is thinking. We are just worshiping crop circles and attempting to find their hidden meaning :)
All with your 13-20 crit flachion
Remember when Haste let you move up to x2 speed and still get your full attack on, and gave +4 to hit, AC, and Reflex saves? 3rd level spell. Ah, those were the days. /grognard
Haha, yeah man. Geez, there's a reason people didn't complain martial characters were underpowered in 3.0. It's because they were beast, and the Fighter was often seen as the most beastly of all! They were more mobile, and scarier, and their damage actually mattered.
*Vrrroooom-ching-ching-ching-swoosh-splat* <- Sound of a 15th level Fighter moving at double speed and then slashing an opponent up with his +3 keen falchion full-attack. Haste didn't give an extra attack unless you were standing still (to use the extra standard to attack again), but being able to move and contribute was sooooo sexy.... @_@
Could you imagine the outcry on these boards if they brought back 3.0 haste? "THE FIGHTERS KEEP KILLING ALL MY NPCS!! WAAAAAAGH!"
Heehee.
What if he agrees with my ruling on the orange ioun stone, not that I get to make official rulings, but still.
Again, the question is do the Devs want you to be able to gate in creatures that are more powerful than the party as a standard action.
If they do, fail Devs at game balance.
Then the flood gates open up as to which spells the ioun stone counts for and which ones it does not allow you to bypass caster level for, unless you saying Gate should be an exception to the rule, but they are more likely to say it does work, since by level 20 gating in a 21 HD monster as opposed to a 20HD monster won't make much difference.
The prayer bead ruling I can see going your way, but for I don't think there is even an implied actual caster level vs effective caster level anywhere in the game unless the item or feat spells out specific restrictions such as "you gain +1 caster levels when casting spells with the fire descriptor". Otherwise the CL is always on.edit:by your way I mean your interpretation.
I wouldn't say flood gates are going to open when I don't think most people here realized there was a distinction until a few hours ago.
I wish the Devs didn't have to rule on such silly things.
I mean seriously, it is clear the intent was to have you be able to control something less powerful than you, not more powerful.
When even that base logic is being questioned by some people...
The intent might be to control something equally or less powerful, but that still does not mean the caster level is to be ignored to keep the fluff of the spell.
A clause stating that the class level of the character may not exceed the HD or CR* of the monster under any circumstances would have been an easier thing to write in than leave it a caster level and then give CL boosting items, and feats.*The devs normally use HD.
Boosting caster level is easy if you don't mind investing the resources. I have a "master dispeller" that blows away people's spells and spell buffs with quickened greater dispel magic--resulting in their being stun-locked and suffering up to -10 penalties to their saves against my next spell.
Take the following for example:
+01 orange prism ioun stone
+02 Varissian Tattoo (with Spell Perfection)
+04 Spell Specialization (with Spell Perfection)
+04 prayer beads (temporary bonus)
=11 TOTAL CL above and beyond the average Joe caster.My 17th-level cleric can gate in a 28 HD outsider. 20th-level character gets a 31 HD demigod. Say hello to my little friend!
*Cthulu appears*
Hahaha. I'm pretty sure Cthulu is a unique creature...but...do you really want Cthulu to appear? :P
I mean seriously, it is clear the intent was to have you be able to control something less powerful than you, not more powerful.
When even that base logic is being questioned by some people...
The spell you're looking for is Summon Monster IX which summons a creature less powerful than you but still useful, and doesn't require you to sacrifice a medium magic items worth of goodies for 1 round/level of service.
Are you really saying that the controlling the outsider is not at all a part of the "spell effect" of Gate?Are you actually saying the devs intended for a 17th level cleric to be able to gate and control Solar?
Let us get to the root of the question and not get lost in hyperbole.
I really don't find it any worse than being able to Animate a 24HD zombie with a single casting of desecrate and animate dead at 6th level (and a paltry 650gp). Or hell, the fact that you can already bring in an outsider with a higher CR than you with planar binding and planar ally by default. These both are not debated part of the rules.
There are already areas open to rules exploitation, even before you get into the ridiculousness that 9th level spells opens up. The thing is, as a GM you either have to make that social contract with them to not go out of their way to break the system, or you have got to reign them in yourself. They want to Gate in a Solar? Sure. But that Solar is the right hand angel of some deity. If he was in the middle of leading a war, or on some other important mission for his god, than the Solar and his god aren't going to be too happy. There will be consequences for that. Especially if you abuse this all the time.
Or if that's not okay with that option, but you still really want to fix Gate and it's ilk, house rule the conditions for servitude more than just some paltry offering fee. Sure that Solar will come fight for you. But for every day it follows your commands, you have to spend a year following his.
But don't just invent a whole new category of "temporary CL" and "actual CL" because I'm worried about the effects that such a ruling would have on the game at lower levels (and not the ridiculous 17+). Not to mention how difficult it would be for people to distinguish between the two, since "actual caster level" isn't ever used in any of the spell language.
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So we have one side saying "Remember back in the good old days when the rules were really broken, that was AWESOME!"
And we have the other side saying, "Really, can we just rule that you can't summon and control the Titans at 17th level."
I feel like I'm going to be citing this thread regularly in future discussions...
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I was citing this thread before it was cool ;)
So we have one side saying "Remember back in the good old days when the rules were really broken, that was AWESOME!"
And we have the other side saying, "Really, can we just rule that you can't summon and control the Titans at 17th level."
I feel like I'm going to be citing this thread regularly in future discussions...
That is not what I am saying. I am saying there is nothing rule wise or precedence wise to indicate that the gate spell using the term "caster level" should get to be a rules exception when nothing else in the game does.
I really don't find it any worse than being able to Animate a 24HD zombie with a single casting of desecrate and animate dead at 6th level (and a paltry 650gp). Or hell, the fact that you can already bring in an outsider with a higher CR than you with planar binding and planar ally by default. These both are not debated part of the rules.
Yeah man, animate dead is awesome. Don't forget death knell prior to casting (chickens are only 2 cp after all). I once GMed for a party of all-clerics (themed party), and all of them were sporting animate dead at 5th. Wowzers, they were awesome. It was funny, since every enemy was kind of like treasure. Their eyes lit up when they killed a hydra. "Ooooohhhhh....hydra skeleton..."
So we have one side saying "Remember back in the good old days when the rules were really broken, that was AWESOME!"
Nah, remembering back to the good ol' days when people didn't complain that martials were underpowered, because they were still killing stuff like they were back at level one.
Remember at level 1, when you can move + attack and kill the orc in 1 round. Well we remember when a 20th level Fighter could move + attack and kill the 20th level monster in 1 round.
That was more of a 1st ed thing, when the ancient red dragon had 88 hp.
Back on topic, how many level 18 adventures are you playing in with a cleric with prayer beads that this becomes an issue? There is so much craziness at high levels its easy enough to ignore.
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Are you really saying that the controlling the outsider is not at all a part of the "spell effect" of Gate?Are you actually saying the devs intended for a 17th level cleric to be able to gate and control Solar?
Let us get to the root of the question and not get lost in hyperbole.
I really don't find it any worse than being able to Animate a 24HD zombie with a single casting of desecrate and animate dead at 6th level (and a paltry 650gp). Or hell, the fact that you can already bring in an outsider with a higher CR than you with planar binding and planar ally by default. These both are not debated part of the rules.
There are already areas open to rules exploitation, even before you get into the ridiculousness that 9th level spells opens up. The thing is, as a GM you either have to make that social contract with them to not go out of their way to break the system, or you have got to reign them in yourself. They want to Gate in a Solar? Sure. But that Solar is the right hand angel of some deity. If he was in the middle of leading a war, or on some other important mission for his god, than the Solar and his god aren't going to be too happy. There will be consequences for that. Especially if you abuse this all the time.
Or if that's not okay with that option, but you still really want to fix Gate and it's ilk, house rule the conditions for servitude more than just some paltry offering fee. Sure that Solar will come fight for you. But for every day it follows your commands, you have to spend a year following his.
But don't just invent a whole new category of "temporary CL" and "actual CL" because I'm worried about the effects that such a ruling would have on the game at lower levels (and not the ridiculous 17+). Not to mention how difficult it would be for people to distinguish between the two, since "actual caster level" isn't ever used in any of the spell language.
You didn't answer my question.
Are you actually saying the devs intended for a 17th level cleric to be able to gate and control Solar?
Everything else is beside the point. If you don't believe that, then you don't allow this without basically saying "I don't care what they people writing the rules intended, I want to exploit this loophole."
What I find annoying is the pride people take at manipulating made up rules in a made up rules against the intent of the people who wrote the rules they are manipulating.
Exploiting a loophole in a made up world isn't something to be proud of, in my opinion. You are trying to cheese out things at a table of friends in a made up world, in direct conflict with the intent of the people who wrote the rules you are "following".
So it comes down to this. Either you think the Devs meant for this to be possible, or it is a loophole.
If it is a loophole, close it. For me, it is that simple.
In my opinion I don't think the Devs ever intended for increased caster level to apply to these types of spells, but not being omniscient and underestimating the depths some people will stoop to in order to "win" at imaginary game land....
My railing against it stems entirely from the fact that I know now the Devs are going to have to be even more narrow in the future, because if you give some people rope, this happens...
Again, why we can't have nice things...
I have some good GMs in my group, firm hand for balance while being open to creative ideas that don't effect balance. We've successfully run broken systems like Aberrant thanks to a group understanding of trying not to exploit broken sections, and rather to try to play RAI.
That system concept, even with the improved Green Ronin version, is limited because some people will always try to rules lawyer exploits out of systems, and so they have to narrowly rule on what can and can't be in the system...and even then...
If we can't even agree that the Devs didn't intend for you to summon and control a creature that would easily kill the party were it an encounter, we are not dealing with people attempting to make a reasonable argument.
But we have nice things. We've been able to spend 10,000 gp (or 1,000 XP) to gate in a solar to save our butts for 3 editions now. It's not been a secret. People have talked about it on the WotC boards, GitP boards, the Paizo boards. Even the ability to gnab wishes was actively discussed during the playtests in Alpha and Beta.
Wanna know what changed?
Wish got nerfed. :3
Chain gating was removed. :D
Can we still gate solars to save our bacon when the poop hits the fan? Yep.
We has nice things.
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Well considering they felt that HD 42 Zombies and Skeltons were fair game at lvl 17 i consider it a possibility.
And thats assuming desecrate doesnt let you max a single creature which would put it at HD 84.
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Well considering they felt that HD 42 Zombies and Skeltons were fair game at lvl 17 i consider it a possibility.
And thats assuming desecrate doesnt let you max a single creature which would put it at HD 84.
Considering a 28 HD Zombie is only a CR 9 and a 20 HD skeleton is 8, it isn't as problematic to me.
YMMV.
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ciretose, I haven't made any comments whatsoever about what the devs intended or what is or is not appropriate for what the Gate spell should permit from a RAI point of view- you are absolutely correct.
I only wanted to make the following points:
- I can find no distinction between "actual CL" and "temporary CL" in the rules, or even see these terms listed anywhere.
- 9th level spells are ridiculous
- Defining new terms or "fixing mechanics" that effect the entire game because of just one of those ridiculous 9th level spells, is in and of itself, ridiculous
- If you have a problem with Gate, FIX GATE. I mentioned some simple ways you could potentially handle it.
That's my entire argument. Don't change, or redefine how CL works just because you believe it interacts poorly with one 9th level spell.
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Hey, ciretose, let me jump in here and mention that there are a lot of places in the rules where unintended side effects come into play. Gate and a boosted caster level might be one of these places.
But that should be handled in a rewording of the spell itself.
The argument seems to be that the hd of creatures you can control through the gate spell shouldn't be affected by a boosted caster level.
Is it part of the spell text? Then it's part of the spell, and your boosted caster level is still your caster level when casting the spell.
I have no problem calling gate out specifically as needing a cap to the hd of a creature you can call through. That's a pretty easy fix too, and what I think we should do here. However, trying to set some effects as being related to effective caster level and other effects as being related to base caster level is just extremely messy and likely to cause much confusion.
There are always players who try to abuse rules gaps, and loopholes. There are also plenty of players who don't even see using these things as abuse of any kind. It depends on your group, as always.
However, on the forums a lot of these things pop up as thought puzzles, not as something that would actually appear in a game. In part, it helps to find areas that need errata, or special clarifications.
But, just as an aside, there are plenty of character builds that as an encounter would wipe most parties. My personal favorite at the moment is the ninja unarmed strike sap mastery builds. That, by itself, isn't a good measure of what is and isn't intended. Heck, that's a bragging point for many wizard builds.