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THE FOLLOWING IS A TRUE STORY, ACTORS HAVE BEEN USED TO PROTECT THE INNOCENT :)
I remember my very first character I played for ADnD in 1979.
I imagined him as a great Viking Warrior, muscles bursting out of his scalemail armour, a battleaxe and large round shield, he was going to be "Awesomeness" personified ... ERIK the Viking, there would be tales written by the Skalds of his adventures
Then I rolled my stats 6 x 3d6, with the stats being allocated to whichever stat you liked ...
S 12, I 9, W 10, D 11, Co 10, Ch 9
I almost cried ... meanwhile, another fighter (a friend of mine playing his Jamaican based fighter, Ceti Wayo) rolled his dice:
S 18/92, I 10, W 9, D 16, Co 18, Ch 10
He had rolled two 18's and a 16, the then rolled 3 x 10's for HP and at 3rd level (our starting level for this game) gave him 42hp.
I tried to let the disappointment roll over me and I rolled my HP, 4 + 3 + 2 for a starling 9hp ;(
This story does have a happy ending however, we were playing Bone Hill and a Ghoul wiped the whole party and we rerolled characters ... I then got one 17 and a hand full of average numbers and made myself a Cleric who went on to retire at level 16 ...
I just hope this points out how destructive randomly generating stats can be... when they are great, it's great -- but when you roll bad, it is truly awful.
Points buy is the best system as it allows all players to be fantastic in a stat, pretty great in a couple of stats or well rounded in all stats ...
Just my 1 copper piece worth - though if you want it, it's down in the pit with Erik and the Ghoul ... :)
with 3d6 you should be happy to get nothing below 9.
Also, it's fun to play low powered people. The problem is that you put ability scores in your character description that you didn't have, or to put it dashier "your mind wrote checks your dice couldn't cash".
I would have liked to play the unlucky robber, or disgruntled townguard with your stats.
It gets even more interesting if you fix a roll to a stat before you've rolled.
Well anyhow, I can understand that in some campaigns average Joes are not an option, and every character is destined to godhool upon birth.
So your example from 1979 (I admit I wasn't even born then, not by a long shot) might be a good argument for some players, but there are those that like the challenge of the citizen fighting to survive.
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I love playing broken characters, they provide the most planning and role playing, and that is why I will sometimes make myself have stricter rolling rules then needed
Hello, my name is Gilman, and I rolled stats in the 80's.
Hi Gilman
I once DM'd a game with a character who rolled a 3 wisdom. The player roll-played him well, having to be saved by his fellow players from trading his long spear for some pocket lint. Things went okay until the party came to an illusory wall. The poor bastard couldn't make his save. Kept knocking his head against the wall even after he saw people walk right through it. He shook hands with the other players and said, "Have a great time moving on to the end of the adventure."
I'll never make my players roll stats again. Unless I'm in a really bad mood.
Okay, actually I would like to try a game with rolled stats again sometime if I could find players mature enough to accept the dice as they fall. In old school days I let people roll a set of stats and they could pick from the list in any order but they had to take the list as is - no rearranging stats. Player death was inevitable and expected at low levels, but the group I played with always had fun. Sometimes I'd let them run two characters each at first level, with the expectation that at least one of them would die. The players would voluntarily drop the character they liked less if they both made it to 5th level or so.
Um, edit to the above, make that 'character' death. I never caused the death of my players. Please don't send the police after me.
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I still have my players roll stats and I roll them in the games I play in if given the choice. I like discovering my PC that way.
I don't doubt that the player rolled those stats, I have seen it happen. With the vast number of characters generated over the years, it is inevitable.
Additionally, several series of dice are not exactly what I would call regular.
(For the records, according to my calculations, 'fair dice' would yield a .006% chance, or 1 in 16800 for 2x 18 and 1x 16 in six rolls... which goes to a .000006% chance for getting those stats plus 3 10s in 3 HD rolls; a solid 100 times the chance you got, Chobemaster. Hmm...)
1 in 16.8 million is about the probability to win the lottery here.
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Try this stat generation method:
Play an e6 game. The first time a character dies, note down that level. Then do that two more times and add the three numbers together. This is your Strength score.
Do this five more times for your other ability scores, playing a new e6 campaign for each.
I allow the group to pick any player's set to avoid this exact problem.
But that defeats the purpose of rolling stats, which is to ensure that some players are at a permanent systematic disadvantage.
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I allow the group to pick any player's set to avoid this exact problem.But that defeats the purpose of rolling stats, which is to ensure that some players are at a permanent systematic disadvantage.
That's not THE purpose of rolling stats, that's YOUR purpose for rolling stats.
Everyone picks the second set. Big deal. What about the player that wants three average scores? He's stuck with that 15 and 18, and has to sacrifice whatever third score he wants. Unless he wants to take that first set and bump the 13 up with a racial bonus. But then he has to deal with the 8 and the 9. That's a disadvantage.
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The first time I saw point buy I was a convert but I still like rolling dice. Sometimes when I am stuck for a character idea I will 3d6 in order and play what the dice reveal. Then I use point buy to simulate that.
I have run a few one shots where you roll 3d6 in order and take whatever character you get. Running the 2nd edition game where the party had two 1st level clerics with 9 wisdom because those were the highest wisdoms rolled by the group was hysterical. Back then you could still cast spells but a 9 wisdom gave you a 20% spell failure chance. Watching two clerics try to heal the fighter and fail got a good laugh out of everyone. Of course, it was a one shot and we knew the PCs would be awful. In a campaign it could get frustrating fast.
Having played since 79 also I have played a lot of games where you rolled 3d6 or 4d6 in order and tried to make the best of it. It worked in 1st and 2nd edition because other classes had a hard time overshadowing your class abilities. But one in a while you got a case like the original post and eventually that person's character ran into a dragon's mouth yelling "top of the world, Ma!" just so he could roll up a new one. I had fun then and I still have fun now in games where I need to roll.
We did have a similar situation in our last campaign though. The monk rolled great 18, 17, 16 etc. The fighter rolled crap 15, 12 11 etc. The fighter could have been human instead of dwarf to help his str but he chose dwarf. So the monk absolutely overshadowed him in damage while flurrying with his temple sword. The cleric and I would always buff him to help bring him up to speed.
OP
I 100% percent disagree, I actually dislike Point buy. with point buy you are limited, you can only have one good stat and if you want more than one good stat you have to sacrifice another. point buy screams "Average". For me and me only I enjoy rolling 4d6 and pick the highest Our dm even lets re-roll ones. you can get a really awesome monk with 4d6 roll off or a really terrible monk with the 4d6 roll off but if you point buy you get a really "average" monk with possibly a 14 to Dex and maybe if you sacrifice Int you you can get a 16 to wis. besides if you roll incredibly crappy 9's across the board any dm who makes you play that character is a "Richard" the point of the game is to be a hero not a zero, obviously you shouldn't roll until you have get all 18's (we all have played baldurs gate. but a fair an even DM will let you re roll a set of rolls if you rolled nothing but 9's.
I haven't read every post posted here so please forgive me if i am repeating my self, I am also a crazy conspiracy theorists who does not think that the Monk is MAD. I think the monk is RAD.
EDIT:the above is with a standard 15 point buy system I once forgot what the standard number was and let my players roll a 35 point buy and pick an extra +_2 to any stat...it was pure BBEG murder all the day long.
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I'm going to play the Devil's Advocate for you. Myself, I can't roll stats to save my life, so I was once a fervent believer in the point-buy method. Unfortunately, at some point along the path, the point-buy became very optimized. I think people unconsciously (some very consciously) optimize their characters abilities, leaving most classes looking the same with their stats.
To combat this in my games, I have went back in time to the old 24d6 method. This allows you to place a number of dice on each stat (minimum of 3d6) as long as it all adds up to 24d6. Then, you roll the dice per stat, keeping the highest 3 rolls. I also allow my players to reroll if they don't have a net stat bonus of +8.
While nothing new, it has a very interesting effect on the roleplaying. You might get an 18 STR from 6d6. You might only get a 14. It also places randomness in the other attributes. Your fighter placed 3d6 in INT, but might end up with an 18 there. Suddenly, instead of a blah fighter with the same as every other two-handed fighter, you might end up being a tactician. Or heaven forbid a fighter that actually has Charisma!
So, while I definitely understand (and sympathize!) with why people like the point-buy system, I really suggest giving the 24d6 method a try. It produces some unique roleplaying opportunities that might never come to light otherwise, and makes the munchkin-ing (that's a word, right?) a little more difficult. Just my two coppers.
BY 4d6 i mean roll 4 d6's and pick the 3 highest. not take all 4 dice.
I'm going to play the Devil's Advocate for you. Myself, I can't roll stats to save my life, so I was once a fervent believer in the point-buy method. Unfortunately, at some point along the path, the point-buy became very optimized. I think people unconsciously (some very consciously) optimize their characters abilities, leaving most classes looking the same with their stats.
To combat this in my games, I have went back in time to the old 24d6 method. This allows you to place a number of dice on each stat (minimum of 3d6) as long as it all adds up to 24d6. Then, you roll the dice per stat, keeping the highest 3 rolls. I also allow my players to reroll if they don't have a net stat bonus of +8.
While nothing new, it has a very interesting effect on the roleplaying. You might get an 18 STR from 6d6. You might only get a 14. It also places randomness in the other attributes. Your fighter placed 3d6 in INT, but might end up with an 18 there. Suddenly, instead of a blah fighter with the same as every other two-handed fighter, you might end up being a tactician. Or heaven forbid a fighter that actually has Charisma!
So, while I definitely understand (and sympathize!) with why people like the point-buy system, I really suggest giving the 24d6 method a try. It produces some unique roleplaying opportunities that might never come to light otherwise, and makes the munchkin-ing (that's a word, right?) a little more difficult. Just my two coppers.
That might be fun to try sometime, consider it yoinked. (I am thinking for my next campaign, I was going to let the players vote on the stat generation method, either 20 pt. buy, 3d6 with everyone selecting an array that is generated, and now this one will be an option.
I liked the randomness in old-school D&D, the stat rolls pushed you into a class, I remember WANTING to play a Ranger at 6th grade Safety Patrol Camp, The DM, one of the counselors, had us rolling 3d6 in order, and miraculously I rolled a ranger, meeting all the minimal requirements for the class. Then we played Keep on the Borderlands...Too bad we didn't get to play long enough to finish it...but it WAS fun.
Probably the best thing point buy does is avoid cheating. My first two campaigns I played in way back in the pre-history of the game had two totally different GMs. One was a rules stickler GM and we had to roll characters under his watchful eye. My results were pretty good, I got an intelligence of 17 and so made a wizard, and a strength of 16 and so made a fighter, and those were my first two characters. The other GM basically gave us stats to use. He liked to run heroic games so he gave us crazy arrays. I have a monk he gave an 18 str and 15s in all other stats. Every character in his games had at least one 18 in their primary stat.
I do prefer rolling dice to using a point buy. I use point buy or a standard array for all my NPCs though. My last two characters I rolled up were using the 4d6 drop lowest approach and even then my first roll was so bad the GM told me to roll again. My second roll ended up with an equivalent of, I think, a point buy of 38.
I do agree that the point buy system tends to end up with nearly identical stats for characters and so I get bored with it. But it is probably the most fair, and the hardest to cheat.
You could combine rolling dice and point by doing something like even 2d4+10 points as the expectation of the 2d4 is 5 and then you have this distribution in points so you don't have the same array every single time but somewhat similar. you have a 1/16 chance of 12 points a 1/8 chance of 13 points a 3/16 chance of 14 points a 1/4 chance of 15 points , a 3/16 chance of 16 points a 1/8 chance of 17 points and a 1/16 chance of 18 points. This has some variation but still is not wide disparity in power level. THis is a compromise though.
You almost cried over character scores in a game? It was "destructive"?
It also appears the problem solved itself, so I don't see any "destruction" at all.
Also, 2 18's, a 16, and 10 for HP 3 times is .00000006% likely. I think you "got took." ;)
I've got a buddy who can roll ON AVERAGE 15s per stat. He doesn't preposition the dice. I and others have given him different dice to roll. He just picks it up and rolls. It makes zero sense. I would describe an example of his typical array as such: 17, 16, 15, 15, 12, 10. It's so frustrating. Haha
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Hello my name is Pan and I rolled stats in the 90's.
Hi Pan
I understand that some people put an extreme amount of role play bank into the ability scores. My group has come to a place that puts ability scores a bit on the back burner and doesn't allow them to completely define their character. Now do not hit the reply button just yet. I will admit I have been fortunate so far and have not had the " I am a barbarian with 7 int and a brilliant military leader!" However I got ever so tired of people telling me that my character with 9 cha was ugly and rude and any number of undesirable qualities.
What does that have to do with rolling dice you ask? Well people telling me what my character is like and capable of gets worse if you roll Gomer Pile and they roll the universal soldier. It may be a nice role play opportunity for a lot of people but I hate being useless and in constant need of saving. Its like the Super Friends hired a normal janitor but call him part of the "team". Once again to each their own some people love that. Point buy has stopped this from happening for my groups and I couldn't be happier for it.
My other problem is I am too honest when it comes to rolling. A lot of people show up having rolled at home "really well". The GM ran me through the ringer but lets this guy just slide on by. Later we find out he used 5D6 drop lowest or some such. I want hard nosed rolling down the line. Where is this epic play I hear about? Nope every group has so many fail safes in place that rolling is virtually meaningless. Drop this, re-roll that, must average this, etc etc. To sum it up you may have as well just used point buy.
Hello my name is Pan and I rolled stats in the 90's.
Hi Pan
I understand that some people put an extreme amount of role play bank into the ability scores. My group has come to a place that puts ability scores a bit on the back burner and doesn't allow them to completely define their character. Now do not hit the reply button just yet. I will admit I have been fortunate so far and have not had the " I am a barbarian with 7 int and a brilliant military leader!" However I got ever so tired of people telling me that my character with 9 cha was ugly and rude and any number of undesirable qualities.
What does that have to do with rolling dice you ask? Well people telling me what my character is like and capable of gets worse if you roll Gomer Pile and they roll the universal soldier. It may be a nice role play opportunity for a lot of people but I hate being useless and in constant need of saving. Its like the Super Friends hired a normal janitor but call him part of the "team". Once again to each their own some people love that. Point buy has stopped this from happening for my groups and I couldn't be happier for it.
My other problem is I am too honest when it comes to rolling. A lot of people show up having rolled at home "really well". The GM ran me through the ringer but lets this guy just slide on by. Later we find out he used 5D6 drop lowest or some such. I want hard nosed rolling down the line. Where is this epic play I hear about? Nope every group has so many fail safes in place that rolling is virtually meaningless. Drop this, re-roll that, must average this, etc etc. To sum it up you may have as well just used point buy.
I agree that stat results are played in a very stereotypical manner similarly how 'chaotic neutral' players think they can be murderous psychopaths with impunity. 7 Charisma doesn't mean you're butt ugly. It could just mean you're a pushover in social settings. People have no imagination!
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THE FOLLOWING IS A TRUE STORY, ACTORS HAVE BEEN USED TO PROTECT THE INNOCENT :)
I remember my very first character I played for ADnD in 1979.
I imagined him as a great Viking Warrior, muscles bursting out of his scalemail armour, a battleaxe and large round shield, he was going to be "Awesomeness" personified ... ERIK the Viking, there would be tales written by the Skalds of his adventures
Then I rolled my stats 6 x 3d6, with the stats being allocated to whichever stat you liked ...
S 12, I 9, W 10, D 11, Co 10, Ch 9
I almost cried ... meanwhile, another fighter (a friend of mine playing his Jamaican based fighter, Ceti Wayo) rolled his dice:
S 18/92, I 10, W 9, D 16, Co 18, Ch 10
He had rolled two 18's and a 16, the then rolled 3 x 10's for HP and at 3rd level (our starting level for this game) gave him 42hp.
I tried to let the disappointment roll over me and I rolled my HP, 4 + 3 + 2 for a starling 9hp ;(
This story does have a happy ending however, we were playing Bone Hill and a Ghoul wiped the whole party and we rerolled characters ... I then got one 17 and a hand full of average numbers and made myself a Cleric who went on to retire at level 16 ...
I just hope this points out how destructive randomly generating stats can be... when they are great, it's great -- but when you roll bad, it is truly awful.
Points buy is the best system as it allows all players to be fantastic in a stat, pretty great in a couple of stats or well rounded in all stats ...
Just my 1 copper piece worth - though if you want it, it's down in the pit with Erik and the Ghoul ... :)
It looks like we began gaming right around the same time. We all have had that experience where we are not excited about the rolls our character has, and you buddy at the table gets those 17s and 18s.
but we have also had experiences where we rolled the 17s and 18s.
Point buy certainly has its advantages. It ensures everyone starts out with the same pool of points to draw from for their ability scores. everyone starts out on the same footing.
Point buy does have its draw backs however. the system heavily favors characters who only rely on one stat to function. The point buy system isn't nearly as good for making a character who relies on multiple ability scores.
So all in all i think it is good as a GM to have a choice between rolling dice and point buy for your game.
Besides its fun and exciting to roll those dice...especially if you get good rolls.
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Part of the history of the Dice Roll vs. Point Buy comes down to what we expect out of the game and ourselves.
The original system was the Dice Roll. You might get a great, overpowered character, you might get a useless schlub. That was part of the fun. What sort of character do you have? How are you going to get this guy to survive? Part of the challenge, part of the enjoyment is in how you'd be able to have this person, whoever he or she might be, survive over the course of many adventures. Although the all-high-stat characters were always popular and did a lot, for those of us who remember those days, let's face it--it was the lowly people who somehow survived by their wits (aka player skill) that were remembered the most fondly.
Back then, it was actually sort of fun not knowing if your next character would be a good fighter or magic-user. Not knowing if you'd be allowed to take an elf. It was like buying a pack of M:tG cards and knowing how to use whatever you ended up with. The random method showed you how to make a player's abilities in-game shine.
But that's not the only way to play. It's no good if you've got a character concept in mind. As characterization came to the forefront, the character creation methods needed to adjust. Also, let's admit it, there are limits to the amount of fun had if you're gimped by your ability scores. So, Point Buy. This lets you build who you want, and ensures that you aren't less powerful than your peers out of the gate.
One of the interesting side effects is how the expectation of player skill has shifted from how to act within the game, to how you play the meta-game of character building. I think there's an ideal balance between the two. You don't want to prioritize in-game play over character building to the point that we might as well just be moving identical chess pieces around. You also don't want to prioritize character building to the point that you spend all your time creating the character, then just set it on autopilot to grind through the dungeon while you get a snack.
Sometimes I like creating someone specific. Sometimes I like to leave that up to the fates. Sometimes I like to carefully pick exploits in a PC build. Sometimes I like to plan strategically in game. What's best?
That's what we have different campaigns for.
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Keep in mind that in the "old days" where you rolled 3d6 in order, a LOT of characters died quickly. So you got many chances to reroll characters.
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My 4d6-reroll-1s-drop-lowest laughs at your puny girly man point buy.
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Keep in mind that in the "old days" where you rolled 3d6 in order, a LOT of characters died quickly. So you got many chances to reroll characters.
Good point! You also didn't invest as much emotion in the 3d6 characters. Not until they survived a level or two, and had some accomplishments under their belt. By then, high stats mattered less, but high stats sure helped you to get there.
I like reroll rules if there's a too little combined ability mod but there should also be a reroll option for too high. This range can be adjusted as needed but I think a +4 to +10 would be a good all-purpose range, off the top of my head of course.
My 42-point-buy laughs at your average joe dice rolling.
42? You haven't played the game until you try 45 point buy. (And then scurry back to a far superior method.)
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Keep in mind that in the "old days" where you rolled 3d6 in order, a LOT of characters died quickly. So you got many chances to reroll characters.Good point! You also didn't invest as much emotion in the 3d6 characters. Not until they survived a level or two, and had some accomplishments under their belt. By then, high stats mattered less, but high stats sure helped you to get there.
I never considered a character back then to be "survivable" until they hit at least level 5. I've said before, my first wizard had a single hit point, but somehow managed to survive and is still in my bullpen after having converted to 2e, 3e, 3.5e and now PF. Just to clarify, that means that for his first level, which probably involved a dozen encounters, HE NEVER TOOK A SINGLE POINT OF DAMAGE.
That's how you used to play low level wizards.
102 Pt buy True Azlant group. 20s for all!
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Keep in mind that in the "old days" where you rolled 3d6 in order, a LOT of characters died quickly. So you got many chances to reroll characters.Good point! You also didn't invest as much emotion in the 3d6 characters. Not until they survived a level or two, and had some accomplishments under their belt. By then, high stats mattered less, but high stats sure helped you to get there.I never considered a character back then to be "survivable" until they hit at least level 5. I've said before, my first wizard had a single hit point, but somehow managed to survive and is still in my bullpen after having converted to 2e, 3e, 3.5e and now PF. Just to clarify, that means that for his first level, which probably involved a dozen encounters, HE NEVER TOOK A SINGLE POINT OF DAMAGE.
That's how you used to play low level wizards.
And that's a perfect example of what I mean by "player in-game skill." It's a rough world out there, and you'll only survive if you know how to, not because you're minmaxed to the hilt.
I miss dice rolling.
Its not really the thrill of the 18.. I can get one of those with PB easily enough.
No, rather, it was the sense of.. "Well, I got a 9 wisdom" or a 4.. or whatever, and that you were stuck with it, and then tended to RP the character around the stat.
You didn't choose it. You didn't want it. It wasn't even necessarily in a stat you wanted that low.. It just happened. And some of the most interesting characters I've *ever seen* were from those lousy die rolls.
PB does introduce predictablilty and even power levels- this is true. But it also introduced the planned- for dump stat. Usually, but not always, one that the character then simply ignores completely. "oh well, dumpoed cha.. didn't need it anyway"
"ah i'm a wizard.. who needs str? i can dump that.. and charisma"
I don't really miss ending up with a 13 in my primary stat.. but I do miss the RP that was forced from those "oh crap" stat rolls.
And, obviously, I realize I'm in the minority there :)
-S
And that's a perfect example of what I mean by "player in-game skill." It's a rough world out there, and you'll only survive if you know how to, not because you're minmaxed to the hilt.Keep in mind that in the "old days" where you rolled 3d6 in order, a LOT of characters died quickly. So you got many chances to reroll characters.Good point! You also didn't invest as much emotion in the 3d6 characters. Not until they survived a level or two, and had some accomplishments under their belt. By then, high stats mattered less, but high stats sure helped you to get there.I never considered a character back then to be "survivable" until they hit at least level 5. I've said before, my first wizard had a single hit point, but somehow managed to survive and is still in my bullpen after having converted to 2e, 3e, 3.5e and now PF. Just to clarify, that means that for his first level, which probably involved a dozen encounters, HE NEVER TOOK A SINGLE POINT OF DAMAGE.
That's how you used to play low level wizards.
LOL, well, you are kind. The truth is that my wizard ran and hid a LOT. I mean literally ran and hid. Level 1 for that party was almost wholly devoted to keeping the wizard alive because they wanted a wizard who could eventually cast fireball.
He even wore armor, which saved his butt a few times when a random arrow managed to find his hiding place.
At level 2 I rolled max for hit points (4) so with 5 hp he became much more survivable. But that first level was something.
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Running and hiding is a vastly underappreciated skill.
Well, there is some truth to that. One of the things I tell my players when I start a new campaign is that they will encounter some situations where they simply will have to run away. The world is dangerous and while I will do my best to tailor the campaign to their abilities, it's still an actual living breathing world, and if they go in the wrong cave, they better be able to realize they are outmatched.
Usually it takes at least one PC death before they realize I'm serious.
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Selgard:
Two of my favorite characters included a dwarf Fighter/Cleric with a Charisma of 4, and a Wizard with a Strength of 15 (might have been higher).
The dwarf was an utterly boring, smelly, disgusting boor who had no manners, hygiene, or sense of personal space, but he was always steadfast and kept around because he was just so useful. I knew I was playing him right when one PC had to be restrained from attacking me, in each adventure. The other players had fun just raining down insults on the guy--it was part of the charm.
The wizard was something else, because he would rush the front line nearly as often as cast spells. At one point, the PCs were suspended above a pit of boiling oil, and while the knight struggled with his bonds, it was the wizard that burst free, swung on his chain, brawled with the guards, and freed everyone. He was fun!