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I'm going to go outside my normal position of letting the player base police itself and say this. This post is directed at any person who wants to encourage cheating and breaking the rules. If you don't want to follow the rules we have established for Organized Play, then don't play our campaign. I have seen posts and advice that continuously encourage people to break the rules and this will stop. Are there some rules that can change to make the campaign better? Of course and we are working to fix those. Should people blatantly break the rules because they don't like them? Absolutely not. If you feel this is what you need to do, then leave the campaign. Encouraging people to intentionally break the rules is the same as encouraging cheating, especially playing outside of their tier, and it is not welcome and will stop.
This is not said in an angry or irritated tone. It is a matter of fact statement. Enough is enough.
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Mike, I know that was a very hard post for you to post, that is not something I have seen an PFS Organizer post in a long time, and I understand why.
I will be either the only one or one of the few to Thank you for posting it, though I know that was not your goal... ;)
Thanks You
I been saying those same words for a long time, even if I was not a fan of the rule I felt it was wrong to encourage breaking them. I always thought the best course was to have a discussing about the rules in question to bring to the PFS organizers attention instead of breaking them. I have to tell you I have become the Bad guy because of that, but I always felt it needed to be said, though at times I may have not said it well ;).
Also thank you for looking at the current PFS rules and working on making them better.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I concur.
It's easy to be sympathetic to a nice player in a bad situation. It's easy to decide to help her out by "bending" a rule you don't happen to like.
And then the next guy feels the same way, and does the same thing. And when that player becomes a GM or organizer, she follows the leadership of people who've helped her out.
And then there's really no rule there at all.
Colorado Jones indeed!
Well said Mike.
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I'm assuming he's referencing the recent 7-player table threads, as well as the threads that have mentioned where coordinators (not specifically V-Os) encouraging their judges to make changes to the scenarios.
Bascially if it's something you have to justify and defend as to why you're making the change.. it's probably not something you're supposed to be going in the first place. Making an honest mistake isn't cheating -- the first time it happens, continuations of that same "mistake" are cheating.
*** I am not Mike and am making huge assumptions in my post so if I'm wrong.. well ... I've got big shoulders I can take it***
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It is sad that this is needed, but I agree with you that it had to be done. I am not pointing fingers or naming names, partly because that would require me to re-read all the threads where bending or breaking the rules is suggested, but it does seem that lately that have been way too many posts or entire threads that violate the rules in the Guide. And it does not seem to matter whether it is a player or a GM doing it, as I have read both. Sure, some may seem harmless, like a GM not applying his GM chronicle right away, but others, like playing out of tier or playing up more than one sub-tier, or playing 8+ people at a table, are not good for the Society. And people can argue all they want about ruining a player's fun, but I think Spock said it best: "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."
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Where exactly is this post aimed at? Are we talking about players who cheat at dice, magic items, or class mechanics? Or are we scolding the GM's who are helping out a newbie player who made a wrong faction choice and did not realize it until their second outing?
I don't speak for Mike...
I think the idea of this post was for those GMs/Organizers who know the rules they have established for Organized Play but blatantly break the rules because they don't like them, then come on the boards encourage other people to intentionally break the rule for a variety of reasons.
Encourage could mean posting about it or complaining about the rule and saying this is what they do anyway even though they know that is not the rule.
This post is not directed at those that make honest mistakes but fix them afterwards.
Mike wants the issues people have with the rule brought here for discussion so he knows about them, he does not want people to mean while blatantly break them. Instead he wants everyone to have patience as he looks through the Org rules to come up with solutions where he sees there are problems that hopefully will fix some of the issues people have.
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Where exactly is this post aimed at? Are we talking about players who cheat at dice, magic items, or class mechanics? Or are we scolding the GM's who are helping out a newbie player who made a wrong faction choice and did not realize it until their second outing?
Of course cheating at dice, magic items, class mechanics, etc.. are included. It is spelled out in the Guide. However, It is also aimed at the below (and this is not an inclusive list, just off the top of my head):
-8 player tables
-Playing out of tier and applying a Chronicle incorrectly (i.e. Playing a 6th level PC in a Tier 7-11 game and applying a Chronicle to that 6th level PC)
--Changing the mechanics of a scenario ( a little fluff change for roleplaying purposes is not a problem, adding creatures is)
--Failing to report a game when it is played by PreGens so it can be GMed/Played at a later time with real characters once they are of the correct level.
--Failing to apply a GM Chronicle sheet and saving them up to a later date when multiple Chronicles are all applied at the same time
--Intentionally seeking to obstruct another player from completing a faction mission
Those are just a few. Anything that is in direct opposition as to what is listed in the Organized Play Guide should be avoided. As others have stated above, a mistake is a mistake. Consistently violating the rules and encouraging others to do the same is not welcome.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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--Failing to apply a GM Chronicle sheet and saving them up to a later date when multiple Chronicles are all applied at the same time
If you wouldn't mind, I'd like a clarification on this to make sure I'm not accidentally cheating.
I currently have a character to whom I've applied 5 GM chronicles but have never played. I picked a faction the first time I applied a chronicle to him, and have not (and will not) change it. Is it okay if I don't finalize my decisions on his build (stats, feats, etc) until I'm ready to actually play him? Note that each chronicle has been applied in order acquired, and always in a way that would have been legal had I played the character (i.e., any/all First Steps chronicles are within his first 3, all others were applied at subtier 1-2, etc).
I figure you must be either talking about that, or just meaning not even applying the chronicle until later on.
...Did that all make sense?
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A clarification is someone who GMs 9 different scenarios, saves all 9 scenarios until his character is 4th level, and then applies all 9 so he can immediately advance from 4th to 7th level, 14 months after he GMed the first scenario.
I generally do not take GM credit right away on things. I don't like to apply them to "older" characters as I like to play the higher levels and usually will use lower tier chronicles to create a lvl 3 character to play on the rare chances I do get to play... unfortunately that might be months after I've run the scenario... which side of the line does that fall on?
It's sad that a thread like this is needed.
But it's good to know that when it is needed, it gets posted.
Aside from the passive 'not encouraging cheating,' is there anything useful we, as PFSOP players, can be doing proactively?
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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A clarification is someone who GMs 9 different scenarios, saves all 9 scenarios until his character is 4th level, and then applies all 9 so he can immediately advance from 4th to 7th level, 14 months after he GMed the first scenario.
So far as I understand the rules, Mike, elapsed time isn't an issue at all, only order of events. If I have a 4th level PC and assign appropriately-tiered GM credit to that character for nine scenarios, then that's a 7th-level PC.
Likewise, if I GM "From Shore to Sea"< "Realm of the Fellknight Queen" and "Cult of the Ebon Destroyers" and apply all that GM credit to my currently 4th-level fighter, he'll jump from 4th to 8th level as soon as he earns 12 XP.
Your objection isn't to PCs leaping levels, but rather to GM's who leave their GM credit "unattached" until necessary. It's just as wrong for a fellow to say "I don't have a PC for this Tier 7-11 scenario, but I will, as soon as I take this GM credit and apply it to my 6th-level Ranger." Yes?
To be fair, that was the standard operating procedure for years, though. I would suspect that most GMs don't even know the rules have changed. (Perhaps they don't believe that the rules as they understand them would need to be changed.)
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I'm getting ready to look into allowing boons on Chronicle sheets to be received as part of GM credit. For this to happen, a Chronicle sheet would need to be applied immediately.
So as long as each chronicle is applied to a unique character number immediately, we're set? Even if said character is an amorphous, stat-less blob up until he arrives at a table?
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I'm getting ready to look into allowing boons on Chronicle sheets to be received as part of GM credit. For this to happen, a Chronicle sheet would need to be applied immediately.So as long as each chronicle is applied to a unique character number immediately, we're set? Even if said character is an amorphous, stat-less blob up until he arrives at a table?
Yes
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A clarification is someone who GMs 9 different scenarios, saves all 9 scenarios until his character is 4th level, and then applies all 9 so he can immediately advance from 4th to 7th level, 14 months after he GMed the first scenario.So far as I understand the rules, Mike, elapsed time isn't an issue at all, only order of events. If I have a 4th level PC and assign appropriately-tiered GM credit to that character for nine scenarios, then that's a 7th-level PC.
Likewise, if I GM "From Shore to Sea"< "Realm of the Fellknight Queen" and "Cult of the Ebon Destroyers" and apply all that GM credit to my currently 4th-level fighter, he'll jump from 4th to 8th level as soon as he earns 12 XP.
Your objection isn't to PCs leaping levels, but rather to GM's who leave their GM credit "unattached" until necessary. It's just as wrong for a fellow to say "I don't have a PC for this Tier 7-11 scenario, but I will, as soon as I take this GM credit and apply it to my 6th-level Ranger." Yes?
To be fair, that was the standard operating procedure for years, though. I would suspect that most GMs don't even know the rules have changed. (Perhaps they don't believe that the rules as they understand them would need to be changed.)
That is correct. I am open to listening to arguments why a GM should save 27 GM credits and decide to apply them whenever they deem fit to do so. If the system isn't broken, it doesn't need to be fixed. Let me hear arguments in a new thread please.
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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I'm getting ready to look into allowing boons on Chronicle sheets to be received as part of GM credit. For this to happen, a Chronicle sheet would need to be applied immediately.
So what happens if I GM a scenario, but I don't have a character I can apply the chronicle to? How about if I do have a character, but don't want to apply the chronicle to him because that would make it illegal to play that character in scenarios I've signed up for at a forthcoming convention?
I assume I can choose not to apply the chronicle. Presumably that would still count as "receiving" the GM chronicle, so I would be giving up the option of applying GM credit for that scenario to any character.
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I don't think that it's the case that GM credit must be used the first time one GMs a scenario.
So if you don't want to apply a chronicle for fear of levelling out of some other scenario you want to play, you can just not take GM credit this time.. and apply credit NEXT time you GM it.
Is that not right?
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I'm getting ready to look into allowing boons on Chronicle sheets to be received as part of GM credit. For this to happen, a Chronicle sheet would need to be applied immediately.So what happens if I GM a scenario, but I don't have a character I can apply the chronicle to? How about if I do have a character, but don't want to apply the chronicle to him because that would make it illegal to play that character in scenarios I've signed up for at a forthcoming convention?
I assume I can choose not to apply the chronicle. Presumably that would still count as "receiving" the GM chronicle, so I would be giving up the option of applying GM credit for that scenario to any character.
You do have the option of simply applying it to a new character (just write down the next character number in sequence). If the scenario is of an inappropriate tier for a level 1 character, the Guide (as I understand it) already allows you to let that chronicle "wait" for the character to reach the appropriate level to receive it.
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You do have the option of simply applying it to a new character (just write down the next character number in sequence). If the scenario is of an inappropriate tier for a level 1 character, the Guide (as I understand it) already allows you to let that chronicle "wait" for the character to reach the appropriate level to receive it.I'm getting ready to look into allowing boons on Chronicle sheets to be received as part of GM credit. For this to happen, a Chronicle sheet would need to be applied immediately.So what happens if I GM a scenario, but I don't have a character I can apply the chronicle to? How about if I do have a character, but don't want to apply the chronicle to him because that would make it illegal to play that character in scenarios I've signed up for at a forthcoming convention?
I assume I can choose not to apply the chronicle. Presumably that would still count as "receiving" the GM chronicle, so I would be giving up the option of applying GM credit for that scenario to any character.
This is my understanding also. If you don't have a character to apply it to, write down a new number, name, and faction and you have an instant character. Fill out the details of class/ etc before you need to play.
Edit: Unanswered is what you do if the scenario in question doesn't have a subtier you can apply to a new character, for example a tier 5-9 scenario.
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That is correct. I am open to listening to arguments why a GM should save 27 GM credits and decide to apply them whenever they deem fit to do so. If the system isn't broken, it doesn't need to be fixed. Let me hear arguments in a new thread please.A clarification is someone who GMs 9 different scenarios, saves all 9 scenarios until his character is 4th level, and then applies all 9 so he can immediately advance from 4th to 7th level, 14 months after he GMed the first scenario.So far as I understand the rules, Mike, elapsed time isn't an issue at all, only order of events. If I have a 4th level PC and assign appropriately-tiered GM credit to that character for nine scenarios, then that's a 7th-level PC.
Likewise, if I GM "From Shore to Sea"< "Realm of the Fellknight Queen" and "Cult of the Ebon Destroyers" and apply all that GM credit to my currently 4th-level fighter, he'll jump from 4th to 8th level as soon as he earns 12 XP.
Your objection isn't to PCs leaping levels, but rather to GM's who leave their GM credit "unattached" until necessary. It's just as wrong for a fellow to say "I don't have a PC for this Tier 7-11 scenario, but I will, as soon as I take this GM credit and apply it to my 6th-level Ranger." Yes?
To be fair, that was the standard operating procedure for years, though. I would suspect that most GMs don't even know the rules have changed. (Perhaps they don't believe that the rules as they understand them would need to be changed.)
Mike,
It's wrong and he shouldnt. But sometimes a GM cant apply stuff to his characters right away because he's busy getting ready to GM the next slot.
I would suggest a time limit of sorts maybe the GM has a day or two to update or by the end of the convention. some ideas.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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Unanswered is what you do if the scenario in question doesn't have a subtier you can apply to a new character, for example a tier 5-9 scenario.
Actually, almost that exact situation is spelled out in the Guide.
For example, if a GM with a 1st-level rogue runs a Tier 5–9 scenario, she would take a Subtier 5–6 Chronicle sheet (the lowest subtier for that tier) for running the scenario and set it aside. Once her rogue reaches 5th level, she can immediately apply the Chronicle sheet to her character.
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I don't think that it's the case that GM credit must be used the first time one GMs a scenario.
I think this should be clarified. We know that a player must accept a chronicle the first time they play a scenario and are not eligible to replay it for credit at a future time. Does that apply to the GM's as well? If I fail to report my GM credit the first time, is it cheating to report it when I run that scenario again in the future?
It would make the GM system consistent with the player credits. The first time you play a scenario, you must accept the chronicle and declare where it will be applied. If the character is not of appropriate level, you "bank" and apply it/them, in date order, as soon as the character reaches the legal level.
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Unanswered is what you do if the scenario in question doesn't have a subtier you can apply to a new character, for example a tier 5-9 scenario.Actually, almost that exact situation is spelled out in the Guide.
For example, if a GM with a 1st-level rogue runs a Tier 5–9 scenario, she would take a Subtier 5–6 Chronicle sheet (the lowest subtier for that tier) for running the scenario and set it aside. Once her rogue reaches 5th level, she can immediately apply the Chronicle sheet to her character.
Do'h!
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I don't think that it's the case that GM credit must be used the first time one GMs a scenario.I think this should be clarified. We know that a player must accept a chronicle the first time they play a scenario and are not eligible to replay it for credit at a future time. Does that apply to the GM's as well? If I fail to report my GM credit the first time, is it cheating to report it when I run that scenario again in the future?
It would make the GM system consistent with the player credits. The first time you play a scenario, you must accept the chronicle and declare where it will be applied. If the character is not of appropriate level, you "bank" and apply it/them, in date order, as soon as the character reaches the legal level.
I don't understand what this would fix. What exactly would be wrong with a GM running a scenario once and forgoing a chronicle then later GMing it again and receiving one?
It should be considered a perk GMs can opt to take or not any time they run a scenario so long as it's only once per scenario. The idea is for this to be a GM reward. If you give someone a perk which they can't use, then it's not really a perk.
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I don't understand what this would fix. What exactly would be wrong with a GM running a scenario once and forgoing a chronicle then later GMing it again and receiving one?It should be considered a perk GMs can opt to take or not any time they run a scenario so long as it's only once per scenario. The idea is for this to be a GM reward. If you give someone a perk which they can't use, then it's not really a perk.
Agreed. If the chronicle must be applied immediately following the game, or be lost forever, should I then decline to run at the spur of the moment, since I don't know where I want to assign it?
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My post was mostly a request for clarification.
IMO, if you intend to take GM credit for running a scenario, it must be applied at that time. Otherwise, you can choose not to, and take the credit when you run it at some future date. You just would not be able to claim the chronicle and "float" the credit until you decide to apply it to a specific character.
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I have a quick question related to the original post, how would I get my characters chronicle list on the website fixed as at this time its inaccurate (I think 2-3 sessions arent reported for some reason) and I cant contact the coordinators for it.
Honestly it doesnt bother me, although when my PC hits 7 the website will say he is still level 6 so it would seem like im playing out of tier as ill probably be playing only 7- 11 games (as I only play 5-9 with level 5-6 chars, I need those scenarios to level more characters to 11)
Email me the details and I will get them corrected for you.
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I hate to see that this had to be stated, but the rules are the rules. Whether you agree with them or not. They should not be broken just because someone disagrees with them.
Paizo has a great system here where you can discuss, agree, or disagree with the rules as they are with timely responses from the Paizo staff, and I would fully encourage anyone to take that avenue. Rules have been changed because of discussions on this forum.
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Since we've already got at least one other thread about GM credits, I'll throw something else entirely into the discussion.
I'm going to go outside my normal position of letting the player base police itself and say this. This post is directed at any person who wants to encourage cheating and breaking the rules...
What about discussing grey areas where there is no clear 'allowed' and 'not allowed' (beyond what is in the imaginations of opinionated posters, of course)
Example: Let's say someone laments their new PFS character, a Sword Saint, has reached level 3. Only he can't TAKE level 3, since it requires modification to Mounted Charge, a class ability neither Cavaliers nor Samurai possess. Some may advise just levelling to 3 anyway, citing that 'clearly it'll be FAQ'd and no reason you can't play till then'.
Those people advocating 'cheating' aren't guilty what you're talking about, or are they?
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Thank you for posting this. Our gaming group has players that fall on both sides, including my wife and I (We are a house divided). From my conversations with people, I get the feeling that players fall into two categories.
1) Pathfinder Society for convention play - These players tend to be the players that travel to different events (regional or national) to play Pathfinder Society. They tend to be the players that follow the rules as written in the guide because they are playing with people they don't know and want everyone to be on the same page and "power level."
2) Pathfinder Society as an extension of home gaming - These players tend to be the players that play at only local events. As such they play with the same players in and out. As such, they equate the gaming with home gaming because they will probably never play outside of this area. Thus they feel that the rules are just "guidelines" and that the rules can be ignored as they see fit. They see no problem with 8 player tables, out of tier play, etc. Since there is no enforcement of the rules, they can get away with this.
Hope this helps.
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2) Pathfinder Society as an extension of home gaming - These players tend to be the players that play at only local events. As such they play with the same players in and out. As such, they equate the gaming with home gaming because they will probably never play outside of this area. Thus they feel that the rules are just "guidelines" and that the rules can be ignored as they see fit. They see no problem with 8 player tables, out of tier play, etc. Since there is no enforcement of the rules, they can get away with this.Hope this helps.
Here's the thing: as long as those players (and GMs) aren't interacting with others, and aren't reporting sessions, it IS a home game. There's nothing wrong with using PFS scenarios as a jumping off point for your own game. If I want to GM "Murder on the Throaty Mermaid" with a Druid player whose animal companion is a shark with a frickin' laser beam on it's head, that's fine, as long as I'm not taking part in PFS organized play!
If you go out on the local golf course with your buddies you can have two mulligans on every hole and "gimmies" from 10 meters away. If you all want to play that way you'll have a great time. But if you play in a tournament on that same course, you have to abide by the rules of the game. It doesn't matter that for the most part you're enforcing the rules on yourself, you agree to abide by the rules by entering play.
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I agree with you on that point but that is not what is happening. These are players that go to their local gaming store and play an organized event that is reported by the organizer. Since they only play at that location with the same people over and over again, they are more inclined to believe that the rules don't matter because they only play at this one repeating event. I am talking about the home game mentality of "GM is in charge and the rules are only really guidelines" creeping into organized play events.
This usually does not creep into the actual game unless the organizer or GM holds the same mentality (I have seen organizers that act this way and bend the rules because most of their players only play at that event).
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I agree with you on that point but that is not what is happening. These are players that go to their local gaming store and play an organized event that is reported by the organizer. Since they only play at that location with the same people over and over again, they are more inclined to believe that the rules don't matter because they only play at this one repeating event. I am talking about the home game mentality of "GM is in charge and the rules are only really guidelines" creeping into organized play events.
This usually does not creep into the actual game unless the organizer or GM holds the same mentality (I have seen organizers that act this way and bend the rules because most of their players only play at that event).
I can see why some might hold this attitude.
I can also see why this could happen.
However, If they will never, ever play outside that group, then why call it Pathfinder Society? Just buy the PFS scenarios and play a home game.
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I think it would suck if I GMed a game and then wasn't allowed to apply the chronicle sheet if I didn't have a character at the appropriate level right there and then to immediately claim it.
In my humble opinion, anything that rewards GMs for the work they do is a good thing. I couldn't care less if a dedicated GM had their new PFS character level from 1 all the way to 7 if they've put in all that effort GMing for me and my group. 'Good for them!' I'd say.
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I think it would suck if I GMed a game and then wasn't allowed to apply the chronicle sheet if I didn't have a character at the appropriate level right there and then to immediately claim it.
Not to call you out KestlerGunner, but this can never happen. Even if you must apply it immediately.
Do you have no characters of appropriate tier because they're all too low? Pick one to give it to, and when that character levels up high enough, bam instant 'bonus' chronicle.
Do you have no characters of appropriate tier because they're all too high? Assign it to your next sequential number. You don't even need a name for your new classless, raceless blob. But he's already got his first chronicle for when you DO stat it up/play it!
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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A clarification is someone who GMs 9 different scenarios, saves all 9 scenarios until his character is 4th level, and then applies all 9 so he can immediately advance from 4th to 7th level, 14 months after he GMed the first scenario.
Just to play devil's advocate here: how is the above any different than a GM who applies all of these chronicles and levels his character as he goes? If he has never played that character at a game between then and now, it doesn't make one whit of difference to the people at the table when those levels were added. In fact, it might be better if the GM leveled up right before that 7th-level session, since then he would have the character fresh in his mind, rather than dusting it off after having applied the previous credit two months ago. . . .
I guess what I'm saying is, as long as the chronicles are applied in the proper order and for the appropriate tier, why does it matter *when* they are applied?
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I'm with Tamago. I'm wondering why this argument is taking place. Why are we creating a new rule to remove GM flexibility about how or when their characters progress to a higher tier? Is it a 'reporting system' issue?
It is not a New rule, It is the Actual Rule that people where not clear on so they just did it anyway they wanted.
In another thread Mike is asking what should be done with the rule so then he will make it more clear.
You can bring up your concerns there.