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For example: I memorize Acid Splash in my 1st-level spell slot while already having four 0th-level spells memorized.
I would rule that you only have unlimited casting for your 0-level spells used in 0-level spell slots. I don't think it would be unbalancing to allow unlimited casting of a 0-level spell in a 1st-level slot. I just don't like having to remember every iteration of a ruling that I make so I keep things as simply as I can. I can also see someone coming up with some weird combination that I would never have thought of.
if you memorize it in your first level spell slot then its your first level spell... at least thats how i would see it.
Yes. You can cast it as often as you like. It is still a 0-level cantrip even though it is in a 1st-level slot.
The only exception (as passed down by the game developers) is if you apply metamagic to it. Applying metamagic (and having it take up a higher level slot as a result) will cause it to empty the slot upon being cast.
The only exception is if yo apply metamagic to it. Applying metamagic (and having it take up a higher level slot as a result) will cause it to empty the slot upon being cast.
I highly respect your opinion as most post I've read of yours I completely agree with, but could you tell me why?
As far as I can tell metamagic doesn't alter spell level and thus it would still be a level-0 spell and qualify for not expending a spell slot as a level-0 spell. Have I missed something?
if you memorize it in your first level spell slot then its your first level spell... at least thats how i would see it.
I'm pretty sure the way you would see it is different than how the rules of the game work:
The various character class tables show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day. These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower levels.
Wizards can prepare a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells, each day, as noted on Table: Wizard under “Spells per Day.” These spells are cast like any other spell, but they are not expended when cast and may be used again. A wizard can prepare a cantrip from an opposition school, but it uses up two of his available slots
Spell slots give the maximum spell level that can be prepared in the slot and you can always prepare lower level spell in a higher level spell slot. Cantrips or 0-level spells are not expended because they're prepared in the 0-level spell slot. They're not expended on the condition of simply being 0-level spells.
RD, why would a metamagiced cantrip in a first level slot be used up?
I mean I understand why the immediate thought would be that way, after all it's a first level slot and all, but from RAW, it seems it would not be used up since it's a cantrip.
This is an odd thing, and probably not RAI, but I don't know if it would qualify as an "exploit". Interesting thought. Extend a cantrip in a first level spell slot and cast it over and over.....
Why not?
Waltz: It's not really an opinion. Putting a 0-level spell in a higher level slot does not change its status as a cantrip.
AD: I don't know why. I'm merely repeating what the game developers have said in the past.
Simple.
When you metamagic it, it requires a spell slot higher than 0. Therefore, it's no longer strictly speaking requires a 0-level slot. If you just put it in a 1st level slot, it's still a spell requiring a 0-level slot, it's just not in one.
So, in the first instance, the metamagic'd spell, since it requires a higher than 0 level slot, is no longer at-will. In the second instance, where it requires a 0 level, but is put in a 1st level, it's still a spell that requires a 0 level slot, so it's at-will.
Now, that begs the question of metamagic abilities that don't raise the level of the spell. I'd personally say those should stay at-will, following that logic.
Waltz: It's not really an opinion. Putting a 0-level spell in a higher level slot does not change its status as a cantrip.
AD: I don't know why. I'm merely repeating what the game developers have said in the past.
Citation possible?
I mean to me the RAW is pretty clear here, so for it to not work that way I think would require errata or a FAQ answer at least. Spells clearly don't change level when you metamagic them, or else the "heighten spell" feat wouldn't exist or be called out as an exception.
I can see the logic behind ruling differently, but frankly I would have to give some serious thought to how this could break the game, but off the top of my head I only see it as allowing a wizard to cast an improved "acid splash" or "ray of frost" an unlimited number of times if he wants to devote a higher level spell slot.
I'll have to peruse the cantrip list to see how this could be broken...
But if you have a citation, then fine. It's not a big deal. Just intrigues me is all.
Simple.
When you metamagic it, it requires a spell slot higher than 0. Therefore, it's no longer strictly speaking requires a 0-level slot. If you just put it in a 1st level slot, it's still a spell requiring a 0-level slot, it's just not in one.
So, in the first instance, the metamagic'd spell, since it requires a higher than 0 level slot, is no longer at-will. In the second instance, where it requires a 0 level, but is put in a 1st level, it's still a spell that requires a 0 level slot, so it's at-will.
Now, that begs the question of metamagic abilities that don't raise the level of the spell. I'd personally say those should stay at-will, following that logic.
mdt, Can you show me in the RAW where it refers to being able to cast unlimited spells is based on the SLOT? I only see references to being based on the LEVEL. Evan a quickened ray of frost is still a zero level spell, still a cantrip, and therefore, still suitable for unlimited casting.
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But if you have a citation, then fine. It's not a big deal. Just intrigues me is all.
I'll echo this sentiment exactly.
@RD: Eh, just paying you a compliment. Whenever I see a post by you on rules clarifications or in a looser discussion I generally find you either correct or things or your opinion on matters that call for it to be agreeable. So when something catches me off guard I assume you know something I simply don't.
Found it. Seems I was mistaken.
The rules as intended and as they should be interpreted are that you only get to cast 0 level spells at will. Once they're prepared with higher level spell slots, they follow all the rules for how higher level spell slots work.
Allowing all cantrips to be cast at will despite that spell slot you used to prepare the spell is an interesting house rule, though.
Seems you spoke too soon, Waltz, but I appreciate the sentiment.
RD, maybe this is what you remember:
Jason Bulmahn (Lead Designer) Sep 10, 2009
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Folks, James is right on here.If you use a higher level slot, for any reason, be it because it is modified with metamagic, or you just prepared it in a higher slot, it is consumed when cast, just like any other spell. Only when it uses a 0-level slot, it is not consumed.
There is some poor wording there that I am going to correct the next time I am able.
And please folks.. play nice.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
So, that settles it I suppose. I think they were too quick to squash this though, and I wish a new errata would fix this for future reference.
Seems you spoke too soon, Waltz, but I appreciate the sentiment.
Well as long as it's not in the official FAQ or errata'd I suppose you're still technically correct, which is the best kind of correct. ;)
I guess that settles it then.
RAI is yes higher level cantrips consume spell slots. RAW is possibly a different matter, but you'd have to be a bold weirdo to ignore the word of the devs.
The answer is no.
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I agree that the devs made a bad call in this case. I can see some potentially useful metamagiced cantrips (extended daze, widened detect magic) but they're still more groovy than good. In nu games, cantrips are always at will.
the number of spell slots is an important tool used by the Developers for balance. A wizard only gets to choose 4 cantrips each day. If I allow a 1st level player to prepare acid splash or ray of frost in a first level spell slot that allows the player to cast 1d3 unlimited times per day instead of 1d4+1/1d6 once per day AND still have 3 other cantrips per day. Needing to select your spells at the beginning of the day is another way to balance the Wizard class. I know that this is really only an issue at level 1 and maybe 2, but it is still much more powerful than on casting of Magic Missile or Burning Hand.
So we are to bellieve that a wizard casting an unlimited number of d3 acid splashes per day is unbalanced, but that same wizard can shoot an unlimited number of d6 crossbow bolts with the same attack bonus? Not to mention the ranger blasting 2-3 d8+4 arrows per round with no limit at a much higher attack bonus.
I don't buy that argument at all.
I haven't done an exhaustive analysis of this yet, but a quick look has not shown me any way of exploiting this in a game-breaking manner. Not with core anyway.
To me this just gives wizards an option to provide arcane attacks with a bit of punch all day long at the expense of a metamagic feat and sacrificing a higher level spell. That hardly sounds broken to me. So far.
About the most "broken" thing from a combat perspective I've come up with is a quickened ray of frost which would allow an unlimited number of swift action frost rays to be cast out of a level 4 slot. But that wouldn't be possible before level 7 and a possible addition of 1d3 per round in ddamage hardly seems broken.
A quickened daze would allow a shot at dazing 4HD or less monsters every round, that might be a bit much, but it would be an easy DC to hit. But by level seven you aren't going to be fighting a lot of 4hd critters, except mooks or minions.
Still not seeing this as a huge game impact, and frankly I like some of the flavor it allows. I might just house rule this to see how it works in my own campaigns.
RD, why would a metamagiced cantrip in a first level slot be used up?
Because the intent of 0 level spells in 0 level slots is that they are such a small, negligable expenditure of magic that even the most basic of casters can use them over and over.
Where as anything that is metamagic adjusted is now using a more appreciable and limited amount of magic resource (higher level spell slots) and as such are used once cast like any other spell cast from those slots.
Ideally, Pathfinder should have stated that 0 level spells (being cantrips and orisons specifically) are not expended when cast from 0 level slots, which would avoid these kind of issues and which I beilive is the intent of the rule.
About the most "broken" thing from a combat perspective I've come up with is a quickened ray of frost which would allow an unlimited number of swift action frost rays to be cast out of a level 4 slot. But that wouldn't be possible before level 7 and a possible addition of 1d3 per round in ddamage hardly seems broken.The Evocation Wizard will add 1/2 Wizard level to those damage rolls. Also add in Disruptive Spell metamagic and every swift action turns into a bit of damage and forcing spellcasting concentration checks for the next round.
1/2 wizard level damage bonus is still negligable with a d3 damage base. The forcing of a concentration check could be done even from a zero level slot though, correct, but then it would be a standard action, not a swift action.... hmmmm give up a 4th level spell slot to force one opposing caster to make a concentration check each round.... that's not shabby, but its a 4th level spell slot...
That's the best counterargument yet, but still doesn't convince me its overpowered.
How about a heightened, dazing, ray of frost?
Fine, threatening ghost sound?
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Fine, threatening ghost sound?Not familiar with the Threatening Metamagic Feat and cant seem to find it in the SRD. What book is it from?
Here is the threatening metamagic link for you.
It does raise the spell slot need by one level.
So a threatening ghost sound takes a level 1 slot
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Freelance, it's not clear to me that the RAW dictate that a 0 level spell impacted by a MMF that requires a higher-level SLOT means that the cantrip is now a higher-level SPELL.
I'm not sure exactly how to follow your reasoning on this. You argue that a 1st level spell in a zero-level slot (hypothetically) would not be repeatable, and I agree.
That seems to be to be an argument that slot is irrelevant. Ergo, a cantrip in any slot is still a cantrip and thus repeatable. Why does this not carry over if the cantrip is in a higher slot b/c it has been metaed?
from what you quoted :
"Effects of Metamagic Feats on a Spell: In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast using a higher-level spell slot. "Ergo, the heightened cantrip operates at its original spell level in all ways, including repeatability.
The only metamagic that actually raises the spells effective level (rather then just the slot requirement) is heighten.
a threatening ghost sound, for example, would be a level 0 spell (for saves etc) that would require a level 1 slot to cast.
Fine, threatening ghost sound?
Allow a wizard to devote a standard action an unlimited number of times to provide a single flanking square using ghost sound or dancing lights? Heck maybe more people would play rogues. I see this as OK.
At level nine a wizard could quicken this for a quickened, threatening ghost sound... by sacrificing a fifth level spell slot...
Still OK with it. In fact I like it.
The rules as intended and as they should be interpreted are that you only get to cast 0 level spells at will. Once they're prepared with higher level spell slots, they follow all the rules for how higher level spell slots work.
Allowing all cantrips to be cast at will despite that spell slot you used to prepare the spell is an interesting house rule, though.
Interesting topic, I can see merit in the discussion, but James echoes my sentiments and my understanding of the rules. No, that is not possible.
And a sorcerer? It would be a slot used but rather a slot in reserve.. while he has one left he can do this.. and then cast a 'real' spell using that slot.
That doesn't seem to sit right with me
Well, this idea of (cantrip + metamagic) would allow the sorcerer and other spontaneous casters a certain boon that prepared casters do not benefit from.
From my understanding of the rules this isn't possible, but I could see it being up for debate as a possible rules change if it proved to be harmless enough.
For example: I memorize Acid Splash in my 1st-level spell slot while already having four 0th-level spells memorized.
RAW, yes.