A grappling sap master

[Fastmover]

Do the feats "Sap Master" and "Pinning Knock Out" stack?

[MacGurcules]

Fastmover wrote:

Do the feats "Sap Master" and "Pinning Knock Out" stack?

Not easily, it seems. Sap Master specifically calls out the requirement for the target to be flat-footed. Being pinned denies the target its dexterity bonus, but it doesn't automatically make them flat-footed. So you couldn't do it to just any schmuck you get ahold of.

I suppose if you had good initiative and Rapid Grappler you could use your surprise round to close in on a guy, and the next round to do three maneuver checks to make the grapple, pin, and then deal the sneak attack damage while they're still flat-footed.

You could maybe work something out with feints, but it's not really guaranteed.
EDIT: Now that I look at it, feinting doesn't cause flat-footedness. It just denies dex, so that's no good. Seems like it's probably just good for opening rounds unless you've got some other trick.

[Fastmover]

1. Human Bonus Feat - Sap Adept, Feat - Two - Weapon Fighting

2. Ninja Trick - Unarmed Combat Training

3. Feat - Knockout Artist

4. Ninja Trick - Rogue Talent - Offensive Defense

5. Feat - Sap Mastery

6. Ninja Trick - Combat Feat - Improved Grapple

7. Feat - Strangler

8. Ninja Trick - Vanish

9. Feat - Greater Grapple

10. Advanced Ninja Trick - Invisible Blade

11. Feat - Combat Reflexes

12. Ninja Trick - Unarmed Combat Mastery

13. Feat - Pinning Knock Out

14. Ninja Trick -

15. Feat - Rapid Grappler

Strangler allows me to deal sneak attack damage to grappled opponents as swift actions.

[Hayato Ken]

Yes they stack if you can do sneak attack while grappling. You need the feat strangler to do it.

Very feat intensive build, but cool. Actually quadrupples your sneak attack dice and gives you four times the number of sneak attack dice as bonus damage.
Comes only into play late game though.
Devastating with a whip and greater whip mastery or/and equipment trick rope.

[MacGurcules]

It's not just about dealing sneak attack damage, though. Sap Master specifically requires that your target is flat-footed as well. And pinned opponents aren't necessarily flat-footed. So by RAW, unless you can make that happen, it doesn't look like it's all that practical.

EDIT: Wait a sec. If you can't do sneak attack damage from a grapple check using anything but Strangler, it looks like it's a no-go. You need your standard to establish the grapple, your move to pin, and your swift to deal damage. If you need a swift to add in your sneak attack damage, then you're going to be out of actions once you get that far.

[Fastmover]

True that is the case. But that is when the grapple is initiated and maintained. After the grapple is maintained the pinned target is denied its Dex and can be attacked as a standard action allowing for your sneak attack damage.

[Fastmover]

Also what your saying is that Sap Master doesn't work on all SA, only during the surprise round?

[Fake Healer]

the point of sap master is that you catch someone flat-footed and knock them out, not that you can use a sap while flanking to do extra damage. It's kinda a special ops training thingy....sneak up, whack the stars outta someone so they don't raise the alarm, steal his stuff/slit his throat/paint his nails/whatever and move on.

[MacGurcules]

Yeah, flat-footed is different from denied dex. Flat-footedness pretty much only happens in the opening rounds of combat. Until someone takes an action in combat, they're flat-footed. So if you can get them unawares, that gives you the surprise round and, as long as you have a better initiative, the first whole round of combat to get things done.

There are a few things that can cause flat-footedness outside of the first round of combat. The Gunslinger's Startling Shot causes it, for instance. But they're not common effects.

So that means your only semi-reliable method leveraging Sap Master is during the first rounds of combat. If you can sneak up on them them out of combat with stealth or invisibility you may be able to use your standard action in the surprise round to make the first grapple check to establish the grapple. Then, if you go before your target in the second round, you can use your standard action to make a grapple check to pin the opponent, your move action with Greater Grapple make a grapple check to deal damage, and your swift action to add in your sneak attack damage.

That's the only way I can figure to work it out. Rapid Grappler isn't actually necessary, though it's nice if you want to quickly tie up your grappling opponents in situations where you can't get your sneak attack damage working.

[Fastmover]

Well dang.

[Hayato Ken]

Enforcer, dazzöing display and shatter defences.
Hit them once, make a free intimidate and then hit them once every round again to make then flatfooted against all other attacks, then take the swift action to deal quadruple SA damage.

Meh more feats to pull off, but still a strong build.

[Fastmover]

Yeah. I'll have to go that route.