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Female gamer.
I second the call for variety in depictions of men and women. I like drawing my character. But I am no artist. So I like using the artwork in books as a model to copy or adapt slightly to depict my own character. The more variety, the better chance I can find a picture I can use. For me then, more realistic and less fanservice-y is better.
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The cover for Cosmo is a con.
The message is this:
"see her? She kicks your ass. But buy this magazine and you can learn gobs of her kung fu."
The real kung fu involved, of course, is Photoshop, and the magazine is borked full up with advertisements, vapid advice, cheesy personality quizzes, and general crap designed to attempt to subtly whittle down your self confidence enough to make you buy more Cosmo.
Kinda along the lines of the statememt "women do not dress up for men. Women dress up for other women."
So the woman on the cover of Cosmo isn't there because women want to look at her.
She's a threat.
Chris, I hope you've perused the kotaku-male-entitlement thread!
I have, yes. I'm a software developer by trade, and the same sort of thing is extremely prevalent in the tech industry as well. It's something I'm familiar with from several aspects of my life.
If we are to use Star, Cosmo, or Women's Health as models for what women want to look at, it is pictures of attractive women. Who could blame them.
I just... wow. Seriously? There are so. many. things wrong with the media regarding how women should see themselves / behave that are utterly in contrast to reality. One Google search for something like 'magazines women photoshop' will show you just how insane it is to use the media as a guide here. Please talk to any female you know about how utterly and totally f@#$ed the media is in its depiction of women.
Three things I've noticed in my travels through life.
1) I've known quite a few women who don't have anything to do whatsoever with rpg's who have read and seen all the Harry Potter stuff,
2) I went to Wal Mart at 11 pm one night and there was a line of a couple hundred adolescent girls peppered with a mother here and there, waiting for the midnight release of whatever Twilight dvd was releasing,
3) I played Vampire Wars (essentially Mafia Wars with vampires) on facebook a while, and the game is chock full of women playing it.
Between Harry Potter, Twilight, and Vampire Wars.....whatever they're doing that rpg's aren't doing in general,.....is the answer to "why ain't there more female gamers?" I know there are some, but I kinda doubt it's a 50/50 split necessarily.
Three things I've noticed in my travels through life.
1) I've known quite a few women who don't have anything to do whatsoever with rpg's who have read and seen all the Harry Potter stuff,
2) I went to Wal Mart at 11 pm one night and there was a line of a couple hundred adolescent girls peppered with a mother here and there, waiting for the midnight release of whatever Twilight dvd was releasing,
3) I played Vampire Wars (essentially Mafia Wars with vampires) on facebook a while, and the game is chock full of women playing it.
Between Harry Potter, Twilight, and Vampire Wars.....whatever they're doing that rpg's aren't doing in general,.....is the answer to "why ain't there more female gamers?" I know there are some, but I kinda doubt it's a 50/50 split necessarily.
I think you might be looking for this thread. I think the point of this thread is to discuss the kind of artwork female and gay gamers would like to see, not about what proportion of men verses women gamers there are. The latter discussion is good one to have, but in a different thread.
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Lose the boobplate, or whatever it is she's wearing. She suffers from the same problem you see in so many comics, where the outfit must have been painted on, 'cause that's the only way you're gonna boobs that look like that under clothing.
In the second image, she's also got a slight spine-twisty problem, too. You can see that her lower body is directly facing the dragon. Her torso, however, is twisted to face the audience, so we've got a clear view of those boobs. Her face is almost completely in profile, however; that's not always easy on the neck, nor does it look like a natural pose. I do love the fierce expression on her face, though.
Noted for future projects. Nothing I can do about it for these images, but future projects, I will tell artists to make these alterations.
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I think you might be looking for this thread. I think the point of this thread is to discuss the kind of artwork female and gay gamers would like to see, not about what proportion of men verses women gamers there are. The latter discussion is good one to have, but in a different thread.Three things I've noticed in my travels through life.
1) I've known quite a few women who don't have anything to do whatsoever with rpg's who have read and seen all the Harry Potter stuff,
2) I went to Wal Mart at 11 pm one night and there was a line of a couple hundred adolescent girls peppered with a mother here and there, waiting for the midnight release of whatever Twilight dvd was releasing,
3) I played Vampire Wars (essentially Mafia Wars with vampires) on facebook a while, and the game is chock full of women playing it.
Between Harry Potter, Twilight, and Vampire Wars.....whatever they're doing that rpg's aren't doing in general,.....is the answer to "why ain't there more female gamers?" I know there are some, but I kinda doubt it's a 50/50 split necessarily.
I guess my point is that I don't think it's a "fanservice" issue necessarily. Women aren't men, and I don't believe there is a "fanservice" that will "appeal" to them.
There's something else going on there entirely. Whatever that is is the key towards more inclusion. Whatever that is, it's going on in Twilight, in Harry Potter, and in Vampire Wars. It is NOT making a buff dude for women to drool over, so they have their own Seoni.I think the whole structure of the game is geared towards dudes, and I think that whatever intersocial/emotional payoff there is in what I'm talking about its probably severely lacking in rpg's, and I at least have the guts to say I don't know what exactly it is, but I'm pretty confident that it's not fanservice.
I do, however, remember a time where a friend's girlfriend was playing; we were all rolling up characters, and like she spent hours. Buying. Equipment.
Hours.
I'm thinking, seriously, a Player's Handbook equipment page, with like 50 choices of kinds of clothing,......different accessories,....gloves, boots, all kindsa stuff. All illustrated, the same way we have all the armors and weapons and stuff illustrated out for us.
But, nothing about different clothes or anything.
A page of shoes.
You know how many damn pairs of shoes your wife has? That many shoes on that page.
I think she woulda liked that.
I Wished I woulda asked her, but at the time, I was young and like wished that she was done or something. So we could get on with the adventuring.
There is, actually: Invulnerable Rager
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Personally, empowerment, variety and a practical outfit come a long way ahead of images trying to be sexy.
IMHO since there are generally as many tastes as there are readers, then the more variety you have (male, female and androgynous) the more likely everyone is to find something they like.
I've always been a big fan of Brom's Elric artwork but that poster from Last of the Mohicans was always an eye-catcher too. Variety is always welcome and wonderful though.
Elric
Hawkeye
His name's not Hawkeye; it's not even Nathaniel. It's Natty Bumpo, okay?
As for women responding to "fanservice" (is that what we're calling beef/cheesecake now?) I remember a interview where Wendy and Richard Pini described going to a comic convention. Richard was dressed as Elric and Wendy had to fight the girls off with a whip and a chair.
Does everything have to be about beefcake or eye candy? Can someone be curvy or heavyset and still be attractive? Is everyone in our settings an Adonis or an Aphrodite?
Not to threadjack, but Disney's been complaining that women aren't interested in seeing John Carter (of Mars!). Clearly they need to take a page out of both new Conan & Game of Thrones' playbooks, and redo the trailers to accentuate the main character's "assets". Since they don't want to talk about theToss in some half naked men in loincloths and you'll make the gay gamers happy. Probably female gamers too, but I'm just guessing on that part.Yes, please! Is there an archetype for this? Naked barbarian?
This may well belong in the chainmail bikini thread, but I for one was very sad to see all the gratuitous clothing added to Barsoom. I mean, it's a disney movie, so I knew it was going to happen from the time I first heard they producing the movie, but what's good enough for Dr. Manhattan is good enough for John Carter, Dejah Thoris, Tars Tarkas et al.
@Chubbs: I'm not unsympathetic, but I think our grass roots protest will be useless until the entrenched biological power base (pulsists) running Paizo convert such figures of your movement as the Carrionette.
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Blah blah blah.
I've said it before and I'll say it again:
Until Paizo starts offering positive portrayals of goblins as warm, sensitive, well-endowed lovers, all your blather is nothing more than well-meaning liberal claptrap.
This may well belong in the chainmail bikini thread, but I for one was very sad to see all the gratuitous clothing added to Barsoom. I mean, it's a disney movie, so I knew it was going to happen from the time I first heard they producing the movie, but what's good enough for Dr. Manhattan is good enough for John Carter, Dejah Thoris, Tars Tarkas et al.
Yup. As a 100% straight man, let me say that I for one will not go see a John Carter movie unless it has a buck naked Tars Tarkis with a 6-inch schlong featured prominently in the trailer. ;)
Honestly, I don't want representation, I want well-designed characters that seem at least somewhat feasable in a fantasy campaign setting. While half-naked men in these settings are often attractive, I've got, ah, other sources when I want to see attractive men, not in my role playing books.
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I don't have anything personal against goblin lovers, but its those sharp, jagged teeth and red beady eyes that make loving them so difficult.
Well it all looks the same in the dark. Well that is if you don't have darkvision of course.
And Watchmen=Warner Bros.=grownups, John Carter=Disney=Happy meals. So no gratuitous blue (or green) wang on big plastic tumbler glasses.
It's true. The pervasive anti-goblin bias of Paizo is shared by the corporate media of this capitalist patriarchy.
Vive le Galt!
I think there should be a goblic Iconic.
+1
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I think there should be a goblic Iconic.+1
Goblin tangent for both of ya:
They won't be much like Golarion goblins though. Using the goblins from my homebrew: short, green-skinned, completely hairless(not even eyebrows), more human-like in facial structure and body proportions, frequently oppressed/enslaved, almost always second-class-and-below citizens, real underdog race that mostly has to attach themelves to civilizations of larger folk to survive. They're a bit like the reenvisioned halflings in Golarion, except they get less respect.
Those goblins will be present in the aforementioned project, mostly as a slave population, but they'll also be presented as a "standard expectations" player race option.
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This is nowhere near as complete or wide-ranging as I'd hoped, but it'll have to do for a start. (sorry, work has been insane)
Not all of these are examples of what I'm shooting for, some push beyond what I have in mind at the moment actually. But this is to see what clicks and what definitely doesn't with folks.
Basically posting whatever names were tagged onto each piece of art in their galleries. Accuracy not guaranteed.
Gerald Brom - Grave Expectations - Male
Gerald Brom - Shade of Blue - Female
Gerald Brom - Shade of Red - Male
Gerald Brom - Jungle Queen - Female
Gerald Brom - Crossed Swords - Male
(three variants of the same basic design for a female barbarian-type at the far end of the scantily-clad/practical scale)
Tony DiTerlizzi - Factol Pentar - Female
No direct linking - http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/4255435/images/1239515370591. jpg
Tony DiTerlizzi - Cipher - Female
Tony DiTerlizzi - Tiefling - Female
Merfolk of the Pearl Trident - Male
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"Those goblins will be present in the aforementioned project, mostly as a slave population..."
[Adds Mikaze's name to the list, alongside Disney and Paizo, of anti-goblin bigots]
Good point.
[Crosses Mikaze off the list]
Goblin heroes? You mean like the ones that keep their kennels tidy without being flogged?
I wish there was an anti-favorite button.
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Though not the target demographic there is one that always bugs the crap out of me. I always hate that the iconic s for spell casters are either old guys or young girls, as a twenty something male I never really identify with either and always wish there was something more aimed at me as I feel like my options are to be either gandalf or sailor moon. Hell I would even like to see an iconic old female wizard now that I think about it just something to break up the trend. Also as someone mentioned before glasses, male, female, either would be awesome on characters and are badly under represented. Also also (such bad grammar) Goblin, top hat, monocle, sword cane, nuff said.