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Our group has always played that "anything an earth elemental is carrying earthglides with him", is that not the case? Earthglide itself doesn't specify anything about things you carry, just that "you burrow, swimming through the earth as if it was water."
I thought you were assuming the creatures were digging a hole under the floor, that caved in.
It's debatable that they can drag a resisting creature back into the earth with them; I know as GM, I suggested it to the players once, to help them out of a jam, and they pointed out it wasn't feasible.
I think it works like THIS (0:35 onwards).
Back to the OP...
Mr. Boggard, I do strongly suggest the team invest in a few crossbows to add ranged attacks for dungeon delving.
Now I know everybody's going to balk at this, because it's such a melee party, but you bear with me (and try to get them to bear with you)....
The reason you're using crossbows is to give your melee party easily droppable ranged attacks. The crossbows are not for use during fights, necessarily. They are for finding fights in a manner that produces better results for the party.
Nobody has to be very good with them. Nobody should ever waste a feat on them if they don't want, but at least two or three people should have crossbows cocked and loaded as you move and breach doors, to give each other cover. Once you've engaged the enemy, unleashed the opening volley, and gotten them to come to your defensive position, drop crossbows and arm yourself with preferred weapons.
Just a thought, but it's a way of adding some ranged attacks to a party that's lacking range. No need to specialize, just use them as tools to make up the gap a little.
If they have range, move back out of their field of fire and force them to come hunt you down.
I assume from the OP that the characters are getting jammed up by defenders that meet them at or near the door way.
All the smoke, fire, etc. stuff aside, melees can try what melees do best which is melee with some tactical maneuvers like Bullrush, Overrun, and Trip.
My players use bullrush to create some room for others to move up. They also use Overrun and Tumbling to try to get beyond a line of enemies.
They also just accept that the first one through the door might get a lot of melee and ranged attacks coming at them. It is the high armor class 'tanks' job to be the first one into the breach.
On a side note we play that when you move through a square which is occupied by an ally, the ally counts as an Obstacle. So moving through an ally counts as 2 squares of movement. You can not Charge through an ally so there is some logic to this interpretation of the rules since you can not charge through a square that hampers movement. This is probably not RAI but the RAW below does not specifically specify that there is no penalty, only that you can move through the square. I don't like the idea of a character in the back of the line moving through 5 ally squares with no penalty to get to the front to attack. I am kinda harsh on movement cause I like the characters to have to think about moving in combat and sometimes Delay to let people up front go first. Otherwise movement seems a little too easy and everyone can get just about anywhere they want easily in a typical fight.
Just because the guy all the way in back rolled highest on his Initiative does not necessary mean that he gets to run through everyone else in the party and attack the enemy before anyone else goes. Sometimes the guy in the back is ready to go initiative wise but he still has to wait his 'turn' for the allies up front to move first and engage the enemy which allows him to move up.
Friend: You can move through a square occupied by a friendly character, unless you are charging.
Also I give my players some leeway about moving through (easier to Overrun) or even into squares with prone opponents so they will Trip an opponent to attempt to help make a hole in an enemy line. I don't believe the rules support moving into a prone or ally's square but we house rule that to allow allies to move over a prone ally to protect them or move over a prone enemy which makes it difficult for them to stand up as they must crawl 5 and then stand up. Or attempt some type of combat maneuver to trip, move, or grapple the character standing over them.
As your characters level, make sure that they each load up with feats like Improved Bull Rush, Improved Overrun (my favorite), and Mobility. (I'm sure that at least one or two of your fighters already took Power Attack and someone may have Dodge.) When you run into a choke point, you then have the ability to knock foes prone and get past them. A "cork" with Mobility can freely draw attacks of opportunity (which will almost always miss), allowing other PCs to follow them through any gaps into the enemy's rear. I've found that prone, flanked foes have the lifespan of a June frost.
Additionally, buy tanglefoot bags to cement foes in place. If possible, also pick up some adamantine weapons: They make it simple to hack into areas from unexpected angles, opening a "second front" on many opponents.
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The group I DM for has the same problem. After the first AP tpk. We learned from the mistakes we made. Now the party has 5 players all are combat characters. One front line fighter, One switch hitter ranger, One melee rogue, One reach weapon Oracle, One reach weapon Bard. They put the fighter first followed by the ranger. Then the reach weapons come in. Then the rogue uses acrobatics to move to flank on whats left.
Our group has always played that "anything an earth elemental is carrying earthglides with him", is that not the case? Earthglide itself doesn't specify anything about things you carry, just that "you burrow, swimming through the earth as if it was water."I thought you were assuming the creatures were digging a hole under the floor, that caved in.
It's debatable that they can drag a resisting creature back into the earth with them; I know as GM, I suggested it to the players once, to help them out of a jam, and they pointed out it wasn't feasible.
I think it works like THIS (0:35 onwards).
That's more or less how I visualize it, too.
The hollowing out bit was "one plan", the grappling another.
I sort of visualized hollowing out a floor as being done "traditionally" - get party members to pass you a bag of holding and dig it out like bailing water with a bucket, stoneshape, stone to mud, etc., then caving it in the old fashioned way.
As for the grappling part not being feasible, I think they're wrong.
It specifically says that you're burrowing.
It draws the Fish analogy to depict that you're basically displacing the dirt around you as you move. (edit: wait... fish can grapple and swim...) It's also Extraordinary, and thus non-magical. Since it's non-magical, I'd argue that it's merely a racial way of parting or compacting dirt and moving past it, and that you should be able to move equipment, items, carried objects, etc.
The fluff description of earth elementals later on also indicates "Bits of vegetation frequently grow in the soil that makes up parts of an earth elemental's body." but does not state if that vegetation is left behind when earth gliding, which would be highly useful information in splitting this hair.
Leaving behind no tunnel, sign of your presence, tracks, etc. just seems to indicate that Earth Glide merely comes with it's own form of Trackless Step. I don't know that "leaving no tunnel" is the same as "nothing comes with you" given that it describes pushing earth apart as you burrow. That elementals can also assume any shape also further confounds this a little bit.
So... I'd say it is feasible, but in need of more rules. I'd argue an unwilling creature should probably take crushing damage and get a bonus on CMD to avoid being dragged.
The way my group has handled Earth Glide is that the elemental moves through the earth like a ghost. Literally moving through the earth and not effecting it at all unless it so chooses. Otherwise you got a real logic problem with it displacing the earth but not compacting the earth, causing a budge, or effecting the earth in anyway. Not even a tremor or sound per the no 'sign of its presence.'
While it might move through the earth as 'easily as a fish swims through water' it is very clear that it is not like a fish swimming through water. A fish through water does create a disturbance, does create a ripple and does leave a sign of its presence. Even after the water moves back into place after a fish passes, the water's position is changed. There is a trail of turbulence left behind limited in length only by the accuracy of your detection.
At one point we decided that the elemental could only take objects, kind of like how lots of outsiders can teleport but only themselves and objects.
Other times we have played that big enough elementals can take people but the person gets a last ditch effort to avoid being pulled under as per the grapple rule below:
If you attempt to place your foe in a hazardous location, such as in a wall of fire or over a pit, the target receives a free attempt to break your grapple with a +4 bonus.
I guess the logic being that sure you resist all grapples but you REALLY resist the grapples that are going to kill you. :)
- So basically the elemental has to grapple them (Elemental has to win roll).
- Then on the persons turn they get to attempt to break free (Elemental has to win roll).
- Then the elemental has to attempt to move with them while grappled (Elemental has to win roll).
- Then as a last ditch effort the person gets a free grapple roll to break free with a plus 4 bonus (Elemental has to win roll).
Loss all those rolls and usually you are dead. Even worse than dead really, dead and buried deep underground with little chance of a Raise Dead.
But no sweat I get 4 chance to survive until you remember that a Huge Earth Elemental, a CR 7 challenge, has a CMB +21 which will beat a 7th level fighter with 18 Str on anything but a 1.
Earth Elementals because like the Nuclear Option.
Players start killing GMs' carefully planned enemies with earth elementals so GMs start killing players with earth elementals. Before long the whole world is buried alive. :)
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The Dwarven Inquisitor often can't make it due to work-concerns so hopefully you guys have don't have too many inquisitor-only strategies.OK, so here's an Inquisitor strategy...sorry.
A big problem when besieging a defended room, is when the first person through the door draws the the fire of the whole group of opponents. Then it's "I want to get in! Go further! Make room!", from the rear of the party, vs "I want to get out! Step back! Make room!" from the point guy.
The Teamwork Feat Swap Places can be useful for getting the beaten-up guy back out of danger, and replacing him with someone uninjured.
Due to the Inquisitor's Solo Tactics ability, both he and the target always count as having the feat, and there is no limit to the uses/day.
It's also something that can be done in an emergency, right now, regardless of the Inquisitor's current build, and without the need for levelling, since he has the ability to swap out one of his Teamwork feats several times/day.
Sorry to be nitpicky but Solo Tactics doesn't work this way. You're thinking of the Cavalier's Tactician ability. Solo Tactics treat the Inq's allies as having his feats for the purpose of the Inq alone gaining the benefits. The allies do not benefit from his feats at all.
With as many melee builds as you have some of you should be thinking at this point of taking the various Improved Manuever feats: Bull rush, Overrun, Reposition. The truth is the first guy in the room should be the best armored tank you have and the rest of you should invest in ways of improving your manueverability with dimension Door, the cape of the mountebank, a scroll of passwall, potions of gaseous form, etc. Your Witch really needs some charm spells like command, suggestion, or unnatural lust to make the enemies move out of the way.
--Vrock Trooper
The alchemist is an awesome breacher if you care.
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Sorry to be nitpicky but Solo Tactics doesn't work this way. You're thinking of the Cavalier's Tactician ability. Solo Tactics treat the Inq's allies as having his feats for the purpose of the Inq alone gaining the benefits. The allies do not benefit from his feats at all.
I see where you're coming from with that; you interpret the use of the ability as two people actively and simultaneously using the ability, to move themselves.
I interpret the Swap Places ability as the active person grabbing the target, and pulling them out of danger. The active parson is the one 'benefitting' from the effects of the feat, i.e. being able to dive in at the right moment, and swap places.
Because of her complementary Solo Tactics ability, an Inquisitor is able to read the swirl of battle, and take advantage of openings that go unnnoticed by others, letting them unknowingly set up situations in which she can benefit, whether that be a free attack, an AoO, bonus damage, etc. Or leaving openings for her to reach in and grab an ally.
The target, while moved by the feat, isn't the one 'benefitting' from the feat's ability (or at least, no more so than I 'benefit' from my buddy having Power Attack, when he obliterates the enemy threatening me). He may benefit from now being in a better position, but he has no way of returning the favor.
So, developers; is Swap Places an exception to the rule, as a Teamwork Feat that can't benefit from Solo Tactics? Do both participants need to possess the feat, or have it granted virtually via Tactician?
Also, the druid can easily clear a lane with the 3rd level spell aqueous orb. If his saves are fairly high, it can be used to roll foes out of the way while inflicting a non-negligible amount of nonlethal damage. It makes an ugly combo with freedom of movement (cast on melee-types to let them attack into and out of the orb).
If you had a sorcerer/wizard-type, creat pit can be used in much the same way. Foes blocking the doorway are dropped into the pit (or forced to move), then a nimble fighter-type (with some ranks in Acrobatics) jumps across to raise hell.
The alchemist is an awesome breacher if you care.Damn straight.
I'm actually thinking of talking with my party to make synergizing characters. Alchemist, Ranger/Ninja, Bard, oracle/cleric/witch, archer/tank. I want my party to be somewhat like a spec ops team. Alchemist will be explosives expert, Ninja will be the scout, Bard will be the face, caster will be the mastermind, and the 5th member will be the eyes.
If you're going A-team, the Bard needs to use illusions to make the enemies think they're under attack from both sides, and be named Frankie. :D
summon nature ally 4, Rhino
let him run through the door, over any ennemy behind it, into (or till the other end of) the room. Ennemies will attack rhino, = first half of the room is either empty or full of ranged ennemies (= empty after 1 round).
If I were "tuning" the party to improve their ability to breach choke points, I'd consider the following:
Human Barbarian Purchase an adamantine axe and take the Improved Overrun feat. He can quickly breach doors or overrun foes and turn to crush them.
Human Samurai He can serve as a second rank fighter, and can take Combat Expertise anImproved Tripfocus on tripping foes with polearms.
Halfling Rogue Take Dodge and Mobility, or Combat Expertise and Improved Trip/Disarm, then purchase elven boots and max out Acrobatics to tumble through foes' spaces.
Halfling Witch Back away from blasting and mix in a bit more support: Take slumber hex and ward hex; darkness and fly as spells. With an Agility patron, haste would suit the group very well.
Half-elf Druid Needs to cast a bit more. Summon something to screw up the enemy (something that grabs, trips, or grapples), THEN join the battle.
Half-Orc Cleric Enlarge person will let him become an effective second-rank combatant. Carry a longspear in case more reach is needed.
Dwarven Inquisitor Take Improved Bull Rush and (if Dex is decent) load up on Acrobatics, picking up elven boots and mithral plate armor: Dwarves can tumble in medium armor!
I admit that some of these ideas may seem strange, but some should be possible.