| 4 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
So as we all know, grapple was altered in pathfinder to allow a grappled character to cast a spell with somatic components as long as it he makes his concentration check, right? The text under the "grappled condition" entry makes no mention of somatic spells, and says that anything that doesn't require the use of two hands can be done in a grapple. AFAIK it was clarified somewhere that casting a spell with somatic components only takes one hand.
But… (and I really did do a double take when I read the below text. I thought I knew how grappling was supposed to work.)
"Grappling or Pinned
The only spells you can cast while grappling or pinned are those without somatic components and whose material components (if any) you have in hand. Even so, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + the grappler's CMB + the level of the spell you're casting) or lose the spell."
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Concentration
also,
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magic.html
What gives? At first I assumed the above to be holdover text from 3.5 but then I saw the reference to CMB. This entry doesn't directly contradict the "grappled condition" entry, but rather further qualifies it. I know that the grappled condition has been explained ad nauseam by the devs, and has been the subject of some errata, but AFAIK, the above entry on spell-casting while grappled found in the magic section has never been errata'ed. How did this escape their attention?
So am I right to assume this is an oversight, or am I missing something about how grapple interacts with somatic spell-casting?
That is intentional. If someone has you in a hold it is not likely that you can pull out the material component you need. Casting also requires very precise movement which is also hard to do. That is why most casters get dimension door. It only requires a verbal component.
Considering how hard it is to get to caster, and get your hands on him, he should be in a world of trouble once you do so.
That's how it was in 3.5. But check out the following text:
"In addition, grappled creatures can take no action that requires two hands to perform. A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell."
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/conditions#TOC-Grappled
We all know that somatic spells only take 1 hand to cast. Witness the magus and spell combat. Furthermore, the devs had the opportunity to include text in the grappled condition mentioning the restrictions on somatic casting, but chose not to. Additionally, they've been on record as saying that it was their intention to make grappled a less severe condition then it was in 3.5.
I found the following thread in which this exact question was discussed, but no conclusion was reached.
http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz1mrw?Spell-casting-while-grappled#0
Back when concentration was a skill, it was a piece of cake. Concentration means something now, and you better believe it.
Unfortunately, IMO, CMB scales really really fast compared to how quickly concentration modifiers scale. The concentrator has only caster level and casting stat adding, whereas the grappler gets BAB, Strength, and any other modifiers to attack rolls.
Thus, by the time you get DimDoor, it's likely that you'll be unlikely to actually use it in a grapple, because the CMBs of the things grappling you are so high.
This also means that barring Freedom of Movement and other anti-grapple spells, PC grapplers can often one-shot spellcasters. I just think the change goes a little too far towards a binary environment.
Just my thoughts,
-Matt
Back when concentration was a skill, it was a piece of cake. Concentration means something now, and you better believe it.
Concentration means something sure, but maybe less than you think. Seems that you might not get many opportunities to make concentration checks when grappled at all. You might simply not be able to cast, period.
Back when concentration was a skill, it was a piece of cake. Concentration means something now, and you better believe it.Unfortunately, IMO, CMB scales really really fast compared to how quickly concentration modifiers scale. The concentrator has only caster level and casting stat adding, whereas the grappler gets BAB, Strength, and any other modifiers to attack rolls.
Thus, by the time you get DimDoor, it's likely that you'll be unlikely to actually use it in a grapple, because the CMBs of the things grappling you are so high.
This also means that barring Freedom of Movement and other anti-grapple spells, PC grapplers can often one-shot spellcasters. I just think the change goes a little too far towards a binary environment.
Just my thoughts,
-Matt
Right, but what about not getting a chance to even make that concentration check in the first place, because you're grappled? I thought Pathfinder did away with that, but apparently not…?
|
Back when concentration was a skill, it was a piece of cake. Concentration means something now, and you better believe it.Concentration means something sure, but maybe less than you think. Seems that you might not get many opportunities to make concentration checks when grappled at all. You might simply not be able to cast, period.
Yup.
Don't get grappled.
Casters are squishy, I think it is intentional for balance.
DD comes on line at level 7.
A resident grappler for a CR 7 monster is the Dire Bear:CMB +15
The DC would be 15+10+4=29
Level 7 caster=7(caster level) +5(casting attribute which could be higher) +4(combat casting)=16 concentration base before dice are rolled.
That means against a level appropriate monster focused on grappling you can get out with a 13, and that is casting your highest level spell.
Yeah it is below 50%, but for a squishy man being tied up by an apex predator he is not doing bad.
What gives? At first I assumed the above to be holdover text from 3.5 but then I saw the reference to CMB. This entry doesn't directly contradict the "grappled condition" entry, but rather further qualifies it. I know that the grappled condition has been explained ad nauseam by the devs, and has been the subject of some errata, but AFAIK, the above entry on spell-casting while grappled found in the magic section has never been errata'ed. How did this escape their attention?
The only spells you can cast while grappling or pinned are those without somatic components and whose material components (if any) you have in hand. Even so, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + the grappler's CMB + the level of the spell you're casting) or lose the spell."
This section is in error.
_____
There is an incongruence btw the magic chapter and the grappled condition (and a few other spots). This will be cleared up, but the grappled condition wins out here.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
What gives? At first I assumed the above to be holdover text from 3.5 but then I saw the reference to CMB. This entry doesn't directly contradict the "grappled condition" entry, but rather further qualifies it. I know that the grappled condition has been explained ad nauseam by the devs, and has been the subject of some errata, but AFAIK, the above entry on spell-casting while grappled found in the magic section has never been errata'ed. How did this escape their attention?The only spells you can cast while grappling or pinned are those without somatic components and whose material components (if any) you have in hand. Even so, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + the grappler's CMB + the level of the spell you're casting) or lose the spell."
This section is in error.
_____
There is an incongruence btw the magic chapter and the grappled condition (and a few other spots). This will be cleared up, but the grappled condition wins out here.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Yes! I knew I wasn't crazy! Thank you!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yes! I knew I wasn't crazy!
Lets not get ahead of ourselves here.... :)
It's been almost a year now. We might want to FAQ that statement to remind them.
Back when concentration was a skill, it was a piece of cake. Concentration means something now, and you better believe it.Unfortunately, IMO, CMB scales really really fast compared to how quickly concentration modifiers scale. The concentrator has only caster level and casting stat adding, whereas the grappler gets BAB, Strength, and any other modifiers to attack rolls.
Thus, by the time you get DimDoor, it's likely that you'll be unlikely to actually use it in a grapple, because the CMBs of the things grappling you are so high.
This also means that barring Freedom of Movement and other anti-grapple spells, PC grapplers can often one-shot spellcasters. I just think the change goes a little too far towards a binary environment.
Just my thoughts,
-Matt
I agree, the DCs are literally impossible, and the higher level you get, the harder it becomes. Casting while being pinned, sure that should be hard or impossible. But grappled? Which is a less serious status (don't share squares, don't lose dex to AC, etc...) than it was in 3E otherwise? Why is someone holding one of my arms making it literally TWICE as hard to cast as it would be if I were in a freaking tornado? And yes, I have actually seen grapple concentraton DCs in one of my PF games be that high.
Of course, I also hate tying tumbling DCs to CMB/CMD, and I think the combat maneuver system in general is completely broken and avoid effects that use those numbers as much as possible...
Of course, I also hate tying tumbling DCs to CMB/CMD, and I think the combat maneuver system in general is completely broken and avoid effects that use those numbers as much as possible...
You're right, I've always found Acrobatics a bit wonky.
EDIT re: Wraithstrike: That's what I get for making late-night posts. Thanks for correcting me.
-Matt
Combat Casting
You are adept at spellcasting when threatened or distracted.
Benefit: You get a +4 bonus on concentration checks made to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability when casting on the defensive or while grappled.
Of course, I also hate tying tumbling DCs to CMB/CMD, and I think the combat maneuver system in general is completely broken and avoid effects that use those numbers as much as possible...
In my games, I house-rule tumble check DCs to be CMD - 5 to avoid AOOs at half speed, and CMD to do it at full speed. Frankly, I think that's high enough. Considering characters can always 5 ft step to achieve a similar result without risk, why shouldn't a char tricked out in acrobatics get the chance to actually make their check?
|
|
I agree, the DCs are literally impossible, and the higher level you get, the harder it becomes. Casting while being pinned, sure that should be hard or impossible. But grappled? Which is a less serious status (don't share squares, don't lose dex to AC, etc...) than it was in 3E otherwise? Why is someone holding one of my arms making it literally TWICE as hard to cast as it would be if I were in a freaking tornado?
Because in one situation you have your hands free and in one you are being bear hugged by a very powerful creature.
I'm pretty sure if you're being thrown around at over a hundred miles per hour in the maelstrom of a tornado, you would not actually have free use of your arms. No one would be holding them down, but good luck trying to move them under your own power!
|
|
I'm pretty sure if you're being thrown around at over a hundred miles per hour in the maelstrom of a tornado, you would not actually have free use of your arms. No one would be holding them down, but good luck trying to move them under your own power!
And I'm pretty sure if you are being pinned by a huge (or larger) creature your freedom of movement would be even more hindered.
I missed that. A 13 is not literally impossible, but it should be difficult as I mentioned above.
I have wrestled around when I was younger. It is hard to move like you want to when you are in a full nelson or most any other hold, which is what grappling represents to a large extent.
Yeah a tornado is not a good place to be, but my fingers still have precise movement, and I can pull item X out of my pouch.
I'm pretty sure if you're being thrown around at over a hundred miles per hour in the maelstrom of a tornado, you would not actually have free use of your arms. No one would be holding them down, but good luck trying to move them under your own power!And I'm pretty sure if you are being pinned by a huge (or larger) creature your freedom of movement would be even more hindered.
I said I was ok with pinning having very hard DC.
Casting while being pinned, sure that should be hard or impossible.
Grappling is not pinning. In PF, grappling is barely more than holding onto someone, you're not even in the same space. The concentration DC is the SAME, whether you're grappled or pinned, instead of not that hard (grappled) vs. very hard (pinned).
|
|
I'm pretty sure if you're being thrown around at over a hundred miles per hour in the maelstrom of a tornado, you would not actually have free use of your arms. No one would be holding them down, but good luck trying to move them under your own power!And I'm pretty sure if you are being pinned by a huge (or larger) creature your freedom of movement would be even more hindered.I said I was ok with pinning having very hard DC.
Casting while being pinned, sure that should be hard or impossible.Grappling is not pinning. In PF, grappling is barely more than holding onto someone, you're not even in the same space. The concentration DC is the SAME, whether you're grappled or pinned, instead of not that hard (grappled) vs. very hard (pinned).
If you are grappled, you are held in the controlled grasp of something. If it has a really high CMB, it is very, very good at grappling.
Wraithstrike nailed it above.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Not necessarily. If I grab you firmly by the wrist, leaving your other arm free to move however you want, you would be considered "grappled" by Pathfinder rules (and the frustration here is that it has been clarified that you only need one free hand to provide somatic components).
If I have you in that full nelson, that would be considered "pinned" by Pathfinder rules.
I totally agree with Stream here. Grappling shouldn't affect casting anywhere nearly as bad as Pinning, but currently, they're both equally hard to cast through.
|
|
Not necessarily. If I grab you firmly by the wrist, leaving your other arm free to move however you want, you would be considered "grappled" by Pathfinder rules (and the frustration here is that it has been clarified that you only need one free hand to provide somatic components).
If I have you in that full nelson, that would be considered "pinned" by Pathfinder rules.I totally agree with Stream here. Grappling shouldn't affect casting anywhere nearly as bad as Pinning, but currently, they're both equally hard to cast through.
Citation?
We know that wearing armor generally effects somatic casting, it isn't unreasonable that being restrained would effect it even more so. In one circumstance you can move freely but are disoriented (tornado) in the other you can't move freely and depending on how you are grappled may be disoriented as well.
I see no issue at all.
Not necessarily. If I grab you firmly by the wrist, leaving your other arm free to move however you want, you would be considered "grappled" by Pathfinder rules (and the frustration here is that it has been clarified that you only need one free hand to provide somatic components).
If I have you in that full nelson, that would be considered "pinned" by Pathfinder rules.I totally agree with Stream here. Grappling shouldn't affect casting anywhere nearly as bad as Pinning, but currently, they're both equally hard to cast through.
That(holding my hand) is not a grapple especially since it does not restrict me from moving, which a grapple does. A full nelson prevents you from moving, and a pin is something that would make me flatfooted. Even in a full nelson I have enough movement to potentially dodge a blow.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Citation?
It's in the "Unofficial FAQ" so take it however you will, but I still think it bears considering:
First question under Grappling:
Q: Can a monk do a Flurry of Blows during a grapple as it requires a full attack action?
A: (Jason Bulmahn 12/11/09) The RAW do allow the grappled to make a full attack action, assuming they can do so with only one hand. Since flurry does not require two hands to perform, a monk could flurry. Grappling is not always the best idea. Grappling a monk is one such example. I think folks need to remember that the grappled condition is not as severe as it once was. You are no longer draped all over the target. It is more like you got a hold on them, typically an arm (hence the restriction). The pinned condition is more of your greco-roman wrestling hold.
|
|
This thread sums up why I dislike what Paizo did to Grapple in Pathfinder even though I am completely okay with it in 3.5.
Spreading the rules around the books (in several different chapters) means stuff like this gets overlooked. If this is an error (or at least is now recognised as not making sense desppite being initially intended) it needs to be added to the errata lists.
By trying to make things simpler by making a blanket statement of "Instead of attempting to break or reverse the grapple, you can take any action that doesn't require two hands to perform" they introduce such ambiguity.
An I disagree that being subject to the Grappled condition means you are in a full nelson or the like, simply due to the fact that both opponents have the Grappled condition, even though one is considered the Grappler (another thing I really dislike about PF grappling, they try to indicate a currently winning grappler, even when no one is pinned).
Ah well, I guess the question is for me - for Pathfinder Society is Jason Bulmahn's post of June 3rd, 2010, 10:54 PM good enough to indicate that you can cast a spell with Somatic components whilst Grappled, even though that has not hit the Errata yet?
Maybe Jason's knowledge of wrestling is limited so he made a bad analogy.
I know a wrestling hold does not restrict movement like a pin does in the game.
I also know what that with a wrestling hold I would not be denied dex in real life, but it would be more difficult to move which is what grappling does.
|
|
I see Grappling as basically in Judo when the opponents have both grabbed each other, both are still on the feet (or knees) and just pulling and pushing looking for that opportunity to go in for a lock, or to sweep, or throw. They can't easily dodge others but are by no means helpless or in a lock.
However PF throws in the idea of a winning grappler (which to me would be when one opponent has achieved a pin, but that is not how Paizo define it) which does make my idea a little off - in PF the "winning" grappler can end the grapple automatically and gain a +5 bonus to checks indicating a significant upper hand in the grapple - yet both have the same condition; Grappled.
In Pathfinder you almost need to split the Grappled condition into two - Grappling and Grappled, as the options of action differ between who is winning (Grappler can end the grapple as a free action, Grappled can Full Attack the grappler).
For me the differentiation of who is winning a Grapple when neither are pinned is unecessary complexity that Paizo added in, and leads to confusion like this about what the Grappled condition is trying to reflect.
|
|
Citation?It's in the "Unofficial FAQ" so take it however you will, but I still think it bears considering:
First question under Grappling:
Q: Can a monk do a Flurry of Blows during a grapple as it requires a full attack action?A: (Jason Bulmahn 12/11/09) The RAW do allow the grappled to make a full attack action, assuming they can do so with only one hand. Since flurry does not require two hands to perform, a monk could flurry. Grappling is not always the best idea. Grappling a monk is one such example. I think folks need to remember that the grappled condition is not as severe as it once was. You are no longer draped all over the target. It is more like you got a hold on them, typically an arm (hence the restriction). The pinned condition is more of your greco-roman wrestling hold.
A monk can also flurry with any limb, including legs. The one free hand also has a penalty to attack, meaning it is in some ways hindered.
If you look up greco-roman wrestling, you will find it is much more than just "grabbing someone firmly by the wrist", which is what you said.
If you look up greco-roman wrestling, you will find it is much more than just "grabbing someone firmly by the wrist", which is what you said.
I wasn't trying to suggest that greco-roman wrestling was just "grabbing someone by the wrist." I was suggesting that grabbing someone by the wrist was technically a grapple, and it's silly to assume that restricts a caster from doing somatic components as much as putting the caster in a full nelson with their face to the ground.
|
|
If you look up greco-roman wrestling, you will find it is much more than just "grabbing someone firmly by the wrist", which is what you said.I wasn't trying to suggest that greco-roman wrestling was just "grabbing someone by the wrist." I was suggesting that grabbing someone by the wrist was technically a grapple, and it's silly to assume that restricts a caster from doing somatic components as much as putting the caster in a full nelson with their face to the ground.
But no one but you has said that it is "grabbing someone by the wrist".
What you referenced when I asked for a citation said that a grapple is more like a wrestling hold, which is more than just grabbing someone by the wrist.
My reading of what he is saying is that a grapple is like a wrestling hold while a pin is actually holding someone completely immobile.
Either one is going to make it very difficult to cast spells, in the same way that taking damage while casting makes it very difficult to cast spells.
The question was "Is being held in a wrestling hold something that causes more challenge to casting than being in a tornado" to which I answer, depends on who is holding you in a wrestling hold and how good they are at it.
What you referenced when I asked for a citation said that a grapple is more like a wrestling hold, which is more than just grabbing someone by the wrist.
My reading of what he is saying is that a grapple is like a wrestling hold while a pin is actually holding someone completely immobile.
Not at all. Read it again.
He says that a grapple is like getting someone in an arm hold, and that a pin is more like the wrestling holds that people imagine when you say "grapple." The word "wrestling" doesn't even come up until he's describing a pin.|
|
This is what you said
If I grab you firmly by the wrist, leaving your other arm free to move however you want, you would be considered "grappled" by Pathfinder rules
And that is what I dispute. The other hand isn't free to move however you want. It is impeded at least to the point where you take a -2 to attack roles and they can not make an attack of opportunity with that hand. And that is without discussing the dexterity issue.
That arm isn't unimpeded, a simple wrist grab is not a grapple by pathfinder rules. The citation you gave to say it was described a wrestling hold, which is significantly more that "grab you firmly by the wrist leaving your other arm free to move however you want."
Grappling has historically been compared to a bear hug. Sure you have some ability to attack, but your mobility is seriously lessened. This is what effects casting and forces a concentration check. There is holding someones arm in an armbar and there is grabbing someones wrist.
This is what you said
If I grab you firmly by the wrist, leaving your other arm free to move however you want, you would be considered "grappled" by Pathfinder rulesAnd that is what I dispute. The other hand isn't free to move however you want. It is impeded at least to the point where you take a -2 to attack roles and they can not make an attack of opportunity with that hand. And that is without discussing the dexterity issue.
I was using a real-life example to illustrate my point. I'm sure you could waggle your free-hand/fingers if I've got you in an arm bar.
[Edit - Also, please, note that I'm not arguing that the "grappled" condition shouldn't have some penalty. It should, that's obvious. What I'm arguing is that the "grappled" penalty should be less than the "pinned" penalty, not equal to it.
Grappling has historically been compared to a bear hug.
Historically is not now. In 3.X this was true. Apparently in PF they've changed their minds on this one, at least according to the quote I referenced. If you want to ignore that in your games, that's fine, but that doesn't mean your way is "the" way.
The RAW has been worded in such a way as to be confusing. The RAI has been provided. If you don't like the RAI, well, that's on you.
Besides, if you've got me in a traditional full nelson, how does that make it harder for me to speak a word (for spells such as dimension door that have no material OR somatic components?)
If I'm pinned, maybe you're smothering/squeezing me enough to muffle me. If I'm only grappled, how so?
|
|
If you are the "losing" party in a grapple and you attempt to cast a spell you need to do so while being impeded by the Grappler.
[...]
You are in a grapple against your will, and there are consequences for that. It is fair and reasonable.
What is your opinion on the fact that the "winning" grappler cannot attempt to cast a spell at all, unless he chooses to either release the grapple or gets the grappled reversed on him? Even if he pins his opponent he can't cast a spell and maintain the grapple.
It sort of makes sense in that he is likely the actor in the grapple, but it does make me feel that even more that the Grappled condition should be split out into two different conditions.
|
Combat Casting
You are adept at spellcasting when threatened or distracted.
Benefit: You get a +4 bonus on concentration checks made to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability when casting on the defensive or while grappled.
I had missed this change to combat casting. It makes it a lot more attractive to casters now.
Besides, if you've got me in a traditional full nelson, how does that make it harder for me to speak a word (for spells such as dimension door that have no material OR somatic components?)
If I'm pinned, maybe you're smothering/squeezing me enough to muffle me. If I'm only grappled, how so?
That was just an example. In any case you are in a bad position. The fluff can probably be explained as each word having to come out perfectly, and maybe due to positioning of the airway or his arm across your throat speaking is difficult.
|
That was just an example. In any case you are in a bad position. The fluff can probably be explained as each word having to come out perfectly, and maybe due to positioning of the airway or his arm across your throat speaking is difficult.Besides, if you've got me in a traditional full nelson, how does that make it harder for me to speak a word (for spells such as dimension door that have no material OR somatic components?)
If I'm pinned, maybe you're smothering/squeezing me enough to muffle me. If I'm only grappled, how so?
I also viewed it as casting was not just finger wiggling and shouting words, but you would have to get into the right frame of mind to get it to work (and concentrate). After all, otherwise casting a verbal spell would be no more cause an AoO in combat then speaking. Maybe getting into the right frame of mind and concentrating on it is hard to do when someone is attempting to wrench your arm from it's socket while they try to maneuver you into position for a pin.
What Happler said about concentration also..... :)
|
|
Besides, if you've got me in a traditional full nelson, how does that make it harder for me to speak a word (for spells such as dimension door that have no material OR somatic components?)
If I'm pinned, maybe you're smothering/squeezing me enough to muffle me. If I'm only grappled, how so?
Having someone pushing your head down and trying to break your neck will not hamper you speech?
.....You must be made by sturdier materials than me.
Wands of ddoor, cape of the mountebank(sp), etc.
And of course the contingency spell.
There are plenty of ways for a spell caster to work this out. You just have to change your thinking a little to reflect the change in the edition.
-James
This is, essentially, a true statement, but it's worth noting that wands, staves and (presumably) the cape of the mountebank use the spell activation method, which may still require grapple checks (the magic item rules aren't clear here, and I've not heard it discussed in other rules sections). At the very least, wands and staves must be in hand to use, making them less helpful here. If I need a grapple check to "draw" my wand first (and think I can make it), I may be better off just escaping the grapple in the first place. From that perspective, I'd rather have a ring of freedom of movement if I can afford one.
Your mage certainly wants to avoid grappling, it's true, but it may be unfair to assume that magic items make all your problems go away. They can't always be relied upon, and it's not fair to assume that a PC always has the ability to get the specific item they need when they need it.
This, in my opinion, is one reason why party wizards should make friends with party fighters, and why BBEG mages have strong minions.
|
|
A grappled creature is restrained by a creature, trap, or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity. A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple. In addition, grappled creatures can take no action that requires two hands to perform. A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell. Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity.
A grappled creature cannot use Stealth to hide from the creature grappling it, even if a special ability, such as hide in plain sight, would normally allow it to do so. If a grappled creature becomes invisible, through a spell or other ability, it gains a +2 circumstance bonus on its CMD to avoid being grappled, but receives no other benefit.
It say nothing about an impossibility to draw an item.
The magic section say you need to already have the components in your hand, but retrieving a wand from your belt is different from rummaging into your component pouch to get the right components.