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Hello everyone,
I was wondering if you have any tips to share that would help our group to speed things up during fights?
We are a group of 2 to 7 players (+1 GM) depending on the weeks, and we play 4 campaigns simutaneously, each with a different GM.
I'm the only one insisting on playing with a map, because I feel like we lose too much on tactics without it, since movement in PF is so important, I think precision about it is required. It makes the player think much longer about tactics and positionning but, on the other hand, seriously shortens "storytelling tactics issues" (ie: "Oh, I didn't understand i was THAT close to that Girallon..if I did I would never have made that move/use that spell blah blah blah...)
That being said, I find our fights to be much too long. Important fights will last an hour or more on a regular basis, many of our players need to look through books during the fight to search for the precise effect of a spell or mechanics of a maneuver, and so on.
I can't ask every player to know the full set of rules perfectly, especially since there are so many books filled with options (besides, i spend most fighting time looking at details about my wiz spells myself..).
So I was wondering if you had any advices to help me make fights faster.
I thought about things like:
- At low level, throw attack AND damage dices simultaneously
- At higher level throw all attack dices simultaneously.
- Use two dices to keep track of PC's bonus and malus
- Printing extensives spell lists for every spell casting character, maybe even outlining the frequently used ones.
- Using bristol cards to keep track beforehand of the actual bonuses to attack and damage you'll have for everykind of attack you may come up with (charging, power attacking and so on)
I thought about instoring a time limit to make a decision in-fight, but I think a few of my players won't enjoy this much.
What else could be done?
Remind the player who is next that they are next and should have their action ready once the current player's turn is over.
Use 3 x 5 cards to track PC and NPC initiative.
Be a firm DM. Make quick decisions and move on. Keep things rolling and look up any controversial rulings AFTER the game is done--or at least after the encounter is over. If you were wrong and they were right--but accepted your decision nice and quickly, give them a Hero point or some extra XP.
Make sure all the players know how to read their character sheets, especially AC, touch AC, flat-footed AC, CMD, Saving Throws, primary weapon and spell stats, primary magic item stats.
If a PC cannot make a decision in 1 or 2 minutes (or need to look up a rule or something), make them delay their action and go on to the next player. After that player's turn is done, return to the delayed player and see if they are ready; if not, continue their delay and move on to the next player, repeat as needed.
Rely on the rule lawyers if you don't know a rule. If no one does, make something up and move on.
Thanks for your input.
We already keep track of initiatives on the map.
I guess I have to be more directive, not so easy to do with long time friends! =)
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Our group at any time has 7-9 players here what we come up with.
- I agree on a 1 minute rule on their turn
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- Also pre-rolls if you guys trust each other for honest rolls. having your actions pre-planned out and pre-rolled saves alot of time. Roll to hit and damage dice together and have enough dice to not have to keep re-rolling a single die over and over. If you have a 10d6 fireball have 10d6's.
- I also agree with smilodan that call the rules on the go and look up the specifics after combat. play it by ear and to the best that you know but rule and move on do not look up stuff during combat.
- Casters should have spell cards for all spells.
* If they have to look up a spell do it before their turn, if they are doing it on their turn... you have lost the "battle" for a quicker battle scene...
- I use a 1 minute plastic hour glass on each players turn. an Egg timer works just as well.
- If they are not paying attention... loose a turn as they "study the tactical situation". Basically if you have to tell them its their turn and they look at you like ummm.... You move on. Cross talk kills in large groups.
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I just make a home made pad with name, ac, touch, flat, cmd, will and perception on it. I have my players roll initiative at the end of the last combat to use in the new combat. I make perception tests for them as we roll up to an encounter and tell them what they see, i used to give them the option of hero pointing those perception roles but no one ever did so i stopped.
While setting the scene i draw the map and ask them to position theirselves while i set up the combat order and roll initiative for npc's, the suprise round goes off then we get down to combat.
Every player has a postit for combat stats and hp tracking and we use a huge die for bless/haste etc, the caster keeps track of the buff effect but its easy to write haste on the initiative tracker underneath the caster and tick off rounds as you move down. I have a first answer only policy and run an audit on character sheets every two or three levels, this came in after we had a paladin who hit ac 20 for 18 damage, miss, sorry 21 with haste, miss, oh 22 with bless, miss, oh 25 with my cha for smite, miss...
I expect people to know what their spells do but the first time someone casts a spell they should read the full text out loud to the table and describe the effect, save dc etc so everyone knows whats happening. I have a phone app for summoning, spell indexing and pf srd for conditions etc, i would also recommend making a cheat sheet for combat maneouvers and putting it on the wall.
Other things that could be handy are a whiteboard for status/spell tracking and keeping everyones vital stats in plain view, this also helps your healer know who he needs to help out. The repetition trick, make a session dedicated to grappling monsters and by the time the pc's fight the nth npc the grapples them they know the grappling rules.
Thanks for the help people!
In the end, I guess I have to prepare things ahead and encourage players to note down anything that will be handy during a fight beforehand.
And be firm about the time accepted to take a decision
Looks good indeed.
Don't know if I can find it easily in France though.
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This might sound a little theatrical, but I always make my group stand for combat.
We have an area for role-play and a seperate area for combat where the maps are laid out and mini's pulled out ahead of time... when its time for combat everyone gets up and goes to stand around the combat table - it creates a subconscious sense of urgency I've found.
The other thing is that I never - EVER - have groups of more than five players. Four is my ideal. Big groups seem to inevitably have trouble getting everyone to show up on time (or even show up) and always have somebody wandering off when its not their turn.
Funny that you would say that as I noticed when fighting time comes up, I always stand up, whether I'm Dming or playing. Never really tried to understand why, but you juste made it clear!
Our groups usually only exceed 5 players when someone decides he will finally show up after declining. And it's always a messy game afterwards. That's how we ended up 7 player last time and how I decided to make this post since the game was really hectic.
To me the most wasted time is rolling for initiative, so combat manager solves that problem, plus it makes it super easy for dm to keep track of other bonuses and can add monsters on a whim, or look at rules using the same program, oh it can also throw lots of dice making those 10d6 fireballs not a hassle anymore! really awesome program!
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To me the most wasted time is rolling for initiative, so combat manager solves that problem, plus it makes it super easy for dm to keep track of other bonuses and can add monsters on a whim, or look at rules using the same program, oh it can also throw lots of dice making those 10d6 fireballs not a hassle anymore! really awesome program!
I second, third, and fourth this. Combat Manager is free and awesome. Rolling initiative automatically, plus easy tracking of HP, stats, and just about everything else, PLUS access to d20pfsrd's beastiary and other content all in one place is amazing. If I didn't use it, I think my combat would run at least a 30% longer than it does now. It eliminates a LOT of paper and junk that I'd otherwise have to carry around and flip through.
Also, all spell casters should either have their spells in memory or printed out for quick reference.
I have my players roll initiative at the end of the last combat to use in the new combat.
This is a great idea I think, especially if you also make the initiative rolls for the bad guys in each encounter when you're making the encounter, then its just a matter of dropping everybody into their place.
Also, and this goes without saying, when it comes to bad guys initiative should be rolled from groups of monsters, not individuals.
Combat Manager?
Didn't know about this program, I'll give it a try, although I usually prefer to DM with good ol'pen, brain and paper.
I have my players roll initiative at the end of the last combat to use in the new combat.This is a great idea I think, especially if you also make the initiative rolls for the bad guys in each encounter when you're making the encounter, then its just a matter of dropping everybody into their place.
Also, and this goes without saying, when it comes to bad guys initiative should be rolled from groups of monsters, not individuals.
When i preroll i normally roll for each creature type, for example a group of 4 goblins, with 2 goblin dogs, lead by a goblin chieftan(ftr3) on an advanced(simple template) goblin dog, with the shaman(sorc2) and his weasle familiar within earshot and another 6 goblins within shouting range of the shaman.
I roll 1 for the 4 goblins, 1 for the 2 dogs, 1 for the chief and 1 for his dog, 1 for the shaman and them the other 6 goblins use the same as the first 4.
This means i can have the encounter starting with all the goblins making perception checks, the goblin king acting before the goblins but holding his action till a pc charges forward then hitting that pc when he is out of possition just before his goblins act and move to protect him, then the doga move forward to harrass the other pc's. If the shaman hears the fight and comes in he alerts the other goblins and arrives in the second round and acts at -5 init(if the pc's avoid adds and meet him later he acts at full init). The other six goblins arrive d3 rounds after the shaman at 2 per round for 3 rounds and act at -5 init in the first rounds (if they add on the fight with the shaman later they also act at -5 or just normal init if encountered as wandering monsters in the lair). The advanced goblin dog yawns lazily on the first round of combat the pushes through the goblins on the second round to flank with the cheiftan.
Thats a CR 5 ish encounter for 5 pc's that should take about 30-50 mins to run depending on your players and your own preperation and system mastery. I just made that up on the train btw, stating everything would probably take an hour or two including treasure and map drawing etc.
Another thing I do when I'm GMing and have time to prep is to write up the monsters like an NPC. I use regular loose leaf paper for my PCs, and I have a system or template or whatever for my PC character sheets, which I am really used to, so it is a lot easier to GM if the dragon, naga sorcerer, ogre mage, etc., is also statted up like an NPC instead of using the standard Pathfinder stat block. Also, re-writing the monster stats gives me a bit of a handle on what they can do, so I don't have to hem and haw about what the combat options are for my monsters.
We have a sometimes large group for one of my games, usually 5 players, but it can go as high as 10 players. A couple of months ago I read of someone else's alternate initiative method, we tried it out and it's worked really well for us.
Here's some background theory on the rule. Typically most GM's roll once for the bad guys, so there's less to keep track of (though not always). This means if you have 12 orcs with the same initiative bonus, they all go on the same initiative count. Some of the players might beat the orcs and go first, but after the orcs first action you get a basic rhythm:
All the players go
All the orcs go
All the players go
All the orcs go
During the players "phase", they can delay actions to reorder themselves all they want, setting up the initiative order of the players every round to whatever works best for them. This alternate method just makes this the standard instead of having to use special initiative actions to do so.
Instead of each PC rolling initiative, we have one person roll for the group. There are several methods of determining who goes first, but the important part is to have everyone roll roughly equally over the course of the campaign. We have the most appropriate person roll usually, for example if the Barbarian starts the bar-fight, he rolls, if the Rogue starts the ambush, he rolls, etc. Otherwise we just pick someone who hasn't rolled in a while.
The player phase ends either when everyone has gone, or there's a lull in player involvement (ie, if someone isn't paying attention), then the GM starts. Once the GM starts, if you missed your action, tough luck.
For our group, this has resulted in faster combat. People are planning out their actions better. People are also working together better, there's a lot of "Hey, if you let me go first I'll give you a bonus to what you're doing". There is none of this:
GM: Bob, it's your turn
Bob: Give me a sec, I gotta look up what this spell does.
Because if that happens, someone else goes. If Bob takes too long, he loses his turn, so usually Bob starts looking up the spell sooner, rather than waiting for his turn to start. The only time it does happen is with some of the goofier spells (like Magic Jar got used this weekend, so we had to look it up and reread it quick as a group).
The rule works so well for us that one of the players has taken it to another group he plays in and they've adopted it with success as well.
Well, since there are so many wonderful ideas already posted, here is the nearly-obligatory snarky one.
Cast Haste! :)
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I have a quick-n-easy rule: if a player doesn't know exactly how his spell works, exactly what his summoned monster stats are, exactly how his tactics work, exactly what his AC is, whatever -- then I get to invent the specifics out of the ether.
Me: "What's your summoned balor's AC and hp?"
Player: (Opens Bestiary) "AC? Ummm..."
Me: "OK, good, he's AC 10" (rolls dice) "That's a hit, 10 points of damage, the balor is killed. Derek, it's your turn."
Our session yesterday, doing Sins of the Saviours... was essentially one long uninterupted fight. Roughly 18 rounds in total. Took five and a half hours.
Yeah, see, I would be long gone if any fight took more than an hour and a half, real time*. When I run a game, "boss" combats might take 30 minutes; everything else less than that.
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Some things that I have seen work well:
1) If you are doing things old school, preroll initiative for all the enemies. You can do this long before the session starts. Just write their initiative down next to their names. Then you are only waiting for the players.
2) Players need to be working on their tactics before their turns come up. There are exceptions. I have seen our wizard scrolling through his spells and just before his turn comes up, the situation has changed and he needs to do something else. I usually give players a moment if this happens.
3) Everyone should roll attack and damage at the same time. If there is a miss chance, roll that before anything else. No need to roll percentile. 20% miss, roll a d10 and if it's a 1 or 2 it's a miss. 50% miss chance, then 1-5 is a miss.
4) In our Beginner Box campaign, my GM has one of his sons keep track of initiative. He has everything written down and just calls out names when it's our turn. The kid is 9 and it's how he gets to game with us.
5) If you have pre-drawn maps, you may find it easier than drawing things every time. One of my friends had a bunch of areas all set up and then had a clear piece of plastic with 1-inch squares he could lay over it. Worked like a charm.
6) Use spell templates for areas.
7) Every player at my table has a list of what they can do in a round. It's a simple one-page sheet that has basic information on which actions are available, what triggers AoO, basic circumstantial bonuses (higher ground, flanking, prone, etc).
8) Casters should have the ranges, DCs, and durations already calculated. Most spells conform to specific formulas so they can simply have it listed at the top of the spell page: Close = X feet, Medium = Y feet, Long = Z feet, etc.
9) You should have basic tactics already figured out for the enemies. You may need to write them down ahead of time, but you should already know how a particular encounter is going to be played out to a point. You should never go in blind as a GM.
10) Don't use unnecessary rules. If the bad guy drops and there isn't a way for him to be healed or someone isn't going to death knell him, then don't worry about negative hit points. Just let him die. If you need to know later (the party heals him for some reason), then determine if he is still alive.
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Use something like this "cheat sheet" for combat: Troll in the Corner's Guide to the Pathfinder Combat Round (it's a free download) http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=85969
Also, I'm fond of Perram's Spellbook for making easy cards http://thegm.org/perramsSpellbook.php
or using something like the adVance Spell Sheet if you want all your spells on just one or two pages: http://sourceforge.net/projects/scoreforge/files/sCoreForge%20Spell%20Sheet /
Having your actions and spells easy to reference makes the combat much faster. If I had an easy reference for the conditions, I'd drop you a link for that, too!
I use many sets of dice and roll all of my attacks and damage together at the same time. Matching the d20s in color with the damage dice. I do this when I'm the GM and when I'm the player. If I have many creatures (like when I summon monsters as a player) I will start rolling out the obvious attacks while the player before me in the order works out his turn. I note the AC I hit if we haven't figured it out, and total all the damage against the opponents. I save my character's action for "my" turn and resolve it with the GM's full attention, then move all the summoned monsters on the map and give the AC and totals.
We also are in the habit of announcing our "move" and "standard" actions ((I move 1, 2... 6, and I use my longsword for my standard melee attack)) or our "5'" and "full round" actions (("5 foot step here, and full round attack with the claws and bite)). Because we all say this out loud, new players catch on quickly to the pattern and there is a little less confusion overall.
Mostly, speeding up combat is a matter of listening to the player's intent and asking for a roll with a DC/AC/CMD in mind. If you can count moves quickly, you can point to the end point options on the map and that sometimes helps, too. Comes down to practice, practice, practice.
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I was thinking it might be fun to have a few sessions where you have a timer out and tie in-game events to real time. In a castle, more guards show up every ten minutes of real time, or in an outdoor fight in a thuderstorm you can have a random creature get struck by lightning every five minutes.
This isn't just a gimmick to make players faster, it can significantly ramp up the urgency and tension of a situation. Players go from having the leisure to plan to feeling the pressure of time. You won't have to force the issue on time because other players will be hurrying them.
Nice links, I think they will be very helpful to help the players of my group that aren't rules or spells specialists.
This alone should seriously speed up things. I'll try the other advices too, above all the time limits/flexibility in taking turns
I was thinking it might be fun to have a few sessions where you have a timer out and tie in-game events to real time. In a castle, more guards show up every ten minutes of real time, or in an outdoor fight in a thuderstorm you can have a random creature get struck by lightning every five minutes.
This isn't just a gimmick to make players faster, it can significantly ramp up the urgency and tension of a situation. Players go from having the leisure to plan to feeling the pressure of time. You won't have to force the issue on time because other players will be hurrying them.
I like these ideas!
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I'll admit I have not read the majority of the thread. I'm sure the usual use index cards, roll all dice at same time, save rules discussions for later.
I think the single biggest thing is to REALLY REALLY REALLY know the combat rules in and out. 1 person, unfortunately, usually the GM, must know the combat rules in and out. A person who from memory knows how every action works, how different attack options falls into what action, etc.
If people can't memorize, or nobody cares enough...print out the pages of Combat Maneuvers, print out actions that can be taken, print out often used spells, print out conditions list, print out all the attack options and routines for each character (like Power Attack with 2H with buckler, without buckler, with Furious Focus, etc), how movement works, how AOOs work, and numerous other things that get used a lot.
It's a game, but for everybody to have a better gaming experience, everybody has to make an effort and do their part. That's why people enjoy video games and MMOs, because they don't have to learn all the little things, the game does it for them.