The problem isn't the skill, the problem is the d20. Thief skills in OD&D were percentile based so there was a curve; the d20 is just too fickle with it's 5% chance of any number on the d20, it lacks a true average.
Incorrectly reading my post. I didn't say incorrectly playing the game. I was asking because you seem to misunderstand my last post, you might be misunderstanding my point or more. I'm also playing devil's advocate, because I am sure one of your players will have these same arguments.
I am all for improvements and additions to the game. I'm not for alterations of the fundamentals of the game, which perception is a part. Consider that in the Beatiaries, only one skill is mentioned twice in each listing. Perception is mentioned under Senses and on the skill list of each monster. It's mentioned twice because it is so critical. Making a change to a game fundamental changes the whole game in ways that may seem invisible, but is connected to many facets of the game.
Skill tax is small, feat tax is huge, so making it a feat is even less effective. Making it a 4th saving throw adds so many ramifications, I don't see it as a practical choice.
I'm a published designer, with Paizo credits - I'm not some yahoo. I'm just trying to help you see the ramifications of altering perception, which are huge. It's no small thing you are considering.
Oh great, powerful, and wise designer with Paizo credits. Outside of stealth (and anything else I may have covered), what ramifications am I missing?
Whatever, just trying to help, but you obviously don't need help, so I'll leave your thread alone.
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Perception is too broad IMHO. The ability to see and detect a trap is different than the ability to notice an enemy. Detecting traps require careful movement and can improve with the experiences of someone trained in this area. This is why it should mainly be a Rogue based ability. Spotting an enemy requires a more wide range use of the senses, and the Wisdom score may be used here. Rangers could have this as a class ability.
How about a game mechanic where you don't even roll a die. As an example Detect Traps would be a flat Dexterity check. Rogues could add a point for every level as a class benefit. An 8th level Rogue with an 18 Dexterity automatically sees traps with a detect score of 26 or lower. A fighter with a 10 Dex would hit a trap with a detect score of 11 or higher. A Detect Trap feat would give the Rogue a +4 or a score or a 30 in the example above. No luck would be involved. It would be based on the natural ability of the character, their experience, and possibly pumped by additional training.
An 8th Level Ranger with 16 Wisdom score would have a 24 Spot Enemy ability.
Just throwing out some thoughts....
Later,
Mazra
If Perception can only be increased by feats and the like, how does a character who wants to be good at spotting ambushes and the like beat someone who can increase his Stealth bonus once every level on top of feats and the like?
Rangers who get favored enemies and favored terrain get bonuses would be good at spotting ambushes.
Anyway, this is part of the reasons I was considering a non skillpoint progression to stealth as well (similar to BAB) so that it wouldn't get too ridiculous (with feats giving +3,+2 and later +6,+4) in comparison to limited perception, while still progressing nicely.
I realize I've probably had much different gaming experiences from most of the people in this forum, but for me as a GM, perception being random has led to situations where I have regretted even asking the players to roll. As a player, I've had situations where taking 10 wasn't enough or wasn't allowed, I've had times when DMs would tell me, "Too bad you missed the DC by 1". I don't mind the d20 system in general, but perception is just something that's always irked me.
Are you talking about finding things like plot devices? If so, I'm going to blow your mind (from the GM perspective):
Don't have your players roll Perception, just give them the information needed to advance the plot.
I recommend finding a copy of Trail of Cthulhu, using the Gumshoe system. It's a detective game and they use this concept. The important, plot advancing item is always found. The players can roll to see if they notice other advantageous clues, but the main clue (which provides no bonus) is always found.
I wasn't talking about plot devices those are given, I was talking about hidden extras such as an expanded part of the dungeon. Hidden areas that were supposed to be there to reward perceptive characters.
The game is at least half-stacked against stealth. Alarm has no easy way of being bypassed by a Rogue not using counter-magic, for example.
Your old example might be giving you a hint as to why Stealth doesn't feel very powerful to you.
Level 10 rogue? At this level a rogue should be able to slip in and out of museums replacing various valuables with frauds. Guards can aid another to keep watch. So let's assume I have a group of six guards, one of them is perhaps an extremely vigilant elf who happens to be trained in perception. That's 10 (base)+4 (18 Wisdom) +2 (Elf) +4 (Feat) +6 (On duty, so he's keeping an eye out for any intruders) +10 (5 other guards aiding him) = 36. Those who've dealt with sneaky types should remember that stealth requires concealment or cover so it's not like the rogue is walking in light either, and with an elf even low-light is not enough, this rogue needs to run in the dark or behind some cover. With such serious investment into Stealth (Two feats and 10 skill points), I don't see why it would be such a problem to let the rogue slip past a simple but effective group of the guards on a decent roll.
The vigilant elf has an 18 in Wisdom. This is either a huge point-buy (I use one, but I thought I was bizarre), or the Elf is actually some sort of divine caster moonlighting as a guard. I'm guessing the 10 base is the ranks involved, since the feat bonus appears to be a +2/+2 feat that doubled. The +6 isn't well described, but I'll assume that it's +3 from a class skill bonus and +3 from... maybe +2 for favorable conditions (clean area) and a +1 trait bonus or something. While Aid Another is probably the best way to handle multiple people in the same party on the lookout for things, 6 guards in a whole museum might make better sense as, say, two groups of 3 guard patrols, with the vigilant elf being in the second (harder) group.
When I mentioned altering the play-style to help lessen the problem, this is the kind of thing I was talking about. This NPC isn't an "even challenge," they are stacked for defeating the PC. One, lone level 10 PC isn't a match for a level 10 NPC with 5 backup minions of any sort. The 18 in Wisdom is suspect too, since a score that high isn't just "coincidence" nor does it make sense for a guard to be staking that many points in- they should expect to need Strength, Dex and Con as well, since you aren't much of a guard if you aren't capable of repelling intruders you spot. Stacking on all of the guards into a single roll is sometimes easier than making several rolls, but in this case, it's been made to front-load the big roll into a big problem. One per patrol group (whose members Aid Another), and only as many patrol groups as the Stealth Expert has to actually bypass makes more sense. It can also contribute to the Stealth Expert feeling like a ghost if he scopes out his mark and plans the most optimal route- or conversely, indulges his character traits and deliberately taunts his victims.
For directly addressing some of your concerns, Porpetine's supposed changes include not having to use Cover or Concealment alone for Stealth- you can sneak up on someone who isn't paying good attention without cover. Instead of being fully perceived by a single Perception check, the DC for detection is graduated, so that if they score well, you might be pinpointed- other times, they can tell something is there, but not what or where, or perhaps they can sense your direction.
Explanation here: Stealth... What Needs To Be Done
Mechanics here: Hide and Seek
(And on a side note, I like Percpetion on more than just Ranger and Rogue- monster-hunting Inquisitors, bounty-hunting/body-guarding Fighters and assassin-chasing Paladins love it too for their concepts)
Thank you Parka, I shall be checking out these links from Porpentine.
Also I thank you for dealing with my bullheadedness and pointing out the flaws in my logic rather than just naysaying. Hopefully I can work up something that I can be happy implementing.
I really want to make the system so that it's difficult for level 1 characters to nab from even an inattentive slob; 10th level, the stealthy are able to sneak past groups of trained guards without major issues, and by 20th level be able to sneak into a throne room with the prince.
In my experience as both GM and player, stealth is too easy in the low levels and too hard at later levels. That is why I was going for a steady perception that doesn't fly all over the place.
I wonder, if I just go with higher base line (20 instead of 10) if that would better suit my expectations.
I was considering this for a feat:
Hunter's Awareness - Prerequisite: Wisdom 13 - This character adds half of his or her character level to perception in noticing a stealthed creature.
Let us look at who has good perception (based on profession) and why.
Rangers - To hunt their prey / bounties. With their favored enemies / favored terrain, their perception jumps up based on what they're looking for and where.
Rogues - To find traps. They have trap finding, so their ability to notice traps is unrivaled.
Notice how their ability to find things increases with level even when I make perception stable. With everyone else, they need feats and/or magic. Rogues and Rangers can get those too making their perception even higher.
I think it's fair as wizards don't need to get +5 full plate and a magic shield (and that would be worse for them anyway).
I really feel I should make another feat accessible at a higher level to improve perception even further though.
The feats are for fighters who want to be body guards.
Actually their perception only gets better in a specialized area such as finding traps. It is not the same as getting better across the board.
I wasn't talking about plot devices those are given, I was talking about hidden extras such as an expanded part of the dungeon. Hidden areas that were supposed to be there to reward perceptive characters.
So, are you suggesting that there's a feat who's special benefit is:
Find the extra areas of the dungeon.
??
I go back to my earlier statement. If I'm the GM and I design something cool (part of a dungeon) I'm not going to leave it up to the dice to decide if the players have access to it or not. They will find the entrance and then they get to decide if they are interested.
Instead, the Perception check is now going to reveal information about what might be beyond the entrance. If a player succeeds, they know something that will give them an advantage, perhaps give them a chance at a surprise round on the next encounter, or a way to avoid an encounter and still get at the treasure.
Coincidentally, I have the same philosophy to locked doors. The door still has a DC to open it, but if it's important to get past the door for the plot, the door will always be opened. A failure on the check results in consequences, perhaps guards hearing the commotion and raising the alarm, or the macguffin device being gone (with clues to who took it).
I wasn't talking about plot devices those are given, I was talking about hidden extras such as an expanded part of the dungeon. Hidden areas that were supposed to be there to reward perceptive characters.So, are you suggesting that there's a feat who's special benefit is:
Find the extra areas of the dungeon.
...
Instead, the Perception check is now going to reveal information about what might be beyond the entrance. If a player succeeds, they know something that will give them an advantage, perhaps give them a chance at a surprise round on the next encounter, or a way to avoid an encounter and still get at the treasure.
I think that's actually what he was trying to go for in fewer words. Things like unnecessary but useful secret doors in a dungeon that make exploration less dangerous, possibly giving safe access to a few trap mechanisms. Noticing some choice books on a bedroom shelf that give an equipment bonus to not-necessary-but-beneficial Knowledge checks that help a later encounter along. Noticing a ring/amulet/subtle hand gesture that means an NPC is a member of a secret organization that the PCs might have ties to, and can therefore call upon extra favors with.
Basically, "hidden areas" of the game that never make things unnecessarily hard or impossible for having been missed. If you use the "Three Clue" rule, perhaps clues 4 and 5 are "hidden" and make later events easier. That kind of thing.
You can do this sort of thing with Perception already, though it's also good to spread the love around to alternate skills too with adjusted DCs (Sense Motive on the NPC, Knowledge for the books, etc).
Gar, I think I'm going to hold off on Perception for a while. I have to many issues with Stealth that I need to work out first, but once I do I think I'll figure out what I do with Perception. I might make Perception a saving throw in the end.