Hide and Seek: A rewrite of Stealth and all that touches it

The aim of this thread : to address underlying issues with Stealth and the rules surrounding it, and to do so efficiently, adding minimal overall text to that printed in the core rulebook.

The existing problems : a lack of clarity in many areas relating to Stealth. Contradictions in several areas. A body of rules which has been written over many editions and spread out over many chapters, with dusty cogs here and there that no longer mesh with the whole.

A summary of the changes herein : These changes correct confusions, simplify overcomplications, and clarify the relationships between Perception and Stealth, Stealth and invisibility, concealment and cover, light and darkness, light and low-light vision, darkness and blindness, the invisibility special ability and the invisibility condition, Stealth and Bluff, hide in plain sight and darkvision, and a number of spells, items and special abilities as they relate to any and all of the above.

Major changes : Invisibility applicability. Invisibility detection DCs. Lighting rules. Cover effects. Skill uses.

Smaller changes : Hide in plain sight rules. Scent rules. Low-light vision rules. Tower shield rules. Sleep effects. Some spells.

What these changes do : They make Stealth slightly more powerful when it is used intelligently, though the limitations of Stealth are clarified. They make invisibility less powerful, though invisibility pinpoint DCs remain ‘practically impossible’ for those with normal senses at most levels. The DCs for detecting non-stealthy, stealthy and invisible presences rise and combine along a more proportionate scale, rather than fluctuating wildly depending on the presence or absence of magical invisibility.

Darkness is more potent with these changes, and darkvision thus more desirable. Total cover is more significant. The hide in plain sight abilities of the assassin, ranger and shadowdancer are variegated in flavour and effect, and balanced for their levels. Tower shields are more potent, and remain more attractive even with rebalancing, thus giving a minor boost to the fighter.

Unresolved Problems : In sim-terms, these changes do not fully reconcile the odd differences in detecting invisible and stealthy presences. To reconcile these differences would require graduated DCs to be removed for invisibility, or similar graduations to be applied to opposed Perception-Stealth DCs. The former would do no good to invisibility (which benefits from graduated DCs), while the latter would create a game-wide imbalance between Perception and Stealth (since graduated DCs would favour one or the other). I have expanded the reach of the invisibility detection rules, but it seems to me that this is ultimately a point at which verisimilitude needs must give way to gamism, so I have left the two systems of detection broadly as they are.

Order of Play : I’ll post the rewrites in order of importance, like so:

(1) Perception and Stealth (and Bluff, to keep the skills together);
(2) Invisibility (Special Ability) and Invisibility (Condition);
(3) Concealment and Cover, and Darkness and Light
(4) Other racial abilities, class abilities, spells, conditions, and items

Sample Perception DCs, with by-the-book comparisons, all at 30’ unless specified

(AKA, This Is Why Bother)

1) Perception DC to pinpoint an immobile, invisible 3rd level wizard casting a 1-round spell (Summon Monster):

DC here: 15. DC RAW: 43 with errata, minus 17 without

2) DC to pinpoint the same wizard if he keeps quiet (Stealth+5)

DC here: 30+d20 DC RAW: 87+d20 with errata, 68+d20 without

3) DC for a sleeping commoner farmer to sense a 5th level rogue (Stealth+12), tiptoeing across open ground at half speed to steal the farmer’s chickens:

DC here: 32+d20 DC RAW: 13 (fully perceive)

4) DC for an alert watchman to pinpoint the same rogue, immobile and invisible:

DC here: 37+d20. DC RAW: 95+d20 with errata, 75+d20 without

5) DC for the watchman to pinpoint the invisible rogue as he moves stealthily at half speed:

DC here: as (3) DC RAW: either 70+d20 or 75+d20 (unclear)

6) DC for the watchman to merely sense the same rogue doing the same thing:

DC here: 22+d20 DC RAW: either 50+d20 or 55+20 (unclear)

7) DC to perceive a creature with Stealth+5 hiding motionless in dim light:

DC here: 10+d20 DC RAW: 8+d20

8) DC to sense the same creature hiding motionless behind a closed door (and so invisible):

DC here: 30+d20 DC RAW: 13+d20 (to perceive fully)

9) DC to perceive the same creature doing the same thing behind an arrowslit:

DC here: 20+d20 DC RAW: 23+d20

PART I: Bluff, Perception & Stealth

* p90, Bluff:
(insert the following before the Feint section: )

Distraction : You can use the Bluff skill to create a momentary diversion. Your distraction can be visual, auditory, tactile or even olfactory. If you succeed, your target is distracted until the end of the round, and finds Perception checks more difficult (see Perception). You can attempt to distract more than one target, but each target beyond the first imposes a -5 penalty on your opposed Bluff check.

(insert the following in the Action section after the feint action description: )

Creating a distraction is a standard action.

* p102, Perception:
(replace Check section text with the following: )

Check : When you succeed on a Perception check, you accurately perceive some detail or presence that might otherwise have escaped your attention. Failing a Perception check may cause you to miss tiny clues, buried treasure, hidden foes or other dangers.
You don’t need to make a Perception check to perceive something within 30’ that is clearly visible, audible or otherwise discernible. Such discernibility can be limited by many things, including fineness of scale, distance, light intensity, impaired senses, and - perhaps most crucially - by a foe who tries to use Stealth against you.
To perceive an environmental detail that is not immediately discernible, you make a Perception check against a set DC. Guidelines for such DCs are given on the tables below. To perceive a creature that is attempting to use Stealth against you, you make an opposed skill check. The same modifiers apply to both set DCs and opposed checks.
Typically you oppose a creature’s Stealth check with multiple senses, but the most important of these is sight. If your view of a creature is obstructed by any degree of concealment or cover, it may attempt a Stealth check against you. If your view of a creature is completely obstructed - by total concealment or cover, or by magic - it is invisible. To accurately perceive an invisible creature, you must win a Perception check against the sense, direction and pinpoint DCs given for invisibility (see Appendix 1), to which a Stealth check may be added. The invisibility rules supersede those for normal Perception-versus-Stealth checks.
If a target is using Stealth while benefitting from mundane invisibility, and loses the total concealment or cover that grants it that invisibility relative to you, you can make a reactive Perception-versus-Stealth check against it. You accurately visually perceive the target if you win this check.
Some creatures have heightened senses, such as scent, which aid them in perceiving invisible and stealthy foes. See the relevant entries for these heightened senses (in Appendix 1) for details of how they work with Perception.

(replace Perception Modifiers table with the following: )

Perceptor is... Perception DC Modifier
Distant from thing perceived +1/10’ beyond 30’
Distracted +5
Asleep +10 (1)
Favourable/ unfavourable conditions -2/+2
Excellent/terrible conditions -5/+5
(1): a sleeping creature is also blinded (see Appendix 2)

* p106, Stealth:
(replace in its entirety with the following, including table: )

You are skilled at avoiding detection, allowing you to silently hide, slip past foes or strike from an unseen position.
Check : Your Stealth check is opposed by the Perception of anyone who might notice you. When you use Stealth successfully, you are completely imperceptible to potential perceptors. You can move at half speed while staying hidden without a Stealth penalty.
If a creature is perceiving you clearly using any of its senses, you can’t initiate or maintain Stealth against it. The most important of these senses is usually sight: thus, it is normally impossible to initiate or maintain Stealth while a perceptor has an unobstructed view of you. In addition, if a creature can hear you, it’s impossible to use Stealth against that creature while speaking in a normal or strong voice, such as that necessary for most spellcasting (see Chapter 9). If a creature has the scent special ability, it’s impossible to use Stealth against that creature while within range of its scent. You cannot use Stealth if you are carrying a source of visible light, or if an overpowering odour is emanating from you. It’s difficult to use Stealth in an area of bright light (see Chapter 7). It’s impossible to use Stealth while running, attacking or charging.
Against most creatures, quietly finding any degree of concealment or cover allows you to attempt Stealth, and keeping to concealment or cover allows you to attempt to maintain Stealth. You can try to skulk between areas of concealment or cover across open ground, or to snipe (make ranged attacks while maintaining Stealth), though such actions are exceptional and difficult. If you have time to prepare, an ambush can increase your chances of being stealthy, as detailed below. You can use Bluff to try and distract a perceptor, as detailed by the Bluff skill.
Total concealment or cover render you invisible, as do certain spells and abilities. If you are invisible, a perceptor must win a Perception check against the sense, direction and pinpoint DCs given for invisibility (see Appendix 1), to which a Stealth check may be added. The invisibility rules supersede those for normal Perception-versus-Stealth checks.
If you’re using Stealth while benefitting from mundane invisibility, and lose the total concealment or cover that grants you that invisibility relative to a perceptor, that perceptor can make a reactive Perception-versus-Stealth check against you. You are accurately visually perceived if you fail this check.
Some creatures have heightened senses, such as scent, which aid them in perceiving invisible and stealthy foes. See the relevant entries for these heightened senses (in Appendix 1) for details of how they work with Stealth.
A creature larger or smaller than Medium takes a size penalty or bonus on Stealth checks: Fine+16, Diminuative+12, Tiny+8, Small+4, Large-4, Huge-8, Gargantuan-12, Colossal-16.

Stealth user is... Stealth Check Modifier
Behind improved or total cover +10
Ambushing +5
Not moving +5
Moving at full speed -5
Whispering -5

Ambushing : An ambush masks visual, auditory and even olfactory clues to an ambusher’s position. Setting up an ambush takes time. The ambush site requires some degree of concealment or cover relative to at least one general direction (quadrant), and the position of each ambusher must be prepared by a creature of greater than animal intelligence with at least one rank in Stealth. Normally it takes 10 minutes of work to prepare one ambusher relative to one general direction. If some degree of concealment or cover is not already present at the ambush site, it normally takes 30 minutes of work to create the lowest degree of either concealment or cover in a 10’ square relative to one general direction. Most terrains provide materials that can be used to set up an ambush (foliage, rocks and the like). In a terrain where such materials are plentiful, all preparation times are halved. If the terrain is unusually barren, all preparation times are doubled. An ambusher loses its ambush bonus to Stealth as soon as it moves from its prepared position.
Skulking : If you’ve already successfully used Stealth at least 10’ from any potential perceptor, you can attempt to move to a second hiding place across open ground, even if you would normally be clearly perceived in doing so. You must begin and end your movement in an area where you are able to use Stealth (for example, by virtue of cover or concealment), and must complete your movement and attempt to hide again in the same round. You are constrained by the rules of Stealth for the full round. In a round when you are skulking, all Stealth checks you attempt suffer a -20 penalty.
Sniping : (text as is)
Creating a Diversion to Hide : (cut heading and all text and reference)
Action : (text as is).
Special : If you are invisible, it is much easier to be stealthy. See Invisibility (Appendix 1) for details.
If you have the Stealthy feat, you gain a bonus on Stealth checks (see Chapter 5).

PART II: Invisibility (Special Ability & Condition)

* p563-564, Invisibility:
(replace in its entirety with the following, including table: )

When a creature or object has total concealment or opaque total cover, or when an ability, effect or spell renders it visually imperceptible, it is invisible.
It is difficult to pinpoint the position of an invisible presence, and such a presence may remain entirely unnoticed, as detailed below. Even once its square has been pinpointed, an invisible presence cannot be personally targetted by spells or effects and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Attacks against an invisible presence suffer a 50% miss chance, and an invisible presence that has total cover cannot be attacked at all. An invisible presence is immune to precision damage, such as that inflicted by a rogue’s sneak attacks. An invisible presence cannot use gaze attacks. Against foes who can’t see it, an invisible presence gains +2 on attack rolls and ignores Dexterity bonusses to AC, though attacking nullifies several types of invisibility.
Invisibility is not foolproof. Most types of invisibility do nothing to block other senses, mundane or otherwise. An incautious invisible presence may be heard, smelled, or felt, leaves tracks, and displaces fluids and gasses. Creatures with advanced senses, like scent, can partially or completely ignore many forms of invisibility, as detailed below.
There are three types of invisibility: mundane invisibility, which relies on total concealment or opaque total cover; magical invisibility, such as that provided by the Invisibility spell; and planar invisibility, such as that possessed by ethereal creatures.
Mundane invisibility only exists for a perceptor so long as a presence has total concealment or opaque total cover relative to it: in the case of cover, such mundane invisibility is often mutual. Should a perceptor or invisible presence reduce the relative mundane concealment or cover to less than total (by opening a door, for example, or lighting a torch), mundane invisibility is immediately negated, though a creature might still be capable of using Stealth if some concealment or cover remains. Creatures and objects in darkness, for example, gain mundane invisibility relative to those lacking darkvision or blindsight, but only so long as the light intensity in the area does not rise. Mundane invisibility conferred by opaque total cover prevents all direct attacks and is difficult to ignore even with advanced senses, as detailed below. Mundane invisibility is not affected by magical countermeasures (such as See Invisibility ), unless such measures reduce or remove the cover or concealment that prevent visible perception in the first place.
Magical invisibility relies on neither mundane cover nor concealment, but lasts only as long as the magic that powers it. Magical invisibility is affected by magical countermeasures (such as See Invisibility ).
Planar invisibility is possessed by all ethereal creatures and some incorporeal creatures: it can also be granted by some spells and effects which endow creatures with ethereality or incorporeality. In general, mundane Perception is no use in sensing or pinpointing ethereal or incorporeal invisible presences, though some incorporeal creatures can be audibly perceived. Planar invisibility is difficult to ignore even with advanced senses, as detailed below. Planar invisibility is affected by magical countermeasures (such as See Invisibility ).
With the exception of planar invisibility, all types of invisibility can be partially or completely negated by keen perception, or by incautious activity on the part of the invisible presence.
Perception of an active invisible presence is graduated: first, it can be sensed to be somewhere in the immediate vicinity; second, its direction (current quadrant) can be gauged; third, its current square can be pinpointed. It is practically impossible to pinpoint a stealthy invisible presence’s square with normal senses, and until its square is pinpointed, no invisible presence can be directly attacked. Furthermore, an invisible presence that has been pinpointed retains the invisible condition (50% miss chance and so forth), unless the circumstances or magics that allow invisibility have been removed or dispelled.
To detect an invisible presence, a perceptor makes a Perception check. This is measured against the sense DC, the direction DC and the pinpoint DC simultaneously. Any perceptor within 30’ of an active invisible presence can make a reactive Perception check each round against these invisibility DCs. Intentionally trying to perceive an invisible presence is a move action.
The base Perception DC to sense an invisible presence within 30’ is 10, the base Perception DC to gauge the quadrant direction of an invisible presence within 30’ is 15, and the base DC to pinpoint the square of an invisible presence within 30’ is 20. If the invisible presence is using Stealth to mask other sensory clues, its Stealth check is added to the base DCs. The following modifications also apply. These DCs and modifications incorporate, and do not stack with, those given by the Perception and Stealth skills.

Invisible Creature is... Perception DC
Some distance away +1/10’ beyond 30’
Behind improved or total cover +10
Ambushing +5
Not moving +5
Excellently/terribly situated +5/-5
Favourably/ unfavourably situated +2/-2
Moving at half speed no modifier
Moving at full speed -5
Whispering -5
Overpoweringly smelly -10 (1)
Charging or running -10 (1)
In combat or speaking -10 (1)
Carrying a source of visible light -20 (1)
(1): Prohibits Stealth

Perceptor is... Perception DC
Distracted +5
Asleep +10 (1)
(1): a sleeping creature is also blinded (see Appendix 2)

If an invisible creature attacks another creature, the attacked creature immediately pinpoints the invisible creature’s current location, unless the invisible creature has a reach greater than 5’: in this case, the attacked creature only has a general idea of its assailant’s current position. Several forms of invisibility are negated by initiating an attack, such as those conferred by total cover and the Invisibility spell.
If a creature wishes to attack an invisible presence it has sensed, but has not pinpointed, it has two options. First, a creature can make a touch attack with hands or a weapon into two adjacent squares as a standard action. If the invisible presence is in one of those squares, it may be struck, though the 50% miss chance applies. This ‘attack’ deals no damage, but pinpoints the current position of the invisible presence. Second, a perceptor can attack into a square at random. If an invisible presence is there, the attack is conducted normally (miss chance applies). If there is no invisible presence in the square, the attack is also conducted normally: the GM knows such an attack cannot hit, but the player should not.
An invisible presence leaves tracks as normal. In some terrains (mud or sand, for example), tracks constitute unfavourable or terrible circumstances for an invisible presence. An invisible creature displaces fluids and gasses. In some environments (aquatic, for example), such displacement allows automatic pinpointing of an invisible presence, though such a presence retains the invisible condition.
Some special abilities and spells partially or totally negate invisibility, as follows:
Darkvision : A creature with darkvision ignores mundane invisibility provided by darkness within range, but gains no benefit against other types of invisibility.
Blind-Fight : A creature with Blind-Fight has a better chance to hit an invisible presence it has pinpointed: it rolls to ignore the 50% miss chance twice, discarding the lower roll. In addition, an invisible presence gains no combat advantages when executing melee attacks against a target with Blind-Fight. Blind-Fight has no effect on planar invisibility.
Scent : A creature with scent senses an invisible presence within range automatically. As a move action such a perceptor can also determine the general direction of the invisible presence. It can move directly towards an invisible presence at half speed, and, if it comes within 5’ of an invisible presence, pinpoints it automatically. The invisible condition still applies unless the circumstances or magics that allow invisibility have been removed or dispelled. Scent has no effect on planar invisibility and is blocked by total cover, though such cover does not prevent tracking of a scent trail.
Blindsense : A creature with blindsense senses and pinpoints an invisible presence within range automatically. The invisibility condition still applies unless the circumstances or magics that allow invisibility have been removed or dispelled. Blindsense has no effect on planar invisibility and is blocked by total cover.
Tremorsense : A creature with tremorsense senses and pinpoints an earthbound invisible presence within range automatically. The invisibility condition still applies unless the circumstances or magics that allow invisibility have been removed or dispelled. Tremorsense has no effect on planar invisibility.
Blindsight : A creature with blindsight ignores most types of invisibility within range. It has no effect on planar invisibility and is blocked by total cover.
See Invisibility & True Seeing : These spells see through magical and planar invisibility within range for a single perceptor. They have no effect on mundane invisibility.
Some special abilities and spells enhance invisibility, as follows:
Ventriloquism : A perceptor can sense a ventriloquising invisible presence as normal using vocal clues, but cannot use speech to pinpoint its direction or position: thus, the invisibility sense DC is modified as normal for whispering or speaking, but no such modifiers apply to the invisibility direction or pinpoint DCs. Using this spell, an invisible creature may speak in a normal or strong voice while adding Stealth to the invisibility direction and pinpoint DCs if it endeavours to be stealthy in other regards.

* p567, Invisible:
(replace in entirety with the following: )

Creatures and objects are invisible when they are visually imperceptible. It is difficult to pinpoint the position of an invisible presence. Even once its square has been pinpointed, an invisible presence cannot be personally targetted by spells or effects and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Attacks against an invisible presence suffer a 50% miss chance, and an invisible presence that has total cover cannot be attacked at all. An invisible presence is immune to precision damage, such as that inflicted by a rogue’s sneak attacks. An invisible presence cannot use gaze attacks. Against foes who can’t see it, an invisible presence gains +2 on attack rolls and ignores Dexterity bonusses to AC. See invisibility (Appendix 1, Special Abilities) for details.

Now all we need is a time machine so that you can explain this to Jason Buhlmann three years ago. :)

Nicely done. I think your "Why we bother" could use a bit more explanation for those of us who haven't followed every thread on this topic.

Question:

If I've got a wizard with active Ventriloquism cast (prior to being detected), and I cast spells from stealth/concealment, can the Ventriloquism aid my stealth check if I have the voice come from behind the person I'm casting that fireball spell at (and thus making them turn their eyes away from me)?

PART III: Cover & Concealment, Light & Darkness

* p195 to p196, Cover:
(replace all text with the following: )

There are two basic types of cover (hard and soft) and four degrees of cover (partial, normal, improved and total). In addition, all types and degrees of cover can be transparent or opaque. Higher degrees of cover block line of effect, and thus many spells (see Chapter 9). The highest degree of cover also blocks line of sight, and so confers invisibility.
Against ranged attacks and melee attacks with reach, a target has cover if a line drawn from any corner of the attacker’s square to any corner of the target’s square passes through hard cover (such as a wall) or soft cover (such as a creature). Soft cover does not apply against melee attacks made without reach.
A creature that occupies more than one 5’ square can choose which occupied square it makes melee attacks from, and melee opponents can choose which of the creature’s squares are to be attacked. Such creatures and their adversaries can thus attack around some areas of cover.
An attacker gains no attacks of opportunity against a target that has cover of any kind relative to it.
Multiple cover conditions do not stack. In such cases, only the highest degree of cover applies.
Types of Cover : All opaque hard cover allows those who benefit from it to make Stealth checks. Higher degrees of opaque hard cover provide bonusses to Stealth. Transparent hard cover does not allow Stealth checks. All hard cover confers bonusses to AC and to Reflex saves against effects that originate from beyond the cover, with the exception of spread effects. Hard cover can be partial, normal, improved or total.
All soft cover confers bonusses to AC. Soft cover does not confer bonusses to Reflex saves. Soft cover does not allow Stealth checks. Soft cover can be partial or normal.
Degrees of Cover : A target has partial cover if it benefits from cover, but more than half the target is visible: a 5’ tall creature behind a 2’ high wall has partial cover. Partial cover only applies to creatures within 30’ of it. An attacker can ignore partial cover if he is closer to it than his target. Hard partial cover confers a cover bonus of +2 to AC and a +1 bonus to most Reflex saving throws, and may allow Stealth checks. Soft partial cover confers a +2 bonus to AC. Partial cover does not block line of effect.
A target has normal cover if it benefits from cover, but is not totally obscured: a 5’ tall creature behind a 4’ high wall has normal cover. Hard normal cover confers a cover bonus of +4 to AC and +2 to most Reflex saving throws, and may allow Stealth checks. Soft normal cover confers a +4 bonus to AC. Normal cover blocks line of effect.
A target has improved cover when shielded by an almost total hard obstruction specifically designed for the purpose, such as an arrow slit. Improved cover confers a cover bonus of +8 to AC and +4 to most Reflex saving throws. In addition, improved cover confers the benefits of improved evasion where the Reflex saving throw bonus applies. Improved cover may allow Stealth checks and, where this is so, provides a +10 bonus to Stealth. Improved cover blocks line of effect.
A target has total cover when it is completely obscured by hard cover: a 5’ tall creature behind a 5’ high wall has total cover. Direct attacks can’t be made against a target with total cover. Total cover may allow Stealth checks and, where this is so, provides a +10 bonus to Stealth. In addition, opaque total cover confers total concealment, and those who benefit from it are thus invisible (see Appendix 1). Total cover blocks line of effect.

* p196 to 197, Concealment:
(replace all text with the following: )

There are two degrees of concealment; normal and total. Concealment blocks line of sight partially or completely.
Against ranged attacks and melee attacks with reach, a target has concealment if a line drawn from any corner of the attacker’s square to any corner of the target’s square passes through a square or border that grants concealment relative to the attacker, as darkness may to an attacker who lacks darkvision.
Against melee attacks made without reach, a target has concealment if it occupies a square which is entirely covered by an effect which grants concealment.
Some spells and effects grant levels of concealment which operate regardless of intervening concealment.
Multiple concealment conditions do not stack. In such cases, only the highest degree of concealment applies.
Degrees of Concealment : A target has normal concealment when visual perception of it is impaired but not totally blocked: dim light or a single square of fog provide normal concealment, though some creatures with advanced senses (such as low-light vision) can ignore some incidences of normal concealment.
An attacker assaulting a target with normal concealment suffers a 20% miss chance. Normal concealment does not block line of sight completely, however, and so does not prevent the targetting of spells and effects.
A target has total concealment when visual perception of it is blocked completely: darkness or more than one square of fog provide total concealment, though some creatures with advanced senses (such as darkvision) can ignore some incidences of total concealment partially or completely.
A presence with total concealment relative to a perceptor is invisible to that perceptor. See invisibility (Appendix 1) for further details on this.

* p172-173, Vision and Light:
(replace all text with the following: )

Dwarves and half-orcs have darkvision, but the other races presented in Chapter 2 need light to see by. See Table 7-10 for the illumination provided by light sources. Unless otherwise noted on the table, a light source provides normal light in a primary radius, and dim light in a secondary radius which extends as far again from the source as the primary illumination.
There are five intensities of light: bright, normal, dim, darkness and supernatural darkness. Most creatures have clear visual perception in bright and normal light, hindered visual perception in dim light, and no visual perception at all in darkness or supernatural darkness. However, some creatures are naturally suited to lower light intensities, or are hindered by higher light intensities, as described below.
When lighting conditions overlap, only the highest light intensity is relevant. Light intensities do not stack. A torch lit in clouded daylight (normal light) does not increase the environment’s illumination to bright light within 20’. A torch lit in moonlight (dim light) casts normal light in its primary 20’ radius, but does not noticeably increase the environment’s dim illumination in the secondary radius. A torch lit in darkness increases the light intensity to normal in the primary 20’ radius, and dim in the secondary 20’ radius.
Spells with the light or darkness descriptors interact slightly differently from other sources of light intensity. A spell with the light descriptor can be cast to counter or dispel any spell of equal or lower level with the darkness descriptor, and vice versa. Magical light sources brought into an area of magical darkness shed light only if they are of a higher level than the spell used to create the preexisting darkness, and vice versa. Nonmagical light sources shed no light in areas of magical darkness.
Intensities of Light : Bright light conditions and sources include direct sunlight and the Daylight spell . Creatures with normal vision, low-light vision and darkvision can see clearly in bright light. Creatures with light sensitivity are dazzled in bright light. Creatures with light blindness are blinded for 1 round and dazzled thereafter in bright light. Unless it benefits from invisibility, cover or some non-light-based form of concealment (such as fog), a creature cannot use Stealth in a square illuminated by bright light.
Normal light conditions and sources include clouded daylight and the primary radii of most artificial lights, including the Light spell. All creatures see clearly in normal light, unless their sight is impaired in some other way.
Dim light conditions and sources include moonlight, bright starlight, and the secondary radii of most artificial lights, including the Light spell. The visual perception of most creatures is obscured by dim light, though creatures with darkvision see clearly within specified ranges, and those with low-light vision treat dim light as normal light (see Appendix 1). Some creatures have other advanced senses (such as blindsight) which allow them to ignore dim light partially or completely. Relative to a creature lacking low-light vision, darkvision or blindsight, creatures and objects in dim light have normal concealment (see Chapter 8).
Dark environments and sources include cloudy, moonless lights, most caverns, and the Darkness spell. The visual perception of most creatures is entirely blocked by darkness, though creatures with darkvision can see clearly in such conditions within specified ranges. Some creatures have other advanced senses (such as blindsight) which allow them to ignore darkness partially or completely. Relative to a creature lacking darkvision or blindsight, all creatures and objects in darkness are invisible (see Appendix 1).
Supernatural darkness is created by certain magics, including the Deeper Darkness spell. The visual perception of most creatures is entirely blocked by supernatural darkness, though creatures with blindsight can ‘see’ clearly within specified ranges. Relative to a creature lacking blindsight, all creatures and objects in supernatural darkness are invisible.

Table 7-10: Light Sources and Illumination

Source ********** Primary ********** Secondary
Candle********** n/a(1) ********** 5’
Daylight ********** 60’(2) ********** 60’
Lamp********** 15’ ********** 15’
Lantern, bullseye***** 60’ cone (3) ******* 60’ cone
Lantern, hooded***** 30’ ********** 30’
Sunrod********** 30’********** 60’
Torch(4)********** 20’ ********** 40’
1: a candle provides dim light intensity, but no normal light intensity
2: a Daylight spell provides bright light in its primary radius, and normal light in its secondary radius
3: a bullseye lantern provides light in a 120’ cone, of which the initial 60’ is primary and the final 60’ secondary
4: the spells Continual Flame , Dancing Lights and Light cast light as torches

* p442, Darkness:
(replace second to eleventh paragraphs with the following: )

A perceptor that cannot see a creature or object due to intervening darkness treats such creatures and objects as invisible presences (see Appendix 1). A perceptor surrounded by darkness it cannot visually penetrate is blinded (see Appendix 2). For more details on darkness and vision, see Chapter 7.

PART IV: Racial Abilities, Class Abilities, Spells, Conditions, and Items

* p22, Elf Racial Traits:
(replace Low-Light Vision text with the following: )

Elves see as well in dim light as they do in normal light. See Chapter 7.

* p23, Gnome Racial Traits:
(replace Low-Light Vision text with the following: )

Gnomes see as well in dim light as they do in normal light. See Chapter 7.

* p24, Half-Elf Racial Traits:
(replace Low-Light Vision text with the following: )

Half-elves see as well in dim light as they do in normal light. See Chapter 7.

* p67, Camouflage:
(replace ability text)

A ranger of 12th or higher level can use the Stealth skill to skulk and snipe in any of his favoured terrains at half the normal penalties (-10 rather than -20), and gains double the normal Stealth bonus when ambushing in such terrains (+10 rather than +5). See Chapter 4, Stealth, for details on ambushing, skulking and sniping.

* p67, Hide in Plain Sight:
(replace ability text)

As a swift action, a ranger of 17th level or higher can use his camouflage ability to gain normal concealment from any square of favoured terrain, regardless of the square’s actual characteristics. This concealment confers the normal 20% miss chance, and allows the ranger to use Stealth relative to any perceptor, except one with blindsight, anywhere within one of his favoured terrains. A ranger’s own visual perception is not altered by this ability. A ranger can hide in plain sight whether he uses Stealth or not: hide in plain sight is not subject to the constraints of Stealth.

* p153, Tower Shield:
(replace all text with the following: )

This wooden shield is nearly as tall as you are. By default, it provides the indicated bonus to AC. As a standard action, you can set a tower shield to provide improved cover until the beginning of your next turn. When setting a tower shield, you choose one border of your square. You gain improved cover against attacks targetting you across that border of your square, but no cover and no shield bonus against attacks targetting you across the remaining borders of your square. While setting a tower shield, you cannot move from your current square. Since your position is apparent, improved cover conferred by a tower shield does not allow Stealth checks. See Chapter 8 for more details on improved cover.
You cannot bash with a tower shield, nor can you use your shield hand for anything else. When employing a tower shield, you take a -2 penalty on attack rolls.

* p155, Candle:
(replace description with the following: )

A candle sheds dim light in a 5’ radius. It burns for 1 hour.

* p156, Lamp and Lanterns:
(replace entries with the following: )

Lamp : A lamp sheds normal light in a 15’ primary radius, and dim light in a 15’ secondary radius. A lamp burns for 6 hours on one pint of oil. You can carry a lamp in one hand.

Lantern, Bullseye : A bullseye lantern sheds a 120’ cone of light, of which the initial 60’ is normal light, and the final 60’ dim light. A lantern burns for 6 hours on one pint of oil. You can carry a lantern in one hand.

Lantern, Hooded : A hooded lantern sheds normal light in a 30’ primary radius, and dim light in a 30’ secondary radius. A lantern burns for 6 hours on one pint of oil. You can carry a lantern in one hand.

* p157, Torch:
(replace description with the following: )

A torch sheds normal light in a 20’ primary radius, and dim light in a 20’ secondary radius. It burns for 1 hour. You can carry a torch in one hand. If a torch is used in combat, treat it as a one-handed improvised weapon that deals bludgeoning damage equal to that of a gauntlet of equal size, plus 1 point of fire damage.

* p160, Sunrod:
(replace description with the following: )

This 1-foot-long, gold-tipped rod glows brightly when struck as a standard action. It sheds normal light in a 30’ primary radius, and dim light in a 30’ secondary radius. A sunrod glows for 6 hours and is spent and worthless thereafter. You can carry a sunrod in one hand.

* p263, Dancing Lights :
(alter first part of the first sentence as follows: )

Depending on the version selected, you create up to four lights that resemble torches (and cast that amount of light),

* p263-264, Darkness :
(replace text with the following: )

This spell causes an object to radiate darkness in a 20’ radius. Relative to a perceptor lacking darkvision or blindsight, all creatures and objects in darkness are invisible (see Appendix 1). Nonmagical light sources, such as torches, do not shed light in an area of magical darkness. Magical light sources brought into an area of magical darkness shed light only if they are of a higher level than the spell used to create the preexisting darkness, and vice versa. Darkness can be cast to counter or dispel any light spell of equal or lower level.
If Darkness is cast on a small object that is then placed under a lightproof covering, the spell’s effect is blocked until the covering is removed.

* p264, Daylight :
(replace description with the following: )

You cause an object to shed bright light in a 60’ primary radius and normal light in a 60’ secondary radius. Despite its name, this spell does not harm creatures that are harmed by natural daylight.
Magical light sources brought into an area of magical darkness shed light only if they are of a higher level than the spell used to create the preexisting darkness, and vice versa. Daylight can be cast to counter or dispel any darkness spell of equal or lower level.
If Daylight is cast on a small object that is then placed under a lightproof covering, the spell’s effect is blocked until the covering is removed.

* p265, Deeper Darkness :
(replace description with the following: )

This spell functions as Darkness , except that objects radiate supernatural darkness in a 60’ radius. Relative to a perceptor lacking blindsight, all creatures and objects in supernatural darkness are invisible (see Appendix 1). Nonmagical light sources, such as torches, do not shed light in an area of magical darkness. Magical light sources brought into an area of magical darkness shed light only if they are of a higher level than the spell used to create the preexisting darkness, and vice versa. Deeper Darkness can be cast to counter or dispel any light spell of equal or lower level.
If Deeper Darkness is cast on a small object that is then placed under a lightproof covering, the spell’s effect is blocked until the covering is removed.

* p302, Invisibility :
(replace third paragraph, second and third sentences of description with the following: )

If a check is required to sense or pinpoint an invisible creature, the base Perception DCs are 10 (to sense), 15 (to gauge direction), and 20 (to pinpoint), with Stealth added where appropriate (see invisibility in Appendix 1).

* p304, Light :
(replace description with the following: )

You cause an object to shed normal light in a 20’ primary radius and dim light in a 20’ secondary radius. Magical light sources brought into an area of magical darkness shed light only if they are of a higher level than the spell used to create the preexisting darkness, and vice versa. Light can be cast to counter or dispel any darkness spell of equal or lower level. If Light is cast on a small object that is then placed under a lightproof covering, the spell’s effect is blocked until the covering is removed.
You can have only one Light spell active at any one time. If you cast this spell while another casting is still in effect, the previous casting is dispelled. If you make this spell permanent (through Permanency or a similar effect), it does not count against this limit.

* p339, See Invisibility :
(alter first sentence as follows: )

You can see any objects or beings cloaked by magical or planar invisibility within your range of vision, as if they were normally visible.

* p363, True Seeing :
(alter first sentence as follows: )

...sees normally presences masked by magical or planar invisibility,

* p365, Ventriloquism :
(add after existing text)

If you use this spell while you are invisible, a perceptor may still sense you as normal using vocal clues, but cannot use your speech to gauge your direction or pinpoint your position: thus, you suffer the normal penalties to the invisibility sense DC for whispering or speaking, but no such penalties to the invisibility direction and pinpoint DCs. Using this spell, you may speak in a normal or strong voice while adding Stealth to the invisibility direction and pinpoint DCs, so long as you endeavour to be stealthy in all other relevant regards: see invisibility (Appendix 1) for more details.

* p379, Hide in Plain Sight
(replace the 8th level table reference with the following: )

Hide in Shadows

* p380, Hide in Plain Sight
(replace in its entirely with the following: )

Hide in Shadows (Su) : When using Stealth, an assassin of 8th level or higher treats dim light as darkness, and darkness as supernatural darkness for concealment purposes. Relative to a perceptor lacking darkvision or blindsight, an assassin using Stealth in dim light is invisible. Relative to a perceptor lacking blindsight, an assassin using Stealth in darkness is invisible. An assassin’s own visual perception is not altered by this ability, nor is the general visual perception of a perceptor altered in regard to anything beside the assassin. For further details on light intensities, see Chapter 7. For further details on invisibility, see Appendix 1.
An assassin only gains the benefits of this ability as long as he uses Stealth, and the ability is thus subject to all the constraints of Stealth. An assassin who fails a Stealth check while using this ability immediately loses its benefits.

* p392, Hide in Plain Sight
(replace the 1st level table reference with the following: )

Hide in Shadows.

(add the following to the 5th level table reference: )

Improved Hide in Shadows.

* p392, Hide in Plain Sight
(replace in its entirely with the following: )

Hide in Shadows (Su) : When using Stealth, a shadowdancer treats dim light as darkness, and darkness as supernatural darkness for concealment purposes. Relative to a perceptor lacking darkvision or blindsight, a shadowdancer using Stealth in dim light is invisible. Relative to a perceptor lacking blindsight, a shadowdancer using Stealth in darkness is invisible. A shadowdancer’s own visual perception is not altered by this ability, nor is the general visual perception of a perceptor altered in regard to anything beside the assassin. For further details on light intensities, see Chapter 7. For further details on invisibility, see Appendix 1.
A shadowdancer only gains the benefit of this ability as long as he uses Stealth, and the ability is thus subject to all the constraints of Stealth. A shadowdancer who fails a Stealth check while using this ability immediately loses its benefits.

(add the following after Improved Uncanny Dodge: )

Improved Hide in Shadows (Su) : When using Stealth, a shadowdancer of 5th level or higher treats normal light as dim light. Relative to a perceptor lacking low-light vision, darkvision or blindsight, a shadowdancer of these levels can thus use Stealth in normal light, and, when doing so, is concealed (though the consequent 20% miss chance is generally irrelevant). The ability otherwise functions as hide in shadows.

* p564, Low-light Vision
(replace text with the following: )

Creatures with low-light vision have eyes that are sensitive to the faintest vestiges of illumination. The visual perception of such creatures is completely unhindered by dim light conditions. Creature with low-light vision treat dim light as normal light. Relative to such perceptors, a creature in dim light does not benefit from normal concealment. A creature cannot use dim light to attempt a Stealth check against a perceptor with low-light vision.

* p564, Scent:
(replace third paragraph with the following: )

The creature senses another creature’s presence within range automatically. As a move action the perceptor can also determine the general direction of the scent. It can move towards the scent’s source square at half speed, and, if it comes within 5’ of the source square, pinpoints that square automatically. The invisibility condition still applies if the source of the scent is invisible, unless the circumstances or magics that allow invisibility have been removed or dispelled. Scent has no effect on planar invisibility and is blocked by total cover, though such cover does not prevent tracking of a scent trail.

* p565, Blinded:
(replace in entirety with the following: )

The creature cannot see. Relative to the creature, all other creatures and objects are invisible (see Appendix 1). In addition, a blind creature takes a -4 penalty on most Strength and Dexterity based checks, and must make a DC10 Acrobatics check to move faster than half speed. Creatures that fail this check fall prone. Blinded creatures can’t run or charge. Blind creatures cannot inflict precision damage (such as that dealt by sneak attack). Blind creatures cannot use gaze attacks and are immune to gaze attacks. Creatures who remain blind for a year or more grow somewhat accustomed to the condition, and no longer need to make Acrobatics checks to move at full speed.

If you're still reading after all that...thanks :)

What I'm looking for with all this:

(1) Have I missed anything? I'm aiming to cover everything related to Stealth and invisibility in the core rules. These two things sneak into odd corners of the core rules in tentacular fashion. I expect I've missed something somewhere.

and of course

(2) What do you think?

Any missed rule areas, and any opinions, much appreciated.

Thanks - and happy new year,

The Porp.

*popcorn*

Now all we need is a time machine so that you can explain this to Jason Buhlmann three years ago. :)

Nicely done. I think your "Why we bother" could use a bit more explanation for those of us who haven't followed every thread on this topic.

Question:

If I've got a wizard with active Ventriloquism cast (prior to being detected), and I cast spells from stealth/concealment, can the Ventriloquism aid my stealth check if I have the voice come from behind the person I'm casting that fireball spell at (and thus making them turn their eyes away from me)?

Well, thanks for reading. I fully expect this humungously overlong entry to vanish like proverbial lead balloon, but in the meantime I'll happily make hay.

In reply to your Q:

Like 3.5, Pathfinder has no facing. The rules above continue in that tradition. If you're a spellcaster with Invisibility and Ventriloquism up, you can add your full Stealth check (d20+whatever) to all Perception DCs to gauge your direction and square, so long as you act stealthily in other regards (no running/charging etc) but you can't add your Stealth check to the DC to sense your presence. Your voice is still audibly casting spells somewhere in close range (normally), so no one has a problem sensing that you're somewhere in the vicinity - but you've still taken a good step in stopping your foe closing with you.

*popcorn*

* skulks over to Jeremiziah and nicks a handful *

I think this is far more complex than it needs to be. I also think some of your DCs are a bit off. I would first consider breaking them down by sight and hearing since you are primarily dealing with humanoids who use those two senses most of the time.

Scent shouldn't completely negate Stealth either. It is entirely possible to sneak up on a creature with excellent scent. Scent already gives the one making the Perception check a +8 bonus if you are within range. That's pretty good and should be more than enough.

The very high majority of the Stealth/Perception problems occur because people are putting way too much thought into it and are over thinking how things work.

Take the Ventriloquism question from above:

If I've got a wizard with active Ventriloquism cast (prior to being detected), and I cast spells from stealth/concealment, can the Ventriloquism aid my stealth check if I have the voice come from behind the person I'm casting that fireball spell at (and thus making them turn their eyes away from me)?

Sure, you should get a +7 to your Stealth check. +2 for favorable conditions and +5 for the target being distracted. Quick. Simple. No need to bog the game down with of pages upon pages of Stealth/Perception rules.

I understand why you feel that changes need to be made. I also think some changes (more precisely: clarifications) are needed. I don't think it needs to be quite as extensive.

AdAstraGames wrote:

Now all we need is a time machine so that you can explain this to Jason Buhlmann three years ago. :)

Nicely done. I think your "Why we bother" could use a bit more explanation for those of us who haven't followed every thread on this topic.

Question:

If I've got a wizard with active Ventriloquism cast (prior to being detected), and I cast spells from stealth/concealment, can the Ventriloquism aid my stealth check if I have the voice come from behind the person I'm casting that fireball spell at (and thus making them turn their eyes away from me)?

Well, thanks for reading. I fully expect this humungously overlong entry to vanish like proverbial lead balloon, but in the meantime I'll happily make hay.

In reply to your Q:

Like 3.5, Pathfinder has no facing. The rules above continue in that tradition. If you're a spellcaster with Invisibility and Ventriloquism up, you can add your full Stealth check (d20+whatever) to all Perception DCs to gauge your direction and square, so long as you act stealthily in other regards (no running/charging etc) but you can't add your Stealth check to the DC to sense your presence. Your voice is still audibly casting spells somewhere in close range (normally), so no one has a problem sensing that you're somewhere in the vicinity - but you've still taken a good step in stopping your foe closing with you.

Facing is an issue with attack and defense, not a skill issue and I think this is where we run into problems. This is what I was talking about when I said that people over think things.

Yes, I have read through most of the threads. I thought the same thing then as well. There are some things that need to be cleared up that's for sure.

For the most part, this is clearer than the rules as written, and somewhat saner given the general range of die rolls and modifiers in d20 based systems. I wish you luck in finding a time machine to show this to Jason two years ago. :)

My own general guideline on Stealth:

Stealth (moving quietly/staying in shadows) is only half of the equation.

The other half is "What are you doing to make sure that the people who are potentially looking for you are paying attention to something else?"

Bob - thanks for the comments.

re complexity and length: the rules above incorporate, and are not much longer than, those printed in the core rulebook. They're also simpler.

re visual and auditory Perception...are you suggesting splitting Perception into Listen and Spot again? And therefore Stealth into Hide and Move Silently? That has merit for sure, but it's a significant retro ruling. I'm not sure it makes things simpler or less complex, either. I quite like the way Pathfinder has streamlined these four skills. I just think the implementation could have done with another look or two.

re scent: I've downgraded this. Having to move at half speed to ferret around and pinpoint an unseen presence is significant. I think that downgrading scent more substantially than this boosts invisibility rather too much...especially as I'm suggesting that condition be expanded to cover mundane situations.

re the Ventriloquism question: a bonus to Stealth is quick and simple, but doesn't apply if the invisible spellcaster isn't being stealthy. Invisibility doesn't make you that. Nor does Ventriloquism allow you to use Stealth with regards to foes sensing your presence... because you're still normally speaking in a strong voice (Chapter 9) to spellcast. The ruling for an invisible, ventriloquising spellcaster needs to apply to those who are stealthy and those who are non-stealthy.

I wish the solutions to Stealth and invisibility were quick and simple. If they were, there wouldn't be a new thread every fortnight lamenting the confusions they create.

@ AdAstra: as far as the time machine goes... I wouldn't be surprised if the Pathfinder folk got round to a proper faq at some point soon, and while I hope a second edition is still a couple of years away, a couple of years isn't forever in publishing.

What I would love to see Pathfinder do is to slay these old bugbears that have plagued the game for so long. I would be a happy customer indeed if PF solved the old rooty issues, like Stealth-invisibility-etc. I think PF has the potential to retain what is good about The Great Game, and to solve issues like this. That's my pipe dream.

@ Shem: yeah, it's a doozy. I could have added another post way up above, explaining the many issues in greater detail, but I wanted to get to the point.

The long and short is, if you haven't had a problem with Stealth or invisibility, don't worry about it. You only need to think about all this when it causes issues in your game.

Bob - thanks for the comments.

re complexity and length: the rules above incorporate, and are not much longer than, those printed in the core rulebook. They're also simpler.

re visual and auditory Perception...are you suggesting splitting Perception into Listen and Spot again? And therefore Stealth into Hide and Move Silently? That has merit for sure, but it's a significant retro ruling. I'm not sure it makes things simpler or less complex, either. I quite like the way Pathfinder has streamlined these four skills. I just think the implementation could have done with another look or two.

re scent: I've downgraded this. Having to move at half speed to ferret around and pinpoint an unseen presence is significant. I think that downgrading scent more substantially than this boosts invisibility rather too much...especially as I'm suggesting that condition be expanded to cover mundane situations.

The rules are actually already split, sort of. You get bonuses and penalties based on the sense you are using or fooling.

re the Ventriloquism question: a bonus to Stealth is quick and simple, but doesn't apply if the invisible spellcaster isn't being stealthy. Invisibility doesn't make you that. Nor does Ventriloquism allow you to use Stealth with regards to foes sensing your presence... because you're still normally speaking in a strong voice (Chapter 9) to spellcast. The ruling for an invisible, ventriloquising spellcaster needs to apply to those who are stealthy and those who are non-stealthy.

I think we're going to disagree with this but I don't want to derail your thread with a debate on how I or you would rule in this situation and why.

I wish the solutions to Stealth and invisibility were quick and simple. If they were, there wouldn't be a new thread every fortnight lamenting the confusions they create.

Many of the problems are just people getting too stuck on the exact terminology and apply things to specifically. There are some things that pop up, like the ventriloquism trick above, that needs a bit more from the GM and the game can certainly benefit from examples on how to deal with those situations.

Thanks, Bob, and for not sidelining the main thrust of the thread. Ventriloquism is just one of so many things that need another think in Stealth/invisibility terms, and it's a pretty minor thing at that.

In terms of invisibility, though...have you noticed that the printed modifier to the Perception DC is minus 40 for not moving? And that the invisible presence is also gaining +40 Stealth if Stealth is possible? Also, that it's not at all clear (for a player entering a game) when Stealth can be used in such a situation, and when not?

So Ventriloquism aside, the Perception DC to pinpoint the invisible spellcaster in the example in post 2 (1 round summoning spell) is

base 40

minus 40 (because he isn't moving)

minus 20 (because he's speaking in a strong voice)

plus 3 (because in the example, he's 30' away)

for a total Perception DC of minus 17

That's a DC zero pinpoint if the caster is 200' away. A wee bit low.

The Pathfinder people have tried to errata this. Apparently the errata appears in the fourth printing of the core rulebook. The Perception DC modifier for not moving is now +20. So:

base 40

plus 20 (not moving)

minus 20 (speaking)

plus 3 (30')

for a total Perception DC of 43. This to pinpoint the square of someone speaking in a strong voice 30' away. It's a while since I've played blind man's bluff, but even with the spinning of the blindfolded child that game involved, a DC43 is awful high to discern the 5' square of a strong speaker 30' away when you've 6 seconds to be sure of it. It shouldn't be easy, but it should be possible. Even for a commoner with a minor Perception modifier.

What I'm saying is, sure, sometimes people get stuck on terminology. But the issues with Stealth and invisibility aren't simply down to that. There are areas of the Stealth and invisibility rules that just don't work well as written. The above example is only one of many, spread over many chapters.

To pin point the invisible spellcaster should be:

Within 30 feet of invisible creature: Base DC 20
Creature is in combat or speaking: -20
To Pinpoint the wizard: +20

Total is DC 20.

If he is being quiet, DC 40

If he is using Stealth, use Stealth +20

If he is farther away than 30 feet, then use +1/10 feet (+2/10 if in the woods).

Combine as needed. A wizard with silent spell and a Stealth check of 10 who is 50 feet away in the desert sets the Perception DC at 32. If he also has still spell, the DC is 52.

To pin point the invisible spellcaster should be...

Yep, I think that's about what it should be, too (actually, I think it should be a notch easier than DC20, though DC20 is historically correct)

But the mod for not moving is right there on the p563 table, and the caster who is casting for one full round is not moving. It's there, it applies, and it's rules as written. But it doesn't work with the base invisibility Perception DCs (and incidentally, it doesn't fit with the Perception-and-Stealth modifiers, either).

You can rule it as DC20, and I'll be a happy player. But a modifier for not moving actually makes all kind of sense (both for plain Stealth and for invisibility) and there it is, plain as ink.

Bob_Loblaw wrote:

To pin point the invisible spellcaster should be...

Yep, I think that's about what it should be, too (actually, I think it should be a notch easier than DC20, though DC20 is historically correct)

But the mod for not moving is right there on the p563 table, and the caster who is casting for one full round is not moving. It's there, it applies, and it's rules as written. But it doesn't work with the base invisibility Perception DCs (and incidentally, it doesn't fit with the Perception-and-Stealth modifiers, either).

You can rule it as DC20, and I'll be a happy player. But a modifier for not moving actually makes all kind of sense (both for plain Stealth and for invisibility) and there it is, plain as ink.

I just used this paragraph and went from there:

A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Perception check. The observer gains a hunch that “something's there” but can't see it or target it accurately with an attack. It's practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature's location with a Perception check. Even once a character has pinpointed the square that contains an invisible creature, the creature still benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance). There are a number of modifiers that can be applied to this DC if the invisible creature is moving or engaged in a noisy activity.

The first sentence set the DC. The next one added +20 to pinpoint. Then I used the table for the rest.

If you're going to use the table, rules as written, you're using the 'not moving' modifier. Unless you're going to houserule it away. If you're using the table, you're using the not moving modifier if the invisible presence isn't moving. Barring a GM call, those are the rules as writ: -40 to the Perception DC if not moving, +20 to the Perception DC if not moving if you adopt the 4th printing errata (this erratum of which doesn't yet appear in the official rules online).

The greater issue, however, is those base DCs. As written, the presence that is magically invisible gains whopping great base Perception DCs to be discerned. The presence that's invisible in darkness or even supernatural darkness doesn't. The presence behind a closed door doesn't. The Perception DC to perceive the latter is +5, but that's it.

And incidentally, if it's stealthy, the DC to perceive that presence through an arrowslit is higher than to perceive it through that completely opaque door, because improved cover gives +10 Stealth, and total cover doesn't.

These aren't all corner cases. They're not all simply terminology. They're little old bits and pieces that affect Stealth and invisibility, scattered here and there through the rules - and they're all fixable, with a bit of work. I believe the game would be better for the fixing.

I was scanning it quickly. I missed that. For the most part the number is going to be so far out there for a 3rd level wizard my error wouldn't have changed the outcome but it should have been included.

I also don't think that Perception checks should be made in all cases. If someone is behind a closed door with no windows, you can't see them no matter how high you roll. You may attempt to hear them, but there are rules for that in place.

Why wouldn't the presence in darkness count? If it is so dark that you can't see, the creature is simply invisible (treat the perceiving character as blind) and no adjustment is necessary (it doesn't matter if you are doubly invisible, either you can be seen or you can't). If it is a dim light then the Stealth check provides unfavorable conditions and is made at an additional +2. If the light is really dim (candlelight) then the check is at +5.

I do still agree that some changes need to be made. I just don't see these as those changes.

I really like the direction this is going, ESPECIALLY pinning down light intensity with something like a chart or table. I think that alone could help cut confusion tremendously. It wouldn't fix everything, not by a long shot, but it would make a significant difference.

Currently, Hide in Plain Sight is banned at our table. We had a rogue who went into Shadowdancer, and from that point forward he was never hit in combat, because enemies couldn't beat his stealth checks and therefore never saw him coming. On top of that, there's no fluff explanation for how HiPS works, and it breaks suspension of disbelief when someone just disappears for no apparent reason while you're looking at them.

That said, Hide in Shadows seems like a nice alternative. I'm going to point my players to this thread and see how they feel about house ruling some of these changes. Excellent work, friend!

I really like the direction this is going...

Thanks Foghammer :)

The lighting rules: when I finally got down to them and actually looked at them, I'm pretty sure I've never played them as written in decades of gaming. They're complex, and unnecessarily so. I'm not even sure they're realistic, but even if they are, it's a bogging-down kind of level of realism the game rarely has time for. All that raising and lowering by one or two, but only in the extended light zone, not in the primary...argh!

As I've posted the lighting system above, light and darkness spells are affected, of course, and one of the things I'm not 100% certain is right is that Darkness and Deeper Darkness become more potent as I've adjusted them. However, I've twice seen GMs surprised by the fact that the Darkness spell doesn't always or even often produce darkness as written...still, this is one of the many incidental changes you get when you start hauling over the things that Stealth and invisibility touch. It really needs some playtesting.

Hide in Shadows: I'm glad you like that. I spent a while thinking over the flavour I thought the assassin and shadowdancer ability should have. And 'hide in shadows' fits into the game historically. It's still pretty punchy, but it's more limited as I've written it up than the ranger's hide in plain sight (which is of course pure Predator, as it should be at that level).

What did you think of the ranger's camouflage? I'm hoping that looks quite flavoursome and balanced too.

@ Bob: the game as written doesn't treat presences in darkness/behind total cover as invisible. To do so, it would have to allow the invisibility detection system (sense/pinpoint detection DCs) in those cases.

That's the big schism between Perception-vs-Stealth and Perception-vs-invisibility: as the game has it, one is always a straight opposed check with mods, while the other is a Perception check versus a high graduated DC, with a different set of mods...and the mods for Stealth-vs-Perception don't tally with the mods for Perception-vs-invisibility.

Should the presence in darkness/supernatural darkness/behind a closed door be invisible? Yes, right? Well, that's one of the larger changes I've made in the edited rules above. Total cover and total concealment now give mundane invisibility, which uses the invisibility rules - and those rules are adjusted, so that there's not a vast gulf between Perception-Stealth DCs and Perception-invisibility ones.

It remains 'practically impossible' to pinpoint the square of an invisible presence in the rules above. What's different is that the practically impossible DCs herein hover around DC30-50. By the book, they go up to DC90 by about 3rd level.

The only other skill DC described as 'practically impossible' is the Climb DC for catching yourself while falling. That DC ranges from about 30, up to 55. Catching yourself while falling from a slippery ceiling handhold is a DC55.

That seems to me a pretty good benchmark for a 'practically impossible' skill DC. Around DC50-60, skills accomplish crazy things, and are way beyond the reach of normal mortals. Tracking a lone toad across hard ground in moonlight when you're a week behind at twice your normal speed - that's a DC54 Survival check. Impossible stuff.

But as written, the Perception DCs to pinpoint invisible presences rocket up far above that. To the base DCs of 20 or 40 are added +20 or +40 if you're using Stealth, or using Stealth and staying immobile. And if you're using Stealth, that's another d20 plus Stealth skill. It's easy to achieve a DC100 with those base DCs and modifiers at even the lowest levels.

My conclusion is that the detection DCs for invisibility are too high. Even for something that is meant to be 'practically impossible'. DC50 is plenty, since a Stealth specialist is adding his awesome Stealth mod into the mix. And equally, the DCs to detect something invisible in darkness/supernatural darkness/behind total cover - those DCs are too low, because the rules say you don't use the invisibility system for them.

I really like the direction this is going, ESPECIALLY pinning down light intensity with something like a chart or table. I think that alone could help cut confusion tremendously. It wouldn't fix everything, not by a long shot, but it would make a significant difference.

Currently, Hide in Plain Sight is banned at our table. We had a rogue who went into Shadowdancer, and from that point forward he was never hit in combat, because enemies couldn't beat his stealth checks and therefore never saw him coming. On top of that, there's no fluff explanation for how HiPS works, and it breaks suspension of disbelief when someone just disappears for no apparent reason while you're looking at them.

That said, Hide in Shadows seems like a nice alternative. I'm going to point my players to this thread and see how they feel about house ruling some of these changes. Excellent work, friend!

But that's why HiPS is a Su ability...

It is supposed to give the feel of being able to manipulate the shadows around you enough that you can melt back into them. I'm not sure how someone's ability to disappear into the shadows while being observed is harder to believe than the same person's ability to summon a shadow from nowhere. IMO you're doing your players a disservice to ban this one ability, you should be playing with them not against them.

Edit: Add to this the fact that you can't stealth or remain in stealth while fighting. All being hidden really grants you is a miss chance when something has to target your square.

Simon, I quite agree - and I hope the abilities as posted above give a strong sense of a supernatural schtick at work.

If you've time, I'd be interested to see what you think of hide in shadows and improved hide in shadows, as posted above (they're in Part IV, which is the seventh post)

Also - if I could ask you a favour - please try not to sideroad the thread too far into a RAW HiPS discussion. Thanks and best,

the Porp.

But that's why HiPS is a Su ability...

It is supposed to give the feel of being able to manipulate the shadows around you enough that you can melt back into them. I'm not sure how someone's ability to disappear into the shadows while being observed is harder to believe than the same person's ability to summon a shadow from nowhere. IMO you're doing your players a disservice to ban this one ability, you should be playing with them not against them.

Edit: Add to this the fact that you can't stealth or remain in stealth while fighting. All being hidden really grants you is a miss chance when something has to target your square.

@the Porp: Camo looks good too. :D

I really like the direction this is going [...] Excellent work, friend!

I strongly agree -- good job!

I've read through the first couple of posts but haven't made it through the rest of them. I particularly like your approach, porpentine, where you tackle the changes as being applied against the printed ruleset. If nothing else it demonstrates how the stealth/invisibility stuff is scattered throughout the entire book!

That said, I would dearly appreciate if all posters would take their YAST(*) discussion of specific situations to another thread (doesn't even have to be a new one!). I would like to see this thread stay true to a discussion of porp's proposed changes. Thanks!

.

(*) Yet Another Stealth Thread

@ Bob: the game as written doesn't treat presences in darkness/behind total cover as invisible. To do so, it would have to allow the invisibility detection system (sense/pinpoint detection DCs) in those cases.

It actually does treat them the same. It says that if you are in total darkness and can't see, then you are effectively blind. If you are blind, then all creatures are invisible to you. Behind Total Cover seems that it doesn't need a ruling. Not everything needs a rule. If your character already couldn't see through solid, opaque objects, then adding a rule that says that you can't see through walls and doors seems superfluous.

That's the big schism between Perception-vs-Stealth and Perception-vs-invisibility: as the game has it, one is always a straight opposed check with mods, while the other is a Perception check versus a high graduated DC, with a different set of mods...and the mods for Stealth-vs-Perception don't tally with the mods for Perception-vs-invisibility.

This is one of the things that I agree on and think needs to be addressed. I would love to see the two tables combined into one with everything being more consistent.

Should the presence in darkness/supernatural darkness/behind a closed door be invisible? Yes, right? Well, that's one of the larger changes I've made in the edited rules above. Total cover and total concealment now give mundane invisibility, which uses the invisibility rules - and those rules are adjusted, so that there's not a vast gulf between Perception-Stealth DCs and Perception-invisibility ones.

Why does it need a rule? If you can't see them, then you can't see them. If you are trying to determine their presence, then have them make a Perception check using their hearing. There are currently rules for that and no need to add invisibility to the mix. If someone is invisible, you can't see them no matter what your Perception check is. They are still invisible. Pin pointing someone behind a wall doesn't seem like it's going to be a problem most of the time and when it is, just use the rules for hearing through walls/doors.

My conclusion is that the detection DCs for invisibility are too high. Even for something that is meant to be 'practically impossible'. DC50 is plenty, since a Stealth specialist is adding his awesome Stealth mod into the mix. And equally, the DCs to detect something invisible in darkness/supernatural darkness/behind total cover - those DCs are too low, because the rules say you don't use the invisibility system for them.

I think it would be easier to just say that invisibility applies a -20 (or -30 or -40, whatever works) to the Perception check when using vision and then apply situational modifiers on that. The rest of the rules for invisibility (miss chance, not being seen, etc) should remain the same.

Being doubly invisible shouldn't have any more effect than just being invisible. If you can't be seen, then you can't be seen. It doesn't matter if it's because the lights are out, you are behind a wall, or you have invisibility cast on you.

Just so you know, I am not trying to be argumentative and tell you that your house rules are wrong. Bouncing things off of someone who has a different point of view can help get things where you want them. I am also learning some things about invisibility and Stealth that I hadn't thought of yet. I don't think they are going to be issues with my groups but once in a while they surprise me. It's nice to be ready.

@ Bob - no, your comments are really useful. My fear was that this thread would simply sink, because the initial posts are so long. The discussion is all fertile.

Total concealment/total cover and invisibility - and specifically darkness: if you look at darkness (near the end of Chapter 13) you find a slightly mucky set of rules that do state that a perceptor who can't see through darkness is blind. When you go to blindness (Appendix 2), you find that you have two sets of rules for the blind condition, neither of which quite tallies (the rules given in Chapter 13 are more extensive: confusion by omission).

Neither the Chap 13 (darkness) rules on blindness, nor the Appendix 2 (blindness) rules on blindness, use the invisibility rules for detection. They use total concealment. That means the perceptor has to make a pinpoint check, but it's a straight Perception-versus-Stealth check (with mods) to make that pinpoint. What the rules as written don't do is refer to the invisibility graduated DC system - base DCs, with sense and pinpoint combined in one check.

Should you need to sense a presence invisible in darkness/supernatural darkness/behind total cover? Surely so. The invisibility detection system is ideal.

But the invisibility DCs are so high, as written, that expanding them to cover mundane invisibility makes darkness, the closed door and many other things very, very powerful. And if you expand the written invisibility DCs to cover those mundane eventualities, you're keeping the great gulf between Stealth DCs and invisibility DCs.

So what I've done is to expand the invisibility applicability, while bringing those base DCs down. Not down to earth - we're still talking Perception DCs in the 30s and 40s and higher to pinpoint most invisible presences. But the DC90+ Perception checks are gone, and with them the peculiar gulf between mundane invisibility and magical invisibility.

@ Azhrei - thanks!

I'll have to agree with Bob, you are adding another level of complexity to the game that doesn't need to be there. By codifying a whole new ruleset you are taking away from the job of the GM to adjudicate such. I'll agree that there are some groups that absolutely live or die by RAW and nothing else. What you have is a very well thought out houserule for how Stealth and Perception should work but I can't see myself introducing any of it into my campaigns.

I'll agree that the current Stealth and Perception rules leave a bit to be desired, however I think this is why a GM exists. If you set this in stone you take away from the GM.

I'll have to agree with Bob...

I like the spoiled sub-discussion.

It's not a whole new ruleset, really. Bob was quite right when he said that this is really a series of clarifications. Extensive ones, I'll admit.

But here's the thing. Certain systems codify combat and leave out of combat stuff blowing in the wind. Does that make them richer roleplaying experiences? Not in my experience (though I do admire that certain game's precise combat elegance).

If you give the players properly codified rules for Stealth and invisibility, then they know how to pre-imagine and play a wider palette of games. Cloak and dagger. Intrigue and espionage. If the game gives them the tools for subterfuge, and lays them out clearly, it leads them in imaginative directions. The core rules aren't only for the GM, after all.

Stealth and invisibility are part of combat, of course. But if clearly codified, they can be the tools for games which never see combat at all.

I don't think Porpentine is trying to create a new set of rules, just clarify what's already there. The rules for stealth are hopelessly vague, and for those groups who cling to RAW (as my players do) they can be troublesome.

@ Bob - no, your comments are really useful. My fear was that this thread would simply sink, because the initial posts are so long. The discussion is all fertile.

Cool. I just wanted to make sure no one thought I was trying to derail the thread.

Total concealment/total cover and invisibility - and specifically darkness: if you look at darkness (near the end of Chapter 13) you find a slightly mucky set of rules that do state that a perceptor who can't see through darkness is blind. When you go to blindness (Appendix 2), you find that you have two sets of rules for the blind condition, neither of which quite tallies (the rules given in Chapter 13 are more extensive: confusion by omission).

After reading through the Darkness, Blindness, and Invisibility, I think that Darkness and Blindness are essentially doing the same thing. I don't really see much difference between being invisible and being in a completely dark room. In both cases, you can't be seen by the enemy. In this case, I would just use the rules for both and ignore anything that overlaps, applying the worst if necessary.

The rest of your post was just clarification on why you did what you did. I didn't ignore it. I just didn't think it needed anything added.

Nothing to add, just wanted to say +1

Dotting to keep track of.

I've made a few adjustments to the texts posted above in the last week or so. Nothing too major - and since it's such a block of information, I'm not sure if it's worth posting it all again with minor amendments, is it? Anyway, I'll just summarise for now:

(1) Carried cover: I've made this a specific exception for Stealth purposes. The text changes slightly in Perception, Stealth, invisibility and cover. Here's the Perception change as an eg:

"Typically you oppose a creature’s Stealth check with multiple senses, but the most important of these is sight. If your view of a creature is obstructed by any degree of concealment or hard cover, it may attempt a Stealth check against you. Carried cover (such as a tower shield) and transparent cover (such as a window) do not allow Stealth to be used against you."

Why the change: this prevents ludicrousness like carrying a pot plant and hiding behind it. It also creates a more general exception for carried cover, which the tower shield fits into, but which also applies to a few other things - the Hand spells, for example (see below).

(2) Cover: very slight twinking of types to fit the rule above, but basically as is. All types of hard cover allow Stealth attempts, even partial, as long as it's not carried or transparent cover.

(3) Spells - I've hoovered up a few additions that need to be covered -

(i) blur and displacement : these are easy - just define them as miss chances, but specifically not normal or total concealment.

(ii) faerie fire and glitterdust : much more fiddly, but doable. I might post these at some point.

(iii) cloud spells: obscuring mist and fog cloud : these just need to refer to the adjusted rules on invisibility. The other cloud spells work off them.

(iv) hand spells: interposing hand needs to be adjusted for the carried cover rule above.
The other hand spells work off that base.

Okay:

I did miss a few spells, after all. Bloody knew I would. And one loophole, too - the rogue who hides behind a portable pot-plant.

Pot plant clarification at the bottom. Here are the missed spells:

**

* p251, Blur :
(replace first paragraph with the following: )

The subject’s outline appears blurred, shifting and wavering. This distortion imposes a 20% miss chance on attacks made against the subject. Blur does not grant normal concealment. True seeing and blindsight bypass the miss chance, though see invisibility does not.

* p273, Displacement :
(replace description with the following: )

The subject appears to be about 2 feet away from its true location. This distortion imposes a 50% miss chance on attacks made against the subject. Displacement does not grant total concealment. True seeing and blindsight bypass the miss chance, though see invisibility does not.

* p279, Ethereal Jaunt :
(replace first sentence of second paragraph with the following: )

An ethereal creature possesses planar invisibility relative to those on the Material Plane. It is insubstantial, and capable of moving in any direction at half its normal land speed.

* p280, Faerie Fire :
(replace description with the following: )

A pale, harmless glow surrounds the subjects. Outlined creatures take a -20 penalty to Stealth relative to perceptors who can see the faerie fire . Outlined creatures cannot gain total concealment from nonmagical darkness, cannot benefit from blur , displacement , or similar effects, and cannot benefit from invisibility except that conferred by total cover. The light is too dim to have any effect on creatures harmed by or with an aversion to light. You can choose to make faerie fire blue, green or violet at the time of casting.
Light shed by faerie fire is weaker than that of a candle, and provides no significant light intensity. Magical light sources brought into an area of magical darkness shed light only if they are of a higher level than the spell used to create the preexisting darkness, and vice versa. Faerie fire can be cast to counter or dispel any darkness spell of equal or lower level. If faerie fire is cast on a small object that is then placed under a lightproof covering, the spell’s effect is blocked until the covering is removed.

* p284, Fog Cloud :
(replace description with the following: )

A stationary bank of fog billows out from the point you designate. The fog cannot be burned away, but otherwise functions as obscuring mist .

* p290, Glitterdust :
(replace description with the following: )

A cloud of blinding golden particles covers everyone and everything in the area. The sparkling particles cannot be removed until the spell expires. For the duration of the spell, no affected creature or object can benefit from invisibility except that conferred by total cover, and affected creatures take a -40 penalty on Stealth checks. In addition, affected creatures who fail their saves are blinded. Each round at the end of its turn, a creature blinded by glitterdust may attempt a new save to end the blindness.

* p301, Interposing Hand :
(replace first paragraph with the following: )

A Large, floating, disembodied hand appears between you and one foe. The interposing hand moves to remain between you and this foe, regardless of your movement and that of your foe. An interposing hand grants you normal cover against the designated foe (see Chapter 8), though it is treated as carried cover, and so does not allow you to make Stealth checks. Nothing fools the hand: it sticks with the designated foe in spite of any magical or nonmagical concealment, cover, invisibility or alteration in appearance or form. The hand always remains adjacent to you: it does not pursue a foe.

* p317, Obscuring Mist :
(replace first paragraph of the description with the following: )

A stationary mist arises around you. One square of such mist provides normal concealment. More than one square of mist provides total concealment, and thus mundane invisibility (see Appendix 1). The mist blocks all normal sight, as well as low-light vision and darkvision.

***

...and I think that's all the core spells. None-core spells like vanish mostly fit in naturally, and the base cloud and hand spells are referenced by all the higher level versions of those.

Interposing hand makes reference to 'carried cover', and that's the qualifier I would add in to Stealth use - no Stealth use with carried cover. It's also a category which usefully covers things like tower shields and spells like the Hands. This qualifier alters the texts of Perception, Stealth, cover, invisibility and the tower shield. So for example, the third paragraph, first sentence of Stealth's check section looks like this:

"Against most creatures, quietly finding any degree of concealment or hard cover allows you to attempt Stealth. Carried cover (such as a tower shield) and transparent cover (such as a window) do not allow Stealth."

To stop cover getting too complex, I think even partial cover should allow Stealth (you can worm along behind a 2' wall, after all), so I've made that change there.

Finally, I posted a clearer introduction. But this thread already being up and all, it didn't make much sense to post it here - so it's somewhere else around the board.

Maybe someday I'll put it all in one place online, though I'm not sure where or how. Ah well :)

Contact the gentleman who runs d20pfsrd.com and see if he'll add them to that site.

And, um. If you suddenly remember some guy who won PowerBall four years running? That was me, testing the time machine so you can pitch this to Jason in 2008. :)

Contact the gentleman who runs d20pfsrd.com and see if he'll add them to that site.

And, um. If you suddenly remember some guy who won PowerBall four years running? That was me, testing the time machine so you can pitch this to Jason in 2008. :)

I might just try that. Thanks, AdAsGa :)