If a Ranger with Precise shot fires at an opponent engaged with a comrade, he doesn't take the -4 penalty, but his opponent still gains the benefit of Soft Cover (+4 AC) automatically.
Is this right? An engaged opponent has soft cover, if you will, that's why you have a -4 penalty. These seem like the same thing.
There's no example of soft cover / firing into melee in the Core RB. Can someone explain how soft cover / firing into melee differ and how they are to be used, por favor?
Unless im mistaken, Precise shot eliminates the -4 penalty of accidentaly hitting your comrade, soft cover is +4AC to your target cause your comrade is essentially blocking you from having a clear shot. You can eliminate both these penalties with Precise Shot and Improved Precise Shot, Precise shot for the -4 penalty and Improved Precise Shot for the cover bonus to your enemy.
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If a Ranger with Precise shot fires at an opponent engaged with a comrade, he doesn't take the -4 penalty, but his opponent still gains the benefit of Soft Cover (+4 AC) automatically.
If there is something providing the cover between the target and the archer.
An engaged opponent has soft cover, if you will, that's why you have a -4 penalty.
No, an engaged opponent has your buddy moving around and making the shot risky. You take a penalty to avoid shooting your friend.
Cover means something is in the way. The target gets a bonus to AC because he's sheltered by whatever is granting cover.
Example 1:
[Elf] --> [Orc]x[Dwarf]
Dwarf and Orc fighting, Elf shoots arrow. Elf takes -4 penalty for shooting into melee. (Negated if he has precise shot)
Example 2:
[Elf] --> [Dwarf]x[Orc]
Elf not only has the -4 penalty for shooting into melee, but Dwarf is granting Orc soft cover, for a +4 AC bonus.
Example 3:
[Elf] --> [Goblin]x[Orc]
Orc and Goblin fighting. Elf shoots Orc, but is not friendly towards Goblin. Orc gets +4 AC from cover. Elf does not take -4 penalty for shooting into combat, because Goblin is not friendly.
The -4 penalty for Shooting or Throwing into a Melee can be negated by Precise Shot.
The +4 bonus to AC from Cover can be negated by Improved Precise Shot.
Soft cover provides a creature with a +4 AC bonus. Making a ranged attack at a creature in melee takes a -4 penalty. These are separate modifiers.
In your example, a ranger with Precise Shot who fires at an opponent engaged in melee with a comrade would ignore the -4 penalty for the target being in melee, but his enemy would still gain the +4 AC soft cover bonus if there was any creature providing soft cover. Note that just being in melee does not let the opponent claim the soft cover bonus; there has to be some source of soft cover between the ranger and opponent.
To determine if a creature has soft cover:
To determine whether your target has cover from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target's square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover, or through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover (+4 to AC).
EDIT: Ninja'd and out-exampled. :P
So if said Ranger's comrade is engaged with a bugbear in a 5' corridor in front of our friendly, neighborwoods Ranger. The Ranger's Precise shot feat negates the -4 penalty for firing into melee (as has been the case since 3.0), but his comrade is still providing soft cover to the bugbear, granting a +4 cover bonus to AC.
I think that cover it. Thanks! :)
We have been playing that allies don't provide cover if you are attacking past/through them.
[ME]-->[Ally][BBEG] With ME as the archer, RAW, BBEG has protection of cover?
We have been playing that allies don't provide cover if you are attacking past/through them.
[ME]-->[Ally][BBEG] With ME as the archer, RAW, BBEG has protection of cover?
By RAW, yes. The BBEG does have soft cover from you because of your ally. However, you also have soft cover from the BBEG because of your ally as well.
That does only apply if the the oponent is same size category or smaller.
If you ally is medium and the bbeg large, you can just shoot above your ally.
The real problem with this rule though is that it applies to reach weapons too.
While for ranged weapons there are 3 feats you can take to negate this, for reach weapons there are none such feats.
Only a combat expertise, gang up and outflank could negate the penalty on reach weapons.
Anyone knows of other solutions?
That does only apply if the the oponent is same size category or smaller.
If you ally is medium and the bbeg large, you can just shoot above your ally.
For Shooting or Throwing into a Melee:
"If your target (or the part of your target you're aiming at, if it's a big target) is at least 10 feet away from the nearest friendly character, you can avoid the –4 penalty, even if the creature you're aiming at is engaged in melee with a friendly character.
If your target is two size categories larger than the friendly characters it is engaged with, this penalty is reduced to –2. There is no penalty for firing at a creature that is three size categories larger than the friendly characters it is engaged with."
Big Creatures and Cover: "Any creature with a space larger than 5 feet (1 square) determines cover against melee attacks slightly differently than smaller creatures do. Such a creature can choose any square that it occupies to determine if an opponent has cover against its melee attacks. Similarly, when making a melee attack against such a creature, you can pick any of the squares it occupies to determine if it has cover against you."
Nothing about ranged attacks, so the rules for determining cover for ranged attacks still apply. (Any of your corners to all of his)
Also,
If we assume a grid like this :
1 2 3
4 5 6
7 8 9
If your target is in square 5, and your allies are in 2 and 8, then you can fire in from direction 6 and the target gains no soft cover.
Additionally, your allies can be in 8 and 6, and he still get's no soft cover.
If the creature is Large, and is taking up spaces 1, 2, 4, and 5, and you have allies in 8 and 6, you can target 4 and avoid the cover as well, if you're below 8 or 7.
If the creature is big enough that you're firing at a section of him that's not adjacent to any of your friends (for example, if the creature took up all 9 squares, and you had a buddy to the left of 1), then you can attack a portion of it that's 10 feet away or more and not get melee or cover. At least, if I remember SRK's post on the subject correctly.
If the creature is Large, and is taking up spaces 1, 2, 4, and 5, and you have allies in 8 and 6, you can target 4 and avoid the cover as well, if you're below 8 or 7.
This isn't true for a ranged attack, is it?
If you're below 8, any distance, then any of your corners is still going to cross the ally in 8 in order to hit the bottom right corner of 5.
Picking a square only works for melee attacks, not ranged. (Right?)
Well,
I don't know of any rules that state you do not pick a target square for a ranged attack. I don't know how you could make a ranged attack and not pick where you're attacking. After all, if you were attacking with a 5 foot diameter spell, you'd have to pick which one, same as with a 10 foot radius spell, you'd have to pick where to put the center. Seems you need to pick where your shot goes as well. If there's a specific rule stating you pick the center mass of the target for ranged attacks, then of course I'm wrong on this one.
As to hitting 4 if you're below 8, I did make a slight mis-statement on that. Assuming you're firing into 4, and can legally, then as long as your line of effect doesn't pass through your buddy's space in 8, you're fine. So if you're right behind him, you probably get cover mods. If you're 30 feet behind him, you're probably ok.
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So if said Ranger's comrade is engaged with a bugbear in a 5' corridor in front of our friendly, neighborwoods Ranger. The Ranger's Precise shot feat negates the -4 penalty for firing into melee (as has been the case since 3.0), but his comrade is still providing soft cover to the bugbear, granting a +4 cover bonus to AC.
I think that cover it. Thanks! :)
This is exactly right.
And the cleric standing next to the ranger who lacks precise shot takes a -4 penalty because he lacks precise shot AND the bugbear gains a +4 soft cover bonus to AC. So effectively he's at -8.
My recollection is that if the target is more than half exposed (an orc behing a halfling for example) then the cover penalty is reduced to -2.
There is a diagram in the rules where an ogre is "covered" by a medium creature, but grants only -2, if I recall.
If a Ranger with Precise shot fires at an opponent engaged with a comrade, he doesn't take the -4 penalty, but his opponent still gains the benefit of Soft Cover (+4 AC) automatically.
Is this right?
Yes it us. you get two penalties for firing into a melee. -4 for firing into a melee (to avoid hitting a friend) and the penalty for your firing at a target who has soft cover (IE your friend).
My recollection is that if the target is more than half exposed (an orc behing a halfling for example) then the cover penalty is reduced to -2.
There is a diagram in the rules where an ogre is "covered" by a medium creature, but grants only -2, if I recall.
Ogres take up more grid squares so a GM could make that call, but for the ranged attack rules soft cover is a +4 to AC.
PS:An Ogre and orc are different sizes. I am not sure if you meant to use two different creatures. The rules are mostly assuming you are PC sized.
I don't know of any rules that state you do not pick a target square for a ranged attack.
There's rules for cover from ranged attacks.
There's rules for cover from melee attacks.
There's rules for large creatures and melee attacks.
There's no rule I can find specifically for large creatures and ranged attacks. So it makes sense you would continue to use the rules for cover from ranged attacks.
If there's a specific rule stating you pick the center mass of the target for ranged attacks, then of course I'm wrong on this one.
"To determine whether your target has cover from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target's square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover, or through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover (+4 to AC)."
Any of your corners to ALL of his. Your target is the creature, not one square of the creature. The rules for choosing a square of a large creature is explicitly for melee attacks. (Unless there's a rule somewhere otherwise, which is why I'm asking)
you get two penalties for firing into a melee. -4 for firing into a melee (to avoid hitting a friend) and the penalty for your firing at a target who has soft cover (IE your friend).
Cover is not a penalty, it's a bonus.
Shooting into melee is a penalty to your attack. (Negative number)
Cover grants a bonus to the target's AC. (Positive number)
They both hamper your ability to shoot him, however.
you get two penalties for firing into a melee. -4 for firing into a melee (to avoid hitting a friend) and the penalty for your firing at a target who has soft cover (IE your friend).Cover is not a penalty, it's a bonus.
Shooting into melee is a penalty to your attack. (Negative number)
Cover grants a bonus to the target's AC. (Positive number)
They both hamper your ability to shoot him, however.
Same things worded differently. The Bonus your enemy gets is, in essance, a penalty to you from the 'he is harder to hit and therefore that is bad for me' school of thinking.
Same things worded differently. The Bonus your enemy gets is, in essance, a penalty to you from the 'he is harder to hit and therefore that is bad for me' school of thinking.
Which only creates confusion. When the archer announces his attack roll, he should include his attack bonuses and penalties, but does he also include the 'penalty' for cover? The 'penalty' for a prone target? The 'penalty' for the target's armor? The 'bonus' for a blinded target?
If everyone understands and uses the right words then it's easy.
Geez people...
It's right there, just a paragraph below the quoted text posted already.
Partial Cover
If a creature has cover, but more than half the creature is visible, its cover bonus is reduced to +2 to AC and a +1 to reflex saving throws.
I am constantly amazed by how frequently cover is addressed on these boards without acknowledging this part of the rules.
This is pretty huge for your archers who are fighting large creatures with medium allies engaged. You almost always have "partial cover" in those situations. +2 instead of +4 to your target's AC would seem to be a good thing.
Ah, ok, I stand corrected on the picking a space to fire into with a ranged attack.
And just to make things more confusing reach melee weapons use the ranged attack rules for cover.I don't know of any rules that state you do not pick a target square for a ranged attack.There's rules for cover from ranged attacks.
There's rules for cover from melee attacks.
This is one thing that really sucks in my eyes.
What are you supposed to do?Take precise shot and his improved brother for it?
Better feats for reach weapons are really missing and should have been in ultimate combat.