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This discussion started in the Hedge Witch thread.
To break it down, there are certain classes/Archtypes that have abilites that don't state what level they are granted. An example would be the Hedge Witch, the Pack Lord (Druid) or the Beast Master (Ranger). They are all pretty much the same thing, but I'm more familar with Pack Lord, so I'll use that in my example:
Pack Lord has an ability that states:
This ability replaces the 6th-level additional use of wild shape.
The confusion comes in because it replaces a 6th level ability. This causes some to believe that you don't get this ability until 6th level.
My take on it, is that you get it at 1st level but you have to "pay" for it at 6th level. My reasoning is that if you look at all the base classes, the only abilites that don't specifically state a level, are the ones that are granted at first level.
What has me doubting myself, is that if you only take Pack Master until 5th level, you've essentially gotten the ability for free, and makes 1 level dips a lot more powerful.
Does anyone have any further insight on why it might be one way or the other?
I think its a typo and you actually get it at level six, its basicly a more powerful version of the bond a wizard gets with his familiar at 1st level.
Even if you do get it at level one the effect isn't exactly gamebreaking anyway, and if you let it slip its not the end of the world.
Reading it logically, you have it right with the following:
"My take on it, is that you get it at 1st level but you have to "pay" for it at 6th level. My reasoning is that if you look at all the base classes, the only abilites that don't specifically state a level, are the ones that are granted at first level."
When an archetype ability does not state the level it is gained, that level defaults to level 1. To support this, I cite the layout of most base classes. For example,
Aura (Ex): A cleric of a chaotic, evil, good, or lawful deity has a particularly powerful aura corresponding to the deity's alignment (see the detect evil spell for details).
Channel Energy (Su): Regardless of alignment, any cleric can release a wave of energy by channeling the power of her faith through her holy (or unholy) symbol. This energy can be used to cause or heal damage, depending on the type of energy channeled and the creatures targeted.
Sneak Attack: If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.
Et cetera.
There's no reason to assume that these abilities break that tradition. You're losing a sixth level ability to gain a 1st level ability. That's not necessarily always a good thing, heh.
There's no reason to assume that these abilities break that tradition. You're losing a sixth level ability to gain a 1st level ability. That's not necessarily always a good thing, heh.
This is what I was thinking, as it seemed way to common to be a simple typo. I was hoping for me people to weigh in, but maybe this has been discussed before? I did a search but found nothing.
I don't understand the confusion. If it replaces an ability, then you should get it at the level the original ability would have come. In this case, 6th level.
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That is not always the case in archetypes, however. For example, the Brawler fighter gets a number of abilities at 2nd and 3rd level that replace the 3rd and 5th level armor/weapon training.
That is not always the case in archetypes, however. For example, the Brawler fighter gets a number of abilities at 2nd and 3rd level that replace the 3rd and 5th level armor/weapon training.
Thank you so much. That's exactly the type of example I've been looking for, I am absolutely convinced it's a 1st level ability.
Also look where it is in the page layout. The Class features are in order that you receive them. I.e. Lay on Hands is listed before Mercy on the Pal description.
I don't understand the confusion. If it replaces an ability, then you should get it at the level the original ability would have come. In this case, 6th level.
The confusion is (and I thought I made it clear) that there is no level assigned to the ability. If it doesn't have a level in the description, it is first level. The base classes avoid confusion because they have a chart saying what level everything is, the archetypes don't have that chart. But as stated, if we assume they've kept the format the same throughout, anything without a level is 1st level.
Also look where it is in the page layout. The Class features are in order that you receive them. I.e. Lay on Hands is listed before Mercy on the Pal description.
The problem with this is that in the Pack Lord (the one I really care about) there are only two abilities. The first takes the place of Nature's Bond, a first level ability (so obviously 1st level), and the second is the ability in question, which takes the place of a 6th level ability but has no level in the description, leaving room for doubt.
As I've said, the fighter/brawler example given proves it doesn't have to be equal levels, and I'm satisfied that it should be a first level ability.
That is not always the case in archetypes, however. For example, the Brawler fighter gets a number of abilities at 2nd and 3rd level that replace the 3rd and 5th level armor/weapon training.Thank you so much. That's exactly the type of example I've been looking for, I am absolutely convinced it's a 1st level ability.
But if it doesn't specify that it is gained at an earlier level, then what is the logic to assume that it does. The earlier example clearly states that it is gained at an earlier level and that it replaces two abilities gained at higher levels.
If there is nothing to state that you get the ability earlier, why assume that you should?
Because you have to assume they use the same formatting for classes and archetypes. If you look at the base classes, any ability that doesn't explicitly state what level it is gained (Rogue's sneak attack, Barbarian's rage, Ranger's Wild Empathy ect.) is gained at first level. Apply that logic to the Archetypes. Then add in the fact that there is precedence for getting an ability early and "paying" for it later, and it becomes obvious to me that it is a first level ability.
Because you have to assume they use the same formatting for classes and archetypes. If you look at the base classes, any ability that doesn't explicitly state what level it is gained (Rogue's sneak attack, Barbarian's rage, Ranger's Wild Empathy ect.) is gained at first level. Apply that logic to the Archetypes. Then add in the fact that there is precedence for getting an ability early and "paying" for it later, and it becomes obvious to me that it is a first level ability.
However, in this case is states that it replaces the 6th level ability. That seems rather clear that you can't get it until 6th level.
Every ability you mention is gained at a certain level. They are explictly stated as being obtained at those levels, usually on a table. This ability you are talking about comes in at 6th level and there is nothing to suggest otherwise. It clearly states that it replaces a 6th level ability. The only way you can assume that it comes in at 1st level is if you ignore the fact that it says it replaces a 6th level ability. If you don't have the ability yet, you can't replace it. Other archetypes that allow certain abilities at lower levels state this. The Pack Lord does not state that you can obtain it before having the 6th level additional use of wild shape.
You can house rule it any way you want but it seems rather clear that it comes in at 6th level.
Every class ability states a level except ones granted at first level. Look at Barbarian, it has a chart, except the only abilites that don't explicitly state the level are Rage and Fast Movement, which are, of course, the only abilities granted at 1st level. Uncanny Dodge says 2nd level, why would they need to put it if the chart was there? Look at every class with a chart, it is the same thing.
Now you can believe they screwed up the format a few times, and that would mean it's a 6th level ability, or you can believe it was done like every other class, and it's a first level ability.
I honestly think you're grasping at straws. I don't think it's nearly as confusing as you are making it. The ability it replaces is a 6th level ability. There is nothing to suggest that you should get it earlier. You can't replace something that you don't have.
They could have rewritten every archetype to completely replace each original class and taken up the entirety of the book (to include every combination because some archetypes can be mixed with others) or they could have done it the easy way they chose and hoped that the players would be able to handle simple phrases like "this replaces the ability gained at X level."
I've spoken my peace on this and it's really not going to change one way or the other. In my games, I would rule that unless the new ability explicitly states that you gain it sooner then it simply comes into play at the appropriate time that the original ability would have come in. YMMV.
I agree with the confusion. Nu guess would be erroneous formatting, but thats really just a guess. By a strict reading of the RAW, its gained är 1st but i dont think it should be.
I think your query has been a good one, Jodokai, but I'm inclined to agree with Bob. As a GM I would likely rule that at sixth level, instead of gaining an additional wild shape, you gain Improved Empathic Link because you now have the experience to take your companion "link" to a higher level.
I think I could support that argument more strongly in that at each Druid level you have to divide up your Pack bond, but each companion should have at least 1 level devoted to it.
The Improved Empathic Link starts by stating:
The pack lord gains an empathic link with ALL of her animal companions.
This seems to imply you already have more than one companion, therefore you are higher than first level.... I'm just sayin'.
I honestly think you're grasping at straws. I don't think it's nearly as confusing as you are making it. The ability it replaces is a 6th level ability. There is nothing to suggest that you should get it earlier. You can't replace something that you don't have.
I have given you everything that suggests it is first level. You want to believe they changed the format for this one archetype even though it goes against what they did to EVERY OTHER CLASS, cool, but personally I don't think I'm the one grasping straws. Just out of curiosity, have you looked at all the other write ups to see what I'm talking about? If you have, please show me an ability that is granted later than first level, that doesn't specifically say in the ability description what the level is. If you can find me 1 ability like that in all the classes or archetypes, I'll agree with you. Just find me one.
They could have rewritten every archetype to completely replace each original class and taken up the entirety of the book (to include every combination because some archetypes can be mixed with others) or they could have done it the easy way they chose and hoped that the players would be able to handle simple phrases like "this replaces the ability gained at X level."
And I would agree, if that's what they did for all the archetypes, but they didn't. According to you, they only did that for Pack Lord. It is your theory that they specifically stated what level every ability (and I mean every ability) that every other class and archetype (yes, every other class and archetype) get in the description, not the chart, but in the description of the ability except this one. You think the devs just said "Okay we'll do it for all of them, except Pack Lord, we'll just assume people will know better with that ONE SINGLE CLASS"? That's what you're going with? Even though there are specific examples of archetypes that get abilites that replace higher level ones?
The Improved Empathic Link starts by stating:
The pack lord gains an empathic link with ALL of her animal companions.This seems to imply you already have more than one companion, therefore you are higher than first level.... I'm just sayin'.
No, it implies that you will have more than one companion, and when you do, it will apply to all of them.