With a perception score like that I can see 2 real life things happening.
1. Given that he hears everything within a 250 foot radius, even small sounds he should be experiencing sensory overload. The bugs on the ground should drive him crazy with chirping at night. If anything he will have to concentrate to block most of it out, negating the "I always go first" mentality because he is actively trying to ignore some of it.
2. I could also see him getting weapon sounds confused quite easily as the people close to him are drawing their own swords and bows. Perhaps the ruffle of the wizard flipping through his book in the morning is loud enough to stop superman from hearing the gentle pull of a bow and arrow.
Raving: You may also be limited by the maximum encounter distance.
Stealth and Detection in a Forest: In a sparse forest, the maximum distance at which a Perception check for detecting the nearby presence of others can succeed is 3d6 × 10 feet. In a medium forest, this distance is 2d8 × 10 feet, and in a dense forest it is 2d6 × 10 feet.
Stealth and Detection in a Marsh: In a marsh, the maximum distance at which a Perception check for detecting the nearby presence of others can succeed is 6d6 × 10 feet. In a swamp, this distance is 2d8 × 10 feet.
Stealth and Detection in Hills: In gentle hills, the maximum distance at which a Perception check for detecting the nearby presence of others can succeed is 2d10 × 10 feet. In rugged hills, this distance is 2d6 × 10 feet.
Stealth and Detection in Mountains: As a guideline, the maximum distance in mountain terrain at which a Perception check for detecting the nearby presence of others can succeed is 4d10 × 10 feet. Certain peaks and ridgelines afford much better vantage points, of course, and twisting valleys and canyons have much shorter spotting distances. Because there's little vegetation to obstruct line of sight, the specifics on your map are your best guide for the range at which an encounter could begin. As in hills terrain, a ridge or peak provides enough cover to hide from anyone below the high point.
At those distances, you may be guaranteed to spot the hiding rogues, but if your party isn't sneaking they're bound to spot your party at the same time.
It's magic divination, which is great, but not a +50 perception. If you notice, spider man almost always wastes his surprise round doing nothing but shouting "spider senses tingling."
This made me lawl.
BNW, thats exactly what i meant. Just didn´t know those rules.
It´s really good to have this forum.
Other than the maximum detection distances, pointed out by BigNorseWolf (and Hayato Ken), keep in mind that perceiving something (say muffled conversation) does not mean you also pin-point the source of what you perceived.
In other words, you can perceive "roughly 300ft more-or-less ahead of us, there is some talking happening" - but this isn't really enough to lob a fireball exactly into the middle of the talkers. Given the way sound propagates, the actual source may be 300ft ahead and 100ft to the left or right.
With a perception score like that I can see 2 real life things happening.
1. Given that he hears everything within a 250 foot radius, even small sounds he should be experiencing sensory overload. The bugs on the ground should drive him crazy with chirping at night. If anything he will have to concentrate to block most of it out, negating the "I always go first" mentality because he is actively trying to ignore some of it.
If it hit you suddenly, I'd agree with this - but if it was something you built up over 15 levels, you'd probably adapt. You'd still be able to pick up the pitter patter of subterranean ants and the majestic glide of tectonic plates, but an anomalous noise like boots crunching leaves would jump right out at you.
(It's easier for this class, too, because you can attribute some of the perceptive ability to magical precognition, sensing disturbances in the Force, hearing the Worldsong or something like that. It doesn't all have to be about retinal cone density and the elastic modulus of cochlear hair cells. :) )
And who is to say that someone with these kind of incredible abilities and unbelieveable senses would not also have the mental capacity to not be overwhelmed by it as well?
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I think Zulfer's point was to negate auto-wins not to always trump a player's hard work at making a PC.
Thank you Wraith, yes that ws my point.
No game is fun if its all auto wins. Do you play without dice? Do you still fight rooms of Level 1-2 Kobalds at 15 and find it a challenge? They cannot even hit except on a 20.
I currently have a person playing that has a trip maxed character, all he does is trip. As a good DM, its my responsibility to the group to add flying creatures and snakes and multi-legged creatures to amke it a challenge, which the poeple here on the boards helped me to find good ideas with how to do.
A Level 15 character is supposed to fight things around their level or higher, which means they have trained as long as the PC and should use tactics.
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When a player puts three feats, makes a class choice, and buys a magic item so his character is really, really good at something, his character should benefit from that.
15 ranks
08 wisdom modifier
06 skill focus feat
05 eyes of the eagle
04 alertness feat
03 class skill (due to the Cosmopolitan feat)
02 racial bonus (for being a kenku)
43 TOTAL MODIFIER
I agree with BNW regarding max encounter distances, but otherwise there is no need to build arbitrary boundaries around a skill which is a pretty basic staple of the game. A character with a ridiculous perception check isn't going to break the game.
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As for auto-wins, consider for a moment:
.
.
15th level rogue stealth check:
15 ranks
+7 dexterity
+3 class skill
+6 skill focus
+5 cloak of elvenkind (or elixir of hiding grants +10)
+36 without even trying too hard. If they took stealthy and were size small it would be +44, finally add +20 for using a ring of invisibility... and it's auto fail even with RDs +43.
The 'problem' with skills in Pathfinder is they are easy to ramp up way beyond what 'normal' characters can achieve. Opposed skills can only be opposed by someone who has invested nearly equally.
My point with the auto-win statement was that normal encounters can't really compete with RD's skill modifier. I was saying that occasionally it should be challenged since RD took the other post as saying his perception should be shutdown.
That stealth check is not trying hard for you or me, but many GM's could not have countered it.
Realistically, such a person isn't "going first" such a person is either suffering from sensory over load and pretty much catatonic or they're filtering out most of what their senses tell them.
I think it's save to assume that such a person has not only trained how to filter out certain inputs, but also to determine which ones really matter. In short, no negative gaming effects. What you describe just sounds like vengeful GM punishment to me. Resorting to such a thing is a sure sign that a GM not only doesn't know how to deal with simple challenges, but also demonstrates both a lack of maturity and knowledge of the rules.
Terrain limitations rules
I'm familiar with those rules, but not having looked at them in a while I must say those ranges are a bit shorter than I was remembering. Thanks for the refresher.
Other than the maximum detection distances, pointed out by BigNorseWolf (and Hayato Ken), keep in mind that perceiving something (say muffled conversation) does not mean you also pin-point the source of what you perceived.
In other words, you can perceive "roughly 300ft more-or-less ahead of us, there is some talking happening" - but this isn't really enough to lob a fireball exactly into the middle of the talkers. Given the way sound propagates, the actual source may be 300ft ahead and 100ft to the left or right.
Can't you pinpoint an invisible creature's exact square with a high enough Perception check? And that's when they're not even talking! I like to think that pinpointing the exact square of visible, talking creature who isn't trying to hide would be much easier.
That being said, I would have no problem whatsoever with a GM ruling as you describe. It makes sense, and is perfectly fair.
...if it was something you built up over 15 levels, you'd probably adapt. You'd still be able to pick up the pitter patter of subterranean ants and the majestic glide of tectonic plates, but an anomalous noise like boots crunching leaves would jump right out at you.
(It's easier for this class, too, because you can attribute some of the perceptive ability to magical precognition, sensing disturbances in the Force, hearing the Worldsong or something like that. It doesn't all have to be about retinal cone density and the elastic modulus of cochlear hair cells. :) )
This is exactly the way I see it as well.
A Level 15 character is supposed to fight things around their level or higher, which means they have trained as long as the PC and should use tactics.
I agree, but they should also FEEL like they are level 15. At that point they could easily wipe out whole armies, control kingdoms overtly or subtly, or create whole new worlds. In short, the world doesn't (usually) level up with them. A reoccurring character, major villain, or horrific monster should indeed continue to be a challenge, but after a while, the town guard, the shopkeep, or even the local warlord's elite bodyguards should be mere mice to them.
My point with the auto-win statement was that normal encounters can't really compete with RD's skill modifier. I was saying that occasionally it should be challenged since RD took the other post as saying his perception should be shutdown.
That stealth check is not trying hard for you or me, but many GM's could not have countered it.
First, thanks for helping to clear things up. Second, I'm curious to know how often "occasionally" is to you.
Other than the maximum detection distances, pointed out by BigNorseWolf (and Hayato Ken), keep in mind that perceiving something (say muffled conversation) does not mean you also pin-point the source of what you perceived.
In other words, you can perceive "roughly 300ft more-or-less ahead of us, there is some talking happening" - but this isn't really enough to lob a fireball exactly into the middle of the talkers. Given the way sound propagates, the actual source may be 300ft ahead and 100ft to the left or right.
Can't you pinpoint an invisible creature's exact square with a high enough Perception check? And that's when they're not even talking! I like to think that pinpointing the exact square of visible, talking creature who isn't trying to hide would be much easier.
That being said, I would have no problem whatsoever with a GM ruling as you describe. It makes sense, and is perfectly fair.
Yes, you can pin-point an invisible creature's exact square, by making the perception check and beating the basic DC by 20. So whatever the stealth check is that you have to beat just to know "there is someone" needs to be beaten by 20 to pinpoint the square (see page 443 in Core).
Extrapolating, if you hear someone 300ft away but don't see them, you'd have to increase the DC by 20 to know with some precision where they are at.
Personally, when GMing, I'd still diffuse the location a bit at 300ft you'd get accurate square within 20ft radius if you beat the DC by 20 - and for every 5 more you reduce the radius by 5ft. But that's just me.
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My point with the auto-win statement was that normal encounters can't really compete with RD's skill modifier. I was saying that occasionally it should be challenged since RD took the other post as saying his perception should be shutdown.
That stealth check is not trying hard for you or me, but many GM's could not have countered it.
I just get a little irritated by suggestions that GMs should invent arbitrary limits on a player. I don't think you suggested it but some others in this thread have.
If you want to limit your player's perception scores down to sane levels then tell them they can't take Skill Focus and remove eyes of the eagle or other similar boosters from the game. That way they are at least honestly being nerfed. Tossing in random 'you are confused by chirping birds' effects is just cheep in my opinion.
House rules are cool but be honest and forthright about them. Making them post-facto because one of your PCs is 'too good' isn't fair.
Edit: I think my example of +36 was a pretty basic one, well within the realm of what you might expect an NPC rogue at that level to have. Also, it hasn't been mentioned much in this thread, but there is a -1 per 10 feet of distance penalty to perception.
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@Ravingdork — I think you should also keep in mind that 'Perception' is based on sight, sound, and other senses. If a creature is completely out of line of sight, it's entirely reasonable for a GM to assign a circumstance bonus to the DC to pinpoint it similar to the DC for pinpointing an invisible PC.
So a creature that's 200 feet away in a jungle you would have a -20 penalty for distance plus a -20 penalty because you can't see him at all (similar to the penalty for invisibility).
Ravingdork i agree with you on the fact that in 98% of all cases you will be aware of the oponents and be able to act in the surprise round.
That´s just set.
What i disagree is the "i sense everything" topic.
Its restricted by maximum encounter distance and the environment.
I do think in special situations the GM should give you hints about noticing something. But its your game and you can play however you and the rest agree on it. Have fun ne.
Stealth:
15 ranks
7 DEX
3 class skill
6 skill focus
4 stealthy
4 small
10 ring of chameleon power
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49
+ 20 greater invisibility/40 if not moving.
(Is attacking moving?)
I do think perception can be much higher.
All AM B ... nonsense will not be acknowledged untill a full build is posted.
Actually its interesting to see how this works with perception.
Good thread RD-
Well played Ogre. The cheap bird shit was me.
I was not aware of maximum encounter distance because we never used it before. I still think a character pinpointing things by perception from 200-300' away and then bombarding it is cheesy and would restrict it in my game. I would allow the high perception for a lot of other stuff though. I also think stuff like smell or hearing on such distances are difficult. I just didn´t look it all up, but argued from my stomach.
And he did say this:
"He can hear the details of a conversation from over 250 feet distant, while sleeping behind a closed door, surrounded by party goers (severe conditions), and having lucid dreams (distracted), without needing to roll the dice."
lets do math:
-details of conversation: 0
-250': +25
-closed door: +5
-severe(terrible conditions): +5
-distracted: +5
-asleep: +10
-----------------------------------
DC 50
So by RAW RD is right and there is no reason for +20 from pinpoint.
For a ambush guys would probably know who is coming, whisper and use stealth, raising DC. (whispering +15)
--> Whisper DC 65
In a real scenario, you would be awake not maybe not distracted.
So -15.
BUT: In most all landscapes, vision is not clear, so its hearing or smelling. Since you don´t have scent, let´s drop smelling.
Then we are left with this: Through a wall:+10/foot of thickness.
Whats a wall? Buildings, trees/forests, hills, mountains, canyons, etc.
Even in a desert folks would hide behind some dunes.
THEN weather effects come in. Rain, snow and wind can hamper your perception.
Say the ambush is in the next canyon, even if its only 10' stone between you, the DC would be raised by 100.
I guess you see the picture now.
For dropping a fireball on them like you said pinpoint rules come into play, if its in maximum encounter range.
Well played Ogre. The cheap bird s&&& was me.
I was not aware of maximum encounter distance because we never used it before. I still think a character pinpointing things by perception from 200-300' away and then bombarding it is cheesy and would restrict it in my game. I would allow the high perception for a lot of other stuff though. I also think stuff like smell or hearing on such distances are difficult. I just didn´t look it all up, but argued from my stomach.And he did say this:
"He can hear the details of a conversation from over 250 feet distant, while sleeping behind a closed door, surrounded by party goers (severe conditions), and having lucid dreams (distracted), without needing to roll the dice."lets do math:
-details of conversation: 0
-250': +25
-closed door: +5
-severe(terrible conditions): +5
-distracted: +5
-asleep: +10
-----------------------------------
DC 50So by RAW RD is right and there is no reason for +20 from pinpoint.
For a ambush guys would probably know who is coming, whisper and use stealth, raising DC. (whispering +15)
--> Whisper DC 65In a real scenario, you would be awake not maybe not distracted.
So -15.
BUT: In most all landscapes, vision is not clear, so its hearing or smelling. Since you don´t have scent, let´s drop smelling.
Then we are left with this: Through a wall:+10/foot of thickness.
Whats a wall? Buildings, trees/forests, hills, mountains, canyons, etc.
Even in a desert folks would hide behind some dunes.
THEN weather effects come in. Rain, snow and wind can hamper your perception.Say the ambush is in the next canyon, even if its only 10' stone between you, the DC would be raised by 100.
I guess you see the picture now.
For dropping a fireball on them like you said pinpoint rules come into play, if its in maximum encounter range.
Your math and various assumptions/rulings seem sound. However, you need to lower all of your proposed DCs b5 due to eagle eyes. I get 50 feet of distance for FREE.
Also, a canyon is not a room enclosed by walls. Sound can carry upwards and over, or even echo about, actually traveling farther than it normally would. A wall does not penalize Perception checks. Enclosed spaces and things that stop sound do.
If I have a 50 foot thick boulder in front of me and my comrades, it is NOT under any circumstances going to prevent me from calling my comrades for help (though the distance might).
If he's distracted, he can't take 10. :P
Whos aid anything about taking 10? Nearly all of my initial calculations assumed I rolled a ONE.
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Your math and various assumptions/rulings seem sound. However, you need to lower all of your proposed DCs b5 due to eagle eyes. I get 50 feet of distance for...
Again you make this incorrect assumption that line of sight doesn't matter.
"You ignore up to –5 in penalties due to distance on visual Perception checks, allowing you..."
Eagle eyes doesn't even work when you are sleeping or when you are 'hearing' a conversation 250 feet away.
Eagle Eyes[/url]]
Prerequisites: Wis 13, keen senses racial trait.Benefit: You ignore up to –5 in penalties due to distance on visual Perception checks, allowing you to see accurately at much greater distances than most.
I guess youre playing a gnome?
It´s really only on sight based perception and only -5.Rolling a one is a fail in any case as far as i know?
Guess that changed with skill checks too and its only our houserule.
The checks for environment depend on what there actually all is.
I.e. a forest, there are many trees and animals, an average forest has maybe 2 1' thick trees per m² with foliage. Of course you can hear your friends scream there. But for 250' that would be a DC of (25 distance+2 unfavorable conditions + (250*2*10=5000; since its only foliage muffling the noises divide it by half again, making it 2500) 2500, -10 sound of battle) 2523. Bam. Ok im not sure how to count the forest, lets apply the reasons you brought in, i would still name it around 250 maybe, at least above 100. And thats also realistic.
Your example with the boulder depends on how high and brought it is i would say. The wall in the rules could also be a castle wall, it doesn´t mention closed rooms there.
Well, let me dare to outdork ravingdork here for a second.(i would NOT rule it this way, just showing some of the absurdities with the raw)
You have a standard bandit waiting along the road in ambush in a forest. The maximum distance at which he can be spotted is 60 feet (-6 modifier)
The party is walking along a trail in standard formation: Fighter Sorcerer Cleric.
The fighter walks within within 60 feet of the bandit and rolls perception checks.
The fighter is just walking along the trail (dc 0 to spot, -6 for distance= DC6= no way in hell a 15th level rogue is missing)
The Empyreal sorcerer is technically too far away to even roll a check. He's automatically surprised by the distance rules. (i would just allow him to roll anyway and give him further penalties depending on his distance from the fighter)
So BNW, generally you are saying "the maximum distance at which a Perception check for detecting the nearby presence of others can succeed" is limited by the terrain, what is RAW.
The sorcerer would be too far away because he is 65' away?
This RAW quite finishs our little discussion here.
Only there are no rules for urban areas. Do such exist?
So BNW, generally you are saying "the maximum distance at which a Perception check for detecting the nearby presence of others can succeed" is limited by the terrain, what is RAW.
The sorcerer would be too far away because he is 65' away?
Yes, but with 16 asterixes saying that this is NOT RAI, it is horribly unfair to the Sorcerer, and i would never, ever ever run it precisely that that way, and I feel the desire to smack myself in the head with a newspaper for even thinking of it.
_____________
What i am saying is that for a practical matter, you almost never need to worry about EaglerEye the emperyal sorcerer spotting the encounter from 200 feet away because the rules don't let him. The rules force him to be closer to the encounter before he's even allowed to make his check: at which point his foes have an ok chance at spotting his party unless eagle eye AND friends have all pumped up their stealth skills. EagleEye should be spotting the bandits at the same time the bandits are spotting the fighter, initiative is rolled for eagle eye and the bandits, and a fun ambush is had by all.
Only there are no rules for urban areas. Do such exist?
To the best of my knowledge, no.
You make an excellent point bnw but i think that the seemingly arbitrary maximum encounter distance is probably a very fair and impartial way for a GM to limit this kind of perception score.
Rd would still have the benefits of his huge perception score vs invisible or stealthy opponents and in certain terrain, for example marsh terrain 6d6x10ft max encounter distance he could be spotting things up to 360ft away or averaging 210ft away.
I honestly think this is a built in function of the birds and insects effect people have mentioned, if you have no line of sight such as in a forest spotting anything would be hard, everywhere you go theres background noise and no matter how perceptive you are if the wind in a tree ten feet away is much louder than a guy talking 100 feet away your not going to hear him, same goes for smells and such.
I'm actually quite happy to discover that the game already has an in built check and balance for this kind of issue and will be using it should one of my players pull out a perception score this high.
First, thanks for helping to clear things up. Second, I'm curious to know how often "occasionally" is to you.
Maybe during boss fights of I might decide to make a non boss fight challenging if too many encounters are being steamrolled. After that I let the player go back to doing his thing. Occasionally is less than 20% for sure.
I just get a little irritated by suggestions that GMs should invent arbitrary limits on a player.
I agree with this. :)
So, this is about a real character this time?
So, this is about a real character this time?
See for yourself. (I had to remove eagle eye as he did not meet the racial qualification.)
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Now, I roll initiatives every round, but even if you didn't, I'd keep the initial initiative roll and have everyone use their rolled initiative from round 2 forward.
Rolling initiative each round go against a lot of game mechanics.
"I have rolled a 20, my current imitative is 27, I am before all other guys: I start casting Summon Monster." "Crap, now I have rolled a 1 and my initiative is 8, I will be attacked twice by most adversaries before finishing my spell."or the other way around:
"He, he I have an initiative of 1, now I will cast Summon monster, as I get to reroll I it almost granted that I will avoid some attack simply because my initiative will be better next round."
Then there are things like delay and ready an action that change your initiative count. A high initiative character could delay his action to a count of 1 to get 2 round of action back to back.
Even things like a monk stunning fist will be affected. it last till the character delivering it act again. If he deliver it at a low initiative count and then get a high initiative count it last a short time and the group benefit little from it. It is even possible that the target will lose no action. If he deliver it at a high initiative count it could last for a long time, making the target lose 2 round of actions.
I fail to see how you can manage it without changing a lot of game mechanics.
If you have a good solution for those problems I would be curious to hear it, possibly in a new thread in the advice forum, so that we will not derail this one.
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I can see it now:
GM: You divine that something is amiss. What do you do?
Diviner: I ask the sorcerer what I'm missing.:D
Talking IS a free action that can be taken out of turn after all. The above diviner may well have enough time to get a response from my sorcerer and act upon the new information.
But not before your first action (i.e. you can't voluntary speak when you are flat footed [you can reflexively cry out when stabbed]).
So if he ask before you can act he will have to wait till your initiative to get a reply.Realistically, such a person isn't "going first" such a person is either suffering from sensory over load and pretty much catatonic or they're filtering out most of what their senses tell them.
Actually RD character isn't hearing/seeing ecc. more (at least not more that another character with good sight and hearing), he is more capable on discerning what is meaningful and what not and to recognize shapes and sound that matter to him.
I work in a library. Often I can recognize the book I want from across a 10 meters room and within a series of bookshelves with hundred of boos. And I am near-sighted.
On the other hand if you were to present me 2 cars and and say "we will use the Ford" I would have to go near it and read the brand name on the hood or rear end of the car as I don't care about cars.
RD character probably can recognize things like "sound of scraping steel" and "chain mail jingling" from plenty of background noises with ease.
To make another example of what, from my point of view, is a extraordinary feat of perception, but for other people is normal:
a trained musician (or even a skilled amateur) can notice that one instrument in a orchestra is slightly off-key even while the whole band is performing. I, a mere musical consumer, will not notice it.
More often than not we perceive much more than we though, but generally we discard most of the information as meaningless.
What RD character has done is to train his ability in evaluating what is relevant.
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So, this is about a real character this time?See for yourself. (I had to remove eagle eye as he did not meet the racial qualification.)
How many games do you play in??
You seem to always be involved in games and they always seem to be high level content. I wish I could play in a tenth of the games you play in.
I honestly admit that i didn´t know about the terrain rules limiting perception before. I only read about AM you know what and found it cheesy to spot an enemy from 800' and then ragelancepounce him.
I was just trying to make something up to prevent that. Since there are already rules for it, its not neccesary and i take it all back.
I would still apply higher DC´s according to the nature of the special terrain, but sometimes they would be lower too.
Yeah and i had a hard time to find out what a kenku is ... ^^
By the way, i want to say that i really like most of Ravingdorks threads, because they bring a lot of normally not so familiar rules aspects into spotlight and often end with clarification and learning aspects. A cool thing.
Have you considered how much your perception will be disrupted by travelling with a group of (possibly armored) people?
The natural way to keep your detection powers from being a constant hassle is to say that it's harder to hear/smell/sense a rasp of steel 200 feet away when the people 4 feet away are walking, jingling, crunching leaves and talking about what to have for lunch.
Scouting so that you could bring your full perception to bear would probably involve getting out of earshot of the rest of the group (a hell of a long way, in this case) moving around to get a good vantage point, and being still for a while to concentrate and take in the ambient noise.
(In other words, as a DM, I'd be trying to let you have some fun with the detection thing so you feel good about taking it, but also convey that you've hit the point of seriously diminishing returns for it, and that ramping Perception up ever higher will only make a difference if you're being stalked by a master assassin or something.)
I just wanted to pop in and mention that if I was DMing for Ravingdork's character I'd just flip flop the game mechanics and have every encounter be an encounter that you must roll perception for instead of just surprise round encounters.
Man sleeping under a tree in the forest? Perception checks!
Woman in the back room of a bakery? Perception checks!
Cat trying to hide behind a short wall? Perception checks!
This character could seriously turn any mundane situation into a possible surprise round encounter. Walking down an alleyway in a busy city. Perception check of 45! All of the windows in this alleyway have movement within them and you can hear residual sounds like metal on metal or leather shuffling. Here's the big question: Are these rogues trying to stealth to get the jump on you... or are you just hearing the ambient sounds of a crowded medieval fantasy civilization?
Part of what makes this character very powerful is that most DMs won't call for a Perception check on every single encounter with every single creature-- just combat encounters. This makes it very easy to game the system-- if every Perception check is an encounter, you never run the chance of failing to perceive every encounter.
I would actually argue that keeping your perception low, around +30, is more effective than trying to jack it up too high.
Or just get tremorsense.
Well, you don't want to obnoxiously punish a character for being awesome at something - just keep them from marginalizing the other players, and maybe encourage them to stop running up their big stat.
Part of being perceptive - you hear this all the time when you read about learning and expert knowledge - is the idea that it's not so much that you get more sensory input than everybody else, you're just exceptionally good at recognizing which details are important and which ones can be ignored.
An expert observer may or may not have better eyes. But he's always paying attention to the exact right places. :)
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I think the rules are pretty clear on this. Combat doesn't happen without initiative. Even surprise rounds.
RD's hears something and want to throw a Fireball. Then those aware of the encounter is underway roll init. In this case, it would be RD and the diviner. Yes, the diviner could go first before the Fireball is launched. RD's PC's high perception actually MAKES the diviner better at getting the low down. Now the Diviner may not know a target or even a general direction, but the Diviner knows he's in a surprise round of combat and can act.
It's not punishing the god-like perception score by allowing the Diviner to go first in the surprise round if the Diviner wins init. It would be punishing the Diviner, not to.
How many games do you play in??
You seem to always be involved in games and they always seem to be high level content. I wish I could play in a tenth of the games you play in.
I play in multiple groups in multiple campaigns, but only average about 2 games every 3 weekends. I do a LOT of thought exercises and critical thinking during the interim though.
By the way, i want to say that i really like most of Ravingdorks threads, because they bring a lot of normally not so familiar rules aspects into spotlight and often end with clarification and learning aspects. A cool thing.
I'm happy to read that as that is something I specifically aim for whenever I post.
I just wanted to pop in and mention that if I was DMing for Ravingdork's character I'd just flip flop the game mechanics and have every encounter be an encounter that you must roll perception for instead of just surprise round encounters.
Man sleeping under a tree in the forest? Perception checks!
Woman in the back room of a bakery? Perception checks!
Cat trying to hide behind a short wall? Perception checks!This character could seriously turn any mundane situation into a possible surprise round encounter. Walking down an alleyway in a busy city. Perception check of 45! All of the windows in this alleyway have movement within them and you can hear residual sounds like metal on metal or leather shuffling. Here's the big question: Are these rogues trying to stealth to get the jump on you... or are you just hearing the ambient sounds of a crowded medieval fantasy civilization?
Part of what makes this character very powerful is that most DMs won't call for a Perception check on every single encounter with every single creature-- just combat encounters. This makes it very easy to game the system-- if every Perception check is an encounter, you never run the chance of failing to perceive every encounter.
I would actually argue that keeping your perception low, around +30, is more effective than trying to jack it up too high.
Or just get tremorsense.
What an irresponsibly childish way to GM!
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Keep in mind that if you throw a fireball "into yonder trees", it's likely to just hit one of the trees. As far as I know, fireballs go in a straight line. Unless you can see your enemies in the forest, you'll just be fireballing the trees between you and them. If you can see the enemy but they are in dense foliage or cover, you have to do a ranged touch attack on the cover in question in order to pass through it. I also see no provision in the RAW for a fireball going over a hill and back down the other side.
I just picked on the example of using a fireball, but you get the picture. Even given that you've determined there's something fishy or unnatural going on in a certain area, that doesn't mean you can necessarily throw a spell into it.
Also, casting offensive spells without even knowing for sure that your target is hostile should be an issue (ie, not something you would do) for any Good-aligned PC. If you aren't Good, but have party members who are, that sort of behavior should also cause problems with party cohesion.
I understand, freeAgent, I merely threw out a quick example to make a point, not necessarily to be realistic. A lot of people have already asked "why not just warn your party mates and get to a better position" to which my answer is "I probably would."
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I understand, freeAgent, I merely threw out a quick example to make a point, not necessarily to be realistic. A lot of people have already asked "why not just warn your party mates and get to a better position" to which my answer is "I probably would."
Yeah, that's how I'd play it. It's basically just extremely difficult for you to be caught by surprise.