I have an empyreal sorcerer character with a +43 Perception modifier and the Eagle Eyes feat. That means, under normal conditions, he can hear a bow string being drawn from nearly 250 feet away without even needing to roll a check. If he rolls, on average, he will hear it from nearly 350 feet away.
He can hear the details of a conversation from over 250 feet distant, while sleeping behind a closed door, surrounded by party goers (severe conditions), and having lucid dreams (distracted), without needing to roll the dice.
Obviously, not much gets past his notice. Ever.
It is my belief that this character would and should get to go first in most encounters.
Say there are orc raiders in a forest readying a general ambush for any travelers that happen along the trail. My sorcerer will hear/spot them LONG before they hear/spot the party.
How do you handle this?
Do you roll initiative as normal and have a surprise round? That, I think, would cheat the person who invested in the super high perception. After all, why would his party mates or the orcs roll for initiative at all when they AREN'T EVEN AWARE of the coming situation?
That's why I think the sorcerer should go first in nearly every situation. He gets the privilege of initiating combat (perhaps by lobbing a fireball into yonder trees). Only then does everyone else become aware and roll initiative. There may or may not be a surprise round (likely the fireball WAS the surprise round), and everyone starts following the initiative order (with my sorcerer likely being in the middle somewhere due to his mediocre initiative).
I'm mostly looking for rules support to back up my interpretation, as I get the distinct impression my GM is going to start every encounter within 30-60 feet of the party out of laziness despite the fact that, that it should be RARE for anything to get that close without my character's knowledge.
You still roll initative for the surprise round if your the only one who knows its just only those who know get to go.
And at your distances it should be easy to tell the party whats ahead and sneak up to strike range and then proceed to take a round on the still unaware orcs. Barring a guy who dumped dex in full plate with a tower shield with no ranks in stealth.
You still roll initative for the surprise round if your the only one who knows its just only those who know get to go.
And at your distances it should be easy to tell the party whats ahead and sneak up to strike range and then proceed to take a round on the still unaware orcs. Barring a guy who dumped dex in full plate with a tower shield with no ranks in stealth.
Oh I know that. I'm not really concerned about what initiative count he ends up acting on, only that I get to be the first to take action (or make a decision). It's only logical as I will be the first to be aware of a situation most of the time.
Well, if my GM tried to pull that I would be asking "What was their Stealth check to be able to get that close to us?"
If they got a 25, for example, then I would be like "ok, I roll perception I got a 55. I hear them by the time they are about 300 ft away.."
Or some such.
If you invest significant resources in something it shouldn't be ignored.
That would be equivalent to you building a crazy fire mage only to have the GM be like "Ok everything in this campaign is immune to fire"
Yes if your the only one to know its coming your the only one to act.
If somehow the orcs have the same check on you and one of them hears you the two of you would roll for first.
And yeah you should probably take 10 give the GM the number and let him know your planning on being able to hear/see encounters with plenty of time to react not just stumble on them.
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If there is only one person aware, you can do whatever you want.
Ooh. I didn't even think about those who automatically act in surprise rounds, 0gre.
Using the orc example above, let's say there is a diviner in the party and I hear the orcs breathing 200 feet away. I decide to lob the fireball at them without alerting the party first.
Since combat has been initiated, the GM has us all roll initiative (as he should).
However, the diviner gets a higher initiative count due to his class abilities and ALSO gets to act in the surprise round too. But he isn't aware of the orcs. He may not even necessarily be aware of my character's intend to throw the fireball at that point.
So what's he going to do? Short of metagaming, I don't see him doing anything to effect the coming combat.
On one hand, if the diviner goes first, my character has been cheated out of his abilities; but if I'm allowed to go first due to the diviner not knowing what's going on, than the diviner gets cheated out fo his class abilities.
How do you resolve this in the rules?
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On one hand, if the diviner goes first, my character has been cheated out of his abilities; but if I'm allowed to go first due to the diviner not knowing what's going on, than the diviner gets cheated out fo his class abilities.
How do you resolve this in the rules?
Is the Diviner or yourself really being cheated ?
The Diviner may be able to go first but what would he do if he is totally unaware of what is actually going down.It would be pretty metagamy for him to act out of character just because he had to roll initiative.If he were to look around at the situation and everything looks and seems normal why would he do anything other than what he was doing in the first place.
Unless by the act of rolling initiative you know in character that something is going to happen.Which in a situation like the above you stated he would not.
My diviners call this the buff round. As in crap spider sense tingling........ don't see anything yet.........lets drop shield on my self/cast a scroll of haste to be safe.(I actually have taken to keeping a scroll of haste in hand just for when the party wanders up on an ambush or the ranger pulls a RD.
Heck i would love a guy like you to back me up if we could take the team work feat for init we would both get full round actions when your super senses trigger my spider sense.
The way I do surprise rounds where a specific person initiates (such as the above where the +43 perception guy is tossing a fireball), then everyone who had a higher initiative goes in dex order immediately after the fireball lobber (assuming they can act).
Another good example of this is 5 PCs talking to 4 NPCs, and one of the 9 initiates combat. Whoever initiated it goes first, and everyone else goes after him, even if they had a higher initiative.
Now, I roll initiatives every round, but even if you didn't, I'd keep the initial initiative roll and have everyone use their rolled initiative from round 2 forward.
I also give successful ambushers +10 init on the surprise round.
You're aware of the threat long before anyone else, absolutely. Question is, why aren't you sharing this with your party? You're not being cheated by someone else going first, because it's not a competitive game, its a cooperative one.
In the case you mention, where you've spotted/heard a group of orcs a long way off and decide to lob a fireball...why not take a free action and say "Psst, there's a whole bunch of Orcs right over...there. <boom>"
In this case, the way I see it is the fireball initiates the combat, and was a surprise round. If there's a diviner in the group, their spider sense tingles and they might even get to go first, but that doesn't mean they can do anything.
There's no real problem here at all.
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I would have to agree that with a +43 Perception you will be spotting creatures or the out of the ordinary a long way off. However, even the most perceptive people are going to out done by terrain and other situational factors.
Still, I would allow you to roll a Perception check and, if you let your party mates know, set up an ambush or response. Now, it has to be plausible for you to make the roll in the first place, but a GM should be playing with the players, not against them.
Your character is a Perception monster and should have a chance to shine.
The diviner wouldn't know what was up, only that something was.
He may just spend his surprise round looking at you with his eyes narrowed, but at least he won't be flat footed. (which is his class ability, of which he shouldn't be cheated)
I suppose it could be argued that the diviner saw that the sorcerer was about to lob a fireball and has quick enough reactions to resolve his action before the spell even finishes casting.
That would mean the sorcerer initiated combat, even though the diviner can choose to take an action first.
I don't know. What do you think the rules support?
It seems weird to me no matter how it gets done.
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You aren't getting cheated out of anything, the diviner is getting the benefit of his class ability, 'his spider sense is tingling'. You have lots of options without starting combat. As has been mentioned, the diviner knows "Something" is going to come down, but not what. If you intent to lob a fireball and want to keep the diviner in the dark then pass a note to the GM, the diviner is still in the dark.
There is also at least one Oracle revelation that gives you the ability to act in the surprise round, I don't recall what it is off the top of my head.
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It's magic divination, which is great, but not a +50 perception. If you notice, spider man almost always wastes his surprise round doing nothing but shouting "spider senses tingling."
I can see it now:
GM: You divine that something is amiss. What do you do?
Diviner: I ask the sorcerer what I'm missing.
:D
Talking IS a free action that can be taken out of turn after all. The above diviner may well have enough time to get a response from my sorcerer and act upon the new information.
I don't allow folks to talk out of turn while they are flat-footed. In a game I'm running, they'd have to delay until you could answer.
Technically, it would play out that the diviner's spider sense tingles before you even made the perception check, so your sorcerer wouldn't have an answer until his initiative comes up.
Though if you noticed from far enough away, your init could very easily be "I warn everyone to stop making noise, so we can ambush these turkeys". Then we drop out of combat, and y'all plan an angrier surprise round.
Or you show the parties where the enemies are by outlining them with fire. It would still pretty much be your show. The only advantage I give the diviner over you is "to not be flat-footed".
How are you getting your perception so high and what level are you?
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I can see it now:
GM: You divine that something is amiss. What do you do?
Diviner: I ask the sorcerer what I'm missing.:D
Talking IS a free action that can be taken out of turn after all. The above diviner may well have enough time to get a response from my sorcerer and act upon the new information.
Sure, sounds like a great plan. Then you can misdirect him.
How are you getting your perception so high and what level are you?
This was for a 15th-level empyreal sorcerer with 26 wisdom.
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15 ranks
08 wisdom modifier
06 skill focus feat
05 eyes of the eagle
04 alertness feat
03 class skill (due to the Cosmopolitan feat)
02 racial bonus (for being a kenku)
43 TOTAL MODIFIER
I could have had it at a +44 modifier with a trait (I took the Additional Traits feat as well), but I put the trait elsewhere. Investing in tomes or wishes could have made it higher as well, but I didn't think it worth the cost. Had I put ranks into Use Magic Device (or multiclassed) I could be using scrolls or wands of Acute Senses and elixers of vision to have a much larger bonus (if only for an hour or so).
If I REALLY wanted, the modifier could have been around +81 or so.
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Technically, it would play out that the diviner's spider sense tingles before you even made the perception check, so your sorcerer wouldn't have an answer until his initiative comes up.
This isn't right. His 'spider sense' won't tingle until combat is starting which isn't until RD's sorcerer decides to attack the enemy. If RD decided to not tell the party about the enemy they might bypass them entirely and the diviner would never be the wiser.
Technically, it would play out that the diviner's spider sense tingles before you even made the perception check, so your sorcerer wouldn't have an answer until his initiative comes up.This isn't right. His 'spider sense' won't tingle until combat is starting which isn't until RD's sorcerer decides to attack the enemy. If RD decided to not tell the party about the enemy they might bypass them entirely and the diviner would never be the wiser.
As much as I'd like to have spider senses when it comes to the player's actions, I gotta assume "sorcerer go kaboom", and give the diviner the benefit of the doubt.
Also, the foes might also get to act in the surprise round (you never know) so having him in the init every time doesn't give away the game.
Or the diviner could just delay and wait to see what happens, particularly if he knows his friend can hear the footfall of an ant the next state over.
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I have an empyreal sorcerer character with a +43 Perception modifier and the Eagle Eyes feat. That means, under normal conditions, he can hear a bow string being drawn from nearly 250 feet away without even needing to roll a check. If he rolls, on average, he will hear it from nearly 350 feet away.
He can hear the details of a conversation from over 250 feet distant, while sleeping behind a closed door, surrounded by party goers (severe conditions), and having lucid dreams (distracted), without needing to roll the dice.
Obviously, not much gets past his notice. Ever.
It is my belief that this character would and should get to go first in most encounters.
Say there are orc raiders in a forest readying a general ambush for any travelers that happen along the trail. My sorcerer will hear/spot them LONG before they hear/spot the party.
How do you handle this?
Do you roll initiative as normal and have a surprise round? That, I think, would cheat the person who invested in the super high perception. After all, why would his party mates or the orcs roll for initiative at all when they AREN'T EVEN AWARE of the coming situation?
That's why I think the sorcerer should go first in nearly every situation. He gets the privilege of initiating combat (perhaps by lobbing a fireball into yonder trees). Only then does everyone else become aware and roll initiative. There may or may not be a surprise round (likely the fireball WAS the surprise round), and everyone starts following the initiative order (with my sorcerer likely being in the middle somewhere due to his mediocre initiative).
I'm mostly looking for rules support to back up my interpretation, as I get the distinct impression my GM is going to start every encounter within 30-60 feet of the party out of laziness despite the fact that, that it should be RARE for anything to get that close without my character's knowledge.
In real life you would go first. The game still calls for initiative checks though so no, your high perception will not allow you to go first. It might get you a surprise round if you can notice the bad guys before they notice you. I also don't think investing in one mechanics should give you an advantage somewhere else. It is nice that you are so perceptive, but that is its own reward.
Maximum encounter distances.
Actually, I don't know that there is anything metagamey about the diviner acting before the sorcerer - his class bonus/ability is based on him seeing into the future, after all. So he's reacting before the sorcerer because he's had a moment of precognition that makes him aware of what the sorcerer perceives before the sorcerer actually perceives it.
It's not so much him acting more into how he acts.
If he senses something and drops a simple buff or whatnot its all cool.
If he suddenly wants to fireball whatever set him off different story.
The ability says he gets to act so I would allow him a standard action, but if he did not have a perception roll high enough to notice the enemy he just gets to go after the enemy in the surprise round. Once that is done initiative would be rolled.
The ability even says he might still be flat-footed which could mean he was not warned in time to respond.
Yeah he gets a turn he gets to do something but if he doesn't know what your about to fireball he can either
1.do like me and buff
2.Ready for something to appear
3.Hold and see what the sorcerer is about to do
4.just about anything based on what he knows at that moment.
The ability never says he get to go before the sorcerer.
You can always act in the surprise round even if you fail to make a Perception roll to notice a foe, but you are still considered flat-footed until you take an action. In addition, you receive a bonus on initiative checks equal to 1/2 your wizard level (minimum +1). At 20th level, anytime you roll initiative, assume the roll resulted in a natural 20.
It only says you get to act in the surprise round. You may get fireballed before you get to act in the surprise round.
Now if the GM has the wizard casting something to block the fireball I would not be happy about it as a player.
PS:Just making sure we are on the same page about the wizard automatically going first, assuming the wizard somehow loses initiative.
No he doesn't just get to super win however he does have the init bonus to help him super win quite often.
On a side note be afraid of diviners working with Sohei and the teamwork feat for init those full round surprise rounds can be tough.
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I'm not sure why the surprise round would be treated any different with the diviner.
Combat starts, roll initiative, act in initiative order. Adding that phrase about flat footed until they act is redundant, everyone is flat footed until they act. If the diviner acts before he is aware of where the threat is the player should act appropriately.
I'm kind of curious to see how this plays out in a game because I've never run a game with a diviner in it and I'm starting one now for PFS. It should be interesting to see how different GMs handle it.
My diviners call this the buff round. As in crap spider sense tingling........ don't see anything yet.........lets drop shield on my self/cast a scroll of haste to be safe.(I actually have taken to keeping a scroll of haste in hand just for when the party wanders up on an ambush or the ranger pulls a RD.
This is how i handle it just for a heads up man.
Or the diviner could just delay and wait to see what happens, particularly if he knows his friend can hear the footfall of an ant the next state over.
Quite sensible, and logically the best course of action for him to take, I think.
Actually, I don't know that there is anything metagamey about the diviner acting before the sorcerer - his class bonus/ability is based on him seeing into the future, after all. So he's reacting before the sorcerer because he's had a moment of precognition that makes him aware of what the sorcerer perceives before the sorcerer actually perceives it.
I thought that too, but if he suddenly launches his own fireball or similar dramatic action to affect the orcs, he will not only have changed the future (creating a temporal causality loop), but he would also be acting on knowledge he shouldn't have. That would upset me if I were the sorcerer/scout. He literally stole my glory, and couldn't have done so if I hadn't decided to initiate combat.
The ability says he gets to act so I would allow him a standard action, but if he did not have a perception roll high enough to notice the enemy he just gets to go after the enemy in the surprise round. Once that is done initiative would be rolled.
The ability even says he might still be flat-footed which could mean he was not warned in time to respond.
It's my understanding of the rules that, once combat begins in any form, EVERYONE rolls initiative even if they are unaware. It may not make much difference right away since most will be unable to act, but the rules don't seem to indicate that you can have a surprise round and then roll initiative (besides, certain abilities may effect other characters, like the above-mentioned teamwork feats).
I do agree that everyone rolls initiative even in the surprise round.
I changed my stance later or at least I thought I did. If I didn't then I am doing so now. :)
I do agree that everyone rolls initiative even in the surprise round.
I changed my stance later or at least I thought I did. If I didn't then I am doing so now. :)
I hope you mean "Everyone rolls init, but only those that are aware of the threat get to go on their turn. Everyone else remains flat-footed until the first regular round."
Everyone rolls initiative, but all except those who did perception checks and those with according feats stay flat footed untill they acted in the first regular round.
As a GM i had a player with a cleric once who had a similar perception.
He had similar intentions like you.
What i did:
-you only know there is something or maybe someone, you don´t know what it is or who. No race, maybe not even number, could be anything.
-you could do knowledge checks, but its hard.
-you also don´t know there is an ambush. Line of sight is counted according to terrain. If you have line of sight to an ambush site, its no ambush. In most terrains sight on this scale is obscured, trees, etc.
-worst, you are aware of everything within your perception radius, there could and probably is much more going on. How do you differ? I would grant you knowledge checks :)
-I bet you also don´t spend your time actively searching and focussing your concentration on a specific spot all the time.
There is some stuff that is legal but breaking the game for the GM and im pretty sure you know that RD. Especially perception is one of those. We had a problem with the cleric of freedom liberation aura too.
By RAW you would be aware of them and get your surprise round, but i would let you walk into the ambush and set it so you cannot (p)react to everything. RAW is absolutely on your side, you will probably always be aware and able to act in the surprise round. But you will not always know there is an ambush, because of simple logic applied to the perception skill and surroundings. Like if they are talking in orcish, do you understand it? (Assuming everyone speaks common hampers roleplay fun heavily!) Or some other language? Would you recognize a good site for an ambush (intelligence check maybe)?
Even if you are aware of them, you have to see them as a threat and either track them concentrated or do something hostile that starts combat, only then is initiative rolled. This way the surprise round could maybe just crackle away because of distance.
-you only know there is something or maybe someone, you don´t know what it is or who. No race, maybe not even number, could be anything.
People tend to recognize familiar sounds like people recognize familiar site. This must be especially true for someone who has actively trained and magically augmented his senses all his life. Are you saying I could not recognize the sound of a man clunking around in his chainmail, versus someone who is naked, in leather, or plate?
-you could do knowledge checks, but its hard.
Making a knowledge check with a circumstance penalty to identify or learn about something you are only getting partial sensory input on (like sound or smell, but not sight) seems absolutely fair and justifiable to me.
-you also don´t know there is an ambush. Line of sight is counted according to terrain. If you have line of sight to an ambush site, its no ambush. In most terrains sight on this scale is obscured, trees, etc.
Line of SIGHT prevents sight. One could still hear, smell, or otherwise "sense" the ambush. The GM would be absolutely within his right to rule that the situation would qualify as terrible conditions (-5 Perception check penalty), however.
-worst, you are aware of everything within your perception radius, there could and probably is much more going on. How do you differ? I would grant you knowledge checks :)
I think it should be automatic for sounds or smells I've encountered before. For the most part though, I agree with your ruling.
-I bet you also don´t spend your time actively searching and focussing your concentration on a specific spot all the time.
I dunno about that. One doesn't get their senses so well attuned unless they are profoundly paranoid. I could totally see myself calling a few manual Perception checks before entering a dangerous looking place such as a canyon, cave, or dark forest.
We had a problem with the cleric of freedom liberation aura too.
You have the ability to ignore impediments to your mobility. For a number of rounds per day equal to your cleric level, you can move normally regardless of magical effects that impede movement, as if you were affected by freedom of movement. This effect occurs automatically as soon as it applies. These rounds do not need to be consecutive.
The aura only protects against MAGICAL effects that impede movement. Nets, tanglefoot bags, grappling, grab, constrict, swallow whole all work normally. This is something one of my players (knowingly?) missed a lot. Might that be the case in your games too?
By RAW you would be aware of them and get your surprise round, but i would let you walk into the ambush and set it so you cannot (p)react to everything.
Why would I walk into it if I knew it was there?
RAW is absolutely on your side, you will probably always be aware and able to act in the surprise round. But you will not always know there is an ambush, because of simple logic applied to the perception skill and surroundings. Like if they are talking in orcish, do you understand it? (Assuming everyone speaks common hampers roleplay fun heavily!) Or some other language? Would you recognize a good site for an ambush (intelligence check maybe)?
I like to think people have some ability to identify languages even when they can't speak them (with an easy intelligence/linguistics check perhaps?). I can tell the difference between French, German, Japanese, Latin, Mandarin, and Spanish even though I only speak and understand English. I find that most people in real life have similar ability to identify languages, so shouldn't the often lingual heroes of the roleplaying world have similar, if not better ability to do so?
Even if you are aware of them, you have to see them as a threat and either track them concentrated or do something hostile that starts combat, only then is initiative rolled. This way the surprise round could maybe just crackle away because of distance.
If I'm walking along the road and I detect a group of humanoids hiding in the brush off of the trail, it's a safe bet that its bandits or other ne'er do wells.
Just one consideration.
You have to beat a stealth check with your perception check. (43 vs 20-ish)
The enemy have to beat your group stealth check (at most the lowest of the group) with his perception check. (20-ish vs -5/0 due to paladins/fighters)
Unless you have a stealthy party the enemy still notice you first in most cases.
Unless you have a stealthy party the enemy still notice you first in most cases.
You really think so?
I suppose it doesn't matter much. Starting combat at 200 feet is still better than 30 feet, regardless of who is or isn't aware.
The thing that you need to think about is a diviner at 15th level has had his spider sense ability for years and will have a set method thought up for acting upon it, weather is throw out a buff or just get the hell away from the aoe magnet that is his friends.
Personally my diviner would probably spend his first round casting some kind of sphere (resiliant, telekinetic or prismatic) and then see what came at him.
If there was a diviner who was often near me i'd also have lookout to take advantage of him, if you spend years hanging around with a guy who has a sixth sense for danger then you bloody well listen to him.
The diviner is a rare exception.
RD what i mean is, you can surely identify a lot of stuff with your senses by RAW. It doesn´t make sense in many cases though. I would say sight is the most important perception. Then listening and after that smell. The important thing is, that you would have to specifically concentrate on a spot. Else you "sense" a million impressions in a circle around you and you have to shot them down in order not to get crazy. Grass growing is already a noise for you ... just think of all the birds and animals and peasants and who knows what lurking around.
People tend to recognize familiar sounds like people recognize familiar site. This must be especially true for someone who has actively trained and magically augmented his senses all his life. Are you saying I could not recognize the sound of a man clunking around in his chainmail, versus someone who is naked, in leather, or plate?
Are you sure with that? Come on, sensing by smell or hearing if someone is naked or wearing clothes over such a distance is ridiculous. Metal clunking is something different. Probably you can hear it. perception doesn´t state you can hear specific sounds and identify them though. I.e. you can hear a key turned in a lock, but thats only a sound and sounds can differ. Hearing the orcs talking on that ambush and clanking around there from miles away would include a lot of different sounds too you hear all the time, even the conversation the local clerics daughter is having with the millers son in the haybarn nearby, what is probably way more interesting. If you decide to play your character paranoid, there should be a lot of downsides too.
Before we argue here forever, because of my own experience as a GM and a player i suggest you find a compromise with your GM, that honors your skill, but doesn´t break the game and leaves your GM enough oportunities to get the story and action on so it stays some fun.
Our cleric had the ability to deny all confused, grappled, frightened, panicked, paralyzed, pinned, or shaken conditions at level 8, combined with a ungodly healing capacity, skyhigh perception and some buffs. Attack was +1 though, making 1 point damage. Besides that the player was a general nuisance roleplaying the sausage eating addiction of his character excessively and having little patience when it wasn´t his turn. Unfortunately he ended up being nauseated or sickened a lot, because i had to rewrite half of the adventure because of him, he succesfully destroyed most of the story arcs in realm of the fellnight queen. The end was pretty bad too, because a buffed barbarian just destroyed a whole tower, but thats another barrel i don´t want to open here.
It is my belief that this character would and should get to go first in most encounters.
Your character should be warning his companions about the danger before hand so he's not the only one going in the surprise round.
Dare I ask how your perception score got that high?
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Just one consideration.
You have to beat a stealth check with your perception check. (43 vs 20-ish)
The enemy have to beat your group stealth check (at most the lowest of the group) with his perception check. (20-ish vs -5/0 due to paladins/fighters)Unless you have a stealthy party the enemy still notice you first in most cases.
I agree with CrysKnife.
Remember that if you and your group are Min/Maxing to this level, the GM will need to also just to make the game interesting, (unless your just paying a Monte Hall game of I walk over everything and we dont really roll anymore). In my group when a person starts to metagame the system or thinks they find a way to gain advantages, the NPCs also Min/Max. So they have +45 to stealth and you hear and see nothing because they are just as good as you. Yes, they trained just as hard, maybe harder, and are at your level (or higher) with magic items and just as much ability to get and gain advantages. Thay also hit just as hard and are just as hard to hit. This keeps our group from just walking into everything thinking they will make it out without any implications. Their diviner even knows your abilities so they block them and know ahead of time where you will first see them, maybe they plan for you to see them at that spot and have things prepared for you at that spot, waiting for you to spring the trap on yourself.
Hayato Ken: Yeah, I ran my players through the Fellnight Queen. The party shadowdancer ended up marrying the b#+#! and helping to facilitate her invasion of the material realm in exchange for her and her minions sparing their home village and all those within.
Mission success...sort of.
Zulfer: That's insane. I would never play with a GM like that. GMs ARE supposed to challenge their players, but when the party starts regularly encountering super ninja stealth super stars just cause I have a high perception of fire immune creatures because I have a fire sorcerer, then their is no point in really playing anymore. All the fun has been taken away. What's the point in trying to be powerful if your GM won't let you enjoy it every once in a while? What's the point in leveling up if you don't get to single-handedly wipe out a small army of mooks on occasion? If everything is your counter, than nothing is exciting anymore.
This isn't a competitive game, not even between players and GMs. Those who believe in an adversarial relationship are likely those don't have many long, worthwhile games.
I think Zulfer's point was to negate auto-wins not to always trump a player's hard work at making a PC.