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@Sangalor - So you are saying; in cave in complete darkness HiPS works against foes with Darkvision?
@ Sunbeam - In your example of the light stone I would think that as long as something is there casting a shadow the Shadowdancer would be able to HiPS from a foe with Darkvision.
This is what i'm thinking of ruling on the matter as the GM: In complete darkness it does not work against Darkvision; however if there is a light source and something is there to cast a shadow from the light then it would work.
@ Azoun The Sage: How does HIPS work? talk to your GM. Stealth is a mess so is HIPS.
@ Sunbeam: I never said the class was intended to suck and suck hard. But I do think it does suck. As you put it: "You are just handicapping yourself if you take more than 4 levels in it max."...but hey, if people like it. Good for them.
@ Azoun The Sage and @ Sunbeam: Darkvision doesn't negate HIPS. He is not hiding in the shadows because it is dark in the shadows, he is hiding in the shadows be because they are shadows. HE is one with the shadows, Bla bla. I've read it in other threads. It's not a matter of people not being able to see in the dark.
@Sangalor - So you are saying; in cave in complete darkness HiPS works against foes with Darkvision?
@ Sunbeam - In your example of the light stone I would think that as long as something is there casting a shadow the Shadowdancer would be able to HiPS from a foe with Darkvision.
This is what i'm thinking of ruling on the matter as the GM: In complete darkness it does not work against Darkvision; however if there is a light source and something is there to cast a shadow from the light then it would work.
Geometry is the key here. If the cave is just empty and dark and the spotter's darkvision covers all of it, you cannot hide. Once hidden you can walk through the cave though, as usual :-)
Scrap that, it works. After all, it says hide in plain sight. Hm...
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@ Zark - I am the GM; I'm just trying to fully look at the ability so I have the correct or welcome answers to my player.
@ Azoun The Sage and @ Sunbeam: Darkvision doesn't negate HIPS. He is not hiding in the shadows because it is dark in the shadows, he is hiding in the shadows be because they are shadows. HE is one with the shadows, Bla bla. I've read it in other threads. It's not a matter of people not being able to see in the dark.
So he still requires a shadow to hide then? Of which it can't be his own.
@ Sanagalor -
Scrap that, it works. After all, it says hide in plain sight. Hm...
Exactly, it says Hide in Plain Sight...however are we to interpret that as being able to hide in the middle of a field, with low grass (say a few inches high) during the day and nothing else around?
It's my understanding he needs a shadow, of which it can't be his own, to be able to hide in plain sight. I'm fine with there being a light source and shadows present and with this ability not allowing Darkvision to see him.
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This is hard to follow so I might be repeating what's been said, but here is an example:
Party is in an area of dim light, for example, a cave lit by torches. Dim light will be found at the far reaches of the torch's light radius.
The shadowdancer can HIPS because there is dim light here.
A character with darkvision in this area cannot automatically perceive the shadowdancer for not one but two reasons -
1. The shadowdancer is HIDING, with the Stealth skill. He is not "cloaked in darkness." The only way to see someone using the Stealth skill is making a Perception check that beats the shadowdancer's stealth.
2. The entire area has light in it (including the dim light in which the shadowdancer is hiding). Darkvision does not kick in except in total darkness.
In an area of total darkness, the guy with Darkvision can see fine, but the shadowdancer can't actually use HIPS because there's no dim light (it's all total darkness). The shadowdancer can of course still use Stealth normally if he finds an opportunity, and the guy with Darkvision will of course not get anything but the normal Perception check to perceive the shadowdancer, because there is nothing in Darkvision that says it allows you to bypass making Perception checks to beat Stealth.
And while I'm here--it's an important thing to note that Stealth and invisibility are NOT the same things. The only difference between HIPS and normal Stealth checks is that someone with HIPS can make Stealth checks more often, in unusual places. HIPS users should not get any bonuses to attacks as with invisibility, etc. etc.
As an aside, the real problem with the Stealth and lighting rules, and by extension a lot of the Shadowdancer class, is that it depends on the GM to understand some complex environment rules and constantly make calls about what kind of lighting is in a place, which is boring and annoying. It also puts the Shadowdancer and other HIPS users constantly at the GM's mercy and hope they allow the circumstances for their class abilities to be used.
I did 4 level dip into Shadow Dancer with an Inquisitor. You have very roguish set of skill and 6 skill points. Adding evasion, darksight, uncanny dodge, and rogues talent fit well with my Inquisitor or Mask in a Forgotten Realms game. The Shadow, Shadow Jump 40' and shadow call had uses.
For what it's worth, I once did an in-depth analysis of stealth, lighting, and Hide in Plain Sight.
My Witch with a one-level Shadowdancer dip was fun to play, but certainly not optimized.
If Darkvision isn't affected by normal light, what dimly lit areas are going to exist in the range of my Darkvision?
Saying an area is "dimly lit" always refers to normal human vision. It is a quality of the area, just like "difficult terrain" or "violent motion".
A character with Darkvision can see that area well. But that does not change the area's quality.
Similarly, some characters can move through difficult terrain without problem, and others take no penalty to concentration checks on a vehicle in violent motion. Yet those five-by-five map squares remain "difficult terrain" or "violent motion".
The tricky thing about HiPS is that it is magic. It does not work like camouflage. It does not work like a Ghillie suit. It's magic that uses dim light instead of a spell component pouch. Observers with Darkvision do not interfere with the magic in exactly the same way Darkvision does not provide protection from Magic Missile. Magic has its effects unless other magic interferes.
Also explain something to me.
If Darkvision isn't affected by normal light, what dimly lit areas are going to exist in the range of my Darkvision?
I'm not tallking about "flashlight beams," as in your guide. I have always assumed that Darkvision let you see what was in dark areas. Say there is a grotto in a wall that is dimly lit by torches from a hallway. This grotto qualifies as dimly lit for someone with normal vision. For someone with Darkvision it would be like it were lit by torches, though only in black and white.
Looking at the definition of HiPS, darkvision and the stealth skill again I would conclude the following:
1. Darkvision has a limited range. So everything that darkvision negates is only up to that range.2. Darkvison negates concealment according to dim light.
3. Creatures with darkvision can still see within normal light.
4. Stealth states
If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Stealth check if you can get to an unobserved place of some kind. This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.5. Vision and light chapter states
In an area of dim light, a character can see somewhat. Creatures within this area have concealment (20% miss chance in combat) from those without darkvision or the ability to see in darkness. A creature within an area of dim light can make a Stealth check to conceal itself. Areas of dim light include outside at night with a moon in the sky, bright starlight, and the area between 20 and 40 feet from a torch.6. HiPS states
A shadowdancer can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of an area of dim light, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.
.
With those statements I deduce that the benefits are
1. You cannot hide from creatures with darkvision due to dim light if you are within their darkvision range. You can still hide due to geometry.
2. For other creatures observing depending on sight due to light: SD HiPS allows to use stealth within 10 feet of dim light, you do not have to be within dim light. This can be very useful.
3. If creatures have something like tremorsense, blindsense or blindsight, HiPS is probably not going to do you much good.
4. One should remember that you can influence light conditions yourself, e.g. with shades of large creatures, darkness spells, removing or covering light sources, creating obstacles etc., so it is not bad.
The ability is nice though inferior to the camouflage ability of the ranger (which on the other hand is limited to his terrains). In many situations you will probably be able to benefit from it, just not against any type of creature or in any situation, so that is fine for me :-)
1. The shadowdancer is HIDING, with the Stealth skill. He is not "cloaked in darkness." The only way to see someone using the Stealth skill is making a Perception check that beats the shadowdancer's stealth.
Then why did they have this line in the Shadowdancer HIPS blurb?
"She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow."
Is that another way, in your opinion of stating this? Is it an artifact cut and pasted from the 3.x Prestige class?
As my best guess, yes, I think it is an artifact from the original version. Compare:
Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.
Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A shadowdancer can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of an area of dim light, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.
Basically, Pathfinder left in the last sentence even though it's not relevant anymore, since the ability now doesn't require "some sort of shadow."
2. The entire area has light in it (including the dim light in which the shadowdancer is hiding). Darkvision does not kick in except in total darkness.
From the Darkvision description:
"The presence of light does not spoil darkvision."
Whoops, fair enough. Had a GM that didn't play it that way and got confused. However, I think it's kind of a moot point; see below.
In an area of total darkness, the guy with Darkvision can see fine, but the shadowdancer can't actually use HIPS because there's no dim light (it's all total darkness). The shadowdancer can of course still use Stealth normally if he finds an opportunity, and the guy with Darkvision will of course not get anything but the normal Perception check to perceive the shadowdancer, because there is nothing in Darkvision that says it allows you to bypass making Perception checks to beat Stealth.
Maybe. What I am trying to say is that it reads to me that if you have Darkvision, there are no shadows, or indeed any area of "dim light."
1) Basically if your opponent has darkvision, there are no shadows if you are "wrapping yourself in shadow."
or
2) The condition "dim light" isn't there, due to your opponent having darkvision, to fulfill the condition for you to attempt to HIPS.
Especially since it is an opposed check.
I look at it differently.
In my opinion, it is the Shadowdancer, and not the observer, that needs the condition of dim light to activate the HIPS ability. It is a supernatural ability otherwise, and as long as the conditions are met for the shadowdancer to use this mystical power, he can do so. The conditions are met, he activates the supernatural ability, and then makes his Stealth check. (See also what Davidvs said above)
And once he makes his Stealth check, an observer with Darkvision still needs to make the Perception check to notice him, just like everyone else.
While we're picking lines from the Darkvision we also have this:
It does not allow characters to see anything that they could not see otherwise—invisible objects are still invisible, and illusions are still visible as what they seem to be.
HIPS, being a supernatural ability, I would say qualifies in the same category as something along the lines of an illusion (especially based on the other abilities a shadowdancer has).
I'd also note that if Darkvision can start to see past HIPS, it opens a GIANT can of worms--what kind of other Stealth attempts Darkvision can see past? Can Darkvision can ignore all kinds of forms of concealment? And so on, and I really don't think Darkvision was meant to be so powerful. And moreover, I really don't think they'd design a Prestige Class with a major feature that could be bypassed by half the core races at level 1.
At BEST, were I forced to compromise on the issue in a game I was playing, I might say creatures with Darkvision get a bonus to Perception to notice a HIPS-ing Shadowdancer, but that's about it.
We can of course continue to disagree. I somehow doubt we will end up at the same table together. :)
If what you say is true, HIPS still has some uses. But if you don't get any attack bonuses or qualify for sneak attack, it really isn't worth even bothering to take a one level dip in this class.
And while I'm here--it's an important thing to note that Stealth and invisibility are NOT the same things. (snipe)
What a clever shadowdancer does is use HIPS to hide where he can't, then ambush a foe in surprise. They then are flat-footed to his attacks because they are surprised, and THAT's how he gets sneak attack damage off. From there on, he has to resort to other tricks to keep sneak attacking (flanking and feinting), but it's a great opening gambit.
The other use for HIPS in combat is to "disappear" when you're wounded to make a getaway.
Otherwise it's largely more valuable as an out of combat skill, particularly for scouting or for accompanying an ally who wants to appear "alone."
Especially since you will have to make numerous HIPS checks unlike invisibility, and you may come to an area that doesn't meet your HIPS requirements. (Totally Dark or very well lit. Or open space in the Daytime).
But on the flip side of the coin, Stealth and therefore HIPS cannot be defeated by see invisibility, glitterdust, or true seeing. All three EXTREMELY common spells to run into from early levels through high levels. I ran a very high level game where I had monsters with those abilities but who couldn't get high enough Perception rolls to see the shadowdancer. That is potentially VERY powerful.
It's a niche class certainly, and I actually agree that a lot of the abilities are in fact underpowered (or vague). But having seen--in two consecutive campaigns that were two years long each--a shadowdancer milk HIPS and other shadowdancer abilities to extraordinarily good effect, I'm not going to say they're useless because I've seen in practice, frequently, that is simply not true.
I'd love to hear your experiences about shadowdancers you've seen at the table.
Heck the HIPS ability is useless to do the Batman disappearing act.
Say you have 4 or 5 people around you, and you somehow meet the HIPS requirements.
What are the odds one of them won't beat your opposed stealth check?
Just ruins the mystery.
"What happened? Where did he go?"
"You didn't see it? He just kinda hunched over with his hands held by his head like he was a cat, and tiptoed at half speed around the corner. Darnedest thing I ever saw."
"After him!"
You can get ridiculous stealth(or any other skill) checks if you focus on it. The GM would have to create optimized perception based characters just to be able to not lose track of you.
or something with blindsight or any of the other equivalent abilities.
You think Hide in Plain Sight is simply someone who is really good at hiding in shadows? No my friend, it's supernatural!
I just looked at the shadow dancer again. The more I look at it, the better I find it. Some thoughts:
- You *can* summon the shadow, you do not have to. So if that is not your thing, just don't do it.
- Hide in Plain Sight - you will not always encounter darkvision creatures and not have any concealment. And you do not need to maximize the stealth skill, just be good enough to get away if necessary. Focusing on stealth is one way, but not the only one.
- Though not limited to it, the most interesting use seems to be for those classes and races that do not already have a lot of the features and seek to extend it somehow. Like a human fighter.
- Evasion and improved evasion. Cool! Only monk gets that I believe. If you take a class like figher unbreakable or inquisitor, you get to shake off any kind of effect if you make the save.
- Uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge - useful abilities. I take them.
- Rogue talents - there are lots of them, many quite useful. You can take feats, minor/major magic etc.
- Shadow illusion seems to be quite useful. I always liked the spells it mimics.
- Shadow conjuration and shadow evocation? Awesome! This opens up a lot of possibilites, especially since it's - like other abilities - spell-like and thus does not draw attention, can be done while bound, while wearing armor etc.
- Defensive roll just increases your survivability, so I take it.
- Slippery mind - cool again, especially for classes that do not already have great saves in that area.
- The capstone at level 10 is really cool. Provided you are in dim light: DR 10/-? +2 luck bonus on all saving throws, which basically stacks with everything? Blind foes on critical hits without a save on a critical?
- The shadow jump is great. Hit and run techniques, escaping a grapple etc. - very versatile and helpful.
- Lots of skills. Useful.
- You may gain some useful armor and weapon proficiencies.
- You can take feats to increase the DCs of your shadow powers.
- Depending on what you want, pretty much any kind of level-dip (1,2,3,...) provides something useful for you.
I think this is a prestige class that was designed to offer a lots of options and increase versatility. Though I could also see it for some casters or half-casters, non-magical classes searching for some additional flexibility and abilities - like fighters - could profit from it greatly. I especially see multiple-class-dipping characters taking this as a natural extension.
It seems a bit to me like the pathfinder chronicler, a bard of prestige classes: You gain a bit of many things and go for different routes, but the focus is not entirely clear.
I am starting to like the class :-)
Seeing as this thread seems to be about the Shadow Dancer...
How does everyone rule Hide in Plain Sight?
I have a player who is taking this PrC, gotten this specific ability, and has a rogue character built on hiding and sniping.
Anyway, I know that Stealth does not stop Darkvision (i.e. you are invisibile). He interprets HiPS as being invisible. I'd give him the normal stealth stuff if there was light and shadows he was hiding in. But lets say he is underground, in cave, with no light at all. A situation where Darkvision is key. Would HiPS allow him to hide from foes with Darkvision?
Thanks,
Well, the point is that HiPS (under the current RAW) does NOT make your foe lose his DEX, thus thus does not give Sneak attack. Of course, it could lead to flanking or a surpise round, with Sneak attack then, but "hidden" or Stealth does NOT (under the current RAW) make your foe lose his DEX.
Read the blog linked to up a ways, you will read soem interesting stuff in not only how the rules are NOW, but how they may change them.
Dr.Deth stealth does make you lose dex by RAW. I figured it out a few days ago. I can provide a link if you like. As of now everyone is agreeing with me or at least nobody is disagreeing with me.
Dr.Deth stealth does make you lose dex by RAW. I figured it out a few days ago. I can provide a link if you like. As of now everyone is agreeing with me or at least nobody is disagreeing with me.
Read the blog. The blog is quite clear in that they have suggested a rule change to make it so. It is currently not that way. Now sure, many use it as a houserule, but not in PFS or in my games.
The blog does not say that. If it does nobody can provide the quote for it. I even thought that was the case myself until I could find the quote. The blog is suggesting making it easier to use stealth. It is not a houserule to say stealth can allow you to sneak attack.
RAW you can sneak attack with stealth.
I gave four supporting quotes in the link.
I do agree, and this is not the only situation where you have to search across 3(not being exact) chapters to find out how something works. It does get annoying when you to reference so many things to get one ruling. The community has had to do it for many rules issues.
That information in the perception skill about being unaware should have been in the stealth skill area IMHO. It could also have been in the armor class area in the combat chapter.
It is a problem of inheritance from 3.5 though, and not wanting to repeat text 2 or 3 times to save word space since every time something is repeated it takes up space that could have went to something else. I don't think the information was needed in the dex area myself, but I do understand why it was there.
Back to the original topic:
I am currently playing a Paladin who's going to aim for Shadowdancer as part of her build.
I plan on going to Paladin 5, and 4 level dip in Shadowdancer. Not certain if I'll switch back to Paladin or go to Shadowdancer for the rest of her levels.
She's currently at Paladin 4.
Back to the original topic:
I am currently playing a Paladin who's going to aim for Shadowdancer as part of her build.
I plan on going to Paladin 5, and 4 level dip in Shadowdancer. Not certain if I'll switch back to Paladin or go to Shadowdancer for the rest of her levels.
She's currently at Paladin 4.
Shadowdancer really synergizes well with the paladin. It has good Reflex saves and lots of skills and skill points, so you will have excellent saves. With a couple levels of shadowdancer, you gain darkvision, evasion, and uncanny dodge. So your defensive capabilities increase even more.
And since the paladin can already tank, face, and heal, you'll become even more versatile.
[In my opinion, it is the Shadowdancer, and not the observer, that needs the condition of dim light to activate the HIPS ability. It is a supernatural ability otherwise, and as long as the conditions are met for the shadowdancer to use this mystical power, he can do so. The conditions are met, he activates the supernatural ability, and then makes his Stealth check. (See also what Davidvs said above)
+1
HIPS has actually some exceptions to the stealth rules. The SD does not need any cover/concealment to use stealth when using HIPS.As for "HIPS cannot be defeated by see invisibility, glitterdust, or true seeing", well glitterdust makes stealth checks very difficult.
Last not (?) on HIPS vs Darkvison.
People confuse the lighting conditions and the effects of those conditions on observers.
A room can be brightly lit, but if a creature is blind then they still can't see. Likewise a room can be in darkness but a creature with darkvision can still see in there.
Neither changes the lighting levels. Darkvision does not supply light in any way, shape or form. Creatures with darkvision do not have light streaming out from their eyes!
Darkvision has nothing to do with either hellcat stealth or hide in plain sight. Both abilities revolve around the actual lighting conditions and not around how those conditions affect observers.
@ AdAstraGames: True, lets Back to the original topic.
Why do you want 4 levels, and are you aware that Pharasma and her followers hate the undead. Using summon shadow could make you lose your Paladin powers or at least your spells. I know the Shadow will be LG but it will still be an undead.Pharasma from the wiki
"Her followers view the undead with hatred and consider them a great abomination. They view putting the undead to rest as a holy duty. The creation of undead is outlawed, and commanding undestroyed undead is not much liked either."
My bold.
If you GM is cool with a Paladin summoning a Shadow, fine. I would not be cool with it. Especially if we are talking about a Paladin of Pharasma or Iomedae.
Anyway, I can see how 1 or 2 levels SD might work, but 3 or 4? Why?
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I refluffed Shadows summoned in my world by Shadowdancers to be creatures from the Plane of Shadow. They are "negative energy creatures"--meaning the rules that qualify for undead qualify for them (i.e., no mechanical changes), but they are not lost souls that haven't been laid to rest or anything like that.
Which I think might have been the intention anyway. There's no necromantic flavor to the Shadowdancer.
Edit:
@sunbeam: Because the Shadow is an undead creature. It takes damage from positive energy such as Channeling and cure spells, but if the DM is fine with it, then all is well.
@Sangalor: I'm glad you like the class. I don't. I'm gonna respond to your statements, but I'm not saying you shouldn't or couldn't like the class. I'm just going to share my view on the matter to you and other readers.
Summon shadow is indeed nice, but not as good as most people think. Still why pick 3 levels SD if you are not going to use it. If one like pets, check out the spell casting classes. Most of them can summon stuff and have a pet. With Eldritch Heritage you can even get a familiar.
Or play a 3/4 class that cast spells and can summon stuff. Why not Bard or the bard archetype the ARCHAEOLOGIST.
Edit:
HIPS is nice. Very nice, but the rules are messy. Stealth is pretty much an integrated theme in this PrC, but no you don't have to have silly high dex and max stealth. That said there is no " be good enough to get away if necessary". Either you make the stealth check or you don't. As you said: "Focusing on stealth is one way, but not the only one", using spells or other kind of magic are other ways. Anyway, with Eldritch Heritage you can get HIPS. Or you could just cast vanish or invisibility or greater invisibility. Just like a bard or a like the archaeologist or the Inquisitor. Still, HIPS is very good if you want to to be a scout.
BTW, Darkvision and concealment has nothing to do with HIPS, as has been pointed out in dozens of threads already.
I agree and I don't agree. Why would a str based fighter pick 2 level SD? A swashbuckler fighter + SD could be cool, but loosing BAB is not so fun. I would rather pick some levels ranger or Duelist. If BAB had do go then I would perhaps pick some levels bard or Inquisitor.
But sure, if you just want darkvision and want to play a human and not using magic, 2 levels and you got darkvision.
As for: " the most interesting use seems to be for those classes and races that do not already have a lot of the features and seek to extend it somehow".
That argument could be used for any class or PrC. really.
A lot of classes get evasion and it the ability is highly overrated, Improved evasion even more so. Dealing with Blast spells has never been a problem in Pathfinder or in 3.x.
You can only use Evasion it in light armor or no armor.
Monk, Rogue, Ninja, and even the Archaeologist get this. No big deal. Even rangers get this and they can use it in medium armor.
I'll take most things if they are for free. UD and IUD are nor for free. You have to take 5 levels SD to get them.
Uncanny dodge is indeed nice, improved uncanny dodge is OK but not fantastic. Also since IUD is based on your SD level it won't be good as if it is based on you character level. But they stack if you already got UD from another class . So that is nice. You can get UD by taking barbarian, rogue or ninja levels or play the Archaeologist.
Or get them via rogue or ninja levels, the ninja/rogue route also gives you advanced talents and SA and more skills and Ninja gives so much more cool stuff. Come to think of the Archaeologist also get rogue talents and advanced talents. And the Archaeologist is FAR more versatile, FAR more powerful and FAR more useful than the SD. I would go as far as saying the Archaeologist FAR more fun. Archaeologist with 1 level SD is all that it takes to be a better SD than the SD or Archaeologist with the Eldritch Heritage feat.
If you like it, use a wands or play a bard or the ARCHAEOLOGIST. If you don't like the idea of just plying Bard or Archaeologist, add some levels rogue or ninja or Paladin or SD.
Shadow conjuration and shadow evocation suck even if you are a full caster. It even suck if you are a 3/4 caster. So obviously it suck big time if you are not a caster (and pretend to be one). Better play a bard or a Archaeologist or a Magus.
BTW, the bard, magus, Inquisitor and the rest of the 3/4 BAB classes that cast spell get far better spells and abilities than Shadow conjuration and shadow evocation.
You can get this as an advanced talent, I haven't seen it in play that many times. Reason? It's not a whiz bang ability.
This is a good ability, but if you worry about your will saves there are better things to do. This can also be picked as a advanced rogue talent, so rogues, Ninjas and Archaeologist can pick this one too.
Capstone is far from excellent. SD 10. You are at least level 15.
+2 luck bonus only in dim light. I don't call +2 luck bonus first-rate. It does not stack with everything. I won't stack with other luck bonuses.
DR 10/ is good, but you only get in dim light and this is your Capstone.
Blind foes on critical hits without a save on a critical? At level 15 most classes have FAR more powerful spells or/and abilities. Since you have a crappy attack bonus you won't crit that often anyway and the foe must be in dim light.
You can't actually hit and use the ability.
As for teleporting effects, a wand, Ring of spell storing or any spellcaster with the right spells can do this to. Even a cleric (travel domain) can do this and the cleric ability is actually better. There are also cleric archetypes that grant you more skill points per level. Or an Inquisitor with the travel domain.
Spells? Jester’s Jaunt and Dimension Door can both help you out. BTW, Both spells are on bard list and thus on the Archaeologist's list.
Yes, a lot of other classes have lot of skill points and some have even better class skills.
Bard, Inquisitor, Rogue, Ninja, Archaeologist, etc.
Most don't. Exceptions would be Wizards or Sorcerers. I see no reason why the a full caster would pick 10 levels or any level SD?
You know, That is not a smart move. You are not spell caster, if you don't want to drop the flavor of the class, why not play an Archaeologist's or any spell casting class with 3/4 BAB. One or two levels SD and the rest bard or Archaeologist.
Here we do agree. Dip 1 - 4 can be useful, but I would not pick more than 1 maximum 2 levels SD. But whenever you gain something from a level of SD, you also lose stuff from that other class you could have level up in.
But honestly, " Depending on what you want, pretty much any kind of level-dip (1,2,3,...) IN ANY CLASS provides something useful for you.
Wraithstrike posted the links to the two blogs up thread a bit. Yes, you have to read the entire blog (but not all the posts, just the designers Blog) and they admit that they have proposed these new rules on stealth etc to allow Stealth getting SA.
I am going to cut & paste a few sections:
"Speaking of hidden, while we have kept the invisible condition, and have even strengthened the wording on that condition a bit, we have also created a lesser, connected condition called hidden. You gain the hidden condition when you benefit from Stealth..." "Conditions
Hidden: You are difficult to detect but you not invisible. A hidden creature gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against sighted opponents, and ignores its opponents' Dexterity bonus to AC (if any)....."Indeed you are right but even in 3.5= "The rules don’t come right out and say this," but they FAQed it there. In PF Stealth and Perception are different skills. You can houserule it if you like, but the designers have made it very clear it is not RAW currently.
There's no condition currently called Hidden and under current PF RAW only Invisible make foes lose their DEX.
My current DM does not allow it. Nor do they allow it in the PFS games.
You should check surprise rules. The hidden character is aware, the victim not (assuming doesn't pass the perception check).
Hidden character gain a bonus surprise round (he can take a standard action). Victim is flat footed. Attacker doesn't get +2 bonus on hit, but victim loose dex bonus. Then there's the initiative roll. If victim is after the attacker is still flat footed, so sneak attack is permitted again.
Sure, like I said, stealth can give a surprise attack, or you can sneak to a flank. But all by itself, it doesn;t make your foe lose his dex.
I think there's a misunderstanding.
If you are not aware of an attack you loose the dex bonus. If someone is hidden and you don't reach the DC for perception check you will loose dex against his attack. First during the surprise round, then until your next action. For better clarification core rulebook, p 178. You should show your GM the part "unaware combatants", it's pretty clear.
Read the Devs blog (but not all the posts, just the designers Blog) and they admit that they have proposed these new rules on stealth etc to allow Stealth getting SA.
http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/2011/september/v5748dyo5lcml?Stealth-Playtest-R ound-TwoUniversal-Monster
I am going to cut & paste a few sections:
"Speaking of hidden, while we have kept the invisible condition, and have even strengthened the wording on that condition a bit, we have also created a lesser, connected condition called hidden. You gain the hidden condition when you benefit from Stealth..." "Conditions
Hidden: You are difficult to detect but you not invisible. A hidden creature gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against sighted opponents, and ignores its opponents' Dexterity bonus to AC (if any)....."
Indeed you are right but even in 3.5= "The rules don’t come right out and say this," but they FAQed it there. In PF Stealth and Perception are different skills. You can houserule it if you like, but the designers have made it very clear it is not RAW currently.
There's no condition currently called Hidden and under current PF RAW only Invisible make foes lose their DEX.
The dev’s blog is very clear. They are *proposing* to ADD “hidden” as a condition that makes foes lose their DEX. Which means that it currently does NOT do so. If it did do so, there’d be no need for the rules change.
What you don't understand is that they are only clarifying the use of stealth in combat. I repeat. In combat. Those involved are ALL AWARE that you'r here, but if you take the hidden condition you can snake attack.
More important, this creates a problem that should be solved: interaction with uncanny dodge and improved u.d.
This is a use for stealth in combat. Probably a way to "fix the rogue" as people asked. They instead fixed stealth, but it works.
So, they changed stealth? Ok. They didn't change the flat footed contidion, so what's the point in that? You can still render flat footed an enemy striking when he is unaware.
What you need to understand DrDeth is that is not the attacker's condition I mentioned, but the attacked one. If someone is unaware, is flat footed. Surprise description explain how (es stealth vs perception check) it happens. So it's not just being hidden that make victim loose dex bonus, but attacking while hidden give you a surprise round and victim become flat footed until he acts. Simple.
This is also common sense. You should sneak attack with a feint or flanking and not when someone is eating a sandwich? Cmon...
What you don't understand is that they are only clarifying the use of stealth in combat. I repeat. In combat. Those involved are ALL AWARE that you'r here, but if you take the hidden condition you can snake attack.
More important, this creates a problem that should be solved: interaction with uncanny dodge and improved u.d.This is a use for stealth in combat. Probably a way to "fix the rogue" as people asked. They instead fixed stealth, but it works.
So, they changed stealth? Ok. They didn't change the flat footed contidion, so what's the point in that? You can still render flat footed an enemy striking when he is unaware.What you need to understand DrDeth is that is not the attacker's condition I mentioned, but the attacked one. If someone is unaware, is flat footed. Surprise description explain how (es stealth vs perception check) it happens. So it's not just being hidden that make victim loose dex bonus, but attacking while hidden give you a surprise round and victim become flat footed until he acts. Simple.
Trust me, I understand it correctly.
Flat-footed in PF only occurs in a surprise round or in the first round. You seem to be mixing up 3.5 and PF. But outside of that:
The designers have made it clear in their blog- stealth does not currently make your foe lose his DEX. Only Invisibility does. They are thinking of adding a status called “Hidden” which will do as you say. However, under the current RAW, that status does not exist and after the first round of combat, stealth does not make your foe lose his DEX.
You need to read the blog.
"If you GM is cool with a Paladin summoning a Shadow, fine. I would not be cool with it. Especially if we are talking about a Paladin of Pharasma or Iomedae."
Why can't a GM work with them on this? Reflavor a Shadow as some sort of incorporeal outsider. Or maybe something else.
Unless you are playing in Pathfinder Society I think it would be easy to do this.
The character in question is for PFS.
Technically, RADI (Rules as Developer Interpreted) Pharasma can't have Paladins, because ISWG made it explicit which deities had them and did not. Paladins technically do NOT have to follow a deity within one step of their alignment in RAW...
I may also get a clarification between now and 8th level that re-defines the Shadowdancer's Shadow Companion as an incorporeal outsider from the Plane of Shadow, because it's pretty clearly not a necromantic class.
I may be able to spin it as "After having given X years of loyal service, and such, Pharasma has granted me a boon - a companion from the plane of Shadow bound to my tasks."
I may only summon it to fight undead.
I may never summon the Shadow.
I may summon the Shadow and get an Atonement afterwards.
It's a surprisingly powerful set of options to have, even if costly.
I really went for 4 level dip because of the following:
1) It doesn't cost me any additional BAB.
2) It gives me more skills.
3) It gives me 40' of dimension door and some minor spell like abilities that run off of Charisma that are generically useful.
Look,this question about HiPS and SA both WILL not and CAN not be FAQed.
This question has been around since the first days. Wraithstrike's answer has been thought of about a dozen times before. Some Dev very likely spotted it, and was trying to do a FAQ, then found out that it was going to take more than a short answer. Hence, Blog #1. That opened a huge can of worms, thus Blog #2.
It WON”T be FAQed because quite frankly it is clear that the Dev's agree with you , and want the rules to say exactly that. But why would they FAQ the way the RAW is NOW, when they so clearly are working on changing the rules to make it work your way? Doing a FAQ would just confuse the issue. Still, they don’t allow it your way in current PFS, but they are not gonna do a FAQ when they are working towards a rules change. Waste of time.
They CAN’T FAQ it as a FAQ has to be a short clarification of the RAW. Take a look at Blog #2. It’s a well written clearly well thought out multi-page 14 paragraph (note that- FOURTEEN paragraphs!) set of rules CHANGES. Stephen Radney-MacFarland did a great job there. Still, even tho he did a great job, there were 353 posts of quibbles, arguments, demands for clarifications, and so forth. This can of worms was colored purple. Good try, Steve.
Thus, it can’t and won’t be FAQed. Now, wraithstrike you can take solace in the fact that the Devs are on your side, they clearly would like the rules to say what you think they say. But it just isn’t that simple.
I suppose I could ask Sean to drop by here and answer this, but I won’t. Anyway, what would he say? “DrDeth is right but we’re working on changing the rule son this”. About a zillion posters would jump all over him, and frankly a team of “top men” *are* working on this.
Just for those who are interested: Sparked through this discussion I thought I provide a sample build with fighter/shadowdancer. It's not really optimized, but I thought I share it with you.
SHADOWDANCE FIGHTER LVL 12
Male Half-Elf Fighter 5 Shadowdancer 7
NN Medium Humanoid (Elf, Human)
Init +2; Senses Darkvision (60 feet), Low-Light Vision; Perception +17
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DEFENSE
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AC 25, touch 15, flat-footed 22. . (+8 armor, +2 shield, +2 Dex, +2 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 93 (5d10+7d8+24)
Fort +13, Ref +12, Will +11
Defensive Abilities Bravery +1, Defensive Roll (1/day), Evasion, Improved Uncanny Dodge (Lv >=11); Immune sleep; Resist Elven Immunities
--------------------
OFFENSE
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Spd 30 ft.
Melee Light Shield Bash +14/+9 (1d3+4/20/x2) and
. . +3 Ghost Touch Adamantine Falcata +21/+16 (1d8+12/17-20/x3) and
. . Unarmed Strike +14/+9 (1d3+4/20/x2)
Special Attacks Weapon Training: Blades, Heavy
Spell-Like Abilities Shadow Call (2/day), Shadow Illusion (3/day)
--------------------
STATISTICS
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Str 19, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +10; CMB +14; CMD 29 (33 vs. Disarm33 vs. Sunder)
Feats Combat Reflexes (3 AoO/round), Dodge, Furious Focus, Improved Critical: Falcata, Improved Iron Will (1/day), Iron Will, Mobility, Power Attack -3/+6, Weapon Focus: Falcata, Weapon Specialization: Falcata
Traits Highlander (hills or mountains), Indomitable Faith
Skills Acrobatics +17, Bluff +15, Climb +10, Diplomacy +5, Disguise +10, Escape Artist +6, Handle Animal +5, Intimidate +5, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +6, Knowledge (Engineering) +6, Perception +17, Perform (Dance) +5, Ride +7, Sleight of Hand +8, Spellcraft +6, Stealth +23, Survival +5, Swim +8 Modifiers Highlander (hills or mountains)
Languages Common, Elven, Gnome, Halfling
SQ Armor Training 1 (Ex), Elf Blood, Fast Stealth (Ex), Gloves of Dueling, Hide in Plain Sight (Su), Shadow Jump (80'/day) (Su), Slippery Mind (Ex), Summon Shadow (Su)
Combat Gear +1 Mithral Shield, Light Steel, +2 Fortification, Light, Glamered, Shadow Mithral Breastplate, +3 Ghost Touch Adamantine Falcata; Other Gear Cloak of Resistance, +5, Gloves of Dueling, Handy Haversack (empty), Ring of Protection, +2
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Armor Training 1 (Ex) Worn armor -1 check penalty, +1 max DEX.
Bravery +1 (Ex) +1 Will save vs. Fear
Combat Reflexes (3 AoO/round) You may make up to 3 attacks of opportunity per round, and may make them while flat-footed.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Defensive Roll (1/day) (Ex) Once per day, attempt to narrowly escape death.
Elf Blood You are counted as both elves and humans for any effect relating to race.
Elven Immunities +2 save bonus vs Enchantments.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to Sleep effects.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Stealth (Ex) You may move at full speed while using the Stealth skill without penalty.
Furious Focus If you are wielding a weapon in two hands, ignore the penalty for your first attack of each turn.
Gloves of Dueling These supple leather gloves grant the wearer gains a +4 bonus to his CMD against disarm attacks, attempts to sunder his wielded weapons, and effects that cause him to lose his grip on his weapons (such as grease). The wearer doesn’t drop held weapons when panicked or stunned. If the wearer has the weapon training class feature and is using an appropriate weapon, his weapon training bonus increases by +2.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, greater magic weapon; Cost 7,500 gp
Hide in Plain Sight (Su) You can use Stealth even while observed, as long as there is a shadow within 10'
Highlander (hills or mountains) +1 to Stealth checks, Stealth is always a class skill for you. Double this in hilly or rocky areas.
Improved Iron Will (1/day) 1/day, re-roll a Will save.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Lv >=11) (Ex) Retain DEX bonus to AC when flat-footed. You cannot be flanked unless the attacker is Level 11+.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Mobility +4 to AC against some attacks of opportunity.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Shadow Call (2/day) (Sp) You can use Shadow Conjuration as a spell-like ability.
Shadow Illusion (3/day) (Sp) You can use Silent Image as a spell-like ability.
Shadow Jump (80'/day) (Su) Travel between shadows instantly.
Slippery Mind (Ex) Two saves vs Enchantment spells.
Summon Shadow (Su) Summon a Shadow to serve as your companion.
Weapon Training: Blades, Heavy +3 (Ex) +3 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Heavy Blades
Level 12 build because that's where many games, e.g. in PFS, end. I went with half-elf to get the full sensory array normal sight, low-light vision and darkvision. This build lost 2 BAB and some damage output for lots and lots of abilities and skills. Note that you can greatly increase AC or other factors here, I did not really optimize here. You got about 1400gp worth of equipment left.
Now to answer specific feedback
Lots of good replies, too long for quotation...
Thanks Zark, for your input. To sum it up:
- You agree with some of my points.- You disagree with some of it.
- You feel the class is not good or at least not special.
To address some specific points:
- Shadow: Yes, you can get pets and familiars differently. But the shadow is special (incorporeal, your alignment...) and sticks around. I don't see this being replicated without heavy feat investment (eldritch heritage...), alignment restrictions (not good) and being a spellcaster - which I feel is great that you are not obliged to.
- 2-level dip: I see that even more of the levels are great for dipping, or even taking the class completely. Not just the first 2.
- Other prestige class argument: Yes, certainly other prestige classes offers you extension and a different set of features. That is the point of them. But this one is not being replicated by another one, offers a unique combination, which sets it apart - good for me.
- BAB: I don't really care about the drop here. BAB is great and important, but a total loss of 3 BAB is well worth the features the class offers IMO.
- Multi-classing: You state repeatedly that I could get feature x by going to class a and feature y by taking class b and so on. Well, I personally like the combinations here, and taking one prestige class which combines them is what I like. Also, it's more difficult to explain why to multi-class with 3 classes instead of 1 to get the various features IMO.
To me, this is an argument that could be used against almost any PrC and thus is not really compelling.
- Shadow powers: I really think the shadow conjuration/evocation powers are great. Yes, certainly some will make it. But even then it has effects, depending on what you mimic. And others won't realize it.
- Capstone: I disagree here, I still think it's great. You get offensive and defensive abilities, and the DR 10/- is hard to beat.
This is just meant as a reply, not to invalidate yours but to give you some feedback :-)
And I like the complete set of abilities the PrC offers. I might really play one in one of our games...
Interesting build.
Things I would recommend: Buy a pair of +1 ghostbane gauntlets for your shadow companion. This allows it to walk through walls and open doors from the other side, which it otherwise cannot do.
The Highlander Trait is less useful than one that gives you class-level access to a skill you won't get from either Fighter or Shadowdancer.
This is why I took Vagabond Child for Agda - the one "Rogue Skill" that Shadowdancer doesn't get is Disable Device. When she goes to Shadowdancer, her Stealth will jump by 4, her Sleight of Hand and Perception will go up, and so on.
I am pumping Perception because if I only get one Rogue Talent, there are two I'm looking at.
One is Trapsense, which lets her make a freebie Per roll when within 10' of a trap. Trapsense, if I can get her Perception to around +15-18 (and the boon I applied from a con really helps!) at 8th is worth taking, and it's an...underrepresented ability at PFS tables.
The other is Resilience, because it adds temporary HP equal to the character's level if they're dropped below 0, which gives her time to use Lay On Hands after a nasty hit/eating a crit.
I'm assuming you're picking up the Falcata proficiency via the Ancestral Weapons racial bonus.
With a CHA of 10, your save DCs on your spell-like abilities are going to be pretty low - by the time you get them, they're going to be almost useless. One of the hidden synergies with Paladin and Shadowdancer is that they're both CHA-based classes with lots of other cool stuff too.
You might want to consider picking up Eyes of Seeing to boost your Perception roll.
I'm not sure what Agda will do for levels after 4 levels in Shadowdancer. I don't have Weapon Training and Gloves of Duelling to make up for missing BAB, so missing one more BAB is kind of painful since it costs me that third iterative attack.
Right now her gear acquisition plans are, in rough priority:
Tier A (4K and under purchases):
Mithral Agile Breastplate (4,400 GP)
Eyes of Seeing (2,500 GP)
+2 STR Belt (4,000 GP)
+2 Cloak of Resistance (3,000 GP net over what she's spent)
+1 on Mithral Agile Breastplate (1,000 GP)
Shadow on Mithral Agile Breastplate (2,500 GP)
Amulet of Natural Armor (2,000 GP)
Ring of Protection +1 (2,000 GP)
Tier B (4.1K to 10K purchases):
Ghost-touch on pick-axe. (6,000 GP)
+2/+2 WIS/CHA Circlet (10,000 GP)
+3 on Cloak of Resistance (5,000 GP net for upgrade)
Slippers of Spider Climbing (4,800 GP)
Ring of Force Shield (8.5K - she uses a 2-handed weapon, this is the only way she gets a Shield bonus to AC, and it grants against incorporeal attacks.)
Upgrade Ring of Protection to +2 (6,000 GP)
Tier C (10.1K to 18K purchases)
+2 on Pickaxe (10k)
Ghost Touch on Armor (+3 bonus) for +16K
She won't get all of these items, I suspect. But she should end up with most of them.
Assuming she's got about 33k in gear when she gets Shadowdancer 3 (level 8):
Cloak +2 (4K)
STR +2 (4K)
Eyes (2.5K)
Armor +1, Shadow (4.4+1+2.5=7.9K)
Pickaxe: +1 Ghosttouch: 8.7K
Ring Prot +1 (2K)
Amulet Nat. Armor +1 (2K)
Anywhere from 1.9 to about 1K unspent depending on potion purchases, etc. She may have more gear that this - the next Big Purchase to get is the +2 WIS/CHA Circlet, followed by the Ring of Force Shield.
This gives saves of:
Fort: 4+1+1+2+2=+10
Ref: 1+2+3+2+2=+10
Will: 4+1+0+2+2=+9
Her AC is 10+7+3+1+1+1=23 full, 14 touch, 23 Flat Footed.
Her attack sequence is 7+4+1-2=+10/+5 for 1d8+12 damage, 4x crit. This seems low to me, but I currently play a fighter who, at 8th, will have a +19/+14 for 1d8+11 with a 3x crit happening on a 17+, and that's sort of his area of specialization - not missing.
Her signature skills -- 4+4+3+3+3+7+7+15=46 ranks to play with:
Perception: 8+3+0+2+5=+18 (Random +2 is the Trained Eyes boon.)
Stealth: 8+3+3+5-0=+19
Disable Device: 8+3+1+3+2-0=+17
Sleight of Hand: 4+3+3+1=+11
Diplomacy: 6+3+2=+11
Bluff: 2+3+2=+7
Sense Motive: 6+3+0=+9
Know (nobility) 1+3+1=+5
Know (religion) 1+3+1=+5
Perform (dance): 2+3+2=+7
What you don't understand is that they are only clarifying the use of stealth in combat. I repeat. In combat. Those involved are ALL AWARE that you'r here, but if you take the hidden condition you can snake attack.
More important, this creates a problem that should be solved: interaction with uncanny dodge and improved u.d.This is a use for stealth in combat. Probably a way to "fix the rogue" as people asked. They instead fixed stealth, but it works.
So, they changed stealth? Ok. They didn't change the flat footed contidion, so what's the point in that? You can still render flat footed an enemy striking when he is unaware.What you need to understand DrDeth is that is not the attacker's condition I mentioned, but the attacked one. If someone is unaware, is flat footed. Surprise description explain how (es stealth vs perception check) it happens. So it's not just being hidden that make victim loose dex bonus, but attacking while hidden give you a surprise round and victim become flat footed until he acts. Simple.
Trust me, I understand it correctly.
Flat-footed in PF only occurs in a surprise round or in the first round. You seem to be mixing up 3.5 and PF. But outside of that:
The designers have made it clear in their blog- stealth does not currently make your foe lose his DEX. Only Invisibility does. They are thinking of adding a status called “Hidden” which will do as you say. However, under the current RAW, that status does not exist and after the first round of combat, stealth does not make your foe lose his DEX.
You need to read the blog.
Being flat-footed and denied dex are not the same thing. That was the same in PF and 3.5 You can lose dex without being flat-footed.
@wraithstrike: Take it to the rules forum. It is obvious that the stealth rules (and stuff like HIPS) are a mess. That is why they are rewriting them.