How Do We Accomplish...?

[Edenwaith]

We have an over powered witch in our home game. Give me 10 minutes to re-build it for accuracy and I'll post it here so you can see where the b@$#@ing comes from.

[Finlanderboy]

I think it is a dangerous archetype to play.

You use str to hit. Then if you do grapple it gets placed next to you per grapple rules. So the creature can pound on you. So they should have stats in dex and con to take hits. The BAB on the witch is poor so you may miss a whole lot.

The issues I have are people playing it that do not know the rules. They allow int to hit the first attack, they also have the creature grapple where the attack hit instead of pulled next to the witch.

But anyone playing by incorrect rules could have an overpowered class.

[DrSwordopolis]

Holy thread necro, Batman!

Given the lack of "Ban the White-Haired Witch" threads in the past two years, I think it's safe to say that the community as a whole no longer has issues with witches with pale hair, unless they also can put people to sleep.

[Edenwaith]

Rorary Prisock wrote:

We have an over powered witch in our home game. Give me 10 minutes to re-build it for accuracy and I'll post it here so you can see where the b@~+#ing comes from.

Human Witch (White Haired Witch) 6/Fighter 3

Str 14, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 22, Wis 7 Cha 7

Feats:
Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Greater Grapple, Combat Reflexes, Weapon Focus (Hair, White Haired Witch), Weapon Focus (grapple), Feral Combat Training, Vicious Stomp

Magic Items:
+1 Armor Spikes haramaki
Amulet of Mighty Fists +2
Anaconda's Coils
Armbands of the Brawler
Headband of Vast Intelligence
Ioun Stone (Violet Thorny)

Melee: Hair +16 (1d4 +9) - Reach 10'
Grapple CMB +20
Witch's turn:
Reach 10'
Attack, hit, grab, constrict, trip (provokes), release 1d4 +9 x2
Attack, hit, grab, constrict, release 1d4 +9 x2
Move Action:
Grapple, Constrict, do not release 1d4 +9

Monster's turn:
Can't move (grappled), attempts to break grapple (because he doesn't have a reach weapon to attack)

Average Damage 55 Hit points (if everything hits) but most importantly, crowd control when the creature doesn't get many options because he has the grappled condition 10' away from you

P.S. If the mob is a caster instead of melee then pull them in against the spikes of your armor.

[Edenwaith]

Finlanderboy wrote:

I think it is a dangerous archetype to play.

You use str to hit. Then if you do grapple it gets placed next to you per grapple rules. So the creature can pound on you. So they should have stats in dex and con to take hits. The BAB on the witch is poor so you may miss a whole lot.

The issues I have are people playing it that do not know the rules. They allow int to hit the first attack, they also have the creature grapple where the attack hit instead of pulled next to the witch.

But anyone playing by incorrect rules could have an overpowered class.

I believe the witch uses intelligence in place of strength with the hair attack.

[Paz]

Rorary Prisock wrote:

I believe the witch uses intelligence in place of strength with the hair attack.

This is the case for the free grapple, but not for any other attacks, unless I've missed something.

Also be aware that the constrict and trip are both swift actions, so they can't both be done in the same round.

[Edenwaith]

Patrick Renie wrote:

Mattastrophic wrote:

Michael Brock wrote:

All I can do is ask everyone to have a little patience while we work towards improving the campaign.

Is there any way you could perhaps share what sorts of ideas your weekly discussions have produced?

Also... so, Mike, how 'bout that Synthesist? And that White-Haired Witch?

-Matt

While I can't speak for the Synthesist at the moment, we have come up with some errata for the White-Haired Witch.

On page 23 of the Dragon Empires Gazetteer, in the White-Haired Witch archetype, in the Constrict, Trip, and Pull paragraphs, change "free action" to "swift action".

Besides this post, where can I find that errata for the white-haired witch?

[Paz]

Rorary Prisock wrote:

Besides this post, where can I find that errata for the white-haired witch?

I don't know; why do you ask?

[Edenwaith]

Paz wrote:

Rorary Prisock wrote:

I believe the witch uses intelligence in place of strength with the hair attack.

This is the case for the free grapple, but not for any other attacks, unless I've missed something.

Also be aware that the constrict and trip are both swift actions, so they can't both be done in the same round.

I want to believe you on the strength/intelligence argument but hero labs calculates the hair attack using intelligence, they must have gotten that from somewhere.

[Edenwaith]

Paz wrote:

Rorary Prisock wrote:

Besides this post, where can I find that errata for the white-haired witch?

I don't know; why do you ask?

Because, when striking down power gamers, you must have irrefutable proof or prepare for a long argument.

[Paz]

Rorary Prisock wrote:

Because, when striking down power gamers, you must have irrefutable proof or prepare for a long argument.

If posts from two Paizo employees (one of which is the PFS global coordinator) including the word 'errata' aren't enough, then we have a bigger problem.

[FLite]

Well, a couple of problems here....

First, Constrict, Trip, (and pull) are swift actions for a WHW. (Look further back up this thread.)

Second, once a creature is tripped, you can't retrip it till it stands up.

Third, how are you getting a move action grapple?

Fourth, I'm assuming the iterative attacks are from the trip provoke? Otherwise how is he getting 4 attacks?

[Paz]

Rorary Prisock wrote:

I want to believe you on the strength/intelligence argument but hero labs calculates the hair attack using intelligence, they must have gotten that from somewhere.

You'd think, wouldn't you? But the actual rulebook doesn't mention it.

[The Fox]

Finlanderboy wrote:

But anyone playing by incorrect rules could have an overpowered class.

I just thought this was worth repeating.

[Edenwaith]

FLite wrote:

Well, a couple of problems here....

First, Constrict, Trip, (and pull) are swift actions for a WHW. (Look further back up this thread.)

Second, once a creature is tripped, you can't retrip it till it stands up.

Third, how are you getting a move action grapple?

Fourth, I'm assuming the iterative attacks are from the trip provoke? Otherwise how is he getting 4 attacks?

You're right, I just edited those extra attacks. The extra grapple comes from greater grapple feat turning grapple into a move action.

[Edenwaith]

The Fox wrote:

Finlanderboy wrote:

But anyone playing by incorrect rules could have an overpowered class.

I just thought this was worth repeating.

Why?

The whole point of this discussion is to determine where the rules ARE being applied incorrectly. At least, that's why I'm here. Repeating Finlanderboy is unnecessary redundancy.

[Edenwaith]

Paz wrote:

Rorary Prisock wrote:

Because, when striking down power gamers, you must have irrefutable proof or prepare for a long argument.

If posts from two Paizo employees (one of which is the PFS global coordinator) including the word 'errata' aren't enough, then we have a bigger problem.

Well the problem is I found this by pure luck. How about the 50,000 other people who haven't accidentally come across this post yet?

The rest of us (including the offender) in our group didn't know that the constrict and trip were errata'd to swift actions.

[SCPRedMage]

Rorary Prisock wrote:

Monster's turn:

Can't move (grappled), attempts to break grapple (because he doesn't have a reach weapon to attack)

Actually, the grapple rules say this:

Grapple wrote:

If you successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you, move that creature to an adjacent open space (if no space is available, your grapple fails).

So in order to actually grapple the target, the witch has to move the creature into an adjacent square, so the monster doesn't need reach to attack the witch.

As to using Intelligence instead of Strength, this is copied directly from my PDF of Dragon Empires Primer:

White Haired Witch wrote:

White Hair (Su): At 1st level, a white-haired witch gains the ability to use her hair as a weapon. This functions as a primary natural attack with a reach of 5 feet. The hair deals 1d4 points of damage (1d3 for a Small witch) plus the witch’s Intelligence modifier. In addition, whenever the hair strikes a foe, the witch can attempt to grapple that foe with her hair as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity, using her Intelligence modifier in place of her Strength modifier when making the combat maneuver check. When a white-haired witch grapples a foe in this way, she does not gain the grappled condition.

So she uses Int for the CMB check, but not the initial attack. If Hero Lab is using Int for the attack roll, it's just another in a series of things they do wrong (like applying max Dex bonus to CMD).

[FLite]

Rorary Prisock wrote:

Paz wrote:

Rorary Prisock wrote:

I believe the witch uses intelligence in place of strength with the hair attack.

This is the case for the free grapple, but not for any other attacks, unless I've missed something.

Also be aware that the constrict and trip are both swift actions, so they can't both be done in the same round.

I want to believe you on the strength/intelligence argument but hero labs calculates the hair attack using intelligence, they must have gotten that from somewhere.

Not really. Hero Labs gets stuff wrong all the time.

[joe kirner]

It all come down to the player. If you want to create a monstrosity that takes all the fun out of a game for you and/or the other players, then that is your choice. There are those that have to
be "that guy". It happens in every rpg out there.. I just make sure to point it out to said player. Good for you. Thanks for wrecking the game.

[FLite]

Ah. missed the greater grapple.

If she released at the end of her attack, she cannot use greater grapple, as that can only be used to maintain a grapple, not to initiate one. (I am not sure if constrict happens when you maintain or only when you initiate.)

In any case, if she has greater grapple, she can move straight to "pin" in which case, the 10 foot reach is irrelevant, because a pinned creature can't do anything but escape anyway.

[Finlanderboy]

See your problems were the same exact ones I saw happening.

Look at the grapple rules, and make them SHOW you the rules in a accepted format for the witch to work.

The players do not need to be convinced what is legal. They need to convince the Dm what is legal

[FLite]

Also, what standard are you comparing this to? OP is only OP relative to something.

What would this look like if you just built it as a maneuver master monk at that level?

[Bruno Breakbone]

Bruno, as a beautiful and handsome Tetori, is very proud of the grappling knowledge displayed in this thread. Bruno like to think people know so much about grappling because they see Bruno and go, "How do I become as beautiful and handsome as Bruno, a beautiful and handsome Tetori?" and grapple grappling rules with their brains.

Quote:

Witch's turn:

Reach 10'
Attack, hit, grab, constrict, trip (provokes), release 1d4 +9 x2
Attack, hit, grab, constrict, release 1d4 +9 x2
Move Action:
Grapple, Constrict, do not release 1d4 +9

As new Gym Teacher at the Acadamae, Bruno break down grappling for weak babymuscle wizards. People already clarified swift action usage above.

However, there FIVE other problems:

1) Bruno see that you are maintaining Grapple as move action...but you can't do that as you released grapple previously. You only maintain as a move action on an existing grapple, you don't initiate a new one as a move action.

2) Anaconda's Coils grant constrict ability for 1d6 + STR. For action economy's sake, WHW should use constrict granted by the Coils...however, this means the damage output will most likely be lower (1d6+2 vs 1d4+9).

3) Vicious Stomp trigger on foe falling prone in ADJACENT square. You cannot Vicious Stomp at range.

4) Vicious Stomp attack MUST be an unarmed strike. WHW's hair is a natural weapon. This solved with...

5) Feral Combat Training, which require Weapon Focus with a Natural Weapon (i.e. the hair). Your Weapon Focus lists Grapple. You would to list the Hair as the WF for FCT to work with VS.

Let's assume we fix Weapon Focus issue. Taking all the feedback into account so far, the ideal round:

Begin Turn

Standard Action:
Attack
>hit!
>damage! 1d4+9
>Grab (free action)
>grapple!
>move foe adjacent
>constrict! 1d6+2

Swift Action:
Trip
-PROVOKES AOO AS PC DOES NOT HAVE IMPROVED TRIP, DAMAGE TAKEN = PENALTY TO TRIP CMB-
>success
>Vicious Stomp
>hit!
>damage! 1d4+9

Move Action:
Grapple (to pin, otherwise baddie gets full attack on his turn)
>constrict! 1d6+2

End Turn

2d4+2d6+22 (AVG DPR 34)
Opponent is adjacent
Opponent is prone
You have possibly taken an AOO

eta: Corrected damage

[Bruno Breakbone]

Bruno grapple Problem #6

Armbands of Brawler is a +1 Competence Bonus. Anaconda's Coils is a +2 Competence Bonus. Violet Thorny Ioun Stone is a +2 Competence Bonus. Those don't stack. That's -3 CMB right there.

Take out the WF: Grapple as I noted above, that's another -1 CMB.

So, that character with the listed stats and items should have a CMB of 14.

+6 BAB
+2 STR
+4 Feats
+2 Competence from Anaconda's coils
---
+14 CMB

(if James Jacob post is accurate, add +4 CMB for Grab Ability)

eta: Bruno grapple math

[nosig]

I have nothing useful to add to this discussion - but I feel compelled to say.... "Bravo Bruno! I stand in honor of your skill as Gym Teacher at the Academe! Bravo Sir!" ... skill mastery should be recognized

[Garble Facechomper]

Too many numberz Bruno! Just bite them!

[Kyle Baird]

Grab (Ex) gives +4 to CMB to grapple checks. I see nothing that would cause me to rule thang the WHW gets the same bonus.

[Finlanderboy]

Kyle Baird wrote:

Grab (Ex) gives +4 to CMB to grapple checks. I see nothing that would cause me to rule thang the WHW gets the same bonus.

I would agree with that as well.

But it shows that player not being audited using the rules as they see fit making a broken character is not a surprise.

This is also another reason I dislike herolab.

[Edenwaith]

Bruno Breakbone wrote:

Bruno grapple Problem #6

Armbands of Brawler is a +1 Competence Bonus. Anaconda's Coils is a +2 Competence Bonus. Violet Thorny Ioun Stone is a +2 Competence Bonus. Those don't stack. That's -3 CMB right there.

Take out the WF: Grapple as I noted above, that's another -1 CMB.

So, that character with the listed stats and items should have a CMB of 14.

+6 BAB
+2 STR
+4 Feats
+2 Competence from Anaconda's coils
---
+14 CMB

(if James Jacob post is accurate, add +4 CMB for Grab Ability)

eta: Bruno grapple math

I follow you, but let me tackle a little of that math for you... the "witch can attempt to grapple that foe with her hair as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity, using her Intelligence modifier in place of her Strength modifier when making the combat maneuver check." With a 24 Int that's +7 to CMB instead of +2 from Strength. Yes I listed WF (Grapple) but I also listed WF (Hair), she has the feats for both. WF (Grapple) gives 1 more to CMB.

Creatures with the grappled condition cannot make an AOO. So when she attempts to trip she doesn't have to fear an AOO from the creature in question.

I know why you're replacing 1d4 +9 with 1d6 +2 but when I posted originally I was illustrating what he had built BEFORE we discovered there was an obscure errata(as in not listed in any normal rules locations, books, FAQ, Additional resources etc.) We NOW know that part is broken. So yeah, in places she now has to 1d6 +2 but I doubt he'll even want to play the character once he discovers what I have discovered.

In short, it's all moot.

Now my question is, if Patrick posted "While I can't speak for the Synthesist at the moment, we have come up with some errata for the White-Haired Witch. On page 23 of the Dragon Empires ..." on 6 February 2012 why has Synthesist (which he couldn't answer at the time) been errata'd in Additional Resources but WHW's free action to swift not made it in with at least two edition updates since then?

Did they change their mind and the constrict/trip/pull actions of the witch still free actions? Maybe THAT's why Hero Labs makes so many mistakes, they're following in Paizo's image.

[Sammy T]

I'm guessing that if that dev errata never made it into print, FAQ or prd--hero lab played it conservative and stuck with what is officially in print.

[Bruno Breakbone]

Re: Maths

This why Bruno beautiful and handsome Gym Teacher not babymuscle math teacher :)

[Edenwaith]

Bruno Breakbone wrote:

Re: Maths

This why Bruno beautiful and handsome Gym Teacher not babymuscle math teacher :)

We still love Bruno.

[Paz]

Rorary Prisock wrote:

Now my question is, if Patrick posted "While I can't speak for the Synthesist at the moment, we have come up with some errata for the White-Haired Witch. On page 23 of the Dragon Empires ..." on 6 February 2012 why has Synthesist (which he couldn't answer at the time) been errata'd in Additional Resources but WHW's free action to swift not made it in with at least two edition updates since then?

Synthesist has not been errataed, it has been ruled illegal for PFS play; an entirely different thing.

Patrick could only comment on the WHW as that was in a book he developed. It would take one of the Pathfinder Design Team to announce an errata of the synthesist, as it was in one of the main hardbacks.

Quote:

Did they change their mind and the constrict/trip/pull actions of the witch still free actions? Maybe THAT's why Hero Labs makes so many mistakes, they're following in Paizo's image.

No, the WHW errata has not been rescinded. From what you're saying, it sounds like Hero Lab is in error.

[Edenwaith]

Paz wrote:

Rorary Prisock wrote:

Now my question is, if Patrick posted "While I can't speak for the Synthesist at the moment, we have come up with some errata for the White-Haired Witch. On page 23 of the Dragon Empires ..." on 6 February 2012 why has Synthesist (which he couldn't answer at the time) been errata'd in Additional Resources but WHW's free action to swift not made it in with at least two edition updates since then?

Synthesist has not been errataed, it has been ruled illegal for PFS play; an entirely different thing.

Patrick could only comment on the WHW as that was in a book he developed. It would take one of the Pathfinder Design Team to announce an errata of the synthesist, as it was in one of the main hardbacks.

Quote:

Did they change their mind and the constrict/trip/pull actions of the witch still free actions? Maybe THAT's why Hero Labs makes so many mistakes, they're following in Paizo's image.

No, the WHW errata has not been rescinded. From what you're saying, it sounds like Hero Lab is in error.

I never said anything about Hero Lab backing up free vs swift, that was the intelligence to attack reference. The reason I ask if WHW errata was rescinded is because the errata has not made it to any source other than this obscure location I found purely by luck. "Archetypes: broodmaster summoner, clone master alchemist, gravewalker witch, pack lord druid, master summoner, reincarnated druid, synthesist summoner, undead lord cleric, vivisectionist alchemist archetypes are not legal for play." from http://paizo.com/pathfinderSociety/about/additionalResources I call errata. Where's the WHW errata on this page? My tongue-in-cheek point about it not making it to any "official" errata location was in reference to synthesist that they hadn't even made a decision on at the time of this OP back in Feb of 2012 IS in the Additional Resource but they neglected to add the WHW change, which they had SUPPOSEDLY decided on. I'm not arguing the legality of free vs swift, I'm arguing Paizo's lack of effort it making that decision available in a location reasonable for people to go looking for. I have all the books, I print out the Additional Resource page every time it's updated and I frequent the FAQ on a weekly basis but I still wasn't aware of the WHW errata. Shame on me for not reading every post on the forums but I moved out of my mom's basement years ago. I have a family to care for now and must limit my available time for researching *on a side note* errata. /rant over

[Paz]

You'll have to take the issue of Paizo only issuing errata when they do reprints up in a more prominent location, as it's a wider issue than PFS. But generally you won't get errata on the Additional Resources page, as that's not what it's there for.

To be honest, I think it just shows the value of the community on here. You posted a problem PC build you were struggling with and several people (myself included) replied pointing out problems with it, in an effort to help you. I've never played a white-haired witch, I just googled 'white haired witch pathfinder' and went to the first result, where the errata is called out.

And I too have a family to care for.

[Edenwaith]

Paz wrote:

You'll have to take the issue of Paizo only issuing errata when they do reprints up in a more prominent location, as it's a wider issue than PFS. But generally you won't get errata on the Additional Resources page, as that's not what it's there for.

To be honest, I think it just shows the value of the community on here. You posted a problem PC build you were struggling with and several people (myself included) replied pointing out problems with it, in an effort to help you. I've never played a white-haired witch, I just googled 'white haired witch pathfinder' and went to the first result, where the errata is called out.

And I too have a family to care for.

Good stuff, moving on.

[GreySector]

Paz wrote:

You'll have to take the issue of Paizo only issuing errata when they do reprints up in a more prominent location, as it's a wider issue than PFS.

And a lot of the time not even then. I'm looking at you, Inner Sea Gods/Glorious Heat.

Seriously though all of this 'errata' needs to be collected in a central location otherwise it is utterly useless.

[nosig]

Michael Eshleman wrote:

Paz wrote:

You'll have to take the issue of Paizo only issuing errata when they do reprints up in a more prominent location, as it's a wider issue than PFS.

And a lot of the time not even then. I'm looking at you, Inner Sea Gods/Glorious Heat.

Seriously though all of this 'errata' needs to be collected in a central location otherwise it is utterly useless.

"...central location..."

isn't that what the Internet is?

;)

[FLite]

Rorary Prisock wrote:

Rorary Prisock wrote:

We have an over powered witch in our home game. Give me 10 minutes to re-build it for accuracy and I'll post it here so you can see where the b@~+#ing comes from.

Monster's turn:

Can't move (grappled), attempts to break grapple (because he doesn't have a reach weapon to attack)

You forgot a step. (Yeah, I could have posted this earlier, but I couldn't remember where it was posted.

Grappling wrote:

If you successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you, move that creature to an adjacent open space (if no space is available, your grapple fails).

Also, you brought up a very important point.

Grappled characters cannot make attacks of opportunity. BOTH the person initiating the grapple and the person being grappled get the grappled condition (unless the WHW wants to take a -20 on the grab attempt.) So the white haired witch cannot AoO the tripped character.

That means Vicious stomp does no use for this character. (I'm not sure how useful pull is for the character either.)

[Sammy T]

The WHW's hair does the grappling and she remains grapple condition-free per the ability.

[Garble Facechomper]

Sammy T wrote:

The WHW's hair does the grappling and she remains grapple condition-free per the ability.

Not meeeeeee!

[Harold the Goblin's Herald]

Master Garble's "math" for review by Bruno:

Assuming a successful bite attack, the free grapple check is +31

+9 BAB
+1 size
+4 STR (while raging)
+2 enhancement (while raging. Furious AoMF)
+3 untyped (Reckless Abandon rage power)
+4 untyped (Grab (Ex) special ability)
+2 untyped (Improved Grapple)
+2 untyped (Gauntlets of the Skilled Maneuver)
+2 insight (resonant power of DRP ioun stone)
+1 competence (Armbands of the Brawler)
+1 trait (Goblin Foolhardiness) (often) (ETV)

[FLite]

Sammy T wrote:

The WHW's hair does the grappling and she remains grapple condition-free per the ability.

Ah. Missed that last line.

Okay, but she still moves the foe adjacent to her. So no grappling someone and then making them attack with a reach weapon to hit you.

[Pirate Rob]

Shouldn't Garble Small Size be -1 instead of +1?

[Lormyr]

Harold the Goblin's Herald wrote:

Master Garble's "math" for review by Bruno:

Assuming a successful bite attack, the free grapple check is +31

+9 BAB
+1 size
+4 STR (while raging)
+2 enhancement (while raging. Furious AoMF)
+3 untyped (Reckless Abandon rage power)
+4 untyped (Grab (Ex) special ability)
+2 untyped (Improved Grapple)
+2 untyped (Gauntlets of the Skilled Maneuver)
+2 insight (resonant power of DRP ioun stone)
+1 competence (Armbands of the Brawler)
+1 trait (Goblin Foolhardiness) (often) (ETV)

Looks good to me, with two exceptions.

1). The +1 size bonus on attack rolls is either superseded by or nets to +/-0 when combined with the -1 size penalty to CMB. (How that math works out is debated. Strictly RAW, I see them cancelling each other out.)

2). Enhancement bonuses on attack rolls from a weapon (including unarmed strike and natural weapons) do not increase CMB for grapple checks, but do apply to combat maneuvers you can make with a weapon (such as disarm and trip). There was a blog post or FAQ in a thread somewhere on this. I will see if I can dig it up for you.

[pH unbalanced]

Are we *sure* the Grapple puts the opponent adjacent for a WHW? Because in that case, what does the "Pull" ability even do?

Pull wrote:

Pull (Ex): At 6th level, a white-haired witch who successfully strikes a foe with her hair can attempt a combat maneuver check to pull the creature 5 feet closer to her as a free[sic] action.

I'm not an expert on the grapple rules by any means, but from the existence of that ability, I would infer that the WHW and the opponent are not automatically adjacent.

[Chris Mortika]

Pull wrote:

Pull (Ex): At 6th level, a white-haired witch who successfully strikes a foe with her hair can attempt a combat maneuver check to pull the creature 5 feet closer to her as a free[sic] action.

Doesn't have to grapple.

[FLite]

yes we are sure. (The text I copied was copy / pasted from the prd combat rules for grapple.)

Go look up the CRB grapple rules.
A grapple auto fails unless there is a place adjacent to the character to pull the character.

As far as I can tell, pull is useful only if you hit, then fail your grab, but still want the opponent in reach.

[pH unbalanced]

Chris Mortika wrote:

Pull wrote:

Pull (Ex): At 6th level, a white-haired witch who successfully strikes a foe with her hair can attempt a combat maneuver check to pull the creature 5 feet closer to her as a free[sic] action.

Doesn't have to grapple.

Got it. Thank you.