By "mature" above, I mean "grown-ups" (they're probably not really that mature), to clarify that this is not a group of kids picking up dice for the first time. This group is well-educated, creative, and talented (2 actors, so plenty of role-playing potential). They just aren't familiar with the Pathfinder rules, that's all.
Given that set of parameters, can anyone recommend a good AP to start them off? I thought about starting with stand-alone modules, but I always prefer to have at least the potential to string out a big, epic storyline.
I have already run Crimson Throne, and am running Kingmaker and Carrion Crown with other groups. So I'd rather not resort to any of those. The other APs I own in paper form are:
Council of Thieves
Serpent's Skull
Jade Regent
...but if another AP really seems perfect, I can track it down.
Thoughts?
I didnt like it (more because of our GM) but what I have heard and seen Council of Thieves Fits the bill
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Recommend Serpents skull. It takes em out of their comfort zone and shows them something new. Plus, if your a GM who likes to customise and tweak adventures, the chapters i've run have all been good for that.
Council of Theives has the whole acting scenario in there, which might make that pair of thespians you got in your group happy. I don't know much about the AP beyond the first adventure and the players guide though, and that there is a part where you have to take part in a potentially very lethal play.
If you guys have been playing for a while Runelords might be worth looking at. It has a lot of the old school feel that seems to appeal to them "mature" types, plus there is a play house in the town you start off in, so again...tickling the thespians. There are a metric rear-end-ton of very colorful NPCs to engage with throughout the path, both has good guys and bad guys, so if you can keep the party from butchering every named NPC the moment their spotted (was having a hell of a time when I first ran it with this...) there is a lot of RP potential.
Jade Regeant seems to have lots of RP potential too, the whole starting off in one culture, traveling through another to arive at a third thing...plus has a very strong inwriten system for dealing with those colorful NPCs (the system may or may not be a problem...but even if it is, the path is set up under the assumption that you're dealing with the NPCs a lot)
So, this is their first RPG experience, period?
If so, I'd strongly recommend Rise of the Runelords. You fight classic monsters in a generic fantasy setting, letting people easily get into the game and the universe. The adventures are solid and interesting, with mature themes that have become downplayed over time (I couldn't see the closet goblin or inbred ogres appearing in a current AP). It takes a while to get into "epicness," but it is there if you give it a chance.
Council of Thieves is interesting, but a little... weird? It has more of a "High Fantasy" feel, with Tieflings and Hellknights and tons of weird magic all set in a devil-ruled nation. Fine for experienced players, but a first time group might find it a bit offputting. Plus, I don't feel like the adventures are at the same level of "Runelords," and the overall story (villains being introduced late, little development, etc) seems to be one of the biggest issues people had with it.
Jade Regent is also a good choice. It isn't quite as old school fantasy as Runelords, but would be easy enough to follow. Vikings and Ninjas are easier to explain than Tieflings and Cheliax, and the actual adventures are just incredibly good. It also has the most coherent, continuous and epic storyline of any AP. You'll need to do some fiddling (Caravans are borked, NPC motivation can be weird), but I think it is worth it if you don't want to buy/convert Runelords.
While not an adventure path, I'd strongly recommend the Price of Immortality series. It's a 3 part series of modules with a linked story line. The first book is a fairly classic crawl that does a great job of introducing people to the Pathfinder rules (as this series was design to be a first time Pathfinder guide for GMs and players). The second book is heavy on the role playing, with a little combat and other things thrown in. The third book is an overland rush to stop the BBEG before time runs out and has a lot great scenarios in it.
Crypt of the Everflame
Masks of the Living God
City of Golden Death
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Do a few stand-alone Modules first.
Absolutely.
Everyone can get a bit comfortable with the rules and each others' gaming styles, making all the mistakes and bad decisions along the way.
Then, after you've become more fluent with how you play and learn from some mistakes, you can start an AP.
Read the outlines for all of them and pick your favorite.
If you try to learn with an AP then by the time you begin say, the 3rd volume, all the screw-ups and bad decisions and akward rules interpretaions you made will be stuck to you. And you can't wipe the slate clean and start over with new PCs and a new adventure.
Start with a couple stand-alone modules and then you won't be stuck playing with any bad mistakes for the whole rest of an AP campaign.
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Do a few stand-alone Modules first.
Absolutely.
Everyone can get a bit comfortable with the rules and each others' gaming styles, making all the mistakes and bad decisions along the way.
Then, after you've become more fluent with how you play and learn from some mistakes, you can start an AP.
Read the outlines for all of them and pick your favorite.If you try to learn with an AP then by the time you begin say, the 3rd volume, all the screw-ups and bad decisions and akward rules interpretaions you made will be stuck to you. And you can't wipe the slate clean and start over with new PCs and a new adventure.
Start with a couple stand-alone modules and then you won't be stuck playing with any bad mistakes for the whole rest of an AP campaign.
Somebody didn't read the OP's post. :)
Assuming there's no preference for settings, I recommend Legacy of Fire.
It has one of the best starts to an AP with the one-two punch that is Howl of the Carrion King and House of the Beast. The players find plenty of investment in the area and particularly, the city of Kelmarane. The villain is well foreshadowed and presented. The history in the form of the Templars of the Five Winds is wonderful, especially if one of the PCs finds the hidden templar weapon. Also, the underlying theme of Sarenrae vs Rovagug is great and helps the AP feel like part of something much bigger while leaving plenty of hooks to go in that epic direction.
There is some work to be done, however. You have to convert from 3.5 rules, first and foremost. Also, there is a huge chunk of the AP which can be tough on certain parties. Specifically, chapters 4 and 5 are away from the material plane and can drag for your players. Without a lack of a "market" it can feel really long drawn out without being able to receive the items they would like. Customizing treasue is recommended.
Also, with the templar's weapon, the other players may feel out of the spotlight. You would have to find someway to resolve that if so is the case. There are also some minor details such as ignored hooks and inconcistencies in story which need to be addressed. Most of those are brough up in the LoF GM threads on the boards, though.
Overall, LoF is a fantastic AP with appropriate feelings of adventure, mystery, and a grand scope of threat. I feel it is often overlooked due to the Arabian Nights feel, but if you ask me, that is just part of the appeal.
Somebody didn't read the OP's post. :)Do a few stand-alone Modules first.
Absolutely.
Everyone can get a bit comfortable with the rules and each others' gaming styles, making all the mistakes and bad decisions along the way.
Then, after you've become more fluent with how you play and learn from some mistakes, you can start an AP.
Read the outlines for all of them and pick your favorite.If you try to learn with an AP then by the time you begin say, the 3rd volume, all the screw-ups and bad decisions and akward rules interpretaions you made will be stuck to you. And you can't wipe the slate clean and start over with new PCs and a new adventure.
Start with a couple stand-alone modules and then you won't be stuck playing with any bad mistakes for the whole rest of an AP campaign.
Actually, I would be the did. Like he said, start a few modules, learn the kinks of the game *then* do an adventure path. I Crypt of the Everflame, then took my PCs to Curse of the Crimson Throne and sometimes I regret it as there was so much more I could of done. It was my first time GMing Pathfinder and it affected the storyline. I didn't know the world as well as I should have, didn't read into the APs as much either, but I got lucky in that almost all of the houserules I made about the surrounding environment actually happened to fit into Golarion.
Truthfully, I suggest playing out The Price of Immortality series (the ones I posted before) and a great follow up to Price is Conquest of Bloodsworn Vale. After that, your players should be between 10-12th level. I did a little poking around on the Pathfinder Wiki and another follow up to that one could be Clash of the Kingslayers. I've specifically chosen those modules because they are all set in the same area of Nirmathas and the Mindspin Mountains. You'll probably be 13th to 15 level at that point and at about the same point you would be if you played through an adventure path. It's a good place to retire as I'm not sure of any modules that take characters any higher.
You're right, he did say that and I read it and totally spaced on it, Ray very well could have done the same.
But regardless of that, our advice still stands and I stand by mine. Running the Price of Immortality is a good place to start with people that are unfamiliar to Pathfinder, and so are other stand alone modules. I don't suggest using an AP as a beginning place for new Pathfinder players because an AP typically takes 6 months to a years time of play. That's a lot of commitment to a character as a learning period.
Playing Crypt of the Everflame shouldn't take more than two sessions, the second one could take 2 - 3 sessions and the third one probably 4 or 5. Conquest could take up to 7 sessions depending on how much role playing the PCs do and I've never run or really looked through Kingslayers. You're looking at something like 3 - 5 months of play if you play once a week, it's a lot less commitment to a character and more "disposable" than an AP.
However, if all you're going to do is nit pick one aspect of our posts, you're not being helpful and you should refrain from posting. It's a waste of time and you're not helping the OP with his question or giving alternative advice.
Thanks for your advice, everybody. It is all appreciated.
I do, indeed, have a lot of experience as a Pathfinder GM; it's the players who are new to the game. I also have a lot of experience tailoring and adjusting APs as they unfold, not only to make them more closely suited to PCs' needs (goals, character arcs, etc.), but also to fix stupid mistakes made in early chapters.
That said, I think Ray and Tels may be on to something. I sometimes get over-enthusiastic when setting up an AP, and if the playing group doesn't click, or if their schedules get too hectic and the game falls apart, I feel like there's a lot of wasted potential. So it might, in fact, be wise to rein in my ambition and start them off with one or two standalone modules. I'll check out Everflame.
The only problem is, if we get through those modules and want to keep going, there's no ready-made continuing narrative. I've stitched unrelated modules together in the past, and it's not as satisfying as an AP with a consistent mood and an overarching plot.
So here's a related question: has anyone ever taken a gaming group from stand-alone adventures into Adventure Paths (starting at higher levels, presumably)? Which modules/APs? How did you handle the transition?
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Well, I read the first paragraph, at least.
My bad.
After reading that later key sentence I'll say this -- Do an AP if you think the new-to-Pathfinder Players are likely going to be comfortable in the shoes of PCs they choose. It's not uncommon, though, for a new Player to LOVE Druids, for example, and then after playing a Druid for 3 sessions really NOT like playing them. This is true especially of Spellcasters who need to be played by folks who really know all their spell options.
But yes, my advice earlier doesn't apply as much in this case.
What AP, you ask?
Rise of the Runelords is great, albeit 3.5;
Serpent's Skull is super fun to play, as is Carrion Crown.
Those are the three I'd look at for a new group, grab the one that sounds most fun.
Legacy of Fire has aspects I wouldn't introduce to new gamers. And Second Darkness falls flat in the second half. Kingmaker, as a Sandbox, is better for folks that come in knowing what they can do at the table and you're already running it anyway. As for CotCT and CoT, well, I've avoided spoilers for them in the hopes of finding someone to DM them for me eventually. And Jade Regent has been quite a letdown.
Well all the adventures I mentioned, Everflame, Mask, Golden Death, Conqeust, and Kinglsayer are all set in or on the border of Nirmathas and they could flow together as a "Protector of Nirmathas" setting.
As for APs, I've only ever run CotCT and I'm currently playing in Kingmaker, but I've heard unanimous praise about Runelord.
One thing that you might think about doing is after running the Price of Immortality, (and highly recommend using Conquest here to bump PCs up a few levels) is running Seven Swords of Sin. It's a very deadly dungeon set in Kaer Maga which is near Korvosa. You could use that story as a springboard to jump into the 5th and 6th books of CotCT
In Seven Swords, the clergy of Abadar contact the PCs to hunt down an enchantress named Tirana in Kaer Maga. Now you could tailor it to the clergy of Abadar are actually looking for people strong enough to oppose the queen. Have Abadar and the Kunites (Sial, Laori etc.) be working together to over-throw Ileosa and then jump into Scarwall.
You could also have them end the Immortality series and then jump them into History of Ashes as, at first, diplomats to the Shoanti and later getting them tied up in the rest of CotCT.
I'd imagine jumping into an AP midway would be rather difficult as, at least in CotCT, there are a lot of NPCs that come into play later on in the story that the PCs interact with in the earlier books. You would have to do something like give them a list of NPCs and a rough break down of their backgrounds and what's happened to them or in the previous books of the AP.
My group has only just recently finished the second book of the Kingmaker AP, but one thing you could do there is, at later levels, make the PCs simply become adventurers of the kingdom and not part of the ruling class at all until they've proved themselves as Defenders of the Crown, Heores of the Kingdom, etc.. In this way you could slowly merge a kingdom of your own design and the higher level PCs together.
I would recommend Jade Regent. Its combat to roleplaying ratio is not that not very much in favor of roleplaying, but it is very well put together. Well, besides the horrible caravan rules, whose combat part doesn't work at all.
Serpent's Skull has several horrible modules and I haven't heard too good things about the higher level modules of Council of Thieves.