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A slight variation but essentially the same.
Umm, I could be reading it wrong, or misunderstanding, but Josh’s ruling for upgrading an already enchanted Arcane Bonded item was the difference between the item creation cost, while the FAQ seems to say it uses the same as the normal PFS rules for upgrading magical items. That seems more then a slight variation.
I am not criticizing, I am just trying to clarify.
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BTW: Dragnmoo I think the bit you are missing is where it says cost rather than price.
I don't think I am, It is "Cost" for making a non magical to magical, but you use the normal PFS rule for upgrading an already enchanted item which uses "Price" not "Cost" according to the new FAQ.
The old "Rule" was you use Cost for both with Arcane Bonded items.
Mark Says I am reading it wrong, Mike seems to think I am not... So Now I am more confused!!!
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Yeah, I'm with Dragnmoon on this one, this seems like a big change, not a "slight variation." Wizard's already get the shaft on buying all their spells and rarely finding scrolls in scenarios, but now we have to pay double the amount for arcane bond??????
Hey I was working really hard to try to Clarify and not Criticize, I expect my players to do the same!!! ;)
Venture-Captain, Oregon—Portland
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Ok, didn't mean that to sound as critical as it came out, just upset because the new wording seems to hurt the wizard class even more, rather than help. To be honest, I'd rather they just drop the Arcane Bond ability from PFS altogether if they're going to make it more difficult to utilize.
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Mike quick question...
As written the FAQ would allow A wizard from holding off until he had the Fame and money to enchant a non-magical item into a more powerful item.
Example start with Masterwork Amulet and then when you had the fame and money upgrade it to a +4 Amulet of Natural Armor at cost, and skipping the +1-+3.
Was that your intention?
There is also some funky things a Wizard can do by "losing" the item but I won't get into that.
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Michael, Mark,
Another opportunity for clarity missed.
As a ranger, what list of companions can I select my animal companion from?
As a ranger, if you choose an animal companion for your hunter’s bond, you may only select one of the animals listed on page 66 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook. There is no expanded companion list for rangers.
So many good suggestions for clarity like the one originally found here written by Derek Boobyer.
Put all together ...
As a ranger, what list of companions can I select my animal companion from?
As a ranger, if you choose an animal companion for your hunter’s bond, you may only select one of the animals listed on page 66 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook. No additional companions are legal in Pathfinder Society Organized Play for Rangers except when granted from another legal source.
Like I said, another opportunity lost to add clarity to an unnecessary, ongoing, discussion.
Hey, I bet it would only take the Tech department 2 minutes to find this thread, copy, paste and upload the change.
-Swiftbrook
Just My Thoughts
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These rules have been giving me major headaches lately and I'd love an official ruling before my duelist turns 5th level.
Hypothetical scenario:
Arcane Duelist Bard (ADB) turns 5th level.
ADB can receive a free adamantine masterwork weapon as part of the Arcane Bond class ability. (Total Cost: 0gp)
At 5th level, the ADB can spend the material cost of enchanting it to +1 as per the upgrading Arcane Bond items. (TC: 1000gp)
At 6th level, the ADB can further enchant the AB weapon to +2 (TC: 4000gp)
At 9th level, the ADB can further enchant the AB weapon to +3 (TC: 9000gp)
Queries:
-Is the scenario above correct?
-Is the masterwork adamantine weapon arcane bond legal?
-Do you need to purchase the special material masterwork weapon prior, or is it included as the class feature?
Thanks guys.
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Queries:
-Is the scenario above correct?
-Is the masterwork adamantine weapon arcane bond legal?
-Do you need to purchase the special material masterwork weapon prior, or is it included as the class feature?Thanks guys.
-This scenario is not completely accurate.
Weapons acquired at 1st level are not made of any special material.
- The rules do not state you can not have a bond with a adamantine weapon just that you can not start with one for free.
- You would need to purchase the weapon first and then bond with it.
The real issues come up when you ask when an Arcane Duelist reaches 5th level, can they form bond with a weapon they already own for free or do they need to take the new masterwork weapon granted with this ability.
If they have to preform the ritual to bond with a new object does their bard level count as their wizard level for determining the cost of the ritual?
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This is all that's written:
As I read the Wizard's Arcane Bond, they may take an existing special material weapon to become a bond when they lose their original mundane material item received for free at level 1. Otherwise, you cannot have a special material arcane bond weapon under any circumstances.
So it's looking like buy the special material item, then perform the ritual to create the bond. Not 100% sure though. Hrmn.
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I would think if you have to buy the one with the special material and then bond with it, you have to incorporate the cost of the special material (3000 for adamantine) into the cost of the magical item. Therefore, youd need enough Fame to be able to buy something that costs a bit over 7000 to make it a +2 or over 12000 to make it a +3.
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So by saying "If a caster selects a non-magical item as his arcane bond, and the player later wishes to upgrade it, he may do so for the cost value of the final item as listed in the item's statblock." , the FAQ means The Cost, not the Price of the item?
Aka turning a bonded amulet into an amulet of natural armor costs the player 1,000 gp, the cost entry from the item stat block, not the 2,000gp from the Price entry in the stat block?
And do all prerequisites for the bonded item need to be met? I.e. barkskin for an amulet of natural armor, caster level 8th for a Shock weapon etc. ?
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Aka turning a bonded amulet into an amulet of natural armor costs the player 1,000 gp, the cost entry from the item stat block, not the 2,000gp from the Price entry in the stat block?
Correct.
And do all prerequisites for the bonded item need to be met? I.e. barkskin for an amulet of natural armor, caster level 8th for a Shock weapon etc. ?
I'm honestly not sure on this one. It functions according to Core Rules by default, but the CRB isn't exactly clear. It says you can add enchantments, but doesn't say whether this is via use of the Craft skill or just as a "gimme". You get to skip having the feat (but still have to be high enough level to take the feat), but I'm not sure beyond that.
Actually, re-reading the FAQ, I even wonder if you're just buying a discounted upgrade, possibly as a slight deviation from core rules.
A little fuzzy there, I think.
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The rules on crafting are a bit complicated, but here's the basic rundown:
- There are only two absolute requirements that must be met for crafting a magical item: You must have the crafting feat and for potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion items you must have the requisite spell known, prepared, or have access through item/another person.
- Arcane Bond ability only waives the Crafting Feat requirement, so long as your level is high enough to quality for the crafting feat. I.E. you still must be 5th level to upgrade a masterwork short sword to +1, or you must be 3rd level to craft a amulet of natural armor +1.
- You still must have access to the spell for spell-trigger or spell-completion items for an arcane bond. This applies to all wands, all staves, and some other magical items.
- For every other requirement than the two above, you increase the DC to craft the item by 5. The base DC is 5+ the caster level of the item.
- Appropriate skills for crafting are shown on pages 550-553 of the Core Rulebook, however Spellcraft can always be used.
For example, if you were level 5 and wanted to craft your arcane bond into a +2 amulet of natural armor as a wizard. The base DC of this would be 10 (5+5). At level 5 you qualify for Craft Wondrous Item, so that requirement is met. However you do not have access to barkskin as a wizard and most likely won't have it available to craft with. So the DC to craft increases by 5. In addition your caster level is not 6, so the DC increases again by 5. The ending craft DC of the item would now be 20, (5 base + 5 CL + 10 requirements not met). As you can take 10 on this check, most wizards will have no issue with this DC, considering they most likely will have 5 ranks and hopefully at least 14 intelligence.
Finally, I'm pretty sure that a wizard using arcane bond must use the crafting rules to properly craft there arcane bond as the FAQ does not waive these rules... which is why I gave the run down above. Hope this helps!
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I guess I would have expected an actual reference to "using the appropriate Craft skill, as normal" in the class feature if that were the case, but I could be wrong.
Guess I might need to put some ranks in Craft when I hit 5th, then. Ranks that I'll never use again ever because it's PFS.
That feels... off.
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I guess I would have expected an actual reference to "using the appropriate Craft skill, as normal" in the class feature if that were the case, but I could be wrong.
Guess I might need to put some ranks in Craft when I hit 5th, then. Ranks that I'll never use again ever because it's PFS.
That feels... off.
I'm sure Kyle has put more research into this than I have done, but I agree with you, Jiggy. I do not believe the intent is for the wizard to actually need to craft their own magical item in this case, since it is disallowed in every other case.
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Makes a pretty big difference - if I need to actually craft it, then when I buy my INT headband I'll have it max out Craft. And then I'll need to wait a few levels and add a 4th level spell to my spellbook.
But if I don't need to do that, then I can max a skill I'd actually use, and also enchant my bonded item about 9 scenarios sooner.
So I'd really like to get this figured out. :P
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Okay, I got to looking at the Magic Item Creation rules, and it turns out this isn't that big of a deal. Since anyone with a bonded item is likely to be INT-based and have Spellcraft as a class skill, and that's the skill you use to craft that first enchantment, and the DC is a mere 5+CL of the item, and you can add 5 to that to skip a prereq (such as a spell), and you have to wait until your Fame score accommodates the item anyway...
Well, it just shouldn't be an issue. My character, for instance, only needs to hit a DC 17 to "craft" his Amulet of Spell Cunning, even without the appropriate spell. I could've hit that last level on a take 10, let alone by the time my Fame score will accommodate a 10,000gp item.
So no worries then, and probably only corner cases will need to even look into the details of this process.
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But are they required to make a check? Failing the check by 5 or more would result in a cursed bonded item. It's crazy to say there's no crafting, and then require normal crafting skills and rules to apply for bonded items, making characters max out their spellcraft skills so that they don't waste half the cost of the item.
If they fail the roll they're out thousands of gold, and trying again would make just buying the actual item more cost effective.
And for weapons, and certain amulets and items there's a minimum caster level requirement for the item that they've said is not a prerequisite that can be bypassed, it's a requirement, like having the spell for scrolls/potions. ( caster level 3x the natural armor bonus, caster level 3x the enhancement bonus of the weapon, etc )
My transmuter is 5th level caster with a bonded weapon, I've added +1 to the weapon. Now im looking to add frost or flaming, which lists a caster level 8th or 10th on it. I've got enough fame to afford it, I'm just not sure if that caster level is bypassable. The DC would be 5 + 8 for frost = 13, +5 for not having the minimum caster level = 18. I've got a +11 spellcraft. On a 1 or 2 I'll have a cursed weapon. If I have to make a check, there's a decent chance I'll waste the 3000gp to upgrade, if I dont have to make a check, then I can bypass non essential caster level requirements with impunity. I won't be able to have a +2 flaming weapon until 6th level, but given the gold I could add other enhancements early ( not game breaking because at 5th level I can already afford / have the fame for a +1 flaming or frost weapon , so I really don't see the point in making a crafting check: it's unnecessary rules, and could result in the odd cursed item in pc possession )
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Seraph, read my post above for my bullet points on Item Creation...
Caster Level is not an absolute requirement for Item Creation, only having the feat and having the spell available for spell-completion and spell-trigger items. Caster Level of the item is separate and different from the caster level of the creator, and it is quite possible for the creator to have a lower caster level than an item he crafts.
In addition taking 10 is only prohibited when you are "under duress" or the skill specifically says that you cannot, such as Use Magic Device. If you couldn't take 10 because of "consequences" then you could never take 10 on skills such as Acrobatics, Climb, Swim, Linguistics, etc. etc., as there are "consequences" to failing.
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Caster Level is not an absolute requirement for Item Creation, only having the feat and having the spell available for spell-completion and spell-trigger items. Caster Level of the item is separate and different from the caster level of the creator, and it is quite possible for the creator to have a lower caster level than an item he crafts.
Caster level is a requirement for magic weapon enhancement bonuses, amulets of natural armor, mighty fists, and armor enhancement bonuses. That's beyond the CL requirement listed. Otherwise a 5th level caster can make a +4 weapon. I'm pretty sure it's unclear in the books, but I've seen it around on some of the other rules threads for magic item creation.
Crobledo, cursed items are illegal for purchase, and item creation is generally banned, I dunno if accidentally creating cursed bonded objects are banned.
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Can we? There's a risk involved, the cursed item, the loss of a chunk of change. Seems to obligate not taking ten when there's a risk and consequences.
Risk does not prevent you from Taking 10. In fact, the T10 rules even state that the whole purpose of the mechanic is to remove risk.*
As Kyle noted, the only thing that prevents T10 is being distracted or threatened. Given that crafting already requires a calm workplace, and given that the time between scenarios is by definition devoid of adventures, it would be impossible for you to NOT be able to T10 on such a check as long as you're not doing it during the action of the scenario.
Basically, the only time you could craft anyway (in PFS at least) happens to be the very definition of the circumstances which the T10 mechanic was made for.
In most cases, taking 10 is purely a safety measure—you know (or expect) that an average roll will succeed but fear that a poor roll might fail, so you elect to settle for the average roll (a 10).
(Emphasis mine.)
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edited: I'd start another T10 thread again... but I'm not sure where it should go, and I don't really think it would help.
Perhaps a thread for:
"Common mistakes made by well meaning PFS GMs"
Everyone makes mistakes, but there are a few that become commonplace enough that they obtain an illusion of being correct (as people learn the game at the table more than from the books directly).
It might be useful for people to compile to help make a primer, etc.
-James
I always wanted to start a thread called something like 'All the rules you should have known and never did' where people would list all of the 'duh' kind of stuff they just learned about the game, whatever topic it might be on.
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I always wanted to start a thread called something like 'All the rules you should have known and never did' where people would list all of the 'duh' kind of stuff they just learned about the game, whatever topic it might be on.Perhaps a thread for:
"Common mistakes made by well meaning PFS GMs"
Everyone makes mistakes, but there are a few that become commonplace enough that they obtain an illusion of being correct (as people learn the game at the table more than from the books directly).
It might be useful for people to compile to help make a primer, etc.
-James
I would love such a thing. Unfortunately, it assumes that people are interested in not only being corrected, but discovering that some of their errors have been going on for years upon years, and on top of that, admitting that - due to being capable of being wrong - their own word is not the final authority, even at their own tables.
If I've learned anything from following rules discussions from beginning to end, it's that people willing to be wrong while wearing the GM hat are in the minority.
Take 10. Small cavaliers. Spellstrike + Spell Combat + arcane mark. Using two weapons without TWF penalties. Making adjustments to scenarios. I'm sorry, but our track record for being told we're doing something wrong as GMs is far from impressive.
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I would love such a thing. Unfortunately...If I've learned anything from following rules discussions from beginning to end, it's that people willing to be wrong while wearing the GM hat are in the minority.
Well at least it would clearly demarcate between ignorance and willful ignorance.
I just find it sad when I see some of the common misunderstandings from when 3e first came out still cling on to life a dozen years and two revisions later.
-James
Even so, and despite everything I just said, if one or more persons helped compile a list of topics to be covered, I have quite a library of developer commentary piling up and I'd be happy to summarize each issue (with links) to produce such a post for the benefit of those who do still see themselves as imperfect and open to guidance and correction.
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To bring the train back to the railroad...
Caster level is a requirement for magic weapon enhancement bonuses, amulets of natural armor, mighty fists, and armor enhancement bonuses. That's beyond the CL requirement listed.
You're mixing up two separate things. There are "absolute" requirements that simply cannot be replaced by adding 5 DC to the Craft check. Everything else is simply a "requirement" that can be replaced by adding 5 to the DC. This includes the "creator must have 3 caster levels for every bonus" or requirements such as "creator must be an elf."
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
Emphasis is mine on the quote. Note that this spells out the two times when you cannot bypass prerequisites. Every other prerequisite can be met by simply adding 5 to the DC.
Kyle,
I will have to hunt down the exact place I saw it, but Paizo devs have stated that the special level requirement for creating weapons and armor cannot be bypassed by taking a +5 to the roll. Which is why the Core Book says:
Creating magic armor has a special prerequisite: The creator’s caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the armor. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met.
"Must" meaning it cannot be bypassed.