RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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nosig, so far as I can tell -- and I might have missed something somewhere on the thread -- nobody, anywhere, has recommended a mandatory audit for PCs at a convention. Some people have suggested offering rewards, other people have suggested that just getting a clean bill of health, or a "you seem to have missed taking your favored class bonus for three levels" is reward enough.
I admit, the "pick a player character at random to audit" implies a certain level of coercing, at least in terms of public pressure. ("Gary, we've chosen you to receive a valuable boon and get your PC checked out." "Um, no thanks.") That's one of the reasons I don't like it.
Folks, there are certain errors that players make, in their favor, that are going to get caught eventually. In the last three months, I've noticed: cavaliers with dinosaur animal companions, characters who have bought items beyond their Fame limit, a whole team of beginning characters who had all chosen the Rich Parents trait, and that's just a sampling. Where's the better place for these players to find out about their error: at a review table, or in the middle of a combat?
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You do realize that could easily be more than 30,000 characters? And that is if we started this month. We will probably never have the time or manpower to do what is suggested here.
LOL I really do understand, that's why I said when you have time and manpower.
If you saw "Miricle on 34th st", I picture the Post Office delivering dozens of duffle bags filled with a mountain of character sheets!
30,000 sheets at 1/2 hour each is 15,000 hours or about 7 man years. Seven full time employees working 1 full year just to do audits is not realistic at all.
Local audits, done by volunteers, if presented as a positive thing stand a much better chance of being seen as a good thing by our players. If players see this "audit" as a witch hunt to find "cheaters" no one will want to participate.
I thought about the "auditors". First thought, was Paizo. Second thought, 3, 4 and 5 stared GMs are a great choice. but will they have the time also? And I know several people who know the rule insideout and help people with their characters but they don't GM.
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I really don't think Mandatory Audits at conventions is a good idea or really feasible. I do think voluntary ones are. The idea is to help players, especially new ones, find mistakes on their PC and in the process learn more about the rules, not make them feel like they may be a cheater.
For Gencon last year Lone Wolf had a few computers outside the PFS room for people to make their PCs on Herolabs, Herolabs is an excellent source for making PCs with errors at a minimum.
By posts I have seen by Lone Wolf they seem very willing to help support conventions and I think they could be helpful for conventions like Gencon but at a slightly larger scale.
I bet, though I can't be sure, that Lone Wolf would be willing to give some kind of incentive to players, like a Herolabs discount or free secondary license *I got a free secondary license at PaizoCon from them last year* to players who build their PC on Herolabs at the convention.
This would require them to have more PCs near the PFS games and more Lone Wolf volunteers at the systems to help people with the program. Of course this would also have the bonus of possibly selling more Herolabs for them.
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Please dear Golarion gods no. I don't want to audit characters if I don't feel I have to (although I do reserve the right to as a GM). There are only 2 times I think it's necessary to audit characters:
1. When you, as a GM, feel something is way wrong about a certain character. Asking at the table how they are getting such a bonus is good, and if you want to prod further ask to see their sheet after the session.
2. Prior to doing the retirement arc. It has been a standard practice here in Georgia to do that and has been very beneficial making sure the stage is set for that epic adventure. A grand total of 19 people have played through it, and there have been a good number of mistakes caught (nothing of the cheating sort, just incorrect adding or missing something from a stat block, etc.).
/As such, I've become particularly anal about how I track my characters.
//Bob knows.
///If anyone wants to make a copy of the spreadsheet I use for recording purchases / sells / etc. I will be more than happy to help.
////E-mail in profile.
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I'm just checking here to be sure that this is not Policy anywhere right?
I mean, mandantory PC audits are not in force at any PFS event, correct?
"Mandatory" is perhaps the wrong word. The only time a player needs to submit to an audit is if the GM/organizer asks for it. If you refuse, you put your character at risk of not being permitted to play in the event. For sake of argument, I will assume that the request is being done respectfully.
I think voluntary audits are a great idea and there is nothing saying that any player is restricted from doing it. In fact, I think every player should occasionally ask someone to review their character/s for errors, in favor of, or against the character.
IMO, the issue is one of "best case" and practicality. The additional manpower, available time/space, etc required to accommodate this at a convention just seems beyond the scope. Until someone can demonstrate an effective process how it can work, I will continue to call this a local-level process.
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I could go on for hours about the experience we had at SCARAB but I will close with this. We are going to certainly continue to offer this option - character error checking at SCARAB for many years to come. Hero Lab was an excellent fit for us, it is extremely expensive and this solution is not going to be feasible to use at many small conventions. However, I have mentioned to our WolfLair Rep that they need to have a convention license that will allow conventions to use the software on a short term 3 or 4 days.
I hope our experience at SCARAB is helpful to others.
I was at SCARAB and had a great time. Didn't know about this feature, but did have one of your GM's do a fast look (audit) of my Cavalier. He found a feat I was using for my wolf (animal companion) that was not legit. I'm very glad he found this and I could fix it. After getting home I found where he was right and my Herolab creation was wrong. Herolab offers many more animal companion feats than are legal for play.
If players in your territory send you a herolab version of their characters, would you review them for tweeks and errors?
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When a judge is told the table he's running he could download the players, print them out, audit them if he so wished, etc. He could also throw them in whichever program they use and see if it works sight unseen.
This could be done before the convention, and while the character might level during the convention it wouldn't be all that far from what the judge saw.
Said judge could upon seeing the party decide to brush up on either rules and/or flavor based upon whom they are judging (cleric of who? from where? etc). If the judge had never really looked at gunslingers, alchemists or whatever beforehand they could decide if they wanted to invest the time knowing they were about to judge one (much like they could decide to do so should a BBEG in their scenario is one).
It would seem like a reasonable resource, and it would have the added benefit of letting judges audit at their leisure possibly even contacting the player ahead of time if they have issues.
-James
James,
You're making the assumption here that judges know who is going to be sitting at their table ahead of time... while this is potentially feasible although highly unlikely at a small convention, it is completely improbable at a larger convention such as gencon.
If you went to gencon and looked at the PFS room and outlying area, you would understand that there is just simpley no way that pre-mustering could be done to the extent that is being suggested to make this happen.
There were a lot of times when the line for generic tickets was almost longer thant the line for pre-paid tickets.
All the judges knew before the convention was the scenario and the slot they were running it in -- we didn't know our table assignment until that specific slot.
I've seen you make a lot of, in your opinion, grand suggestions for what you think those of us that actually do this should do. Can you tell us what you have implemented and how you have accomplished everything you think should be done.. and this is in the current setting; what has been done in the past doesn't count. You are discussing PFS and that is what I'm am interested in.
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If players in your territory send you a herolab version of their characters, would you review them for tweeks and errors?
Yes - any players in my area may submit them for audit by the SCARAB PFS staff. Don't know what kind of turn around we can do on these but we'll give it a try until it becomes more than we can handle. They have to be in the HeroLab format.
My area is GA from Savannah to Augusta, all of SC, NC from Ashville to Charlotte. Beyond that area please smchmooze your VC, I am way tooo busy as it is :-)
Director of Brand Strategy
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But how feasible would it be for each player to have an entry for their character stored at Paizo? More than the little profile currently could do.
Not very feasible at all. If we were to do any form of organized auditing, it would need to be done by real people and not create any extra work for anyone at Paizo, as we're already full up to the brim on campaign management and development tasks that are actually pressing and ongoing issues. Same applies to the tech team. We're open to suggestions on how to make it work within the constraints of what we can realistically implement, but having things funneled through us or making significant changes to paizo.com are not within those constraints.
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Ah that's a pity, I had thought that it would be something that Paizo might wish to get behind as it would give them decent feedback on what was popular, etc and a better set of numbers from which to work.
Oh well,
James
Mark never said we would not like to get behind it. I will reemphasize that we don't have the infrastructure or the manpower in place to deal with this large of a project at the current time. Also as Mark said, we're open to suggestions on how to make it work within the constraints of what we can realistically implement. Feel free to email me with any suggestions you might have.
By the way, I am still waiting for an email from you in regard to the Pregenerated characters issue. I want to make sure I haven't missed the email if you sent it.
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And as to the manpower issue, that's why all I suggested that Paizo do would be able to host the char data that could be imported/exported to some of the programs being used out there. Figure most of the heavy lifting could be done by the people maintaining those programs as I'm sure it would give them business.
-James
And as Mark mentioned, and I am reiterating, our IT folks are neck deep in projects and tasks. They don't have time to take on another project at this time. Who is going to program the database to host the character data? Which 3rd party program do you choose, if we even wanted to use a 3rd party program? Being "sure" it would give them business isn't a very sound business approach.
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But how feasible would it be for each player to have an entry for their character stored at Paizo? More than the little profile currently could do.
I thought that was the whole point of the profiles?
That every player had to have a Paizo account, so that every PFS PC had to be entered there?If you're meaning there needs to be more space to record the chronicle info, then I get where you're coming from.
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I sense much passive aggression in this thread....
I noticed and it has nearly driven me away from this thread. It is interesting what twists this thread is taking. As I said at the start - the main aim should be TO HELP players.
In this regard - and to check how much time it takes - I started an audit of the PreGens. I took the new builds of the PreGens as I know there have been issues with the old ones (which for example had no traits).
The reason to look at the PreGens is to check if anything is missing as they get used by novice players and we don't want to disadvantage them. Overall they are pretty solid.
Timing:
It took around 50 minutes for all three levels (each). It would be good if someone independant could verify my results.
The only true issue with Valeros are the HP. He misses 2 HP at level 4 and 3 HP at level 5. The small difference in money on level 1 is rounding (I added it as I didn't find anything else). The Armor Check penalty at level 4 is debatable. He could 'leave' a few items at the Lodge and then all is okay.
Valeros 1: 150 GP total, 1 SP, 5 copper overspend
Valeros 4: approx. 6100 GP total, 44 HP not 42 (10 + 3*6 + 4*4), Climb, Ride and Swim use Amor Check -2 but Valeros is Medium Load (AC penalty -3)
Valeros 7: approx. 23000 GP total, 74 HP not 71 (10 + 6*6 + 7*4)
Merisiel suffers the same HP difference as Valeros. On level 1 it seems the values for Disable Device and Sleight of Hand are swapped (?). On level 4 her MW thieves tools bonus seems not added. On level 7 it seems both the MW thieves tools bonus as well as the Dex bonus from the belt isn't added.
Also Merisiel leveling up isn't strictly valid. She has the Weapon Finesse Feat at level 1 and at level 4 she gets the Weapon Finesse via a Rogue skill and the free feat is used otherwise. This is only possible via a rebuild. Not serious - but a bad example in a PreGen. I didn't check if it can be done legal.
Merisiel 1: 150 GP total, money - 5 SP more, Disable Device +8 not +7 (+4 Dex, 1 Rank, +3 Class), Sleight of hand +7 (not +8 - Armor Check penalty not applied)
Merisiel 4: approx 6000 GP total, 35 HP not 33 (8 + 3*5 + 4*3), Disable Device +15 (MW Thieves tools not included in stat)
Merisiel 7: approx. 24300 GP total, 59 HP not 56 (8 + 6*5 + 7*3), Disable Device +20 (MW Thieves tools and Belt of Dex+2 not included)
The total gear value is approx. right as far as I can tell at the higher levels.
And as auditor I also learned something. A buckler MW can be wielded by a non proficient character without penalty. I first wanted to flag the MW buckler at level 7 as invalid but realized it is RAW legal.
Please let me know in case I got anything wrong. For the HP: all characters take always +1 HP favoured class bonus for each level. So calculating the correct HP should be simple.
Kyra and Ezren when I have time
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Director of Brand Strategy
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Also Merisiel leveling up isn't strictly valid. She has the Weapon Finesse Feat at level 1 and at level 4 she gets the Weapon Finesse via a Rogue skill and the free feat is used otherwise. This is only possible via a rebuild. Not serious - but a bad example in a PreGen. I didn't check if it can be done legal.
Merisiel is not a PC and thus didn't level up. She has a 1st-level version and a 4th-level version that were each built independently.
In this regard - and to check how much time it takes - I started an audit of the PreGens. I took the new builds of the PreGens as I know there have been issues with the old ones (which for example had no traits).
Just a side note on this, but this was not an "issue", as pregens were intentionally made without traits. Among the requirements of the player, if they chose to keep the pregen and make it their own character, was to pick two traits.
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This is a long thread to dive into...
Here's what I do:
IF I have time before a slot starts AND I've had enough time to prepare and lay everything out AND the players show up early, I'll often casually ask to see their character sheet. Normally when I do this, I'm just looking at how they've built their character, what feats they've taken or any clues on how to tailor the adventure to make it more enjoyable for the player. (Mental note: this character has greater improved super bull rush, I could "accidentally" position one of the baddies in Act 3 near that ledge...) I don't tell the players what I'm looking for, and leave it up to them to feel nervous that I'm looking for cheating. My favorite example was at Gamicon last year when I asked to see an 11th level fighter's character sheet after he had already been bragging up his "incredible" attack bonus. After looking it over, I let him know that he was actually +1 higher than he had on his character sheet. :-)
Before the scenario starts, I let players know that I'll need their most recent chronicle at the end of the scenario. This chronicle needs to be fully filled out in order to receive their new chronicle. I stole this idea from Douglas Douglason and it works pretty well. Most players will check immediately if they have their chronicles and if they're filled out. If they're missing them, we can address that issue before getting into the story. If they aren't filled out all the way, they can work on them during the slot (perhaps mid-way through the slot when their character has been slain for the second time?). At the end of the scenario, I briefly glance at the chronicle and hand them their new one. IF I've got extra time, I may actually read some of it... ;-)
If I'm late, the players are late, the slot is short or there's another reason we're pressed for time, I don't do any of this crap. Let's get to the killing... er, I mean the story!
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And here are the audits for the Cleric and the Wizard
Kyra 1: 1 sp difference to 150 gp
Kyra 4: approx 6000 gp total, 2 HP missing
Kyra 7: approx. 12500 gp total (10K underspent items), 3 HP missing
Ezren 1: 1GP difference to 150 gp
Ezren 4: approx 6000 gp, 2 HP missing
Ezren 7: approx. 24600 gp, 3 HP missing, forgot Bullrush from Spellbook, No legal Wizard Bonus Feat, one normal Feat overspent
First of all I would like to say that Paizo deserves an apology from the many players here ranting how bad (in regard to not rules conform) the characters are. There actually isn't much wrong with them. They might be not everyones style - but that is why people generate their own characters.
And no - Ezren's spellbook is not illigally small in regard to the number of spells it contains. Something I read now a few times. Not counting cantrips he has 7 spells in level 1, 13(14) in level 4 and 19 in level 7. He never copied extra spells - but he gained +2 spells of the highest level whenever he leveled up.
If there is anything wrong with the PreGens that I feel should be changed, then it is that ALL 4th level characters miss 2HP and ALL 7th level characters miss 3 HP. I recalculated it a few times and always get the same systematic difference. So please someone shout out if it is me who is wrong.
Or please someone tell me I'm actually right. That would also help.
What else? (Minor niggles)
Kyra on level 7 seems to have 10K underspend compared to all other characters. Give her back the flaming scimitar (+6K) and maybe one other magic item of 4K. It's not game breaking - but unless she tithes half her money ...
Ezren - as far as I can tell has no single MetaMagic or otherwise valid Wizard Bonus Feat. He has Greater Spell Focus but at least in my printing of the book it doesn't qualify as a Wizard Bonus feat. Nothing serious as I would think it 'should' qualify.
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Director of Brand Strategy
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Thanks for looking those over, Thod. The missing hit points, for example, are a great find. Since the pregens were built using ou in-house NPC statblock generator, I never even noticed that it was calculating the average per level instead of the fixed amount we use in PFS. I imagine we'll revisit the pregens at some point in the future, though I don't know when, and when we do, I'll keep all these points in mind.
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Mark - having gone over them in detail allows me to much better understand and appreciate them. In my view they are some solid builds that try a little bit more to be middle of the road as specialists.
This makes them pretty decent in HP, AC and saves. And having done them I'm now better able as GM to help a player if he isn't aware of some skills the characters have.
But I guess they at PreGens - so there is a lot of prejudice against them. And off course some people - me included - are still more used to the original Pregens. I printed so many for the first convention I organized that I still can hand them out 2 years later.
Time to make a few new print-outs.
Regional Venture-Coordinator, Gulf
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Before the scenario starts, I let players know that I'll need their most recent chronicle at the end of the scenario. This chronicle needs to be fully filled out in order to receive their new chronicle. I stole this idea from Douglas Douglason and it works pretty well.
This is a great idea.
I suggest we start with strip searches, after we pass out the tequila based disinfectants. We must have order.
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So I decided to audit the PCs at my home game and it's pretty much exactly what other people have already mentioned, most of the mistakes were to the detriment of the PC.
Here are the mistakes I can remember (on a single PC!): Too few hit points, 1 less feat, too many ability points (21 point buy), no traits selected (forgot), completely didn't calculate his starting gold properly (messing all other calculations up). !!! Arrgghhhhh. :) I didn't even get around to double checking his gold calculations or talking about purchases.
It took me almost 1/2 hour to do, but during this 1/2 hour I spent time explaining the rules etc.
You know what? I seriously need a document, in short form, that describes the character creation process in PFS succinctly. And some basic game rules. Just so I don't have to explain the same questions again and again.
Wow, so although audits are really important, they're really time intensive as well. I see why people use programs like Hero Labs now, most people (even o/w intelligent people) just can't do it manually.
As for audits during a convention, it's definitely got to be optional, with some kind of reward/boon given for doing the audit. And obviously it has to be done by the right person, someone with a very strong understanding of the rules, a good teacher, and diplomatic. Which will be hard, since that person is probably a good GM.
Before the scenario starts, I let players know that I'll need their most recent chronicle at the end of the scenario. This chronicle needs to be fully filled out in order to receive their new chronicle. I stole this idea from Douglas Douglason and it works pretty well.
Really solid suggestions.
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Wow. This thread has been dead for almost 14 months. That's some pretty powerful mojo.
Without having read through the thread, I will post my observations from following v4.3 of the PFS Guide to "quickly look over" character and chronicle sheets.
I spend very little time on each PC. I check their point-buy and generally just look for any numbers that jump out at me. I check Chronicle sheets to make sure they have been completed.
About half the time, players have not filled in some or all of their sheets. From the personal info along the top to some or all numbers on the right column. In some rare cases, GM's have only signed the sheet. In a few more, the Event name, number, and/or date is missing.
Many are level 3+.
What I'm doing can't (and shouldn't) be called an Audit. I'm afraid of what I would find and how long it would take to actually audit characters.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Don, what do you do if the player doesn't have the Chronicle sheets, or they're all in a mess with a couple missing?
How do you handle it so that people don't feel like they're being accused of wrong-doing? (Even when their stuff is, you know, all in a mess with a couple missing?)
As you may know, I've been spending more time in recent months casting a glancing eye over these. It has really helped my GMing to notice that, say, two PCs in my "Blakros Matrimony" session have played through "Penumbral Accords".
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Don, what do you do if the player doesn't have the Chronicle sheets, or they're all in a mess with a couple missing?
How do you handle it so that people don't feel like they're being accused of wrong-doing? (Even when their stuff is, you know, all in a mess with a couple missing?)
As you may know, I've been spending more time in recent months casting a glancing eye over these. It has really helped my GMing to notice that, say, two PCs in my "Blakros Matrimony" session have played through "Penumbral Accords".
If there is something wrong/missing with a character's documentation AND I don't think it can be fixed before we finish the game, I ask them to use another character or a pregen.
In the past few months, since I've started, I've only had to do that once, when the player did not have any of his Chronicle sheets.
I'm not trying to bust players, just educate them.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I'm not trying to bust players, just educate them.
Right. Absolutely. Or just see what they're bringing to the table. (I write notes about the character on the Chronicle sheets. I'm assuming that successive GMs read those notes.) So, do you have any suggestions for how to get that across to players?
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I guess you could have other people at the table audit the person across from you. It is not perfect, but it does not cost the DM much time. Then the players get to know each other better. Then anythign wrong gets brought to the DM.
Honestly though people cheating will cheat. I watch at the table cheat rolls, change their to hit and damage modifiers, use items more than they should.
The work to remove them is worth more then it is to just deal with them. When I caught players cheating they made gaints stinks out of it. I saw a guy roll a 4. He must of thought I was not paying attention as I was rolling the same time as him. Then claim he got a 23. I said there is no way you have a 19 intiaitive modifier(I know I could have handled it discreetly but it caught me by surprise to). He made a scene right then and there. I know if I audited his character before hand and found how he cheated there it would be another scene.
Honest mistake from incorrect builds are even fewer. I just wanna come and have fun. When someone making a mistake wrecks someone elses fun that is when you call a break and fix things. IE super archer inquistor.
