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Well, he can take that feat that force his enemy to attack him.Shallow nothing is gonna sit around and take damage while it can't fight back i promise. it might move away it might grapple or bull rush but it won't just stand there and take it while hoping it rolls a 20.
i heard they errataed Antiagonize to force any hostile action the target would think of (not just melee attacks). it also requires intimidate ranks, or else Mr. turtle is going to fail. due to a charisma penalty, the difficulty in gaining skill points, and lack of resources to invest into intimidation.
Vital Strike (8/20/10)
Q: Spring Attack has a rather mushy description, but I am pretty sure you can combine it at least with a Vital Strike. I'd also like to have some clarification if you can also combine it with Cleave and Deadly Strike.A: (Errata 8/20/10) The spring attack feat has been changed in the 8/20/2010 Errata to be a Full-Round action. This prevents one from using Spring Attack and vital strike together.
Also it doesn't get anymore offical than this one man it out and out says you can't do it.
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I hope you're joking here.Because tanks don't just soak damage, they dish it out as well.Which neither Rangers, nor Barbarians, nor the almighty Paladin, have trouble doing. :P
I'm going to take you aside here as I'm rather enjoying watching ciretose and ashiel go at it atm.
"tanking" as you think of it does not exist in 3.5/pathfinder.
Why? Mainly because the enemies aren't AI scripts, there is no threat mechanic, there isn't anything keeping the other guy from simply turning away from you and running over to your wizard to show his stomach his newly sharpened +5 Colon Stabbing Spork.
Having a high AC is great for a martial character who is going to be mixing it up alot but it has to be balanced by a great deal of damage potential.
Why? Because you have to prove to the bad guy that you are a bigger threat to him then the wizard bending reality all around him, or the lighter armored cleric behind you, or the rampaging barbarian divebombing from his bat like an angry thundergod. Generally speaking, if you can kill that guy before he can consider runnign around you to deal with one of the others you ahve done your job.
Ultimately, the job of the "tank" in pathfinder is to make himself as bloody a nuisance as possible, he deals high damage, he covers a lot of ground, and he has just a high enough AC that most low rolls wont hit him but enough rolls will hit him that the enemy won't come to him last simply because it's more prudent to eliminate his squishier friends.
Give me a bit and I'll show you what a tank does in this capacity.
That only works once per opponet in 24 hours so once per guy.The first round the enemy miss, the second he will miss again, the third the enemy would try yo attack another character an the figther would use that feat.
in three round your archer and blaster wizard friends would kill that enemy.
Again, Is not my favorite build but it can be very useful in certain circumtances.
Thats fine if its one guy (which is a cake fight anyways due to action economy) now lets make it CR approapriate using 4-6 enemies and he might hold one guys attention while the other 3-5 go play with mister wizard. It's not 4E (of which i kinda liked the marking mechanic) enemies really don't have much of a reason to resign themselves to dying simply because they are fighting the Pcs.
Thats still high by mid levels even assuming low wisdom opponents.
Not to mention they have to understand you so its out if you don't speak their language(once again a downside to low int.)
Note...Mithral armor you craft yourself is 1/3rd the mithral cost.Yeah. It would only take about 218.75 weeks to craft mithral full plate with a +14 modifier. Go for it! :D
There is no PF way to get Death Ward on armor. Soulforge armor is 3.5.Incorrect. It's a 4th level spell. There are rules for adding 4th level spell effects with durations and caster level as magic item effects. It adds a flat gp cost based on duration, caster level, etc.
However, once again, this goes back to my commenting Fighters are hopeless in any game that you cannot have access to custom items. You can be slaughtered by a simple enervation-bombing. Welcome to dead. Population, you.
Actually it takes 10 seconds, some mithral, steel and leather = 1/3rd the cost, and a Fabricate spell.
And was it ever confirmed that mithral and adamantine ever added to the construction time? I was always under the impression the only thing they added to was the cost.
Secondly, he can get a masterwork forge set, 2 helpers, and double his speed since he can basically take 10 for 30 DC and hit the masterwork DC.
The game doesn't need to be played with custom gear, it is designed to be played with teamwork. Note the ranger has the same problem with death ward. So does everyone, unless they have the spell. It's why Restoration is in the game. So it's not a fighter problem, it's a Melee problem...except for maybe the Paladin.
A permanent or long-lasting death ward is a very expensive effect...30k in Age of Worms, as I recall, and Soulforge is a +5 effect. If he's enervating you, he's not killing you, which means he's likely dead in another round. A 1/day Mind Blank item clocked in at 50 or 75k, from Drow of the Underdark. Also a high level effect, so immaterial.
Also, your note about kobolds and alchemical fire is wrong 2 ways. Unless the ranger knows ahead of time about them, he's dead...he takes the same damage, and won't get the spell off once he's burning. If the party knows about the tactic, shooting one flask out of a kobold's hands detonates it, splashes the others, and likely causes a comedy of explosions.
Also, each alchemical flame is a separate incident of damage, so you only need Resist 5 to ignore them, and your max damage/round is 10d6, not 12d6.
==Aelryinth
Ashiel
whose fighter would you prefer to have in your party?
Shallowsouls selfish cowardly human turtle tank?
or my dual minded team player glaive wielding half elf?
Yours, of course. Yours has much better defenses overall, has a far greater battlefield presence. The reach weapon combined with fighter specializations add significant bonuses to your CMB, which can essentially shut down a number of enemies. Popping enlarge person allows you to provide soft cover to your whole party while dominating 20 ft. worth of battlefield space. Your Fighter is a competent archer, which allows you to punish enemies both in and out of melee, which allows you to more easily deal with creatures who are more mobile than you are.
Your Will save is actually pretty awesome, all things considered. You kept a number of skills, and your Perception is pretty solid. I noticed you took close weapon training, which is smart, as you are obviously taking advantage of the fact you can threaten at length with your polearm and up close with more personal weaponry.
Your damage is serious enough that things cannot stand getting pounded like that. You obviously realize that the size of the damage die isn't as important as the bonuses behind it. There difference betweene a d8 and a d10 is about 1 point in action, but your modifiers are impossible to ignore. The average damage for a Shallow's longsword was 15. The average damage from your weapon is 27. Almost twice as much per hit. When dealing with foes with high HD, you will be cutting up too much of their HP, too quickly, for them to not retreat or attempt to deal with you. Lower HP enemies will just die outright.
I'd also rather have your Fighter for purposes of team-play. Your Fighter is ideal for Fighter-Dokens, where the Wizard uses Telekinesis to chuck you into a horde of enemies for you to begin tearing them to pieces and locking them into one place. Even without Step-Up, your foes will have difficulty pulling away from you if they are at ground-zero, even being unable to fall back on a Withdraw action.
While I still feel that the Fighter would need certain considerations in the form of magic items to deal with effects that will basically 1-shot martials, this Fighter is far, far more versatile in combat, has a greater presence, and would be better at protecting your allies. I'd consider this to be a good Fighter.
If we could slap on a few counter-effects on your armor (such as being able to pop freedom to avoid getting CC'd, or being able to pop death ward when dealing with enemy spellcasters or mobs of weak undead (a shadow mob will kill most any martial demonstrated here in this thread, including the ranger, with little trouble, unless they can get death ward active).
Lumiere, you have displayed one of the best examples of a Fighter in this thread so far. I commend you. You at least make them appear relevant in combat, as your strategy obviously extends far beyond just whacking stuff with sticks. A+, if there ever was.
Actually it takes 10 seconds, some mithral, steel and leather = 1/3rd the cost, and a Fabricate spell.
Which helps the Fighter if there's a caster with a solid Craft check result and/or very high Intelligence. Since fabricate requires the caster to make the check, simply paying an NPC isn't necessarily a solid plan.
And was it ever confirmed that mithral and adamantine ever added to the construction time? I was always under the impression the only thing they added to was the cost.
The time to craft an item is based on the cost. It's result * DC in silver pieces per week. When your total progress equals the market price of the item, it is complete. So yeah, it technically takes about 4 years to craft a suit of mithral full plate by hand. It's kind of a b&*%+, and definitely is different than taking a few days off to craft all your general gear.
Secondly, he can get a masterwork forge set, 2 helpers, and double his speed since he can basically take 10 for 30 DC and hit the masterwork DC.
It would help if the helpers could take 10 on Aid Another, but assuming they always hit the DC 10 check (which you need helpers with at least a +9 to ensure that), that increases the speed by multiplying by a higher DC. So you'd get 30 * 30 silver pieces per week done. That's still about 2.4 years.
The game doesn't need to be played with custom gear, it is designed to be played with teamwork. Note the ranger has the same problem with death ward. So does everyone, unless they have the spell. It's why Restoration is in the game. So it's not a fighter problem, it's a Melee problem...except for maybe the Paladin.
Agreed. Rangers need access to Death Ward gear to remain viable at higher levels. However, they have access to Freedom of Movement, which is another critical one, which puts them higher up than the fighter every single time if they cannot get magic items that offer basic protections.
Restoration does not cure dead. And dead is where you can get really fast when you're getting enervation-bombed. At 13th level, a group of 10 7th level wizards is an average encounter. All of them can catch you by surprise, and open up the fight with enervation. That's between 10-40 negative levels coming your way as touch attacks, with a chance to critically hit for 2d4 negative levels. Congratulations, you're dead.
Walking through a crypt, and suddenly a horde of CR 3 shadows come after you? You'll take some of them down easily enough, but at 1d6 negative energy-based strength damage per incorporeal touch, you will die soon without death ward. That's just how it is.
I've never said you absolutely have to have X caster in your party to succeed. In fact, I even like it when my players want to do stuff like single-class challenges (such as when everyone plays the same class, or everyone plays martial, or everyone plays casters, or whatever). However, you're basically condemning martials to death if you will not accept that the option to have death ward and similar effects put on your gear - which is legal by the rules I might add.
A permanent or long-lasting death ward is a very expensive effect...30k in Age of Worms, as I recall, and Soulforge is a +5 effect. If he's enervating you, he's not killing you, which means he's likely dead in another round. A 1/day Mind Blank item clocked in at 50 or 75k, from Drow of the Underdark. Also a high level effect, so immaterial.
Expensive, but worth it. Also, continuous is good if you want protection from ambushes, but for general purposes x/day or x rounds/day is usually enough to start with, and work your way up to continual as it becomes reasonable to do so.
Also, your note about kobolds and alchemical fire is wrong 2 ways. Unless the ranger knows ahead of time about them, he's dead...he takes the same damage, and won't get the spell off once he's burning. If...
Yes, but at least he has an option for it. It's better to have it (or in this case cast it) and not need it, than need it and not have it. Resist energy lasts a long time (10 min/level), which is generally pretty good in an adventuring scenario. It's long term enough that it's considered a valid buff for DPR competitions, if I recall correctly.
It also has problem solving applications. It can allow you to survive basic contact with lava (anything short of total immersion), walk through mundane fires, deal with hot rooms, survive stuff like elementals and breath weapons more effectively, and so forth.
Also, your note about kobolds and alchemical fire is wrong 2 ways. Unless the ranger knows ahead of time about them, he's dead...he takes the same damage, and won't get the spell off once he's burning. If the party knows about the tactic, shooting one flask out of a kobold's hands detonates it, splashes the others, and likely causes a comedy of explosions.
...
I give up.
@Ashiel
thank you. i studied your posts for quite a while on these boards. and we have so much in common. it may not be human, but i think it's better than a human in this case. the only thing i used that wasn't published in the core rulebook was the half elf's dual minded alternate racial.
Indeed. It was a example of good strategy and an equally nice build. Props. ^-^
Also, I feel kind of cool now. Studied my posts? I hope they were entertaining! You've made my day. *^-^*
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@Ashiel
thank you. i studied your posts for quite a while on these boards. and we have so much in common. it may not be human, but i think it's better than a human in this case. the only thing i used that wasn't published in the core rulebook was the half elf's dual minded alternate racial.
Indeed. It was a example of good strategy and an equally nice build. Props. ^-^
Also, I feel kind of cool now. Studied my posts? I hope they were entertaining! You've made my day. *^-^*
and you have made mine.
Dwarf (Fighter)Brawler 6
HP:49 (assuming average dice and favored class bonuses.)
Built on 15 pointbuy
Str:18 +4
Dex:13 +1
Con:12 +1
Int:13 +1
Wis:12 +1
Cha:5 -3
Feats:
1 Combat Expertise
1 Power Attack
3 Combat Reflexes
4 Imp Reposition
5 Steel Soul
6 Lunge
Traits:
Glory of Old
Armor Expert
Features:
Close Control +2
Close Combatant
Skills:
Climb:+13-4 ACP = +9
Acrobatics: +7-4ACP = +3
Survival:+10
AC: 25 or 23 (without buckler) (+10 Armor, +2 Shield, +1 Dex)
CMD: 21 (23 against bull rush reposition and drag maneuvers)
Saves: F:8 R:5 W:5 (+5 against spells, +3 against poison)
Attacks: MW Bardiche +10/+5 1d10+6 or +1 Cestus +12/+7 1d4+8
Power Attacking: Bardich +8/+5 1d10+12 or Cestus +10/+5 1d4+12
CMB: +10 (+14 when repositioning, +12 when bull rushing or dragging)
Gear: +1 Full Plate, +1 Buckler Cloak of Resistance, +2,+1 Cestus , MW Bardiche, Ring of Protection +1, Amulet of Natural Armor +1
1677gp left over for other expenses. I tend to grab ranged weapons like a strength rate bow or barring that a javelin or three.
@Luminere. Oh I know I'm just throwing out an example that's lower level.
I know I didn't stick to core. You can get away without using a lot of this rather easily if you have to stick to it using trip instead of reposition and iron will versus steel soul. But I like it for what it does and I'm sticking to my cestus here.
Now what I like about this particular build is that he can pretty much go anywhere from where he is now. He can focus on using reposition to plop people outside of his reach so they can provoke more AoO's or be easy targets for the archers or alternatively suck them in so they can take a massive cestus pounding. He can use lunge to play it safe if needed and he's still walking around with a respectable AC.
He's a different "tank" than luminere's elf but works along the same lines. He's a big bloody nuisance that's a stout little black hole in which nothing escapes once they get near him. Eventually he can look at things like step up for feats and even more hilariously he'll be looking at Menacing stance and No Escape to make getting away from him even more dangerous.
Ultimately I think the lesson to take from this is that AC means diddly squat if you can't make the other guy regret ever coming near you. Being a big metal box wielding a stick just makes me go around you. Being a big metal box that sucks you inside holds you down and pummels you to death is a bit trickier to deal with. Tanks dont need a high AC to make the other guy miss, they need it to make the other guy miss while they pound the living daylights out of them.
I went with dwarf because I don't think they get enough love for what they do. Between Steel Soul, Hardy and Glory of Old I'm looking at having ridiculously good saves without ever taking or perhaps ever needing Iron Will and co. I wasn't crazy on skills here though honestly if I wanted them I could get them. And from this point I can afford to toss points in other places. And honestly for the purposes of this build they're not as important.
And you know whats funny? I can probably build something eerily similar with a ranger. You know since he's "squishy".
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@Tark
i love your idea too. it has a decent offense for it's level, but weapon training is an important class feature i wouldn't reccomend replacing. it opens access to gloves of dueling.
i don't mean to be anal, but i used a half-elf, not a full elf. the whole reason i chose a half elf was to get the will save bonus of dual minded and milk the human heritage strength bonus. it also used the elite array (or else i would have lowered CHA to 7 and raised int to 12)
here is how i would have done Dorftanks attributes
STR 15 (16 at level 4)
Dex 14
Con 15 (16 at level 8)
Int 12
Wis 14
Cha 5
this would make you less squishy, and you get access to all sorts of other bonuses to your damage. and considering the defenses of a dwarf, you can afford a slightly lower strength.
i don't mean to be anal, but i used a half-elf, not a full elf.
You're all pointy eared sissy's from down here lass.
Besides. While gloves of dueling are great, I already sort of get it with close combatant since it's a bigger boost to damage the biggest downside is that the bardiche doesn't benefit. But I only really have it to extend my reach and drag people over into nut punching range. The trade off is that I make caster's life harder who get close, and in the end I can have an even higher effective AC in melee than mr. tower shield with menacing stance. Apparently a tower shield held close is nothing compared to a buckler crammed down the other guys throat.
@
STR 15 (16 at level 4)
Dex 14
Con 15 (16 at level 8)
Int 12
Wis 14
Cha 5this would make you less squishy, and you get access to all sorts of other bonuses to your damage. and considering the defenses of a dwarf, you can afford a slightly lower strength.
And then the dorf's player got smacked upside the head by the gm for not qualifying for combat expertise. :P
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And then the dorf's player got smacked upside the head by the gm for not qualifying for combat expertise. :P@
STR 15 (16 at level 4)
Dex 14
Con 15 (16 at level 8)
Int 12
Wis 14
Cha 5this would make you less squishy, and you get access to all sorts of other bonuses to your damage. and considering the defenses of a dwarf, you can afford a slightly lower strength.
forgot about that
How about int 13 (14 at level 8) and Con 14? i was trying to relieve a bit of the "squishiness", improve your initial number of oppurtunity attacks, and improve your will saves.
That would work if one wanted to be slightly less offensive. It kills the glaive attacks a bit but as I said it only really matters to either play it safe and play keep away or to drag people in and put the boot in.
Ashiel:
You are still surpassing your Character Wealth here.
Crafting Items doesn't make Character Wealth go away.It actually does according to the FAQ.
I don't agree with that ruling, but it is official and therefore valid for these discussions.
So any character for compairson can now buy any item for 45% its baseprice because the party wizard surely has most crafting feats and the trait?
Thats so stupid. Seriously. Every DM out there balances treasure to make everyone get close to the same. Everything else is just ridiculous.
We want to compare classes here! So how should we compare this if we don't stick to the Character Wealth?
Its just that Ashiel wants to be right so bad so he cheeses around with item crafting.
This discussion is really ridiculous because its full of strawman or look I win arguments.
.
.
.
.
And still you cannot have a +1 Intelligence or Strength Item.
Unless your Gm approves it.
Actually a Pack Lord with vermin companion could take a pair of Dire Rats. Now true they have to conspire with you to take over the world but they still are conspiring to take over the world.
As to +1 stat items the cost is clearly defined and well within basic custom item creation. Its not even some odd corner case where the cost requires checking several pages its a flat square the bonus and multiply by 1000
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Let's look at some of the strawmen scenarios quickly, and ask "Is a fighter worse off?"
"At 13th level, a group of 10 7th level wizards is an average encounter. All of them can catch you by surprise, and open up the fight with enervation. That's between 10-40 negative levels coming your way as touch attacks, with a chance to critically hit for 2d4 negative levels. Congratulations, you're dead."
First, you assume that you are within close range of 7 wizards who despite not having perception as a class skill all beat you on initiative and all have enervation memorized as their one 4th level spell. And then all 7 of them cast it on a single player in the group.
Second, what class is surviving this strawman? Maybe the monk since they will have good touch AC and just got spell resistance...but that is it. So this scenario proves what exactly?
Walking through a crypt, and suddenly a horde of CR 3 shadows come after you? You'll take some of them down easily enough, but at 1d6 negative energy-based strength damage per incorporeal touch, you will die soon without death ward. That's just how it is.
Lets look at death ward. It is minutes per level, so "suddenly" it isn't going to help you in the first round, as you won't have it up unless you got lucky.
But is the fighter worse off than other martial classes? Hell is he worse off than a wizard or sorcerer who have far less strength to lose?
You keep creating these ridiculous what if scenarios to fit your argument, only they fit all arguments because they are ridiculous scenarios.
It's like saying "Superman is weak because he dies if you stab him through the heart with kryptonite". A true statement, but when you think about it...doesn't everyone die when you stab them through the heart with anything?
Not Vampires (unless its a stake), the Frankenstein monster, Wolverine, Deadpool,Chuck norris. Yeah i know I'm not helping but just saying superman sucks since all these guys could take a kryptonite sword to the heart....Possibly the Hulk.
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Not Vampires (unless its a stake), the Frankenstein monster, Wolverine, Deadpool,Chuck norris. Yeah i know I'm not helping but just saying superman sucks since all these guys could take a kryptonite sword to the heart....Possibly the Hulk.
Yes, but if it kills %99 of the classes, it isn't a relevant point. It would be like me taking the enervation scenario above and saying "All classes but monk suck since they can't deal with the random horde of enervation wizards.
You win this round........
As to +1 stat items the cost is clearly defined and well within basic custom item creation. Its not even some odd corner case where the cost requires checking several pages its a flat square the bonus and multiply by 1000
Making a continuous spell 1st level? Clearly defined with CLxSLx2000gp.
Now where did I put my "Boots of Expeditious Retreat" which give me +30ft movement and cost 2.000 gp?
Or my Ring of Improved Invisibility 56.000 gp?
Stop making those ridiculous arguments which, as we all know (even you), are worth nothing.
The creation area also tell you to compare to similar items to check you cost the formula for stat bonuses is right in line.
Also both of those are spells with rounds in minutes so they are doubled for 72,000 for the ring and 4000 for the boots. So your ring compares to a 20,000 gold item so its in line on cost for being a higher level spell effect. Your boots are 1000 less than springing and striding but it grants a +5 acrobatic which is 2500 and thats probably the half again costed part so 3750 is from that so for 10ft of speed thats 1250 so for 30 feet 4000 seems about right.
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The creation area also tell you to compare to similar items to check you cost the formula for stat bonuses is right in line.
Also both of those are spells with rounds in minutes so they are doubled for 72,000 for the ring and 4000 for the boots. So your ring compares to a 20,000 gold item so its in line on cost for being a higher level spell effect. Your boots are 1000 less than springing and striding but it grants a +5 acrobatic which is 2500 and thats probably the half again costed part so 3750 is from that so for 10ft of speed thats 1250 so for 30 feet 4000 seems about right.
The basic point is if you have to go off book to make a case, you probably aren't defending a very strong position.
Analogies are even worse than statistics for manipulation. And there are reasons the Devs decided not to include +1 wearable ability score items in the game.
If you can't work within the framework, it doesn't work.
Actually since vanish is a 1st level spell...:)
Or my Ring of Improved Invisibility 56.000 gp?
But vanish would end if you attack.
The creation area also tell you to compare to similar items to check you cost the formula for stat bonuses is right in line.
Also both of those are spells with rounds in minutes so they are doubled for 72,000 for the ring and 4000 for the boots. So your ring compares to a 20,000 gold item so its in line on cost for being a higher level spell effect. Your boots are 1000 less than springing and striding but it grants a +5 acrobatic which is 2500 and thats probably the half again costed part so 3750 is from that so for 10ft of speed thats 1250 so for 30 feet 4000 seems about right.
Are you serious?
BoS&S only give +5 on jump checks. And even if you count that as a full +5 skillitem its still 3000 for the boots and +10ft.You are right with the pricing and the item would cost me 4.000 gp. So with 1 feat and 1 trait I would cut that cost down to 1800gp.
I would end up with 60ft movement speed which gives me a +12 to jump and you would end up with 40ft and +9 to jump. While I pay 4000gp and you pay 5500gp.
All fine and well inside the rules!
And just look at my new Ring of Shield. +4 Shield AC for 4000 gp.
Makes your +2 Ring of Force Shield for 8500gp look really crappy, huh? And mine even works as an undepletable Brooch of Shielding!
THW Fighters just got much better!
So what, just reactivate it...obviously I'm being silly, we agree on the underlying point.Actually since vanish is a 1st level spell...:)
Or my Ring of Improved Invisibility 56.000 gp?
But vanish would end if you attack.
Of course yours would be a must have item for everyone out of combat or for initiating combat. You would wear it all day and it would give you a huge advantage.
Making an ambush? +40 on stealthMoving around? +20 on stealth
And while you are traveling you are nearly unattackable unless someone has see invisibility or such.
Infiltration missions just got so much easier.
Once again you missed the part about comparing you show that that item is far under cost. Also thanks i forgot about acrobatics getting a boost from higher speed so your right the boots are also underpriced.
The system does tend to fall apart when you look at spell effects and making them continuos versus use activated(which i would argue if the rules are rewritten all spell in a cans need to be).
However when looking at flat bonus items you rarely run into corner cases like these which is why those items are the ones most GMs fail to find fault in.
For instance ability scores skill bonuses AC bonuses are all easy to figure without heavy math or checking and rechecking other items. Also if +x items of differing numbers weren't meant to be made/are some how game breaking issues why even present the rules for making them?
Once again you missed the part about comparing you show that that item is far under cost. Also thanks i forgot about acrobatics getting a boost from higher speed so your right the boots are also underpriced.
The system does tend to fall apart when you look at spell effects and making them continuos versus use activated(which i would argue if the rules are rewritten all spell in a cans need to be).
However when looking at flat bonus items you rarely run into corner cases like these which is why those items are the ones most GMs fail to find fault in.
For instance ability scores skill bonuses AC bonuses are all easy to figure without heavy math or checking and rechecking other items. Also if +x items of differing numbers weren't meant to be made/are some how game breaking issues why even present the rules for making them?
Ok so again for the slower of us for easy comparison:
Boots of Expeditious Retreat
60ft movement
+12 on Jump Checks
4000gp
Boots of Striding and Springing
40ft movement
+9 on jump checks (AND ON NOTHING ELSE READ THE ENTRY OF THE BOOTS AGAIN!!!111)
5500gp
Now for the really really slow of us without the springing part:
Boots of Expeditious Retreat
60ft movement
+12 on Jump Checks
4000gp
Boots of Striding and Springing
40ft movement
+4 on jump checks (ASSUMING WRONGLY THAT +5 ON A CHECK IS EQUAL TO +5 ON A WHOLE SKILL!!!111)
3000gp
.
.
.
Ring of Vanish vs Ring of Invisibility vs Ring of Invisibility
Ring of Vanish
Invisible all the time until attacking someone
8000gp
Ring of Invisibility
Invisible all the time until attacking someone
24000gp
Ring of Invisibility (CRB)
3 mins of invisibility on use activation
20000gp
.
.
.
Ring of Shield vs Ring of Force Shield
Ring of Shield
+4 Shield Bonus to AC and absorbs all magic missiles
4000gp
Ring of Force Shield
+2 Shield bonus to AC
8500gp
Can you now see the problem?
If not, I fear, all hope is lost.
And the guidenelines are in both for explanation how prices come to be and as a guideline for DMs and Players to design new items.
Its not meant to be taken as RAW and creating Strong Brokenation Aura Items. And I think I pointed that one out well enough for you to understand.
And using a chart for your purposes and saying its RAW but stating that I cannot use the same chart for my purposes because the chart is broken and not RAW is somewhat... STRANGE
I know how to roleplay a int 7 :) I don't like it. It's a good characterization, for an NPC, however :PYou know a way to roleplay 7 Intelligence, but ability scores are not hard and fast. Ability scores are not universally the same. Otherwise, the only way to roleplay a 19 Charisma would be to act like a Hag, since Hags (of the Night variety specifically) have 19 Charisma.
Which is one of the advantage of Darkvision...It is one of the advantages, and would work pretty well if your entire party had darkvision. However, just going with the standard races for a moment, that's 3 (half-orcs, gnomes, and dwarfs) out of 7 (dwarfs, elves, half-elves, humans, half-orcs, halflings, and gnomes) that have it; so going without a light source usually isn't an option unless everyone is prepared for it, and being blind is usually worse than risking the loss of surprise.
If your entire party has darkvision, you only have to worry about things outside of your sight range, such as drow, who can see you fine from 120 ft. away. Or being in dim light, instead of darkness, where your darkvision is completely useless. In general, having a decent light source is often a good deal. A sunrod is cheap and provides 60 ft. of bright light and 120 ft. of dim light, which is pretty super (especially for elves, half-elves, and so forth).
I think Darkvision is great, but it's not great enough to warrant splitting up from your party, possibly leaving their ability to perceive you, and risk getting killed and placing your party in a worse situation (as now you would be dead, they would be down a party member, and the bad guys know something is up).
Now you would be over. If your Fighter has between 1-8 Int, you would...If we all agree on Human, let's do human.
My Ability scores are as I posted most recently, throw another skill my way so that I am now up to 4 per level (two figher, one favored class, one human) and let's make that extra feat iron will.
This is just a non answer. First, I don't like int as a dumb stat. If you like it, good for you. Second, since I didn't make an example, you cannot say if I know one or more way to play it. Third, you hag example is just a syllogism. Fourth, what INT means is very clear. What I see is a videogame like build, often players put int as dumb stat and think that the only drawback is less skill points. Since INT is logical reasoning i prefer to have it at least average. With int 7 you lose too many roleplay situations.
Wasn't this supposed to be core only gravity bow and lead blades are from the APG. Are we allowing custom items or sticking to the items presented in the core rulebook? What feats if any are not allowed I assume leadership is out but we are allowing crafting? I personally would prefer to just not allow crafting, If one person in the party can craft then the entire party can benefit from reduced item prices. Bob wanted the builds to be functional from the 1st level so unlike a character created at a higher level not all of the wealth will be liquid, wealth in the form of items are only half as useful for crafting purposes and we have no idea as to what sort of downtime the character will have. I would like Bob to clarify his position on some of these issues before continuing since the point of a comparison is defeated if people are working under different assumptions.
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Wasn't this supposed to be core only gravity bow and lead blades are from the APG. Are we allowing custom items or sticking to the items presented in the core rulebook? What feats if any are not allowed I assume leadership is out but we are allowing crafting? I personally would prefer to just not allow crafting, If one person in the party can craft then the entire party can benefit from reduced item prices. Bob wanted the builds to be functional from the 1st level so unlike a character created at a higher level not all of the wealth will be liquid, wealth in the form of items are only half as useful for crafting purposes and we have no idea as to what sort of downtime the character will have. I would like Bob to clarify his position on some of these issues before continuing since the point of a comparison is defeated if people are working under different assumptions.
Welcome to the ever moving goatposts of arguing with some people on here.
I assume the rules will keep changing as it becomes more clear that fighters are fairly flexible...which goes to prove my point so I am rolling with it.
Thats the spirit of Schroedinger Characters.
If you can't beat them regularly just keep digging in the infinite ammount of splatbooks until you find something borked and apply it ;)
And the best about those characters is that noone would ever play them because they would be ineffective in most situations or just plain badly build.
I mean which Ranger takes the CWI feat? Seriously? Let your Wizard do it. He can at least build some decent items at decent levels with it because he has a good Spellcaster Level Progression and a good chunk of pluses on his Spellcraft. And he would craft for the Ranger and the Fighter in PF as well because it doesn't cost any XP anymore so he doesn't lose anything.
You'll note that I've not once assumed custom items or core only.
Fighters are fairly flexible. Unfortunately they're fairly flexible at fighting. Rather than the rest of the game. For things like that you have to compromise this flexibility and his overall dominanace in the steady pain game to gain that flexibility.
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You'll note that I've not once assumed custom items or core only.
Fighters are fairly flexible. Unfortunately they're fairly flexible at fighting. Rather than the rest of the game. For things like that you have to compromise this flexibility and his overall dominanace in the steady pain game to gain that flexibility.
They've already been shown to be flexible out of combat as well as in combat. Now if your standards are above the norm then that becomes a personal problem and not a class problem.
There is such a thing as poor design and then there is someone having their standards too high.
So what makes a character flexible?
The ability to cheese around and double his character wealth?
Or just right the Ability to to be a main chaster and finding all the cheesy spells and teleporting around?
Both not gonna happen, so look no further.
But a fighter can easily have enough skillpoints and skill foci to keep up on most fields of "non combat adventuring".
As well he gets the ability to be no stone to dragged with the party in his heavy armour. He can move as fast as anyone and with a little +1 bonus on his armour he can even keep it on at all times. Not to mention that it will be down to a little -3 penalty to all those skills at level 7.
Your common cleric will be by far worse in most field than the fighter. 2+int skillpoints, full ACP, not as much strength and dex...
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What's the point in setting standards when trying to present the viability of a class? All rules should be used but if we are going to start setting specific standards then it needs to be agreed that the fighter is more than what some of you have been trying to claim.
Now what are we going to do? Allow custom items and I will build you a sick sick fighter.